Howie and Co.
by higdog on Dec 1, 2007 5:03 PM PST
55 comments
A lot of opinions for and against the trade of Howie Kendrick and prospects have been voiced on this site. I am a real big fan of his as well as a fan of all of our prospects. I want to see this team win, with those guys leading the charge. I would almost rather lose with him than win without him and some of the others proposed in the trade.
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by Angel Aviator on Dec 1, 2007 5:18 PM PST reply actions 0 recs
well
hell, if hes in florida hes back home and hes probably happier anyway.
by ihearhowie2.0 on Dec 1, 2007 5:21 PM PST reply actions 0 recs
I said
by Angel Aviator on Dec 1, 2007 5:45 PM PST up reply actions 0 recs
there's another site for some of you...
by thejd on Dec 1, 2007 5:25 PM PST reply actions 0 recs
I would like to win
by higdog on Dec 1, 2007 5:45 PM PST reply actions 0 recs
Little Late
Figgins (Rockies)
GMJ (SDP, Pitt,Mets,Balt,Braves,Tex)
Hunter (MIN)
Vlad (Expos)
Escobar (Blue Jays)
Izturis (CLE,Expos)
Rivera (NYY,Expos)
Oliver (TEX,StL,BOS,FLA,COL,AZ,CHI,NYM)
Speier (CHI,FLA,ATL,CLE,NYM,COL,TOR)
Bulger (AZ)
Garland (CHW)
Kennard (NYY)
Moseley (CIN)
Evans (StL)
Haynes (OAK)
by Angel Aviator on Dec 1, 2007 6:10 PM PST up reply actions 0 recs
Exactly
by anaheimisnotla on Dec 1, 2007 6:41 PM PST up reply actions 0 recs
Well, we have that, too
Anderson
F. Rodriguez
Kotchman
Kendrick
Napoli
Saunders
Santana
Weaver
Aybar
Wood
Willits
Moseley
Shields
Mathis
Quinlan
Haynes
by Caseys Kiss of Death on Dec 1, 2007 11:02 PM PST up reply actions 0 recs
Oops, Didn't mean to include Haynes.
by Caseys Kiss of Death on Dec 1, 2007 11:02 PM PST up reply actions 0 recs
Moseley (CIN)
by Rev Halofan on Dec 1, 2007 11:57 PM PST up reply actions 0 recs
Whoops
by Caseys Kiss of Death on Dec 2, 2007 12:16 AM PST up reply actions 0 recs
Jesus, Justin Spier
by matt92130 on Dec 2, 2007 1:35 PM PST up reply actions 0 recs
This is insanity
by DChalofan on Dec 1, 2007 5:50 PM PST reply actions 0 recs
No, the Marlin proposed trade is insanity
by Brad on Dec 2, 2007 10:48 AM PST up reply actions 0 recs
Oh, and one added bonus to the trade
by Brad on Dec 2, 2007 10:51 AM PST up reply actions 0 recs
and
by Angel Aviator on Dec 2, 2007 11:51 AM PST up reply actions 0 recs
How So
You want to hold onto Mathis a guy that was the 3rd string catcher at the start of the year who has never proven he is capable of hitting big league pitching. Wood who has upside but still has big holes in his swing, and has not shown he is ready to play in the bigs. Nick Adenhart who was less then 2-1 on K's/BB giving up more hits then innings pitched, is still a solid season away from making the bigs 350+ minor league innings pitched and he is behind guys like Lackey, Escobar, Weaver,Garland,Saunders,Santana and has not pitched a day above AA ball with his reconstructed elbow. Howie who has huge talent, but has had trouble staying healthy since the day he signed a pro contract.
Woods and Adenhart are projection guys right now and the only true big leaguer at this time is Howie. Keeping these guys makes the Angels better when? How do you know? Based on what? There is always risk/reward in a trade. Only risk here is not locking Cabrera up for years after, and of course all you people who think he is going to be the next 1 ton man. So he may not look good selling TV's for Howard's. Make the deal if you know you can lock M.Cabrera up for years to come. Pass if you can't.
Only way I would maybe agree with your statement is if the Angels were thinking of trading these players within the American League, or worse the Division and if they did become these superstars like Cabrera then it would haunt/hurt the Angels for years. Thing here is the Marlins aren't in the American League, or the division.
Braves didn't get Teixeira for nothing.
by Angel Aviator on Dec 2, 2007 1:11 PM PST up reply actions 0 recs
Haha, wait a minute
We do need to give something to get something, but not at that expense. Leave HK off and include someone else, or leave off Mathis and include someone else. Leave off Adenhart and include someone else. Bottom, you just can't trade all of that for ONE guy.
Hypothetically, what if, just what if DMac came back healthy. That'd be a hell of a nice surprise... and I don't think it's crazy to think that either. Maybe not MCab numbers, but still respectable and we keep our flexibility and depth. I'm not going to pin my hopes on DMac coming back, which is why I we moved Wood over last year. We also have Figgins. A better trade would be for Tejada, or Greene. Keep the depth, and the flexibility.
If you're going to go for broke, go after Johan Santana. The Angels getting Johan gives us not one point, but two. Point one, he pitches for us. Point two, he doesn't pitch for the already dominant Red Sox or Yankees.
by matt92130 on Dec 2, 2007 1:32 PM PST up reply actions 0 recs
Trade
The trade has to include someone of value (Howie). Mathis will never be the guy teams worry about when he steps to the plate. Who by the way you have made the starter by nutrition. Not because of his ability or skill level. The deal is also for Adenhart. The one with the most projection because he is the only one that hasn't spent a day in the bigs.
Note .....Miguel Cabrera WS winner 2003
Don't you find it funny/odd that in all these trade talks nobody ever wants McMuffin? The Angel fans are the only people who think he still has some upside. If the Angel brass thought this then these trade talks would never have started.
For you to say that ARod has never helped a team win a ring is not true. Had you said he has never won a ring that would be true statement, but to say he has never helped a team win a ring is not true. Vlad has never helped a team win a ring, so does that diminish his value and ability? He has helped by making the team better.
Note .....Miguel Cabrera WS winner 2003
If you look at the teams ARod has played for they have always been short on the hill/pen. In 2000 that was not the issue with the Mariners and ARod. The team was 2nd in pitching, and had the rookie of the year coming out of the pen saving 37 games. They would lose to the Yankees in the ALCS 4-2.
Cobb, Lajoie, Sisler, Williams, McCovey, Banks, Yastrzemski, Killebrew, were never on a World Champion. It takes nothing away from their greatness, or ability to produce. At least thats how the Hall of Fame voters saw it.
Note .....Miguel Cabrera WS winner 2003
Teams, not great players, win championships. The fact that these players never were World Champions does not diminish their greatness. How many managers or fans would take Paul O'Neill or Kirk Gibson over Ted Williams for example.
by Angel Aviator on Dec 2, 2007 2:25 PM PST up reply actions 0 recs
I agree with you partly
Like I had said earlier, I don't feel comfortable giving up the amount the Marlins are asking for. My position with Kendrick is that he is expendable... but ONLY at the right price. Say you throw Adenhart in the deal who is talented. As for Mathis, I did mention Naploi's health and rightfully so. He has not played a full season without getting injured. I believe Mathis is a better catcher than Napoli. Defensively he is brilliant. Offensively, I don't believe he has the raw power Napoli has but it's irrelevant if you can't stay on the field. Mathis has a level swing and will likely hit for a better average which will equal a higher on base percentage.
As for A-Rod, now winning a ring and not helping winning a ring are pretty much the same thing. Bottom line, A-Rod does not have a ring, therefore none of teams have a ring, er, while he was on them I mean. I'm not knocking A-Rod, or Vlad, or any other great player that does not have a ring, but I am saying there has to be a limit on what you give. Getting MCab for the Marlins asking price is absurd. You fill one hole... and yes at big one at that, but you're creating other holes and weakening out depth. Hey, injuries are a part of baseball, people get hurt. I'd like to keep the players that we know can do the job on a similiar level as the starter.
As noted in the my earlier posting, if you're going to go all in, go get Johan. He'll solidify 1 thru 5 to the be the best in baseball. We're in every game. There's other bats out there, where as there's only one Johan available.
If you take nothing out of all this, and I'm sure you won't, I'm trying to say I'd take Johan anyday over MCab. If you'er going to trade everything, get Johan, not MCab.
by matt92130 on Dec 2, 2007 10:22 PM PST up reply actions 0 recs
Good Conversation
The deal on the table has risk in it for the Marlins. Howie is talented but has shown a knack for getting injured. Adenhart has had major arm surgery and hasn't thrown a pitch above AA. Pitchers are always high risk.
As for Mathis he has never been much of an offensive threat at any level let alone the big league level. Its true if your hurt your not much of a help (Howie), but at best Mathis is a backup catcher on a Division winning team. As for Mathis hitting for a better AVG and therefor having a better OBP that isn't so true. Mathis has never been one to take a walk. While Napoli has shown he will take a walk helping that OBP a lot. With that and the power that Napoli has displayed I am more inclined to hold onto Napoli, and his run production value. Let's not forget that Mathis was the third best option until Jose Molina was traded.
Putting Kendricks,Adenhart and Mathis out there for MCab should be enough. I don't feel the Angels should have to put Wood in the deal. If they put Willits or McPherson in the deal thats fine. Should Wood be part of the deal that is hard to swallow, but I think the Angels still have some depth. After all they still have Willits and Rivera for OF help, and they have Isturiz, Aybar, for Middle INF help and of course there is Figgiins who plays both. You have Rob Q for the corners. With 4 catchers on the 40 man roster right now that leaves Wilson or Budde battling for the backup position.
The Johan trade is a lot tougher to make for me based on the fact you would be trading so much for a guy that will play every 5th day. Not to mention he is more likely to cost the club more then MCab in dollars. I have never been a fan of paying huge dollars for pitching. Those Colon type contracts scare me more then the huge everyday player contracts. You figure Johan will be looking for something like 5 years at 25mil a year. Thats 125 mil over the lifetime of the contract. Your hoping he is healthy and gives you the typical 33 starts a year. So your talking about 750,000 a start over the length of the contract. Me I will take the everyday guy that would play in 750 games and 6500 innings over the lifetime of that same contract. You say that Johan would solidify the rotation, but the rotation has to be one of the better rotations in baseball right now. Off the top of my head I can't think of a better one can you? Don't get me wrong he would make it that much better, but that position is already strong.
Again I understand the Johan thing and he is a hell of a pitcher lifetime against CHW 13-6, and he buries the weak teams like KC 11-3, Balt 4-1, TB 4-2, and Det (5-1 with his only career save)being one of those weak teams up until 2 years ago. He is now 4-4 in the last 2 years vs. Det. But I think he is also 4-4 in his career against the BoSox and 3-0 career against the Yankees, 7-7 against Clev, and 2-3 against the Angels who have hit him well. In fact last season and again in 2006 he did not start a game against the Angels. Guess he is still getting over game 5 of the ALCS. His career playoff record is 1-3 3.97 era. The team is strong in pitching and weak in power. Acquire the power.
Understand this post is for conversation and I understand wanting Johan just hope you see the points I am trying to make. Happy fishing out there in the Keys.
by Angel Aviator on Dec 3, 2007 1:44 PM PST up reply actions 0 recs
Howie doesn't have The Knack
I do not consider having pitchers throwing at you and hitting your hands a "knack for getting injured".
by red floyd on Dec 4, 2007 11:00 AM PST up reply actions 0 recs
I wouldn't mind giving up
by higdog on Dec 1, 2007 6:57 PM PST reply actions 0 recs
Heck...
by K3YEROUT on Dec 1, 2007 7:09 PM PST up reply actions 0 recs
How about
Come on we are talking about a guy that has been a force since he stepped to the plate and helped FLA win a World Series.
All this talk about weight is a excuse for all the HK lovers. He has missed a total of 13 games in the last 4 years. The fatso! Kids 24 (3 months older then Howie) and has been throwing up huge numbers. His SLG% would have made him the top SLG on the team in 2007 and his lifetime SLG% .565 is only short of Vlads lifetime .579. M.Cabrera lifetime AVG. of .313 would rank him 1st on the team as well. So save the Howie can be this or that because the bottom line is Miguel Cabrera is already what everyone thinks Howie might be, but with out the power. Howie is a good player and I like him, but he is cheap and that is the reason why FLA is asking for him in the trade. Can't get a player like Cabrera and not give anything up.
Just remember if you can trade your everyday gold glove SS who hit .301 scored a 101 runs while knocking in 85+ and stealing 20 bags not to mention one of the few that managed to get a few hits against Boston then you sure as hell can trade Howie.
by Angel Aviator on Dec 2, 2007 2:15 AM PST up reply actions 0 recs
No, we do not get better by trading Howie for MC
by Brad on Dec 2, 2007 10:55 AM PST up reply actions 0 recs
hell!
i notice youre not attached to dallas mcpherson. everyone loves prospects when theyre still fresh and you can point to their minor league stats. nobody wants them around when they fall flat in the majors or dont cut it.
i was one of the people who would hate seeing howie go most, but even ive come to terms with it. you need to check your priorities. what if howie never reaches his full potential and is always just solid? you probably wouldnt love him much if cabrera continued on his HALL OF FAME pace.
do you think red sox fans are pissed they traded hanley for beckett? poor them, they lost a great prospect and all they got was a world series out of the trade.
i agree with the first post. re-evaluate exactly what youre a fan of here. The angels, or the salt lake bees.
by ihearhowie2.0 on Dec 1, 2007 7:38 PM PST up reply actions 0 recs
Yes on the sarcasm, no on trading HK
I don't think HK will ever hit 30 HR's in a season, but the rest of his numbers will approach Cabrera's recent seasons. I balk at the "what if's" above...too many variables with anyone! What if we trade the farm and MC blows a knee or eats his way off the team? I wouldn't go that direction!
For my money, keep HK! An injured HK hit .322 last season! If healthy...? .350 or ???
I AM a big DMac fan and would love to see them go with what they have. Move Santana to the bullpen to join Shields & Speier. I think it was Stephen Smith who did a post not too long ago about how a healthy Angel squad would hit 50 more HR's next season just by being healthy most of the season! I buy it! Cabrera is a defensive liability and we trade our depth unnecessarily! The power/production is already there when healthy!
by K3YEROUT on Dec 2, 2007 12:02 AM PST up reply actions 0 recs
.350?
by Angel Aviator on Dec 2, 2007 1:45 AM PST up reply actions 0 recs
Actually no it's not
If you take out Howie's first 44 AB's after coming back from being hit in the hand. He did hit .350. In those first 44 AB's he only had 6 hits and only one of them was an XBH which was a double.
His numbers san those 44 AB's he hit
.350/.375/.493 for the year.
by MH25 on Dec 2, 2007 9:11 AM PST up reply actions 0 recs
Bottom line
Find some other package of players or find someone else to trade for!
by K3YEROUT on Dec 2, 2007 4:26 PM PST up reply actions 0 recs
actually there is a difference.
you're not trading, you're upgrading.
a better argument would be for the talent we're trading along with hk. santana has a pretty big upside if he can get shit together. mathis is a defensively sound catcher with some pop. willits is an on-base machine with a lot of speed. and even then the balance sort of tips in our favor.
i'd start having trouble with this trade once adenhart and wood get included along with hk. then i'd say no and opt for plan b, even if plan b is tejada.
by retrohalo on Dec 2, 2007 4:48 PM PST up reply actions 0 recs
Not Close
Kendrick is gone if the trade happens. Thats the bottom line. time to except that much. The only thing holding it up is what pitchers are included.
We did get a bat in Hunter! Now we would be getting a better bat with Cabrera making it plural.
by Angel Aviator on Dec 2, 2007 5:01 PM PST up reply actions 0 recs
Arguably our best hitter???
by DChalofan on Dec 2, 2007 5:10 PM PST up reply actions 0 recs
You don't have to like what I post
by K3YEROUT on Dec 2, 2007 7:18 PM PST up reply actions 0 recs
whoops....Vlad, not Blad
by K3YEROUT on Dec 2, 2007 7:19 PM PST up reply actions 0 recs
2nd Best?
Four Angel regulars had higher OPS+ then Kendrick 109. Kotchman 119, Figgins 117, Anderson 114, Guerrero 147
Three Angels had better SLG% then Kendricks
Kotchman, Anderson, Vlad.
If you toss in Hunter then you have another that was ahead of him. Of course the numbers with Cabrera are way ahead of Kendrick as well.
You will try to argue AVG as being the one he is a little higher, but AVG doesn't win games. Runs win games and these numbers are the one that count. AVG is a personal thing! Then again if you take his 162 game averages he falls short of Figgins (again) and Vlad (again).
Your right about the turf taking its toll on Vlad but that's the only thing your right about when you mention his name.
First of all Vlad has lead the league the last 3 yrs in intentional walks. Could that be because there is no protection behind him? He was 8th in the AL in AVG. 8th in on base%, 7th in SLG%, 7th in OPS, 6th in total bases, 4th in doubles, 10th in HR's, 3rd in RBI's, 8th in Extra-base hits, 7th in Adjusted OPS+ and 7th in Runs Created.
Man it's a good thing Vlad isn't a horse, or the Angels would have to shoot him. Let's send him for Cabrera. It is a joke that so many of you think that giving up Kendrick is robbery. The robbery would be if the Angels include more then 1 pitcher.
You say the Angels need quantity come on they already have that. They need a power bat with run production. I have always been fonder of quality then quantity
by Angel Aviator on Dec 2, 2007 8:30 PM PST up reply actions 0 recs
I said a healthy Howie
by K3YEROUT on Dec 2, 2007 10:32 PM PST up reply actions 0 recs
And What I am Saying
Howie has never been healthy since he signed a pro contract. He has always been banged up and on the DL. Most games ever played in any season is 109. We already know what you get with MCab .313/.388/.542 118 RBI 101 Runs. Playing 150+ a year the last 4
I have also said that Howie is a talent, and has a chance to be a very good hitting second baseman, but there is risk with him as well. The risk being his durablity!
Kendrick is already a solid in the trade. Problem with the trade is who else goes, the problem isn't letting go of Howie.
By the way Howie in 162 works to .306/.332/.435 70 RBI 81 Runs
by Angel Aviator on Dec 3, 2007 12:20 AM PST up reply actions 0 recs
I've seen enough propects come
by higdog on Dec 1, 2007 7:41 PM PST reply actions 0 recs
How can you be in the driver's seat
by DChalofan on Dec 1, 2007 8:03 PM PST up reply actions 0 recs
manny has problems too
id love to pay $5 for laker tickets. id really like to be a pro athlete without putting in the work. but that doesnt happen. you have to sacrifice something to get something good in return. you can talk all you want about watching prospects play well somewhere else. maybe you should worry more about the team youre supposed to be rooting for. i have a hard time beleving youll be unhappy with miguel cabrera when hes on this team and you see how it impacts the way our entire middle of the order is pitched to.
howies a great guy to hit .330 and hit some doubles but unless theres someone that forces pitchers to throw strikes to the guys that hit behind him, hes just a luxury. the type of presence cabrera would provide our lineup would change everything.
you put cabrera behind vlad and suddenly pitching to vlad becomes necessary. not only that, our #2 hitter, likely matthews, will see A LOT more strikes because you want to get him out before you deal with vlad.
i LOVE howie kendrick and his game but you as a baseball fan have to understand the benefit of acquiring offense like cabrera and that talent like that cannot be had for our 2nd tier prospects. deal with it.
by ihearhowie2.0 on Dec 1, 2007 9:10 PM PST up reply actions 0 recs
We have a lot of prospects
by higdog on Dec 1, 2007 8:07 PM PST reply actions 0 recs
You'd rather win with Howie
Good fucking lord. The whole upside to keeping Howie is so that he can eventually help us win a title. If we can win one as a result of trading him, sign me up.
by Caseys Kiss of Death on Dec 1, 2007 11:03 PM PST reply actions 0 recs
Strike that, reverse it
by Caseys Kiss of Death on Dec 1, 2007 11:03 PM PST up reply actions 0 recs
Resop's take from the S.Fla Sun-Sentinel
An insider's view
Assuming the Marlins received several young players from the Angels in any trade for Miguel Cabrera, what exactly would the Marlins be getting? One ex-Marlin has a pretty good sense. A year ago the Marlins sent right-hander Chris Resop to the Angels for Kevin Gregg. Resop was hurt much of last season, all but a fraction of which he spent at Triple-A Salt Lake City. Earlier this fall the Braves claimed him off waivers. His lone season in the Angels organization afforded him a firsthand view of the top prospects who could be trade bait in a Marlins trade. Here are his evaluations:
On Jeff Mathis: "Catching-wise, defensively and everything else, he puts his life on the line pretty much. His pitch calling is very good. He's a very smart catcher. I like him behind the plate. If I had to throw to somebody, he's one of the guys I would pick for sure. He's got a great arm and is just a great defensive catcher."
On Howie Kendrick: "Defensively, he's outstanding. He's got a good arm and really solid glove. He's going to remind you a lot of Uggla, stocky, real built, strong kid. He's got a lot of pop. The kid is going to hit you .300 every year. He's just an unbelievable hitter. ... It's like every time he hits it, he doesn't miss it. It's on the barrel every time. ... His nickname is Truck, so he's definitely hard-nosed."
On Reggie Willits: "He's not going to hit a lot of home runs. He's got kind of a weird swing. He almost takes three-fourths of a swing. His mind-set every time is to hit the ball over the shortstop's head as a lefty and, as a righty, right over the second baseman's head. ... He's quick, good leadoff hitter."
On Nick Adenhart: "He was in big-league camp for couple of weeks. I saw him pitch a couple of times. Everybody said he's got good stuff, but you just can't pick up his ball. When I saw him pitch he made some big-league guys look foolish."
On Ervin Santana/Joe Saunders: "Both of them are unbelievable. Both have outstanding stuff. Santana, some days you see him pitch and don't know how he gets hit, 94-95 with a good changeup, good slider, good curveball. That kid is going to be very good. Both of those guys are."
by K3YEROUT on Dec 2, 2007 12:23 AM PST reply actions 0 recs
Weaver, Morales and Evans
by higdog on Dec 2, 2007 7:55 AM PST reply actions 0 recs
No Howie
BUT Cabrera is considered one of the "last pieces of the puzzle." What happens if we add a big piece but also take away a big piece in Howie?
What happens if we don't re-sign Cabrera for some reason? I know we'll try, but there's no guarantee he'll accept.
If that happens, then fast forward to the 2009 off-season--where we're exactly where we are now, except we suddenly have holes at 3B, likely C, AND 2B (a hole that we will have had for the previous two years at that point, too).
Simply too much risk. I'd hate to let Weaver go, but I'd rather try to pull that one off.
by Clutch on Dec 2, 2007 10:48 AM PST reply actions 0 recs
Weaver to SD
by higdog on Dec 2, 2007 10:55 AM PST reply actions 0 recs
I read somwhere...
by matt92130 on Dec 2, 2007 1:09 PM PST up reply actions 0 recs
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