Sign Manny and Wigginton when Tex goes to Boston
by NewportHalo on Dec 15, 2008 11:43 PM PST
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PrintThat would give the Halos a lineup of :
Figgy
Howie
Manny
Vlad
Torri
Wiggy
Mathis
Morales
Aybar
My buddy ran the projections using Marcel projections. That lineup would score 5.35 runs a game and 863 over the course of the season. If the Halos could swing the Peavy deal that has been talked about, this team easily wins the West and gets another shot to roll the dice come October. I certainly hope the Halos can get Tex but this lineup is actually pretty good and looking possible. If you put Willits in the OF and Tex at 1B, the projections say the Halos score 858 runs.
There are a lot of off the field issues with Manny, but as a hitter I've watched him beat the Angels too many times not to want to see him in the lineup.
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Wood?
I don’t see him being league average at his position. Pretty unlikely. A guy like Wiggy in his prime would be a big upgrade.
by NewportHalo on Dec 15, 2008 11:51 PM PST up reply actions
A guy like Wiggy...
…was just released by the Astros who are not as deep as us at 3b or LF.
Meanwhile Wood is on the front burner of every other GM’s trade requests… I think the pro’s see Wood as being better than league average at his position and the pro’s see Wiggy as having peaked. And then there is the salary issue…
by Rev Halofan on Dec 16, 2008 12:28 AM PST up reply actions
come on
That was a financial decision. Wiggy had an OPS+ of 128 last year and stood to make big money in arbitration. He is 31 and in his prime. If you can get him on a 3 year deal (31,32,33), that would be a very good deal for the Angels and would significantly less than Dunn.
Just for reference, Wiggy’s OPS+ from last year would place him fourth on the team behind Vlad (130), Napoli (148), and Tex (180). It was a career year for Wiggy and I’d guess he regresses slighty but even with an OPS+ of 115, he is still very valuable.
As for Wood, the projections make him look like a worse version of Kevin Kouzmanoff. I think the Angels have a relatively small window and they need to jump through it in the next couple of years before it is time to rebuild.
What happens when you sign a 30+ OF after he has a fluke year?
Gary Matthews, Jr., that’s what happens.
Wiggington’s career high in OPS+ until last year was 112. For his career, he’s at 105. He’s 31 years old, will be comparatively expensive, and certainly cannot play shortstop.
And what’s this nonsense about rebuilding? We had the best starting rotation in team history last year, and none was a day over 30. The DP combo of Kendrick, already a proven .300 hitter, and Aybar, already the most talented defensive shortstop in the biz, will be 25 years old next year. A very promising backup combo of S-Rod and Wood (who will likely be ready to play 3B next year) will be 24. Napoli is just entering his prime, and Mathis is a talented defender even when he plays catch with Torii Hunter. Morales will also be a regular, and probably a regularly good, hitter beginning next year. Also: Arredondo, Jepsen, Thompson, and (the not-quite young) Bulger.
The outfield’s old, and that’s a serious issue, but Hunter’s in pretty good shape, and Vlad is a Hall of Fame talent who will likely still hit well for a few years in the DH slot.
This is a team that will be in the playoffs for at least four of the next five years. We have already engineered a historic youth movement while continuing to win, something that is very rare in baseball history.
by mattwelch on Dec 16, 2008 5:59 AM PST up reply actions 1 recs
Good argument
Just one thing:
Aybar, already the most talented defensive shortstop in the biz
That’s a bold statement.
White trashin' the 909
I said "talented," not yet "best"
He gets to more balls than anyone I’ve seen since Ozzie Smith, and with hands just as quick. Came in 6th in all of baseball in defensive Win Shares, despite playing only 98 games. If he learns to concentrate, and/or avoid too many cheap errors, he’ll be the best defender in a generation. And even if he doesn’t, he’s in the conversation.
saving a run is actually more valuable then scoring a run
at the end of last season, i wanted aybar gone and sold for a bucket of balls. Now i see his very high upside as a GG SS with a high BA and speed. He might even legitimately turn into a 15 HR guy. His OBP would be a concern, but his league best D at the toughest position really is irreplaceable (unreplaceable?)
Mr Moreno,
Please re-sign Tex.
Sincerely yours,
Halo fans everywhere
by anaheim angels on Dec 17, 2008 12:17 AM PST up reply actions
Aybar a 15 HR guy?
Put down the peace pipe man.
by Chzburger Jones on Dec 17, 2008 2:10 AM PST up reply actions
i could see him hitting around 10 a year
15 might be a little high
Kotch would've had that.
by howiestheman on Dec 17, 2008 9:31 AM PST up reply actions
Aybar
talented SS? yes. 10-15 hr/yr? no way.
kid's got some pop
and hes only 24.
i think 10 HRs/yr would be his ceiling, but it’s not out of the question
Kotch would've had that.
by howiestheman on Dec 17, 2008 10:53 AM PST up reply actions
Aybar
i just don’t think he has the body to grow into it. imagine if he actually does one season hit 10-15HR, he might think thats what he’s suppose to do and start hitting the ball in the air more instead of the ground and using his speed.
his line drive rate has steadily been increasing
and his HR/fly ball have been too. While 15 does seem a bit high, i dont think that its unattainable. although 8-12 seems more realistic, especially if he can stay healthy
Mr Moreno,
Please re-sign Tex.
Sincerely yours,
Halo fans everywhere
by anaheim angels on Dec 17, 2008 4:06 PM PST up reply actions
Wigginton wouldn't get 5 yrs/$55mm though.
by seamariners85 on Dec 16, 2008 8:23 AM PST up reply actions
Exactly
Wiggy is also a much better hitter than GMJ. He would cost significantly less than an Adam Dunn type of guy.
GMJ was a mistake the moment the contract was signed but that shouldn’t stop the Angels from pursuing role players (not bench guys), which Wiggy would be.
by NewportHalo on Dec 16, 2008 10:47 AM PST up reply actions
thanks matt
rare to get posts that are positive these days. Even better when it is factually correct and reasonable and without irrational “fan” comments.
The future is good with or without tex. You might even make the argument that sign tex to a 8 yr $20+M contract will be bad for the long-term success of th organization.
Go Angels!
Thanks for the nice words; don't agree about Teix
Barring serious injury, he’ll still be hitting the baseball hard at age 36, and believe me, $20 million then will not feel like $20 million now. Just think of Adrian Beltre’s contract — widely seen as crazy and over the top when it was inked; now he seems like a bargain at 3B, even though he never duplicated that breakout season. Salaries in Major League Baseball inflate much faster than the economy at large, and starting in about six months or so, the economy at large is going to inflate like crazy.
I messed up
The 858 number with Tex also had Wiggy in the lineup. It is 825 with only Tex and someone like Wood in the lineup. I have a headache now.
How much ya willing to pay Manny?
Angel Pitching, Angel Defense - get past that.
by vladtheimpaler on Dec 16, 2008 12:19 AM PST reply actions
only problem is defense
Tex is something like a 20 with his glove at first, and willits about a +5 in LF. With manny in LF well call him generously a -8, and Morales well call -2 at first, and Wiggington a -5 at third. The lineup sans tex and willits actually allows something like 40 more runs, actually making the better overall team the one with Tex and Willits (not to mention saving a run actually is more important than scoring one. For example, if the Angels score 863 runs, but allow 700 (697 last year) the angels win 97.7 games, wheras a team scoring 825 runs and giving up 660 runs (the runs allowed with Tex/Willits/Wood in) actualy wins 98.8 wins. And not only at less payroll (tex 21 M whereas Manny 21Wigginton 6+ peavy 11), but with greater eye to the future, as Wood should progress into a great hitter
Mr Moreno,
Please re-sign Tex.
Sincerely yours,
Halo fans everywhere
by anaheim angels on Dec 16, 2008 12:20 AM PST reply actions
That is a good point
Defense. I don’t really see Tex coming to the Halos and certainly not for 21 million but defense is a concern. Manny is an adventure at best and Vlad isn’t much better in Right. We all know the defense was pretty bad in the playoffs but part of that has to be attributed to injuries and lack of field time for Kendrick and youth with Aybar. I’d like to see the Halos in a position to DH Vlad some of the time and Manny some of the time if they were to get him.
As for Wood, the projections don’t look very good for him. He strikes out way too much. I hope I’m wrong on him but it seems like his value is at an all time low and that is justified.
Manny's defense
Everyone is concerned about Manny’s defense but something has to be said about playing the monster all those years being beneficial come playoff time right?
what happens then if we play in NY? or in Cle or Det or Chi?
His defense flat out is turrible. Saying it could help IF we play boston doesnt merit a contract so large.
Mr Moreno,
Please re-sign Tex.
Sincerely yours,
Halo fans everywhere
by anaheim angels on Dec 17, 2008 12:19 AM PST up reply actions
Boston seemed to be able to beat those teams with Manny in left.
Teixeira............Everything else can wait.
they also did it with david ortiz at DH
So if we get a great DH, we should get a defensive boost as well
Mr Moreno,
Please re-sign Tex.
Sincerely yours,
Halo fans everywhere
by anaheim angels on Dec 17, 2008 4:07 PM PST up reply actions
Jesus Christ
I was just pointing out that with Boston (Because it seemslike all we want to talk about on here), he’s familiar.
OMG, what if we played NY, CLE, CHI, or DET???!!! We’d be doomed! WTF, seriously. We’d be signing him for his bat, and bat only. Maybe they’d DH him. Who knows. His bat however, merit a contract so large smart guy.
im not saying that manny is bad
what im saying is that it makes no sense to sign him just because he “knows how to field off the monster”.
The debate whether he is worth 22 Mil a year is not one i am going to have right now
Lets go angels
by anaheim angels on Dec 18, 2008 5:32 PM PST up reply actions
Pigginton had one career year.
Big whoop. His career OPS+ is 105 with a career line of .270/.330/.460. He’s a right handed Garret Anderson who can also play 3B.
GA’s career numbers:
105 OPS+ @ .296/.327/.469
by Chzburger Jones on Dec 16, 2008 1:37 AM PST reply actions
So who would you sign?
The Angels need more guys who can get on base and even if he regresses to an OPS+ of 105, he would still be an asset.
by NewportHalo on Dec 16, 2008 10:41 AM PST up reply actions
The Angels
don’t need to be wasting money on mediocre players. If we lose out on Tex, sign Manny or Dunn and then give the kids a shot. Wigginton’s career OBP is .003 points higher than GA’s. I don’t like giving guys huge pay days based on one career year. That’s why the HGH Jr. signing was a disaster as mentioned above by somebody else.
by Chzburger Jones on Dec 16, 2008 1:44 PM PST up reply actions
Why is having a obp higher than GA a bad thing?
GA was a pretty good player in his prime. Wiggy is not as good as GA in his prime but GA is 36 years old and on the decline. Since 2005, GA has had an OPS+ over 105 once and Wiggy has done it every year.
At 7 or 8 million for the coming year he is a better value than GA at 36 and on the steep decline.
My point
was that GA’s OBP sucks and that Piggy’s OBP was basically the same. SAVE THE MONEY FOR A DIFFERENCE MAKER. Wigginton is a decent player, and nothing more. I’d rather let Kendry Morales and Brandon Wood develop instead of adding 30+ year old road block.
by Chzburger Jones on Dec 16, 2008 2:08 PM PST up reply actions
Why do you think Wood will be a decent player next season?
His projections are frightening and his AAA numbers are unimpressive. He hasn’t done anything in his MLB career. He is going to strike out a ton and as I said above, projects as a worse version of Kevin Kouzmanoff.
Please point out where I said Wood would be a decent player,
because I sure as hell can’t find it. The fact is that Wood will never get any better unless we start having some faith in him. If we just keep relegating him to part time duty and keep making him go back and forth between AAA and the bigs, he will always suck. Putting another road block is just going to hinder his development. I would advocate a road block if it was for an elite player such as Manny Ramirez. But we’re not talking about Manny Ramirez, we’re talking about Ty F’ing Wigginton.
by Chzburger Jones on Dec 16, 2008 2:57 PM PST up reply actions
you are totally 100% correct
In his 183 ABs in the big leagues, Wood has sucked. That means he will always suck. Dont even show that as a 23 year old he hit 4 HRs in very limited time in Sep/Oct (72 ABs) which translates to 33 HRs over 600 ABs (39 over 700) and that he will likely do much better than that if not next year, then the year after. And his .956 OPS and 31 HRs in 102 games in AAA also means hes crap. Trade him pronto for Gary Matthews III
Mr Moreno,
Please re-sign Tex.
Sincerely yours,
Halo fans everywhere
by anaheim angels on Dec 17, 2008 12:26 AM PST up reply actions 1 recs
How far up?
Ravech now has it somewhere between 22 and 28 mil. Not that far.
I don't know...I'm makin' this up as I go.
if that's true
i think you drop out.
i’m okay with $20-21MM, but any higher, and i say no thanks.
bring on Dunn and Peavy!
Kotch would've had that.
by howiestheman on Dec 16, 2008 8:50 AM PST up reply actions
I'd even go slightly higher
I don’t want it to become a long drawn out bidding war. But, I’d hate to see the Angels lose him just because Boston is willing to pay $1 million more. I don’t care for any of the plan B options by themselves. They may save money, but they don’t improve the offense enough. Even with Tex in the playoffs we got out hit. We need Tex back plus one of these plan B guys.
One thing that scares me though, Boston could have had A-Rod a few years back, but they didn’t go all out. I think that memory haunts them so they may dig a little deeper this time.
true. except teixeira is not A-rod
its one of the scariest elements of this bidding war, that Boras is convincing people he is.
Hes not gonna hit you 50 home runs, hit well over .300, steal bases or play a premium position like 3rd (or SS at A-rods first deal)
Mark is a great player, but hes not the best player in the league. Hes not albert pujols, hes not A-rod. He’d never played on a winning team until we brought him on.
If we lose out on teixeira, we can make a trade late by the deadline if we need to or wait til next years crop of free agents. People forget that new guys are available EVERY year and not for 200 million dollars
by ihearhowie2.0 on Dec 16, 2008 9:52 AM PST up reply actions 1 recs
Very True
I just hope if the Angels don’t land him, that neither does Boston. The Sox already have our number. I’d hate to imagine that team with Tex added.
could you imagine the boo's?
the first time he came here if he goes to boston? Scary
by ihearhowie2.0 on Dec 16, 2008 10:10 AM PST up reply actions
Actually there will be a mix of boos and cheers
Considering that half the stadium are filled with Red Sox fans
Good comparison/Great analysis
A pipeline of talent, welcome to Anaheim.
Karl Ravech
When was the last time he broke a story? Yeah, never.
Teixeira............Everything else can wait.
I am a huge Ravech fan. The people that share the desk with him at BBTN make the show unwatchable.
Teixeira............Everything else can wait.
Yes
Alternate hosts of BBTN suck-ass – Ravech is the truth. The best team was Ravech, Harold Reynolds and Gammons.
I miss them : (
He's an idiot.
He implied that the Angels offer was 8 years, 180 million. And then he went on to say that the Angels offer was a “starting” point because the deal was worth “just north” of 18 million dollars a year. Hey Karl, learn math plz. 180 million over 8 years averages out to 22.5 million a year. That’s a little more than “just north” of 18 million a year and it’s more than a “starting point”. Man, these ESPN fags really don’t want Tex to say out west.
by Chzburger Jones on Dec 16, 2008 1:57 PM PST up reply actions
the biggest problem here
is the fact that you started effing Mathis and put him in the 7th hole!
Kotch would've had that.
Bring back Kotch, put
Morales in right, and use the $$$ saved to buy Peavy and Dunn
by SocalAngelFaninOC on Dec 16, 2008 8:36 AM PST reply actions
what is Mathis doing in your line up???
No Naps???
Show 'em your a panther... Show 'em what you can do....
by stuck in Romania on Dec 16, 2008 9:16 AM PST reply actions
Wiggington? Are you kidding me? The guy is a joke.
.696 road OPS WOO HOO
Teixeira............Everything else can wait.
Izturis over Aybar?
Anyone object?
A pipeline of talent, welcome to Anaheim.
I'm all for it...
Show 'em your a panther... Show 'em what you can do....
by stuck in Romania on Dec 16, 2008 1:26 PM PST up reply actions
of course Izturis over Aybar
at least offensively as manifest by Aybar’s horrific playoff performance with the bat..
Re-sign Tex!
Just happy to have 'em both
So we’ve always got somebody to play SS when the other one is hurt.
I don't know...I'm makin' this up as I go.
How about Ayzturis?
He wasn’t horrible last year. It would be nice to make sure one or the other could actually fill that role full time first before a decision is made.
by MidwayCityLivestock on Dec 16, 2008 3:47 PM PST up reply actions
anyone else see the ESPN bottomline quote from Soth?
“We have taken our best shot”
In regards to Teixeira.
Time to move on if you ask me. It’s not a white flag, but it definitely feels like Arte and the team have a limit, have put their foot down and wont be Boras’d into fiscal oblivion. Teams have budgets. And maybe, just maybe, Arte actually has a conscience.
I don't see it.
Then again, I’m not sure where on the ESPN.com page to look.
by Chzburger Jones on Dec 16, 2008 4:05 PM PST up reply actions
my bad, it was on TV on the bottomline scroll thingy
by ihearhowie2.0 on Dec 16, 2008 4:40 PM PST up reply actions
What I got from it was the orioles, sux, Angels, and knats all have virtually the same offers on the table.
And Scott Boras and Mark T. are still holding all of MLB and their fans hostage until they decide wtf they are going to do. “We have taken our best shot” to me means all these teams have put their highest offers on the table, and they are waiting for team Boras to make the decision. Just my take on it.
Recipient of the 2008 "The Iron Man" award from scottnak of Halos Heaven!
I love the extra mile of disrespect...
Not only do you use derogatory nicknames when referring to other teams, but they get no capital letters either. Awesome.
White trashin' the 909
The Spin
If the Angels are outbid for Tex (by whomever and by however much) then it will actually be more of a relief. Signing Tex will bring on buyer remorse and tons of stress everytime Tex has the slightest of injuries. With that contract, the expectations on Tex from us fans will be enormous (like his salary). Should Tex continue to do what Tex has done and the Halos don’t win a ring, then we will all be screaming “We need one more piece”.
With arguably the greatest lineup the Angels ever put on the field, we still went out in the first round with Tex. Subtract a couple of key players, throw all of your “offseason money” on one guy, like Tex and where does that put the Halos????
I have always been one saying that signing Tex has a ton of upside, but that signing Tex alone is not the solution to the Halos post season choke jobs. See last year. I still believe that the Halos need Tex & Manny.
And if the Angels can only sign one of the two, I believe for offensive production and posititve influences on our young hitters and our vets in the playoffs, Manny is far more valuable than Tex.
When I'm not at the stadium, I'd rather be watching my Halos back in Costa Rica!
by Dono Romantico on Dec 16, 2008 10:55 PM PST reply actions
I got to agree with this guy.
You are on to something Dono.
Big Tex is an awesome player and can benefit any team he signs for. But I think Manny would put us over the edge for another run at a ring. Manny brought the Dodgers to their first post season victory in 20 years. Imagine how we would have looked last year without Tex, but Manny in his place?
If we could sign both, it would be awesome. If Manny is going to cost 65 mil over 3 and Tex is going to cost 180 mil over 10 I think Manny would be a better signing.
if you think Tex is signing a 10/180 deal you're nuts
but your 3/65 for Manny may be right on.
the scary thing for us is that the Yanks are said to be looking hard at Manny, and we’ve said that he’s basically plan ZZ.
we’ll have to see what happens.
Kotch would've had that.
by howiestheman on Dec 17, 2008 1:04 PM PST up reply actions
180 million over 10 years...
Is what I thought management offered Tex. Its crazy to think that in a bad economy Tex is going to get a 200 mil contract. Whether he is worth it or not, is a moot. And if we lose big Tex to Boston, then the silver lining is that we won’t be handcuffed in later years to build the team.
i agree
if he goes to Boston, i think they’re probably going to overpay.
that being the case, if we can add a few big parts, i’d be just fine.
Kotch would've had that.
by howiestheman on Dec 18, 2008 9:13 AM PST up reply actions
Is no news good news so far on Teixeira?
Maybe he does have a preference for an east coast team but the Angels have the highest offer on the table that he may not be able to refuse in the end. I think it is really more about the money now with him. Is he and Boras holding out to the bitter end hoping one of the east coast teams beats the Angels offer?
Recipient of the 2008 "The Iron Man" award from scottnak of Halos Heaven!
I think the Red Sox have the highest offer on the table
And that’s fine. Get on with it already. Bring on Dunn and Fuentes. It’s not what I hoped for, but we’ll still win 95 games with them.
I don't know...I'm makin' this up as I go.
Fuentes
why is everyone soo hard on Fuentes? yeah he’s a good reliever. just because you have the money to spend doesn’t mean you spend it just because. so are we going to sign him for 3-4 yrs? then were basically saying to Shields thanks for doing your job and waiting for your chance at being the closer but were going to bring in someone else just becuase? so does that mean Arredondo becomes an apprentice for the next 2-3 yrs? we don’t need anyone for the backend of the pen unless its for 1 yr.
I agree
I don’t understand why we would go sign Fuentes when we let K-Rod go for a little more than what it would cost to land Fuentes.
I’ve heard more than once that Shields was just happy being the setup man. He got a fairly good contract just to set the table. I think he is content with that.
We have our closer next year. Jose Arrendondo.
If he struggles we can use Shields in a platoon. Worse case, come the All-Star game we’ve got MySpace who could fill in nicely.
Shields has repeatedly said he is perfectly happy as a setup man
i think he prefers it to closing
Lets go angels
by anaheim angels on Dec 18, 2008 5:33 PM PST up reply actions
MLBTR has red sox winning at around 8/184
IE: 23 million a year for 8 years for a career .290 hitter who was hitting .260 up until about july last season.
Hes a great great hitter, but if we offered 8 years/180 million like they said and LOST, it’s a sign. We will have financial flexibility for the next years while the Red Sox will deal with 3 first basemen
Next year's free agent class
sucks major ass just so you know. The best FAs available are probably our very own John Lackey and Vlad Guerrero.
by Chzburger Jones on Dec 18, 2008 4:48 PM PST up reply actions
Lackey
why would that be? just because he says he wants to wait and see the offensive upgrades? what if we don’t upgrade? we still win, is he going to walk away? what if we win the WS, is he going to walkaway? he shouldn’t even care what we get. he should just pitch the best he can and everything else will take care of itself.
really
even if the Angels continue to win? you think because he gets frustrated with run support or just because he wants some personal glory? i feel like if we win, that that cures all personal disappointment.
I think he is tired of losing with little to no run support
He was quiet for two years and then he said something last year and that scares me.
This is the worst offseason in years. I do not even want to talk about it.
i guess
it can really get personally frustrating when you get no run support.
I am sure he knows the Yankees or Mets have some money laying around for him
This is the worst offseason in years. I do not even want to talk about it.
it gets really frustrating for a pitcher when he pitches a great game (7+ innings/1 ER or so)
and he loses cuz the offense cant do shit
Lets go angels
by anaheim angels on Dec 18, 2008 5:35 PM PST up reply actions
Manny and Wiggy?
Come on, at least consider the value of defense. The 2002 team was one of the best defensive ballclubs in recent memory.
what good is defense
when you can’t score in the playoffs?
I watched alleged great defensive players boot balls all over the place in the playoffs last year.
Including Torii
making his only error of the season. Oh, and you can’t forget that miscommunication play between Howie and Torii that ended up costing us 3 runs in ironically the only post-season game we won.
by Chzburger Jones on Dec 19, 2008 8:13 AM PST up reply actions
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