but….

when an outfielder dives for a ball in the outfield, or falls from the result of increased effort to track down a ball – IF he drops the ball in contact with the ground, the result is not an out.

With the same argument, one could say that the ground caused Willits to drop the ball in the bottom of the ninth on the line.

I see no difference, and I maintain that he should have been called safe.

i said it last night, and I’ll say it again. on a squeeze with the runner potentially getting nailed, if the batter misses, he needs to lean into the ball and at least “dead ball” the play.

 i was talking to a guy that is an ump and he said the rule is if you get to the ground with possession runner is out. that didnt happen he would have called him safe.

its like a play at the plate, the initial contact ( in the collision tags him out) but if the crash and the ground jar the ball loose the baserunner is safe. how is this not applicable to third?

bottom line we didnt execute!

Soth should have argued his f’ing ass off. I can’t believe he let that call go with very little chatter.

We should have been watching another game today, rooting for the BETTER team.

Willits was out.

We lost.

The season is over.

Spring Training starts in 6 months.

I thought he was out. Varitek held onto the ball for quite awhile before it fell out. I do think the umpires should have conferred, but the third base ump had the best view. Never would have happened if Aybar had put his bat on the ball.

“APPROVED RULING: (1) If the impact of a runner breaks a base loose from its position, no play can be made on that runner at that base if he had reached the base safely.
APPROVED RULING: (2) If a base is dislodged from its position during a play, any following runner on the same play shall be considered as touching or occupying the base if, in the umpire’s judgment, he touches or occupies the point marked by the dislodged bag.”

some have mentioned how it is like a play at the plate and it really isn’t. Willits never tried to jar the ball away from Varitek. He tagged Willits and its an out.

I think its horseshit to blame the umps on this one.

Aybar couldn’t lay the bunt down. That’s the real problem. Hell, he couldn’t even make contact!

Aybar=Poor execution.

In the NFL the the ground cannot cause a fumble.

Man on first, Halos on defense, 0 outs.

Batter lines a shot down the first base line as Tex was covering the 1B bag to protect for a pickoff throw. The runner is caught off the bag, and freezes. Tex, while in the air after diving to his left, CATCHES THE LINE DRIVE. Then, before he reaches the ground, he tags the baserunner who is still off the base. Finally, as Tex lands on the ground, the ball is jarred loose by the impact and rolls free.

Is the batter safe by the reasoning in the thread above because Tex did not complete the catch when he impacted the ground?

Is the runner out by the reasoning above because Tex made the tag on the runner as a play independent from catching the line drive?

It would not be reasonable to conclude that the runner is out because of the tag, if the ruling is that possession of the ball is not complete until Tex survives the landing with the ball intact.

Nor would it be reasonable to conclude that the batter is safe as a result of the dropped ball, if it is presumed that Tex had possession and control enough to tag the baserunner out.

Either BOTH the batter and the baserunner are safe (assuming they subsequently advance to the next base) based on the final fact that Tex dropped the ball on impact, OR, BOTH are OUT based on the fact that Tex was ruled in possession when he made the tag.

In the first case, the implication is that the ruling in the game last night was wrong. The defender must retain possession of the ball after impact in order to record a compelted play. In the second case, the implication is that the rulebook is wrong. The defender is ruled to be in possession of the ball while still airborne.

Since, by definition, the rulebook cannot be wrong, the correct answer is that the ruling on the field was wrong. The only way out of this is that I know that somewhere in the rule book there is some rule that declares that we cannot have non-sensical situations in the game, and the umps (I believe) are free to use common sense and come to a fair decision not explicitly defined.

Varitek lunged … ended up into a dive to tag Willits. If you are diving to tag someone, I feel you should hold onto that ball when you hit the ground. It’s like ruling Ortiz was out in game 2 because Willits caught the ball, then dropped it after a few seconds in a slow motion replay. Safe or not, who knows if that run would have scored, and whether or not it would have been enough to win that game.

Game 5 would have probably been just like the rest, sloppy fielding and poor hitting. Considering the Angels had some momentum after game 3, they came right back out and played like dooky.

Just looking at a snapshot of all the teams right now, the Angels were playing the worst baseball, can’t win a championship like that.

The squeeze just prevented anyone from eventual heart failure or stroke in the ALCS

We lost to Boston….again.

Aybar is pathetic.

We traded Cabrera for a guy that didn’t even pitch in the post-season. OC gets that bunt down.

Go rip the head off your rally monkey…..it’ll make you feel better.

Imagine this: A runner going to first. The first baseman gets pulled off the bag and has to dive to tag the runner out. As he’s falling, the runner touches first. Then, he hits the ground, the ball squirts out. The runner, in that situation, is going to get ruled safe every time. Every time.

Willits was safe, but it doesn’t matter. Aybar needs to interfere with that play.

BUT it was the wrong call. Like people mentioned already, when you dive for a fly ball and you drop it when you hit the floor, the ball is still in play and the person is not out.

When A catcher is hit at the plate he must hold onto the ball and show the ump he still has it when the play is over.

He was OUT but should have been Safe.

A TAG is the action of a fielder in touching a base with his body while holding the
ball securely and firmly in his hand or glove; or touching a runner with the ball, or with his
hand or glove holding the ball, while holding the ball securely and firmly in his hand or
glove.

Willits was tagged while Varitek was falling towards third base. As he hit the ground, the ball came out. If he was holding the ball securely and firmly, the ball would not have come out. This is not the NFL, the ground can cause the ball to come out, look at outfield catches as reference.

Also I found the next quote on another forum. I am not sure where the poster got this from but if this is really what the rulebook says, Willits should have been safe.

A tag [2.00] occurs when the ball is live and a fielder has the ball in is hand or glove (or both) and
(a) a base is touched by his person, or
(b) a runner is touched by any part of the glove/ball, hand/ball, or glove/hand/ball combination

Such fielder must have complete control of the ball during and after the touch. If the fielder bobbles or drops the ball during or after the touch of the base or runner, and the bobble or drop is due to his lack of control of himself or the ball, or due to contact with a runner, it is not a tag. A fielder shows complete control by

(a) regaining control of his own body after extenuating efforts to make a tag, and
(b) showing that his release of the ball is VOLUNTARY AND INTENTIONAL

The northeast is charmed after years of disaster. They deserve it. Let them have their run…then they will become punching bags again, maybe playing 2nd fiddle to the Rays.

Yep. Still out.

From The Rules of Professional Baseball by Jaksa and Roder Thirteen present Major League umpires (recognized in "Acknowledgements") began their rules instruction with The Rules of Professional Baseball as umpire school novices. All thirteen have acknowledged the pivotal role that the manual played (and continues to play) in their careers. Many professional umpires who attended the Wendelstedt or Evans umpire schools found their way to this manual through their colleagues who attended Brinkman’s school, and benefited as well.

The Rules of Professional Baseball employs methodology that would be considered standard in any technical manual or course. Rules and their related concepts are presented with painstaking attention to details of language. For instance, a “catch” very specifically means “catch” of an airborne batted ball (or airborne pitched ball) for an out; to be distinguished from “gloving” the ball-gaining possession of any throw, or a batted or pitched ball that is no longer airborne. Since every word has a specific meaning, confusion is averted when the terms are used in examples or related rules. Also, similar concepts are presented together. For example, “catch” (for an out) and “tag” (of a runner or base for an out) have identical requirements; the fielder must gain complete control and show voluntary release of the ball in completing the catch or tag. Concepts that are directly opposed are also presented in tandem, such as ball versus strike, safe versus out, fair versus foul, interference versus not interference, and so on. Such methods of simplification and organization greatly enhance the process of learning and recall, which is of vital importance when a quick ruling is needed in the heat of the contest.