Breaking Down Tigers Trade

by Angel Aviator on Dec 9, 2007 1:37 AM PST Comment 15 comments

As we all know by now the Angels got beat by Detroit on the bidding war for Miguel Cabrera, and what ended up also including Dontrelle Willis.

The question here is why would J. Santana be the better trade for the Angels. There is talk here that Weaver, Willits, Adenhart maybe even Wood would go in this trade to acquire J. Santana. When you look at what Detroit gave up for the 2 players it isn't much after Miller and Maybin.

27 yr old C Mike Rabelo .256/.300/.357 in 51 games for the big club

24 yr old P Burke Badenhop a 19th round pick out of college who has only 18 innings pitched above A ball

23 yr old P Eulogio de la Cruz who posted a 6.75 ERA in just under 7 inn for the Tigers last year. Who has posted a 16-16 record with 32 SV over a 6 year period in the minors.

21 yr old P Dallas Trahern a 33rd round draft choice in 2004 and maybe the best minor leaguer of the deal but who has only 6 innings pitched above AA.

In the day(s) after the trade Detroit was crucified here for depleting the farm system, and I argued that wasn't the case. I think you can see that these other players included in the trade were not big draft choices and aren't players that figured into the teams success any time soon. Lets not forget that Detroit did not acquire two players that are on the downside in age (24,25)or skills.

I personally believe that the Angels could have pulled this deal off giving up Kendrick and Santana and Mathis while including a mid level (OF) prospect along with some lower level pitching prospect. I mean thats what the Tigers did to acquire Cabrera and Willis. Had the Angels did this your looking at making a strong rotation of Lackey,Escobar,Weaver,Garland,Willis and Saunders.

Sure there are those that would die if Howie was gone, and some that would question the back up catcher choices Wilson and Budde, but forever the club has raved about the depth they have in catching. Lets use it then. This trade would have made better since in the fact that you would be adding run production for years to come while also adding another strong LHP to the rotation. These 2 players could be signed for close to the 25-30 mill a year you would be locking up in Santana.
Giving you a team on the field that looked something like this
C - Napoli
1B - Kotch
2B - Figgins (natural position)
SS - Isturiz / Wood / Aybar
3B - MCab
LF - GMJ
CF - Hunter
RF - Vlad
DH - GA

Bench: Rivera, Willits, Wilson, and
Pitching: Lackey,Escobar,Weaver,Garland,Willis and Saunders.
Pen: F-Rod,Shields,Speier,Oliver, Bootcheck/Moseley.

This Fan-Post is authored by an independent fan. Tell us what you think and how you feel.

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Minor league stats

aren't everything.

I'll take Baseball-America's word for it when they say that the prospects were ranked #s 1, 3, 7, and 11 in their entire system...since I'm no expert on the Tigers' farm system. Obviously there is something to them.

by Caseys Kiss of Death on Dec 9, 2007 1:50 AM PST reply actions 0 recs

Agree

But as you know a lot of people here have used the Angel minor league stats to project the Aybars, McPherson's and Woods along with others.

Miller and Maybin are the top prospects and the others are a guess. I have been reading BA for about 20+ years and they aren't always right. There evaluations are not always that good. Hate when they do it with the HS kids before the draft also. Not to mention a lot of money was not sunk into the other players through the draft. As I said they got 2 for sure players with WS experience and production that can be corner stones to build off for years to come.

by Angel Aviator on Dec 9, 2007 2:42 PM PST up reply actions 0 recs

Remember

All Florida has to do is a field a team and the owner makes money from the welfare state of the other owners.

So players like Santana were less important because Ervin is closer to arbitration. If any of those Single A guys floats as a regular .250 hitter in 2 years, that gives the MArlins 4 years of a league minimum player at said position.

The trade was NOT about projecting a player's ceiling - it was about career projections of their base as a major leaguer in terms of length playing league average (or slightly below) ball.

by Rev Halofan on Dec 9, 2007 2:07 AM PST reply actions 0 recs

And hey

if they accidentally win a couple world titles along the way, all the more power to them!

Reminds me a lot of 'Major League', where the team wins in spite of the owner trying to build the team to barely be able to compete...except instead of moving the team TO Florida, they're trying to LEAVE Florida.

by Caseys Kiss of Death on Dec 9, 2007 3:11 AM PST up reply actions 0 recs

With that

thought then you could send lesser value/prospect to the Marlins then........right?

Here what your saying, but the point of the original post is the Angels could have been in this deal had they truly wanted too.

The other point is J. Santana isn't the answer. 25+ mill a year for a pitcher is way to rich. Money is better spent on position players or resigning some of the current players.

by Angel Aviator on Dec 9, 2007 2:47 PM PST up reply actions 0 recs

And so the Halos did

offer a better package (Kendrick, Mathis, one of Saunders/Santana/Adenhart, plus a lower-level prosect) and Florida went with the lesser offer, by your estimation.

Tells me that Fla. cared more about service time than anything else. Nothing the Angels could do about that.

by jjackflash on Dec 9, 2007 11:36 PM PST up reply actions 0 recs

Nah

No talk ever hit that Willis was also part of the deal. The sticking point was Adenhart.

So like I said offer up a little more and make that happen with the roster like it is Santana/ Saunders are going to fight for innings along with the others.

No innings available for Adenhart. Only way there is ever innings is if those that are already signed are not renewed once their contracts expire.

2008 Staff
Lackey 29 yrs, Escobar 32 yrs, Weaver 25 yrs, Garland 28 yrs, Willis 26 yrs, and who ever is left (Santana 25 yrs/Saundrs 27yrs) after the trade would have rounded out the starting staff with one of those 2 working out of the pen more then likely.

So where are the innings for the others with this young staff? Last year these 7 pitchers totaled 1250+ inn pitched. Angels totaled as a team 1435 inn pitched. So where are the innings for a guy like Adenhart even if you trade away Santana (150inn) or Saunders (107inn)? Remember Escobar has a young arm in the since he may be entering his 32 yr but he has avg 150 inn or less over his career due to being a bullpen guy early on.

by Angel Aviator on Dec 10, 2007 1:30 AM PST up reply actions 0 recs

Makes No Sense

In the original diary, you argue that Detroit's package was nothing special. By your estimation, what the Angels offered for Cabrera alone was better than what Detroit gave up for both him and Willis. Thus, why should the Angels have offered even more, when they made what by your estimation was a better offer anyways?

It's rarely wise to bid against oneself.

by jjackflash on Dec 10, 2007 10:25 AM PST up reply actions 0 recs

Here's what you said:

I personally believe that the Angels could have pulled this deal off giving up Kendrick and Santana and Mathis while including a mid level (OF) prospect along with some lower level pitching prospect.

The point being, the Angels were offering Kendrick, Mathis and either Santana or Adenhart, PLUS a lower tier prospect just for Cabrera, which is what you are saying they should have done.

by jjackflash on Dec 10, 2007 10:30 AM PST up reply actions 0 recs

Not True

I say they could have pulled this deal off (referring to Cabrera/Willis) using the players spoken about and a few other lower level guys.

The Angels could not get past the fact they would have to give up both Santana and Adenhart. According to reports they had agreed to Kendrick, Mathis, and one (Santana/Adenhart)or the other but not both for just MCab.

I say if Willis was in the deal then I am fine giving up Adenhart if that was the sticking point and then a lower level guy.

by Angel Aviator on Dec 10, 2007 11:00 AM PST up reply actions 0 recs

why are we still doing this?

it's over. what's the point of dwelling on what might have been?

detroit's farm wasn't just depleted because of this one trade, it was this trade plus the one for renteria plus the one for sheffield.

"it's mind-bottling."

by retrohalo on Dec 9, 2007 3:05 PM PST reply actions 0 recs

Sheffield and Renteria trades

Had already depleted their minor league depth.

Um.........

by hauldog on Dec 9, 2007 4:32 PM PST reply actions 0 recs

The System

The minor leagues is in place to help the big team win thats the bottom line. If your worry is they will not compete at the minor league level with the teams they have in place thats a laugh. The minor leagues is for development. If they win that is all the better. With the trade it has done what it was designed to do. Strengthen the big league club, and in this case for not just a year or 2 but with 2 solid big leaguers now entering their 25 and 26 yr old season.

The Tiger system through the Renteria trade and this past trade have managed to hold onto the top pitching prospects at the AAA level

25 yr old Virgil Vasquez 12-5 3.47 less hits then inn pitched while walking only 33 striking out 127 WHIP 1.11

20 yr old Ronald Chiavacci 12-6 3.39 less hits then inn pitched walking 43 striking out 127
WHIP 1.26

If you want to go into the Sheffield trade one of the pitchers traded started the year as a 23 yr old in A ball managing to make it to AA pitching 54 inn in a relief role not saving games.

Another who I saw pitch a lot as a college player was 9-8 in A ball making a token start for the AAA club as the big league team scrambled to fill its pitching problems with Stewart, Joba, and Hughes being called up to the big club.

As for the 3rd pitcher I saw him pitch as a HS player and what a day that was. South Bronx HS can be an adventure......anyway he blew up and had Tommy John surgery. Never logged one inning in 2007

Each year the draft is held to help clubs reestablish their minor league system. There comes a time were you play the guys or trade them but you can't hoard them.

To question how a guy like Dave Dombrowski can make deals like this is comical. Your talking about a guy that built the Expos farm system into one of the best. The same guy that built the Marlins into a winner with FA signings and trades. The same guy that when he was forced to trade those same players managed to get players back that would be impact players in the 2003 WS win trading
M. Manti for B.Penny,
Kevin Brown for Derrek Lee,
Al Leiter for A.J. Burnett,
Edgar Renteria for Braden Looper, and Pablo Ozuna,
Trading 3 nobody's away for Mike Lowell.
Also signing amateur free agents Luis Castillo,Alex Gonzalez, and pulling the trigger on guys like Beckett who's $$ demand's scared off a lot of people in the draft. 21 of the 25 players on the 2006 post season roster joined the Tigers under Dombrowski's watch. His track record is solid and he is considered one of the best GM's.

Yet there are those that will stand by Stoneman and now Reagins. Whats so funny is some of the key players in the Angels WS win are players that the Angels already had in place before Stoneman ever was GM. Guys like Salmon,GA,Percy,Erstad, and Glaus had already made impacts with the club. Guys like Lackey, Washburn, Schoeneweis, Shields, Molina brothers, Palmeiro, Ortiz, Rodriguez were already in the system before his arrival. So to think the current Angel GM has any idea of how to put together a trade or a winner is laughable.

The Angels got scorched, or should I say in the Del Taco language EL Scorcho.........

by Angel Aviator on Dec 10, 2007 12:53 AM PST reply actions 0 recs

Aviator:

That last major paragraph is very telling, and worth pondering.

Still, you need to acknowledge some insight in building a Team with the acquisitions of Vlad, Colon (while it lasted), Rivera, Escy, and WTY.

by SocalAngelFaninOC on Dec 10, 2007 8:52 AM PST up reply actions 0 recs

Things is

those players you mention did not win the big trophy. They have or in Colon's case managed to help the team be competitive (win more then lose). Point was a lot of the key ingredients were already in place. I will acknowledge the biggest move he made was the hiring of the manager.

by Angel Aviator on Dec 10, 2007 10:12 AM PST reply actions 0 recs