The Frankie-for-Fuentes Trade
by mattwelch on Dec 31, 2008 11:10 AM PST
45 comments
Here's a way of thinking about it: We just swapped elite closers who were pretty close in value in 2008. We get someone who costs more than $3 million a year less, throws left-handed, and whose also contract runs out one year earlier. They get K-Rod, a historically great pitcher whose role in 2002 will never be forgotten, nor will his contributions to 4 AL West titles since then.
We also get to move up 8 places in the first round of the June draft, from 33 to 25. EDIT/UPDATE: Plus, duh, a supplemental draft pick for Frankie that should clock in at around #46. So: instead of drafting 33rd, we are now drafting 25th and 46th, while paying less money for fewer years for a closer whose per-inning stats were better than K-Rod's last year.
I'm a certified Frankie fan, but there could be much worse outcomes than that. Most importantly, we shouldn't suffer any letdown in performance from the closer position this year, and our bullpen looks to be pretty sharp, though I worry about slippage from Oliver & Arredondo. What say you?
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I like it!
I was willing to go with Arredondo, but since it has happened…….I like it.
Still, without Teixeira, we expect to win our division. Having a dependable, elite southpaw reliever bodes well.
by wumbug on Dec 31, 2008 11:20 AM PST reply actions 0 recs
while i love arredondo
i think people were failing to see the risk involved in handing him that kind of responsibility after half a season or so.
If arredondo is the real deal, this doesnt hurt us. If he’s not, this was a great deal to protect us.
by ihearhowie2.0 on Dec 31, 2008 11:28 AM PST reply actions 0 recs
I agree
the best way to ruin a good pitching prospect is to throw him in a high stress situation after little time in the Show.
Dondo also needs to develop a third pitch, he only boasts a + fastball and + sinker. I’ve always been one to think you need three + pitches to truly succeed in the majors.
I brought sexy back, but they only gave me store credit....
by PhiSlamma on Dec 31, 2008 11:40 AM PST up reply actions 0 recs
Not for a closer
Two pitches…if they are very good pitches…are enough. 3 is a bonus.
I’ll take Rivera’s cut fastball any day.
I don't know...I'm makin' this up as I go.
by ArkAngel on Dec 31, 2008 11:41 AM PST up reply actions 0 recs
Very true,
closers are different, but a sinker is somewhat different than a cut-fastball.
Maybe a change-up, or some kind of pitch to deceive off of his fastball.
I brought sexy back, but they only gave me store credit....
by PhiSlamma on Dec 31, 2008 11:43 AM PST up reply actions 0 recs
Well i agree with both points
but Hoffman has the most saves ever with just a sick changeup and fastball. So it is possible. With a splitty, a little unpredictable but still possible.
Give the young guns a chance...if they suck wellll...
by angelskid2210 on Dec 31, 2008 12:59 PM PST up reply actions 0 recs
Arredondo throws fastball and splitty.
That out pitch of his is the split, not a sinker.
"…he has a 2 seam ‘heavy’ fastball that has sink but he does not throw a ‘sinker’." Angel Aviator on Jake Peavy.
by GarretSaysSuckIt on Dec 31, 2008 1:41 PM PST up reply actions 0 recs
Ah right
my bad.
Sinker actually breaks less, so it still goes along with my point, was just slightly confused as to the actual pitch.
I brought sexy back, but they only gave me store credit....
by PhiSlamma on Dec 31, 2008 2:03 PM PST up reply actions 0 recs
Totally offtopic,but...
Can someone explain to me the difference between a slider and a curve?
Angels fan since '67
by red floyd on Dec 31, 2008 2:22 PM PST up reply actions 0 recs
Slider: Appears to have a fastball release (as it’s held somewhat like a fastball and doesn’t rely on a snap of the fingers in the release) that typically has a “sliding” 2-7 kind of break, usually sharp just as the pitch reaches the plate. Velocity is usually closer to that of a fast ball which causes the batter to recognize fastball but misses or grounds the ball into the plate as the ball darts down and in/away
Curveball: usually has a more over the top release and is basically top spin that causes the ball to “fall off the table” as it gets closer to the plate. There’s no real deception with the release as it’s usually pretty easy to recognize but the difficulty is more related to the ball’s flight path, how sharply it breaks (usually more 12-6 or straight down), and it’s difference in velocity (usually 15-20 MPH slower than the fastball).
cool?
by MidwayCityLivestock on Dec 31, 2008 2:34 PM PST up reply actions 0 recs
I could be wrong, too, as it's hard to know
without actually seeing the spin of the pitch. The true “split-fingered fastball” looks and spins like a fastball, with the bottom dropping out of it, while the classic “forkball” doesn’t spin much (if at all).
"…he has a 2 seam ‘heavy’ fastball that has sink but he does not throw a ‘sinker’." Angel Aviator on Jake Peavy.
by GarretSaysSuckIt on Dec 31, 2008 2:41 PM PST up reply actions 0 recs
Great signing
Great job Ninja! Now hook up a minor trade trade for some power like Colorados’ Atkins 3Bagger!
PURA VIDA
by cgregez on Dec 31, 2008 11:37 AM PST reply actions 0 recs
Atkins is blah
His home numbers are fantastic at .342 AVG .380 OBP .523 (also very good)
Away, though, his numbers, well are GMJ-esk.
.233 AVG, .278 OBP (absolutely awful) .383 SLG
Even if he slightly improves those numbers after a trade you are still looking at a .250 AVG .330 OBP thrid baseman.
I would rather have Figgins, and I cant stand him.
I brought sexy back, but they only gave me store credit....
by PhiSlamma on Dec 31, 2008 11:45 AM PST up reply actions 0 recs
Exactly!
Call me when Atkins learns to hit in a state other than Colorado.
by George Kaplan on Dec 31, 2008 12:04 PM PST up reply actions 0 recs
The change to a new closer is good.
Fuentes is coming from the national league so the opposing batters will have him less figured out maybe than with Frankie, who toward the end, was’nt fooling anybody so much anymore. Looks like Fuentes will get a lot of work if we do not sign any new bat, as the games will probably be close.
Recipient of the 2008 "The Iron Man" award from scottnak of Halos Heaven!
by 44FAN on Dec 31, 2008 11:52 AM PST reply actions 0 recs
3rd year vesting year option
ESPN is reporting a $9 million vesting option on a third year. If all goes well, this becomes a three year $26.5 million contract. Basically, we save $10 million over 3 years which isn’t a huge difference. To me, this just shows how little confidence the Angels FO had in Frankie and quite possibly some bad feelings that he didn’t accept the 3 year deal he was offered before 2008.
by HungryHunter on Dec 31, 2008 11:53 AM PST reply actions 0 recs
ya i think the bad feelings were mutual
i think the last arbitration didnt go so well. I remember hearing on am570(ya, i know…) that they were told by Gubi that frankie wanted to kill everyone after those hearings.
by ihearhowie2.0 on Dec 31, 2008 11:59 AM PST up reply actions 0 recs
The contract he signed with the Mets...
proved the Angels FO was more than generous in their 3 year offer. He got the saves record in 2008 and barely got more than was offered to him by the Angels before the season.
by HungryHunter on Dec 31, 2008 12:00 PM PST up reply actions 0 recs
3yr / 34M
offered by the Halos
Didn’t he end up with 3yr/37?
You are right, it was a minor difference and while I applaud the Fuentes signing, I wonder which side had the problem with the other — the Halos or Frankie? It’s really too bad that he could not have felt at home here in Anaheim.
by Downing Rules on Dec 31, 2008 3:15 PM PST up reply actions 0 recs
Another thing to think about -- Fuentes' vesting option
It’s based on games finished. Depending on everyone’s performance, and especially the development of the Jepsen/Thompson/Bulger troika (if any of it is left after this offseason), the Angels might find it real convenient to slide Dondo into the closer role in 2010, thus saving that third year.
by mattwelch on Dec 31, 2008 11:55 AM PST reply actions 0 recs
Short term: GREAT save on Reagins' part! Huge.
Long term: has anybody yet used “Brian Fuentes” and “Hall Of Fame” in the same breath?
by Stirrups on Dec 31, 2008 11:56 AM PST reply actions 0 recs
does every player need to be HOF worty?
he’s solid… that’s all you need.
Kotch would've had that.
by howiestheman on Dec 31, 2008 12:13 PM PST up reply actions 0 recs
Well, that's not my point.
Not EVERY player needs to have HOF credentials. But what the Halos lost when Frankie left was one player who probably WILL have HOF cred when his time is up. That is long term thinking, of course, but that is how I qualified it in my original post.
If Fuentes does not project to that spectacular of a career arc then, long term, we took a step down.
(All the usual caveats apply: no assurance KRod remains on track; Fuentes is a better value proposition at this time; we may see Fuentes reap HUGE performance rewards for being a tighter closer than KRod in Sosh’s system, etc., etc., etc.)
by Stirrups on Dec 31, 2008 12:21 PM PST up reply actions 0 recs
Hooooolllld on there...
It will be a long, long time before Frankie has the career to make him worthy of the Hall of Fame. He will need to show the same capabilities throughout his contract with the Mets, and then with whichever team signs him after that.
It is also entirely possible that concerns about his durability will be found to have merit and his career could easily tail off in the next four seasons. Clearly, the Angels had some concerns about the ability of his body to hold up longer than the next three years, or else they would have gone longer on the contract offer. Likewise, it has been widely noticed that many of his metrics have been on the decline for the past three years—meaningless records for “saves” to the contrary.
Good as he is, Frankie has plenty to prove over the next several years before a rational discussion of his potential to enter the HoF can be held.
by George Kaplan on Dec 31, 2008 1:57 PM PST up reply actions 0 recs
Note first estanciated caveat...
“no assurance KRod remains on track”
by Stirrups on Dec 31, 2008 2:33 PM PST up reply actions 0 recs
I read that...
unfortunately, it didn’t leaven the “one player who probably WILL have HOF cred when his time is up” comment at the outset.
It is far too premature to make such a presumption, by a factor of 5-10 years.
by George Kaplan on Dec 31, 2008 2:41 PM PST up reply actions 0 recs
Anybody remember Roger Maris??
Whaddya think was more difficult? 61 hrs or 62 saves?
by SocalAngelFaninOC on Jan 1, 2009 8:48 AM PST up reply actions 0 recs
K-Rod
I don’t recall that he was receiving death threats by those fans of Bobby Thigpen who were outraged his record was being threatened.
Maris wins this one in a landslide.
by George Kaplan on Jan 1, 2009 10:34 AM PST up reply actions 0 recs
You realize, of course, that he is already in the HOF, right?
Not yet for his career (although it’s easy to find other opinions that support this common conjecture). But, technically, he already is there.
by Stirrups on Jan 1, 2009 2:11 PM PST up reply actions 0 recs
Frankie
Your “other opinion” basically showed his ineptitude by listing Barry Zito as having any chance of serious consideration. He’s 30 years old and has 123 wins, which would necessitate his winning 177 more games to reach the 300 wins considered a key qualification for entry as a starter. That is a tough order, considering Zito’s numbers were sliding well before he signed his fat deal with the Giants, but averaging 17 wins/season until he’s 40 is what will do the trick.
Likely? Of course not, but that “expert” seems to think there is a chance. ’Nuff said about that judge of talent.
As far as the “Frankie being in the Hall of Fame” comment was concerned, I think everyone knows exactly what was being discussed—Francisco Rodriguez being elected in as a retired player. That is only slightly more of a sure thing than Zito’s bust being sculpted for an induction ceremony.
by George Kaplan on Jan 1, 2009 8:44 PM PST up reply actions 0 recs
Fuentes'
contract projected to 4 years is less than K-Rod makes in 3 and he’s almost as good. It’s a good signing by Ninja.
by Chzburger Jones on Dec 31, 2008 12:29 PM PST reply actions 0 recs
K-Rod v. the Big Apple media and K-Rod v. the Phillies
Those are the battles that’ll test his mettle. It’ll be fun seeing him lead off every SportsCenter each night.
Call the cops, Martha ... Something's amiss over at Room 52 at the Ivanhoe Motel on Katella.
by PieceOfAase on Dec 31, 2008 12:34 PM PST reply actions 0 recs
You mean after the Yankees/Red Sox highlights, of course.
I don't know...I'm makin' this up as I go.
by ArkAngel on Dec 31, 2008 1:16 PM PST up reply actions 0 recs
Of course ..... of course (and after the daily dose of Madonna/A-Rod)!
Call the cops, Martha ... Something's amiss over at Room 52 at the Ivanhoe Motel on Katella.
by PieceOfAase on Jan 1, 2009 1:46 AM PST up reply actions 0 recs
It wasn't the intent, obviously, since he's a closer,
but I love the fact that the Angels finally have that lefty-killer (Oliver has been tougher on righties, strangely).
"…he has a 2 seam ‘heavy’ fastball that has sink but he does not throw a ‘sinker’." Angel Aviator on Jake Peavy.
by GarretSaysSuckIt on Dec 31, 2008 1:44 PM PST reply actions 0 recs
Not that history has much to do with it but...
the Halos seem to have pretty good luck when it comes to closers. Even old man Lee Smith did a decent job for us (if I recall correctly).
Fuentes makes our bullpen stronger with the vacancy of Frankie. Its a good move and possibly the only one we will see all season.
by BryanHarvey'sMoustache on Dec 31, 2008 1:47 PM PST reply actions 0 recs
Signing Rivera was a good move.
Not earth-shaking, but not bad.
I don't know...I'm makin' this up as I go.
by ArkAngel on Dec 31, 2008 1:54 PM PST up reply actions 0 recs
oh right. Rivera....
yeah…the possibility of see Willits out there on opening day was a bit nerve-racking.
by BryanHarvey'sMoustache on Dec 31, 2008 1:57 PM PST reply actions 0 recs
Compare the stats from 2008.
Looking at this, imagine if Fuentes gets 60+ save opportunities next season.
Fuentes, Shields, Speir, Jepsen, Oliver, and of course, Arredondo have been closers. All have been set-up men. Now, consider Bulger, Thompson, and Escobar. Where do you put a long man?
Nice………..
by wumbug on Dec 31, 2008 3:41 PM PST reply actions 0 recs
Escobar was also a closer early in his career with the Blue Jays
Tex is a Yank...now our counter move is what?
by hk47 on Dec 31, 2008 5:25 PM PST up reply actions 0 recs
I'm a certified Frankie fan too
And I say we (Angels) come out ahead. I’m happy.
Angel Pitching, Angel Defense - get past that.
by vladtheimpaler on Dec 31, 2008 4:27 PM PST reply actions 0 recs
It was great when it all began
I was a regular Frankie fan
But it was over when he had a plan
To start workin’ for the Wilpon man
Now the only thing that gives me hope
Is my love of a certain dope
Rose tints my world, keeps me safe from my trouble and pain
Witty .sig goes here.
by scareduck on Dec 31, 2008 6:34 PM PST reply actions 0 recs
Nice. I clicked on splits:2008 on the page
1.84 ERA away from Coors field. Not bad.
Angel Pitching, Angel Defense - get past that.
by vladtheimpaler on Jan 1, 2009 12:17 AM PST up reply actions 0 recs
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