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Fox: Tori Hunter Top 5 Worst Off Season Signings

I guess it depends on what coast you are on.  If Boston or New York had signed him, Fox would be handing them the World Series right now.
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I saw this as well
There is a fixation on Torii's low OBP, which ironically, is the one stat a #4/5 hitter needs less of when they can mash - and again, this guy hit 1 more homer than Vlad last season.

The Angels are damned when they do and damned when they don't - they have a baserunning machine in place in 2007 and they get scolded for ignoring batting power. Then they go out and get some pop and are scolded because Torii Hunter does not get on base as much as a leadoff hitter.

And heaven forbid that Fox criticize the ew-signings of Mariano Rivera or Jorge Posada - players that are 8 and 4 years older than Torii Hunter respectively.

by Rev Halofan on Dec 11, 2007 2:43 PM PST reply actions   0 recs

Mash Potatoes
Not so sure I would throw Torii Hunter (.324 OBP) in as a masher. Does he have pop sure. But to be put in the masher role like these guys Vlad .391 OBP, ManRam .409, Ortiz .384, Frank Thomas .421 OBP, Albert Pujols .420 OBP, AROD .389, Mark Teixeira .371 OBP, Chipper Jones .403 OBP, Miguel Cabrera .388 OBP, Travis Hafner .398 OBP (.385 amazing considering he had 115K's, Adam Dunn .381 OBP (.386 last year, amazing considering he had 165K's).

The thing with the Hunter signing is it is a bad deal based on the fact the Angels did not address their needs. The OF was fine and had the team not done a thing with the OF I am sure the fans would have been more then fine with that. Problem is they went and spent the $$$ on something we did not need.

Its kind of like the conversations the wife and I have when she shows me what she bought on sale. My thing is did we really need it, and imagine how much we would have saved had she not bought the item at all. Knowing the $$$ spent could go for something that is needed.

Hunter is a solid player and I like his energy, but to pay 16 mil a year nah....

by Angel Aviator on Dec 11, 2007 3:39 PM PST up reply actions   0 recs

What will make it a good signing....
... is when we trade OF surplus for a difference-making 3Bman or some other need. What will make it a great signing is if we can somehow convince GMJ to trade his no-trade, and send him to the Pads for a young 3B.

I'm dreaming, I know, but the winter's too young to judge this deal. Hunter is a much better guy to have in CF than Matthews, and a terrific dude all around in the clubhouse, so for the moment I'm fine with this deal.

by mattwelch on Dec 11, 2007 4:52 PM PST up reply actions   0 recs

I like the idea of unloading some of our OF's
but I like the idea of plugging in "our" young 3rd basemen and bolstering our bullpen.
Stay on the damn bag!!

by higdog on Dec 11, 2007 5:06 PM PST up reply actions   0 recs

I think Wood should play SS (in 2009)
And I'm not excited by plugging in D-Back or Matt Brown at 3B, since one can't stay healthy and the other can't hit.

by mattwelch on Dec 11, 2007 5:09 PM PST up reply actions   0 recs

I don't have anything other than Baseball fate
to fall back on, but somehow I think D-Mac is going to have a good year.
Stay on the damn bag!!

by higdog on Dec 11, 2007 5:13 PM PST up reply actions   0 recs

Me too!
I predict 21 HRs in like 379 ABs.

by mattwelch on Dec 11, 2007 6:56 PM PST up reply actions   0 recs

How oddly specific
I must ask then, what are this week's power ball numbers?

by Caseys Kiss of Death on Dec 11, 2007 7:14 PM PST up reply actions   0 recs

The 21 is specific
The ABs will just be somewhere in the 300s....

by mattwelch on Dec 11, 2007 7:59 PM PST up reply actions   0 recs

Haha, no I definitely agree with
what you're saying.  I just found it funny that you were so exact about it.  In my "realist" estimate on my blog, I gave him seven, but the cautious optimist can definitely see 20+.

by Caseys Kiss of Death on Dec 11, 2007 8:45 PM PST up reply actions   0 recs

for someone else!
unfortunately!  
Stop swinging at balls out of the zone!

by K3YEROUT on Dec 12, 2007 7:40 PM PST up reply actions   0 recs

Matt, you said with few words what I was trying to
say in my earlier diary.

I'm all on-board with getting Hunter - Just think the Halos need to make another move to fill their need at 3B/SS

"And the Anaheim Angels are the Champions of Baseball!"

by Grichfan on Dec 12, 2007 9:29 AM PST up reply actions   0 recs

What does walking have to do with mashing?
Hunter had a higher slugging % than Manny, Big Hurt, and Hafner last year. Granted, they had off years, but he was relatively close to Pujols and Larry as well. We needed more power. We significantly improved our power (at a prime defensive position). It's Arte's money, not ours. Let the good times roll.
That's if you call October, "the future"

by justanotherhalosvictory on Dec 11, 2007 5:14 PM PST up reply actions   0 recs

Matthews over Figgins
at lead off and if D-Mac can give 15-20 HR's are significant upgrades in the power department over Figgins and GA.  Matthews hit for power batting leadoff for Texas.  With the lineup we now have behind him, he should be able to replicate that.
Stay on the damn bag!!

by higdog on Dec 11, 2007 5:22 PM PST up reply actions   0 recs

Don't count on that...
Matthews v. 2006 is not going to be replicated.

Ever.

Ever.

Not for $50 million, not ever.

It is sunk cost.

Period.

by jimmuscomp on Dec 11, 2007 5:40 PM PST up reply actions   0 recs

GMJ wasn't terrible when healthy last year
His defense appeared to be pretty overrated although he does make some unbelievable catches (just wish he'd make more of the 'kinda hard' ones.

I think his bat will be fine if he can stay healthy and it would be nice to have him in right over Vlad so Vlad can DH.  

Even better if we can somehow trade him and put Rivera there.

by thewebb on Dec 11, 2007 7:31 PM PST up reply actions   0 recs

In fact
I'd go as far as to say that, when healthy, Matthews was a very good offensive contributor.  He wasn't exactly replicating 2006, but before the end-season health issues and crap-out, his OPS+ was consistently around 110, and he was batting ~.270.  He also finished the season second on the club in DINGERS.

by Caseys Kiss of Death on Dec 11, 2007 8:59 PM PST up reply actions   0 recs

Are They
mashers? The original statement at the top spoke about what does OBP have to do with anything when you can mash, and how mashers don't have high OBP. Not so true is it?

Not to mention Hunter is way off when you talk SLG% with a Pujols, or Larry. All the above players have better lifetime SLG% as well.

by Angel Aviator on Dec 11, 2007 10:05 PM PST up reply actions   0 recs

For 18 freakin million
Is it too much to ask for a player to both mash and get on base?

I don't have a problem with Dayn's criticism - Torii is a very good player but not a great one.  I'm happy to have him on the team, because every good player we can get is one more step to the series, but I'd be pissed if the Angels fail to get Santana because they can't afford his 20-25 million on top of Torii's 18.

Reagins on a return to Fenway: "Mr. Henry, tear down this wall!"

by RallyMonkey5 on Dec 11, 2007 7:41 PM PST up reply actions   0 recs

Well...
that story was written by Dayn Perry, which explains a lot.

Second, the only real beef he has with the signing is the dollar amount of the contract and, to some degree, the length of it. He even admits that Torii will help the Angels win.

There's nothing original here. Perry's story adds nothing new to the debate.

by Higz on Dec 11, 2007 2:46 PM PST reply actions   0 recs

It's a bad contract.
Yankees have Damon and Abreu.
Red Sox have Drew.
We have Matthews and Hunter.

They're all bad contracts.

Why does it bother you that it's stated?  It's all true.

by bc56274 on Dec 11, 2007 2:47 PM PST reply actions   0 recs

Bad?
Guess what::

Since MONEYBALL was written (and influenced a generation of baseball analysts to be penny-pinchng tightwads in compensating players) Major League Baseball has QUADRUPLED ITS REVENUES and shares these revenues with every team like never before. Matthews and Hunter have contracts that are ahead of the curve relative to the sport's growth, but some people are STUCK in the pre-internet economics of 1999. It is a new century with new revenue streams and Arte Moreno is NOT pocketing the dough and then crying to the fans - which is what Lew Wolff is doing to Joakland's few thousand loyalists and laughing all the way to his tarped-over bank.

by Rev Halofan on Dec 11, 2007 3:15 PM PST up reply actions   0 recs

Anyone ever tell you
that your rants sound like Dennis Miller?

And I don't mean that in a bad way, I swear.

by Caseys Kiss of Death on Dec 11, 2007 3:22 PM PST up reply actions   0 recs

Are you saying....
....bad contracts no longer exist, anywhere, because of the shared revenue?

by bc56274 on Dec 11, 2007 3:41 PM PST up reply actions   0 recs

I am saying...
...that the discussion of what is and is not a bad contract that perpetuates on the internet is based on an analytical mehodology established in 1999 and that the economics of the sport have radically changed since then.

There are bad contracts. Articulating what specifically distinguishes them from good contracts will be a practice of hindsight for the next few seasons.

by Rev Halofan on Dec 11, 2007 4:21 PM PST up reply actions   0 recs

Have you read Moneyball?
It's been a while since I've read it, but I don't remember a "methodology" that determines whether something is a bad contract or not.  I could be wrong and feel free to refresh my memory.

It seemed to me like the book was about identifying inefficiencies in a market and exploiting them more than it was about assigning any specific values to anything.  And if you're referring specifically to OBP, many "Moneyball people" - as Joe Morgan would call them - have said that the inefficiencies in the market for OBP have declined significantly.  I would agree.

I don't think any reasonable person would argue with you about the economics of the sport having changed.  Any specific dollar amounts that were mentioned in Moneyball are not applicable today, and anyone who would argue otherwise just isn't very smart.

by Dogman on Dec 11, 2007 4:49 PM PST up reply actions   0 recs

of course I have read Moneyball
I was not referring to the tome specifically, but rather to to the culture that has emerged (especially on the interenet) from those who read it whose perception baseball moves was transformed byt the book.

These acolytes now gage every front office move across baseball from the perspective of the economics of a small market franchise. Therefore there is almost NO player worth $18 million a year if you adhere to their methodologies.

by Rev Halofan on Dec 11, 2007 5:03 PM PST up reply actions   0 recs

A slight correction...
These acolytes now gage [sic] every front office move across baseball from the perspective of the economics of a small market franchise more interested in pocketing their graduating revenue streams and pretending to still exist in a 1990's baseball economy so as to fool their constituents and perpetuate the myth that only through their magic elixer are they capable of remaining afloat at all.

This, dear readers, is why they plan on building a NEW stadium that, by design, only seats approximately the same number of paying customers as they currently provide untarped in their current stadium.

by Stirrups on Dec 11, 2007 6:09 PM PST up reply actions   0 recs

You are right about the economics
The Rays and Marlins can put crap on the field for a minimum investment, not draw any fans or even pretend to compete, and laugh all the way to the bank on the backs of competitive teams like and Angels, Yanks and Red Sox.

Economics have changed, but not all for the good of baseball.

by LosAngel on Dec 13, 2007 6:24 AM PST up reply actions   0 recs

Moneyball
I will be the first to say I am not a big fan of some of the thoughts shared in the book Moneyball. With that said I don't think Moneyball was written with the thought that you don't spend money as much as it was written with the thought that you can get just as much while not over paying.

Moneyball was also written expressing which stats really matter when it comes to putting a winning team on the field. In the mind of Billy Bene that is

Whats it matter if you aren't pocketing the money yet your over spending ("Matthews and Hunter have contracts that are ahead of the curve relative to the sport's growth") on high end free agents. Regardless if money is being spent it still has to be spent wisely. Arte still has a budget and no matter what he will continue to keep his eye on the bottom line dollar.

Don't get me wrong Rev I like Torii Hunter and think he brings something to the team. Just not that piece they needed to put them up and over to top.

by Angel Aviator on Dec 11, 2007 10:32 PM PST up reply actions   0 recs

Dayn Perry
Writes the lists
Um.........

by hauldog on Dec 11, 2007 2:53 PM PST reply actions   0 recs

money
i agree in relation to contracts 5 years ago, its a little pricey for Torii Hunter...but look at the market.

you cant be players in a new market while referring to the old market.

Barry Zito got the biggest contract for a pitcher ever. A-Rod got an even bigger contract even though hes much older and on the wrong side of his prime.

This is why Torii Hunter can make 18 million even though hes 32 and Andruw Jones can make even more after hitting .222

Look at the payrolls of teams, youll be surprised that more and more teams are approaching, reaching or going well above the $100 million threshhold.

the games doing well, inflation is showing some signs and you just have to compare the contract to ones signed THAT YEAR because free agency fluctuates like crazy

by ihearhowie2.0 on Dec 11, 2007 3:30 PM PST reply actions   0 recs

I agree with you 100%
It's not our money, and Arte can pay a little luxury tax if he wants to that's his call.

All that should matter to the fans is if Torii makes our team better or worse.  

I say better, some may not.  

by Wytelitning on Dec 11, 2007 3:39 PM PST up reply actions   0 recs

nay-sayers should read
fantasyland. It's a great book about fantasy baseball and the author talks about how everyone has gotten way too into sabrmetrics and has lost the idea that there is a human element to these players. They're people just like us, maybe millionaires but they have issues just like we do. Torii Hunter has amazing character and he'll give us what our team has needed for a while now, a team leader that actually speaks. Hunter is going to add a dimension to our offense shitty career obp or not. He is going to help us out.

You can talk all the shit you want about GMJ but when he robbed Texiera of that double in the right center gap on opening night last year i knew he would help us become a better team, and look at what happened, we won the division.

Personally I agree that the post-season is a crapshoot, and in the coming years our offense will actually click in the post-season and we'll win it all based on timely hitting and running and all that stuff and Scioscia will be praised for sticking to his guns.

Personally i love the Angels style of play, it's exciting and I am proud to be a season seat holder because of it.

"I love this british shit!" -Lou Brown

by jtkelly86 on Dec 11, 2007 3:55 PM PST reply actions   0 recs

and then
"but when he robbed Texiera of that double in the right center gap on opening night"

Then he dropped an easy fly ball for an error, then made a great diving catch to end the inning after the bases were loaded.

Watching GM jr play defense is like riding a rollercoaster.

Reagins on a return to Fenway: "Mr. Henry, tear down this wall!"

by RallyMonkey5 on Dec 12, 2007 6:53 AM PST up reply actions   0 recs

Not me...
Everytime there is a routine flyball to HGH Jr I promptly yell, "2 hands!" since that dropped flyball!  First impressions!  
Stop swinging at balls out of the zone!

by K3YEROUT on Dec 12, 2007 7:50 PM PST up reply actions   0 recs

yes
a very thrilling roller coaster. touche on the dropped catch haha i forgot about that one.
"I love this british shit!" -Lou Brown

by jtkelly86 on Dec 12, 2007 1:12 PM PST up reply actions   0 recs

HERE! HERE!
If I hear the word "red sox"...POW!!! RIGHT IN THE KISSER!!!

by Halofanatic on Dec 11, 2007 5:02 PM PST reply actions   0 recs

I like the Hunter signing...
A lot.

I hate! the GMJ jr. signing.  

As many of us mentioned last year; we should just wait a year and sign Hunter.

In lieu of all these outfield signings, our think our team is a lot better than last year.  Do I think we win the WS, no, we will a game in the playoffs, yes.

by cupie on Dec 11, 2007 7:34 PM PST reply actions   0 recs

Anyone find it ironic. . .
that we signed GMJ last year and opened season against Texas. This year we sign THunter and open season against Minnesota.

by krush40 on Dec 11, 2007 8:53 PM PST reply actions   0 recs

hmmm......that is an interesting note.
=/
If I hear the word "red sox"...POW!!! RIGHT IN THE KISSER!!!

by Halofanatic on Dec 11, 2007 8:56 PM PST reply actions   0 recs

Hunter
How is signing Hunter worse than signing a washed up, over rated, expensive, and unproductive closer that is Eric Gagne?  I respect Gagne for what he has done but for $10 million i would rather pass on him.  Hell I'd rather have Kevin Gregg over him any day.

by docescobar07 on Dec 11, 2007 10:20 PM PST reply actions   0 recs

I remember ESPN...
saying at the time that the signing of Escobar was the worst offseason move when it happened. LOL. That's turned out pretty well. So, I'm not worried about the Hunter signing.

by 10 27 02 on Dec 11, 2007 11:22 PM PST reply actions   0 recs

Classic
I recall that too!

by Rev Halofan on Dec 11, 2007 11:42 PM PST up reply actions   0 recs

Stoneman has always been great with pitching
but he also has always been offensively challenged.

by LosAngel on Dec 13, 2007 6:35 AM PST up reply actions   0 recs

damn those east coast biased writers from
ESPN...the buster olney's and the peter gammon's....damn them!
If I hear the word "red sox"...POW!!! RIGHT IN THE KISSER!!!

by Halofanatic on Dec 12, 2007 9:43 AM PST reply actions   0 recs

Remember Catfish Hunter????
If I recall, he signed a multi-year contract for $3mm with the NYY. At the time, the press was bowled over....."We will never see such a contract again".......

by SocalAngelFaninOC on Dec 12, 2007 9:57 AM PST reply actions   0 recs

The Contract
Most sophisticated analysis I have seen says Hunter's contract is in line with about what he would get elsewhere.  Yes by the end of it he'll suck, but that's life.

The real problem is the GMJ contract.  We could have been bounced in round 1 without him, and if we hadn't already wasted 50M on CF, then the Hunter contract would be just fine.

Artie's got the money, and I believe Hunter was the best choice to spend it on this offseason.

by elricsi on Dec 12, 2007 11:15 AM PST reply actions   0 recs

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