Trade KRod, Get MCab
First of all, most people are down on Krod these days. I am one of those. After the Rivera 3/45 and Cordero 4/46 signings, Krod is going to demand too much money for a closer. He'll probably be looking for 15+ over 4-5 years or more. It's obvious Krod cares about the money, because he walked out of an extension with us after the Rivera signing and has repeatedly said he loves pitching in Yankee Stadium. Shields and Speier are capable of closing, and we can find another quality middle relief pitcher.
So trade Krod to a 3rd team who then trades one or two stud prospect/players to FLA. This allows us to trade a small piece or two to FLA without losing HK or BWood, or maybe even Adenhart. Besides, FLA doesn't really need a 2B.
Then we have MCab, HK, and Wood, while only losing Krod, who I believe is very replaceable, as much as I hate to see him go.
This Fan-Post is authored by an independent fan. Tell us what you think and how you feel.
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48 comments
Comments
You know what...
Do this, sign Percy to be a 7th inning guy if he'll take it, and let Shields and Speier fight for the closers role.
by 101halo on Nov 25, 2007 11:43 AM PST reply actions 0 recs
We could throw in HGH with K-Rod
by acuda27 on Nov 25, 2007 11:47 AM PST reply actions 0 recs
I guess I'm one of the few
by Los Angeles de Anaheim on Nov 25, 2007 11:49 AM PST up reply actions 0 recs
I'm with you
by DChalofan on Nov 25, 2007 5:19 PM PST up reply actions 0 recs
We'd probably have to throw in prospects
by 101halo on Nov 25, 2007 11:49 AM PST up reply actions 0 recs
Me too
You'd hate to move Escobar to closer, but he's proven he can dominate there if we need him in an emergency. This is why the Garland pickup was so key.
by thehasegawaexpress on Nov 25, 2007 11:50 AM PST reply actions 0 recs
Doesn't GMJ
by thehasegawaexpress on Nov 25, 2007 11:52 AM PST up reply actions 0 recs
Rev, can we have a training class on
by 101halo on Nov 25, 2007 11:53 AM PST reply actions 0 recs
Good idea?
So used to it being mis-used, I can't tell... ha
by 101halo on Nov 25, 2007 12:01 PM PST up reply actions 0 recs
not going to happen
we'd be a weaker team. this trade subtracts talent from the major league squad. the cabrera deal, with the exception of howie, subtracts minor league talent. Im not saying i prefer one over the other, but the hunter signing pretty much signals that this team wants to win NOW.
by ihearhowie2.0 on Nov 25, 2007 11:57 AM PST reply actions 0 recs
Losing HK is a bigger problem than losing Krod
Besides, you'll have to get a new screen name if we don't lose Krod, because Howie won't be sticking around.
by Los Angeles de Anaheim on Nov 25, 2007 12:02 PM PST up reply actions 0 recs
um
this isnt fantasy baseball where terrible pitchers like joe borowski are good because they rack up saves. Im all for keeping howie in the lineup, but this idea doesnt make sense. We just gave up the highest per-year contract to a 32 year old outfielder. What makes you think we'll suddenly be penny pinching with a franchise closer?
by ihearhowie2.0 on Nov 25, 2007 12:07 PM PST up reply actions 0 recs
Answer:
Because we just gave up the highest per-year contract to a 32 year old outfielder.
by 101halo on Nov 25, 2007 12:10 PM PST up reply actions 0 recs
You misunderstand me
I'd love to keep both of them, but that's very unrealistic. The argument hear is that Howie is a more-likely long-term option, so we should try and keep him.
Disagree with my evaluation of Krod v. Howie, but at least try to understand the reality. We won't be keeping both, and so I'd prefer to save Howie and give up Krod.
by Los Angeles de Anaheim on Nov 25, 2007 12:13 PM PST up reply actions 0 recs
Please elaborate on the K-Rod deal a little more
by matt92130 on Nov 25, 2007 1:08 PM PST up reply actions 0 recs
Krod will either bail somewhere
Even if we are able to extend him, I'm saying it'd be more valuable to keep HK and package Krod in a 3-way trade for Cabrera. The price for Krod is just not worth it when we could use him to keep Howie and make our offense that much better.
by Los Angeles de Anaheim on Nov 25, 2007 1:14 PM PST up reply actions 0 recs
is your name francisco?
or maybe your name is arte moreno?
you seem to have a ton of insight on what the teams plans for spending money are.
im not saying that the possibility for him to leave isnt there. because it is. it definitely is. but to just write off the idea of holding on to him this year, a year we're clearly shooting for a championship is just stupid.
bullpen depth is absolutely crucial to succeed in the playoffs and just in general. What if speier disappears again for months? Or shields is completely useless again? That trade would look incredibly shortsighted and dumb given the money and prospects wed be spending to compete for a title.
arte isnt raising payroll just for the hell of it. its to win. frankie helps this team seal victories.
by ihearhowie2.0 on Nov 25, 2007 4:29 PM PST up reply actions 0 recs
Letting Howie get away in a trade
Frankie is a guy I hate to see let go, and I agree would be hard to replace. But we have a lot of pitching depth, and I'd rather see him go in a trade that brings us MCab while still keeping Howie. We need more offense, and selling out Howie and others for MCab is not going to get us there.
by Los Angeles de Anaheim on Nov 25, 2007 4:40 PM PST up reply actions 0 recs
How many of our castoffs are now closing
by K3YEROUT on Nov 25, 2007 9:26 PM PST up reply actions 0 recs
Its a Business
As an Angel fan you can not tell me you feel like the game is over when KRod enters in a 1 run ball game. I know how I feel when someone like a Jonathan Papelbon ......GAME OVER!
Money will be better spent acquiring some prospects/player for KRod. Like I said I have voiced the reasons and thoughts about this a few times so I am not going to repeat myself. Just glad that there is some others that are starting to see the light.
by Angel Aviator on Nov 25, 2007 12:38 PM PST reply actions 0 recs
Papelbon/K-Rod
by Caseys Kiss of Death on Nov 25, 2007 12:45 PM PST up reply actions 0 recs
I agree
by agermer on Nov 25, 2007 1:25 PM PST up reply actions 0 recs
Fact Stat
Enters Red Sox game score 4-1 with bases loaded 1 out:
Wild Pitch in 1 run ; DBL Ortiz 2 runs score ; Manny DBL 1 run
GAME TIED BLOWN SAVE
Making millions to not give up 3 runs in the last inning is a joke!
by Angel Aviator on Nov 25, 2007 10:44 PM PST up reply actions 0 recs
What are facts without context?
by Caseys Kiss of Death on Nov 25, 2007 10:54 PM PST up reply actions 0 recs
Kidding Right?
by Angel Aviator on Nov 26, 2007 9:27 AM PST up reply actions 0 recs
Context
If I told you that K-Rod blew 80 saves last year, it would sound bad. If I told you that K-Rod blew 80 saves last year, and the league average was 150, then it would be quite good. THAT is context.
by Caseys Kiss of Death on Nov 26, 2007 11:29 AM PST up reply actions 0 recs
K-Rod pitched in 150 games?
by Los Angeles de Anaheim on Nov 26, 2007 12:17 PM PST up reply actions 0 recs
No Such Thing as Relief
Brad Lidge-Traded to Phillies- $5.35M
5 wins 3 Loss, 66 G, 67 IP, 54 H, 88 K's, 30 BB, BAA .219, WHIP 1.25
Hmmm... This guy lost his job because of the numbers he put up. Here in Angel Land where everyone is nice we want to sign him long term for 15 mil a year. CRAP!!
Francisco Rodriguez-Trade Some Place- $7M
5 wins 2 Loss, 64 G, 67.3 IP, 50 H, 90 K's, 34BB, BAA .204, WHIP 1.25
Hows that for context??
by Angel Aviator on Nov 26, 2007 2:21 PM PST up reply actions 0 recs
I don't think you understand "context"
but secondly, showing me one similar pitcher who was traded is not relevant, and it is not context. brad lidge is a horrible example. last year was his first decent season in more than two years. he has become a scapegoat for the pujols incident in his town for more 3 years, and never seemed to be able to personally shoulder that burden. comparing lidge, a 31 year old coming off his best year in 3 years, to k-rod, a 25 year old coming off his worst year as a closer, is a horrible comparison. and if you're suggesting that lidge and k-rod are similar, then you're suggesting they should get similar trade return. if that's the case, we shouldn't expect much by packaging k-rod.
now, aside from that, we move on to context. showing me one similar pitcher means nothing. you told me that 'x' number of k-rod's saves were of 3 runs or more. that's all well and good. now tell me how many saves the average closer has of three runs or more. what percentage of a closer's saves are of three runs or more? THAT is context. good for k-rod. 18 of his 40 saves (45%) were of three runs or more. the average closer, however, has what percentage? THAT is context.
next issue is, 45% really isn't that extreme at all. the options in a save are, essentially, save a 1, 2, or 3 run lead. that means in a season, strictly from a numbers standpoint, 33.3333...% of your saves should be from any given one of those leads. when you factor in the situationals, that is, the likelihood of blowing any one of those saves, you are less likely to have more one run saves than two run saves, and less likely to have more two run saves than three run saves. from that standpoint, 45% certainly doesn't sound that far out of whack.
now, when you consider that this is all happening during the worst season k-rod has had at a closer, and further consider that there is absolutely ZERO reason to be even slightly confident that k-rod is in a decline (there isn't reason or proof), what you're saying just doesn't carry much weight with me, nor should it with anyone.
and as a last point, it was already said in here, but the concept of a closer being easily replaceable is bullshit. for a long, long, long time now the angels have been spoiled on great closers. perhaps to a degree that it skews what we view as being replaceable. ask the indians what they think of having joe borowski closing...or any other team what they think of having their coin-flip-chance-of-success closer on the mound.
granted, they're obviously not the most essential piece of an entire club, but clearly not all closers are not created equal. k-rod, by his very nature, is most likely to be the recipient of grievances because he is the most identifiable figure who we can deem responsible for a loss. your targetted criticism of him is far more a product of viewing 162 games of the angels, and not seeing how the plethora of other MLB closers are performing, and how favorably he stacks up with them. k-rod, in what of his worst season as a close to date, had what is, by all statistical measurements in the universe except apparently your own, a very solid season. your analysis of his stats this year does nothing to prove a poor season, because the stats have no context. if i told a non-baseball fan that vladimir guerrero failed the angels 68% of the time this year, they'd ask me what the fuck he was getting paid $14 million a year for. when i provide the context, he is suddenly a superstar.
by Caseys Kiss of Death on Nov 26, 2007 5:03 PM PST up reply actions 0 recs
Not my first time
The deal hear is that to much value is put in the save when most games are decided from the 7th inning on when a relief pitcher is brought in to kill/end the inning.
Caseys Kiss of Death writes:
next issue is, 45% really isn't that extreme at all. the options in a save are, essentially, save a 1, 2, or 3 run lead. that means in a season, strictly from a numbers standpoint, 33.3333...% of your saves should be from any given one of those leads. when you factor in the situationals, that is, the likelihood of blowing any one of those saves, you are less likely to have more one run saves than two run saves, and less likely to have more two run saves than three run saves. from that standpoint, 45% certainly doesn't sound that far out of whack.
Here is info:
Papelbon:
13 3 run saves none blown gave up a run 1 time
8 2 run saves 1 blown
15 1 run saves 2 blown
1 1 out save
Putz:
10 3 run saves 1 blown save
11 2 run saves 0 blown saves
15 1 run saves 1 blown save
2 Less then an Inn save
2 enter with runners on got save
5 times pitched more then 1 inning giving up no runs to get a save in 1 run ball game
Wrong Caseys Kiss of Death
Caseys Kiss of Death writes: and as a last point, it was already said in here, but the concept of a closer being easily replaceable is bullshit. for a long, long, long time now the angels have been spoiled on great closers. Perhaps to a degree that it skews what we view as being replaceable.
Really????
Astros trade Wagner before the 2004 season Lidge saves 29 games while striking out 157 batters in just under 95 inn walking just 30. ERA 1.90 WHIP 0.92. Lidge had only 1 prior save in his first 95 inn. Oh yeah and Dotel pitches in with 14 saves in just under 35 inn striking out 50 walking 15. ERA 3.12, WHIP 1.21. Traded before the trading deadline for a guy named Carlos Beltran ...heard of him? Dotel goes on to save 22 games after the trade going 6-2 in almost 35 Inn striking out 72 walking 18. ERA 4.09 WHIP 1.16
Oakland A's haveJason Isringhausen in 2000 33 saves, 2001 who saves 34,He had a total of 1 save before being acquired from the Mets. Billy Koch in 2002 who saves 44. 2003 they acquire Keith Foulke who saves 43
Orioles have BJ Ryan who saves 36 games in 2005 they lose him and he is replaced by Chris Ray who saves 33 up until then he has zero saves at the big league level. John Wetteland saves 43 in 1996 to win the World Series. The following year he and his big contract are gone and Mariano Rivera and his career 5 saves become the Yankees Closer notching ummmm 43 saves while the Yanks pay him $550,000for the year. Do I need to go on? Oh and save your language for someone else!
Jonathan Papelbon drafted 2003 bigs 2005 35 saves 2006.
JJ Putz drafted 1999 bigs 2003 76 saves last 2 years
Houston Street drafted 2004 bigs 2005 76 saves 3 years
Chad Cordero drafted 2003 bigs 2003 128 saves
Billy Wagner, John Franco, Jeff Reardon and on and on the list goes of guys drafted as relief guys or made into relief guys quickly going to the bigs. Some having great success, or at least flashes. Like Billy Koch and others. Point is you get a good power arm with a second pitch and you have a Closer.
As for FRod going backwards I have seen it and if you have not then you have had your head in a bowl of chowder.
When I first saw him in 2000 his FB was 93-95 occ 96-97, late life, Tight SL with bite, not a strike pitch, hitters chase uses for K's, no feel for CH, being used as a starter, has had elbow problems, better suited for CL role.
Now he is not the FB 93-95 his SL is more of a slurve and hitters don't chase out of the zone. Has had to develop a CH because the slider that he has no longer has bite and now gets hit.
The difference between the Angels getting prospects/players and not getting much in return like the Astros is the Angels have not turned around and banished FRod like the Astros did with Brad Lidge.
One last thing I don't just go on stats either! They help, but knowing the game and seeing it played daily helps. Identify and Evaluate gather information then move on..........
by Angel Aviator on Nov 26, 2007 11:40 PM PST up reply actions 0 recs
I have to admit
by agermer on Nov 27, 2007 12:27 AM PST up reply actions 0 recs
Learn to format your text and to type
You also proved that Papelbon had 37% of his saves in 3-run games, which hardly proves anything to me. Also, telling me that the two best closers in the entire game of baseball were ever-so-slightly better than K-Rod in ONE season doesn't do shit for your argument. You still haven't done the ONE thing I asked for. Give me the league average percentage of saves converted in 3-run games, or all of this is just plain useless.
Also, rattling off a list of closers who were replaced by young up-and-comers doesn't mean a thing if you don't happen to have a name as to who can replace him. But more importantly, K-Rod is FAR more comparable to Chris Ray and Mariano Rivera than he is to Ryan and Wetteland...seeing as he's the 24 year old guy pulled out of the minors, who becomes a closer almost immediately.
But thanks for judging K-Rods' entire goddamn career and his continuing decline based on his 2007 performance. Clearly having a bad (bad by your standards alone) season is an instant indicator that the man's career is done. And clearly this overwhelming regression is just so apparent that it is being written about by every sportswriter in the game. Wait...none of them are? It's just you who thinks K-Rod is on the back side of his career? I wonder why the hell that is.
And hey, if his regressions is so profound, SURELY the scouts for another team must have noticed by now, since they're paid to do it, and some dude on a blog has managed to notice. Why would any team trade for a closer that is so bad that my head would have to be in "chowder" to not notice it?
by Caseys Kiss of Death on Nov 27, 2007 8:53 AM PST up reply actions 0 recs
No Need
You failed this bad. Never said F-Rod was bad. My whole point to this thing is Closers are over valued. Don't see why anyone would pay so damn much $$$ for 3 outs maybe 55 times a year. Money is better spent on 220+ inn pitcher, power bat.
Failed to find your response about comparison and context. When I asked a question you never even attempted to answer. I gave you comparisons to what a lot of people believe are the best relief pitchers in the game right now. Why don't you fight the case that he is so great. Your always so quick with how Joe Borowski is so bad (not saying he is good) but the guy saved 45 games for a team that won 96. Sure he blew 8 save opps, and he was really bad when he blew those saves. Bottom line is he blew them. F-Rod saved 40 for a team that won 94. He blew 6 save opps. Isn't that the bottom line SAVING the game? So JB has a awful ERA bottom line is he got it done 45 times blowing 8 and F-Rod got it done 40 out of 46. Whats the save % for these 2 guys? Is it really that big a difference or just splitting hairs.
As for 2007 being an instant indicator not even close. Why don't you look at old and new film and the numbers. See if the K/9 is the same or has gone down. Check out BAA and see how thats going. Also closer don't slowly lose it they just lose it.
By the way according to the MLB site there was 90 pitchers that recorded either a save opp or save. 1516 SVO this year with 1,142 Saves. Top 20 in saves had 833 SVO and converted 731 of them into saves. That works out to an AVERAGE of 36.55 saves and 5.1 blown saves per guy in the top 20.
You trade because you have a guy that can step in and do the same thing. Shields can close and if your going to argue that he was bad at the end you would be right. Then again you would be basing it on the last few months, and doing the same thing your accusing me of doing. Shields is already locked up for a few more seasons and F-Rod is going to go on the market looking for big dollars. Hey, maybe the reason the Angel brass has not signed F-Rod is because they understand the game also.
How about you stay in school and figure out that English thing and I will stay doing what I do.
by Angel Aviator on Nov 27, 2007 11:42 AM PST up reply actions 0 recs
Thanks for proving yourself
by Caseys Kiss of Death on Nov 27, 2007 1:24 PM PST up reply actions 0 recs
You HAD to do this to us again?
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by Bilko 420 on Nov 27, 2007 1:29 PM PST up reply actions 0 recs
My head just exploded
by Caseys Kiss of Death on Nov 27, 2007 2:30 PM PST up reply actions 0 recs
I'd rather trade KRod than Howie...
by bc56274 on Nov 25, 2007 1:17 PM PST reply actions 0 recs
Yeah, well...
by Obscurity on Nov 25, 2007 2:03 PM PST reply actions 0 recs
Obscurity, I shouldn't dignify you with a response
Read my post... We wouldn't be trading Krod to the Marlins... the trade involves a THIRD team.
by Los Angeles de Anaheim on Nov 25, 2007 2:13 PM PST up reply actions 0 recs
exactly why the save
by mdangel on Nov 25, 2007 5:01 PM PST up reply actions 0 recs
Thank You
by Angel Aviator on Nov 25, 2007 10:48 PM PST up reply actions 0 recs
30 saves in the vaunted
by retrohalo on Nov 25, 2007 5:35 PM PST up reply actions 0 recs
Is that comparable to
by thehasegawaexpress on Nov 26, 2007 12:50 AM PST up reply actions 0 recs
Fact!
Goes to show just how easy one can get a relief pitcher that can pitch one inning and not shit down his leg. Hell, doesn't a good hitter fail at about 68%? If that is so then who is the direct benifeciary of the hitters failure?
by Angel Aviator on Nov 26, 2007 2:36 PM PST up reply actions 0 recs
Well...
by gorams77 on Nov 25, 2007 5:49 PM PST reply actions 0 recs

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