Dave Campbell Outraged!
by BoulderBrian on Oct 7, 2008 3:38 PM PDT
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PrintI know this has already kind of been discussed in the "Was Willits Safe?" thread but I just wanted to emphasis exactly what Dave Campbell said and put all of the links regarding this in one easy to find location. This morning on Mike and Mike Dave Campbell explained exactly why a) Willits should have been called safe and how b) because this occurred to the angels the media is not making a big deal about it. I wanted to start a new thread so everyone can see exactly what he said, since he has no affiliation with the Angels (you can click on his name above to see his wikipedia page to learn more about him) and is one of the top baseball guys at ESPN Radio.
You can listen to it for yourself using the following link:
For ESPN insiders (I think its free so you might not have to be an insider)
For Non-Insiders you can listen to it through todays Mike and Mike Podcast (8:46 through 15:35): http://sports.espn.go.com/espnradio/player?context=podcast&id=3630374
You can see the play at this link: http://losangeles.angels.mlb.com/media/video.jsp?mid=200810073600013
Mike Scioscia's reaction: http://losangeles.angels.mlb.com/media/video.jsp?mid=200810073600375
Some highlights from this 9 minute radio piece:
- If the same situation occurs with a collision at home plate-- Willits is safe. "You have to give up the ball voluntarily."
- If an outfielder catches a ball on the warning track, continues to run, hits the wall, falls to the ground, and then drops the ball: the batter is safe.
- Tim Welke did not see the entire play. The LF umpire (Bill Miller) was right on top of the play. "At the absolute worst the umpires should have gotten together and conferred on it, and talked about it... "
- "Ed Hocculi could have gotten off last night." [Refering to the Chargers blown call]
- "If this had happened to the Red Sox, the Boston Globe would have had a 9 foot headline how the Red Sox got screwed on this."
- "If this had happened in NY or to the Red Sox this would be watergate 3"
Neither of the first two bullets are what happened last night, but the MLB rule book is very ambiguous about what the call should be. Instead of being clear, the rule book says it is a judgment call. To make a judgment call, you use similar situations and react accordingly. The point Campbell makes is that Tim Welke (the umpire involved) did not keep his eye on Varitek, as you can see in the video of the play, and therefore should have at the very least conferred with the LF umpire or other infield umpires. He did neither.
I give huge props to Dave Campbell for standing up for the angels. Most of ESPN wouldn't have the balls to since many people there are either Red Sox fanatics or just don't want the backlash that would be accompanied by this type of statement. He is exactly right about how this would have been a huge outrage if the situation had occured to a NY team or the Red Sox. What a great way to have our season end (sarcasm) and not even give us a chance to steal this back in a game 5. Unbelievable ****ing believable.
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i'm more outraged about that called third strike on Tex
in the 5th with runners at the corner on a 2-2 count. That was ridiculus.
Either way, can’t do anything about it. i’m done crying. got to move on and look to the future. too painful going back.
Go Angels!
yea I am upset about that too
but with that type of play the umpire can not go talk to the other umpires to get a more informed opinion of what the call should be. The strike zone was inconsistent for both teams unfortunately.
Uhhh, and the missed called 3rd strike on Varitek b4 he singled to make it first and third...
Whodathunk we would be rooting for a former Ranger come August, er September, er October...? Miss ya Kotch, but Tex is THE man!
Brian,
You know the game and series is over. There is no going back. The Halos did not finish.
"why do you we still have quitlin?" -VladdyG
I was gonna type a big long comment about this.
But you are right cupie.
The Los Angeles Angels of Anaheim, Specializing in maniac-ball since 2000
i know, I agree Cupie
but it sucks to end the season like that with out any outrage. As Campbell said, had the tables been turned we would never hear the end of it from the Boston Globe and other east coast media (the Delgado HR call in NY lead to instant replay because their media spoke out). Unfortunately, there is nothing I can do to bring attention to this other than make a post on here, but something needs to be done so stuff like this cannot occur.
Had the call gone our way (there is no correct call which is the problem imo), I believe we would be playing tomorrow night in Anaheim, but this is completely speculative. MLB needs to clean up these “judgment” based calls like the NFL has started to do (the forced out of bounds rule for example) so this cannot happen again. Talking about it is the only way anything can happen. Thank you Dave Campbell for bring attention to this call.
He looked out to me
Tek held that ball for awhile after the tag. It wasn’t like Willits knocked it out. I suppose we need an outlet for our disappointment (God knows I’ve been playing that missed bunt in my head all day long), but I’m not sure this is the right place.
You’re right that bigger markets would have made a huge deal about it, but they would have been wrong too. I respect Campbell’s opinion (I think he’s a great color guy), but from my vantage point, Willits was out.
I feel the need, the need...for speed!
The tag and him hitting the ground was all one motion
Him tagging Willits and then hitting the ground was a continuation. It’s not like he took 3 steps in between. If it’s a play at the plate there is no doubt he gets called safe if Varitek goes to the ground and drops the ball.
"the ground cannot cause a fumble"
Gorby, you are spot on! No, this was not football. The rules for a baseman (NOT a catcher) apply at third base. Varitek made the tag and the out before the ground caused him to drop the ball. The ump got the call right. Clearly the better team won. Lackey can say whatever he wants, but he has not won a post season game since 2002. John has pitched well in 4 of his 6 post season starts after WS Game 7 in 2002.
Bigger Markets?
Don’t they know that Arte changed the name and Los Angeles is a bigger market then Boston? Come on this is the Los Angeles Angels of Anaheim…………..Sarcasm……….sigh………….
Funnier yet is when they interviewed Jason Bay he said he was really happy to get the win because he didn’t want to get on a plane and go back to Anaheim……..That LA Angels thing is going over well isn’t it.
Willie Mays Aikens is FREeeeeeeee
by Angel Aviator on Oct 8, 2008 10:38 AM PDT up reply actions
um
why wouldn’t bay say he didn’t want to go back to anaheim? Angels stadium IS in anaheim.
"Here we go baby, 'bout f***'n' time!"
No kidding!!!
Anaheim isn’t in Los Angeles. Last I checked it was Orange County. Players in the league still think of the Angels as being the team in Anaheim. I never have been able to call them anything but California Angels.
Willie Mays Aikens is FREeeeeeeee
by Angel Aviator on Oct 9, 2008 4:10 PM PDT up reply actions
I agree...
The Angels got hosed on that call as usual. And the call on Tex, Lackey wouldn’t have gotten in a hundred years. What made it worse that the pitch before he called it a ball. Tex knows the strikezone, if you call it a strike he’ll adjust to a big zone, but that pos umpire called it a ball and then called it a strike. Whoever is in charge of the umpires, that computerized ball/strike system that is suppose to reign in bad umpires and get more consistency, I have words for ya, it’s not working.
How long will it be before we find out 3 of the umps had Red Sox season seats like last time lol. I still can’t believe MLB allowed umpires to umpire a series to which they had season tickets. Yea that’s not biased at all.
Just because the accepted the tickets
doesn’t mean they USED them!!!!
I never saw any conflict of interest
If GA wasn't so Lazy, I'd have something clever here.
by TheTypingFiend on Oct 7, 2008 8:19 PM PDT up reply actions
Willits was safe
And we should be upset, and stay upset.
If we don’t make a stand on all this injustice (every bad call against us), we will never gain the respect that a great team deserves. We should always stay mad at these plays. Be it Eddings, that White Sox guy, the strike zone, or this. Bad calls like this, steal from us. If we don’t stay upset it will happen again, and again. We will be pushovers, and the officials will never have to work hard during our games again. Knowing that we let these things happen to us, and that we don’t care that it happens to us.
I know that it is over, and there is nothing that can change things. But I want respect. And to get it takes more than what Sosh did. Less then 30 seconds of getting the call explained to him. Then walking away. It wasn’t balls and strikes he was arguing. It was a blown call. Sosh should have went out there call the ump a cocksucah, get tossed, argue for an unbelievable amount of time (long enough for the Nation to start to worry about work the next day), toss some gear on the field, etc., etc, But basically light a fire under the Angels ass. I felt if we scored again we win no matter what, and the ump couldn’t squeeze the Kzone anymore. But we didn’t score, Sosh did the polite thing and agreed with the ump. And we have less respect than before.
What size of blinders are the leaders of the Los Angeles Angels of Anaheim wearing? Every other fan from every other team hates us. Outside of the OC we are few and hard to find. Not many new ones either. I hear more “I was a fan”, or “I hate” then “Go Halos”.
Loosing to the Red Sox is not a problem to me. They are a good/great team. Defending World Series Champions, not ready to give up the title yet. Loosing the way we did by not putting up a fight whenever you should, is.
Winning humbly = BULLSHIT
Don’t disrespect another team while winning, but act anyway you want with your own.
Loosing politely = One long winter with no respect
Always put up a fight to keep your respect, always.
But first we need to earn some.
yea it's always felt Scioscia has been horrible at standing up for the Angels
The Red Sox last year hit Vlad and HK high and inside and NOTHING ever happened, IIRC that was even what hurt Howie’s hand. But Soth has some stupid no retaliation policy which is basically a no respect let the other team walk all over us philosophy.
I have always wondered if his passivism
is what leads umps to break so many close calls at Angels Stadium for the visiting team.
Francisco Rodriguez: 2006 to Present: 149 saves. 5 Panthers. As fabulous as Pride, Romero, Gregg, Budde and Dino Ebel combined.
safe
yeah Dave C makes some damn good points which convinced me he was safe. as for the comment above. Um….Soc…has been thrown out numerous times. I think he stands up alot.
by BryanHarvey'sMoustache on Oct 7, 2008 7:44 PM PDT reply actions
He may just know when to pick his fights
Though getting tossed on that call may have lit a fire under the teams’ asses.
It’s not like there was much to lose.
If GA wasn't so Lazy, I'd have something clever here.
by TheTypingFiend on Oct 7, 2008 8:22 PM PDT up reply actions
This is a systemic problem
Umpires know scrutiny is high for east coast teams and judge accordingly.
I believe this is because
The west coast has better weather so the rabid baseball fans have the option to go to the beaches, malls, out door pavilions whereas the cold miserable existence that is the northeast is only conducive to drunk douchebags and baseball watching.
Also hi I’m drunk…still.
Driven into right-center field, Erstad says he has it...the Angels, world champions!
again, voluntarily give up the ball he did not, see the ball bouncing into left field
I’d say, safe
Re-sign Tex!
Salt in the wounds
I feel sick to my stomach all over again
I'm your huckleberry
by autry's cowboys on Oct 8, 2008 8:49 AM PDT up reply actions
Sorry...
wasn’t meant to be a reminder, just trying to make it easier to determine what happened.
(But I know what you mean)
I was uncool before uncool was cool.
LOL
I know man….its cool
I'm your huckleberry
by autry's cowboys on Oct 8, 2008 12:28 PM PDT up reply actions
sadly
no matter what good of points dave campbell made, that video shows me he was out. its sort of like the glove to hand transfer play, when the outfielder bobbbles it as he’s getting the ball out of his glove
We can't look at the standings. If we play the way we are capable of playing, we will reach our goal." Mike Scioscia
by AnaheimHalos61 on Oct 8, 2008 12:45 PM PDT up reply actions
maybe fast motion
wud help.
Go gettem next year, what have we got to lose--Frankie?
by AnaheimHalos61 on Oct 8, 2008 8:28 PM PDT up reply actions
The funny thing in all this
is we were subjected to the great Buck Martinez (http://www.baseball-reference.com/m/martibu01.shtml) talking about how Captain Catcher had this catchers mitt with the special pocket he liked because it allowed for him to make the tag with out having the ball pop out.
Great insight by TBS once again.
With that said……….He is out……….that was the call.
Willie Mays Aikens is FREeeeeeeee
So thats what that was all about.
I kept TBS on mute because I was tired of listening to the blowhards talk about how amazing the Sux are. I couldn’t figure out why they were focusing on the goddamn glove every other pitch.
Driven into right-center field, Erstad says he has it...the Angels, world champions!
True story
they kept taling about the pocket of it and how he had it loose and went into a big discussion about it
Willie Mays Aikens is FREeeeeeeee
by Angel Aviator on Oct 8, 2008 3:55 PM PDT up reply actions
Why does weird shit like this have to happen
I do not want to think about this again.
The Angels may have beat them 8 times in a row, but winning three before they do is all that matters.
isn't that the basis of baseball? Good calls vs bad calls?
it’s over. Even if Willits was safe there is absolutely NO guarantee that anyone would have hit him in. Or that he could have done a repeat squeeze. There was what, an average of 11 LOBs? Not a great number for the betting person to place a wager on that one
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