Ervin Santana: Has anything changed?

by goodvibe61 on Mar 10, 2008 10:46 AM PDT

Ervin Santana has now started three times this spring in Arizona. He's now thrown 8/2/3 innings of work. I'm assuming he's had enough opportunities to loosen up the arm, work out the kinks, and show what he can do to impress the coaching staff.

So far he's simply not getting it done. He's not fooling anybody. It seems like everybody is smacking him around. After yesterday's struggle he's now given up 13 hits and 8 earned runs in those 8 2/3 innings. The only positive things you can say about his performance is that he's got 6 K's and he hasn't gotten injured yet.

You know, with the injury to Kelvim and Big John's slow start this spring, Santana had the perfect opportunity to come in and show what he can do to help our club. It looks to me like he's been showcased, starting three times already. And what we've seen is somebody who isn't exactly gonna strike fear in the hearts of anyone. Once April rolls around the idea of this guy going out there against the Tigers, the Red Sox, the Indians, the Yankees, the Mariners, etc., it gets me a little sick just thinking about it.

Can this guy fix whatever ails him, or is this a case of "it is what it is"? The idea of Joe Saunders still having to compete against Ervin for a spot in the rotation seems like a complete joke to me.

Where do you think we're headed with Ervin? Is he part of our future?

This Fan-Post is authored by an independent fan. Tell us what you think and how you feel.

Tweet Comment 39 comments | 0 recs |

Do you like this story?

Comments

Vladimir Guerrero

Vladimir Guerrero has now played in two weeks of spring in Arizona. He's now had 18 at-bats of work. I'm assuming he's had enough opportunities to loosen up the bat, work out the kinks, and show what he can do to impress the coaching staff.

So far he's simply not getting it done. He's not hitting anybody. It seems like everybody is getting him out. After Saturday's struggle he's now 3 for 16, batting only .188. The only positive things you can say about his performance is that he's got 1HR and he hasn't gotten injured yet.

You know, with the injury problems last year to Kendrick, Kotchman, and Anderson, Guerrero has the perfect opportunity to come in and show what he can do to help our club. It looks to me like he's been showcased, starting three times already. And what we've seen is somebody who isn't exactly gonna strike fear in the hearts of anyone. Once April rolls around the idea of this guy going out there against the Tigers, the Red Sox, the Indians, the Yankees, the Mariners, etc., it gets me a little sick just thinking about it.

Can this guy fix whatever ails him, or is this a case of "it is what it is"? The idea of Reggie Willits still having to compete against Vladimir for a spot in the lineup seems like a complete joke to me.

Where do you think we're headed with Vlad? Is he part of our future?

I realize it's not the perfect analogy, but my point is simple: It's spring. Ervin's primary goal right now is to work out mechanics, get loose, hit spots, tune up velocity and location, and worry about adjusting to individual hitters and situations, and game-oriented problems later on. I think nothing of his performance thus far. NOTHING.

by Caseys Kiss of Death on Mar 10, 2008 10:54 AM PDT reply actions

But..

Vlad is a proven vet. Santana is the opposite.

I doubt many people are sweating in Sea over Ichiro's poor start, at least not the way they would be if Felix were struggling.

by seamariners85 on Mar 10, 2008 11:27 AM PDT up reply actions

Good Show!

by wumbug on Mar 10, 2008 1:23 PM PDT up reply actions

Yeah, that comparison is right on.

I mean, I remember all those years in which Ervin Santana was MVP of the AL, carried the Angels on his back for months at a time, and became the face of the franchise.

Come on man! Are you serious?

So okay, I understand what you're saying about spring training being meaningless. I don't necessarily agree, but I get what you're saying. I just thought that perhaps Santana would be in a position in which he felt he needed to do a little more than simply show up and rest assured that his place in the rotation is completely secured.

I don't think spring is meaningless. I don't think that there's a single minor league kid up at a major league camp right now that is giving anything less than everything he has to give, trying to make it to the big club. Do we simply count every single element of spring training as meaningless? Regarding great players, yes, that is indeed different. But for a young developing player like Santana, I don't see spring as being the same thing as a for a veteran like Vlad.

I don't see Santana as being a lock regarding anything, let alone that he's secured his spot in the rotation. Obviously you don't see it that way. Ok then.

by goodvibe61 on Mar 10, 2008 11:35 AM PDT reply actions

Jesus Christ

did you see the part where I acknowledged the absolutely true flaw of the analogy, or what?

In fact, I went out of my way to say it, before stating very clearly, in as few words as necessary, the exact point of my analogy. And it's the only point in all of this that matters at all:

IT IS SPRING TRAINING.

by Caseys Kiss of Death on Mar 10, 2008 12:18 PM PDT up reply actions

Thanks for the shout out...

to our LORD AND SAVIOR!

Let's go, Spiezio!

by Downing Rules on Mar 10, 2008 12:21 PM PDT up reply actions

TESTIFIED!

Hopefully being an Angels fan in itself is enough for some bonus points towards heaven.

by Caseys Kiss of Death on Mar 10, 2008 12:22 PM PDT up reply actions

Amen

Put Kendry Morales at 1B, and move Sean Rodriguez to 3B......NOW LETS GO WIN!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

by acuda27 on Mar 10, 2008 10:56 PM PDT up reply actions

is it

finals week or something in NJ? You seem extra cranky.

BTW, good luck on your impending immersion into the real world. Hopefully you'll look back on your college life with nothing but fond memories (and blurry recollections.)

Lamest poster of all-time.

by ineptituderunsamok on Mar 11, 2008 3:44 AM PDT up reply actions

Midterms

And I already forgot what you said.

Is that a good sign?

by Caseys Kiss of Death on Mar 11, 2008 4:28 AM PDT up reply actions

And then I went

and accidentally hit enter before I meant to. Goddamn, I'm stupid today.

And no, Santana is not a lock at all. But that doesn't mean that he should be pressing himself to be throwing 3 perfect innings each time he puts himself on the mound, either. He's not going to dial it up and over-exert himself before we're 10 days into March. Three spring starts for ANYONE is meaningless, especially with someone who has, compared to the minor league kids you mentioned, a certain amount of relative security in at least making the 25 man roster.

The first couple starts are extremely, extremely, EXTREMELY limited glances at what the pitcher can or can't do. If you have him press himself, way ahead of schedule, only bad things can happen (injures/fatigue). The very, very least you can afford the guy is more than 11 days of Spring Training to prove himself. If you're going to judge by spring AT ALL (I advise against it with people like Santana), you owe him as much as looking past the first three starts. At this point in the spring, EVERYONE is very much still working on the small things. EVERYONE.

by Caseys Kiss of Death on Mar 10, 2008 12:22 PM PDT up reply actions

I agree with goodvibe

There. I said it.

Ervin's 2007 season was hardly scintillating; he needs to at least LOOK like he is making progress. It IS early in spring still, but the rope is shorter for Ervin than it was before. He needs to start picking it up sooner rather than later. Two years ago, we spent all spring watching Jeff Weaver getting rocked, and we all told ourselves that it was "just spring."

Yes, we need patience to a certain degree. Ervin is still very talented and, as far as we know, healthy. But sometime before March 31st, we need to SOME positive steps...

"When you don't know that you don't know, it's a lot different than when you do know that you don't know" - Bill Parcells

by johnnyangel101 on Mar 10, 2008 1:43 PM PDT reply actions

And for every Jeff Weaver

who sucks in both spring and regular seasons, there are a thousand guys who suck in spring and are great in the regular season, or great in spring who suck in the regular season.

Yes, the rope is shorter. But he's had three spring starts. THREE. He's thrown what? 90 pitches to this point?

He's on the mound to make adjustments, tune up his velocity, and work on his mechanics. Right now, at this point in spring, pretty much the last thing on anyone's mind is "I hope I throw a perfect game today." Spring progress, ESPECIALLY such a small sample as three pitch-count starts, is not measured in any stat-boy stat. Is everyone here just watching spring training for the first time?

by Caseys Kiss of Death on Mar 10, 2008 2:10 PM PDT up reply actions

You mean spring training doesn't count?

Damn! My fantasy team was killing. Remember a few years ago when D-MAC was hitting like .900 with 90 home runs in spring training? Does the NBA all-star game also not count?

by melvintoast on Mar 10, 2008 7:09 PM PDT up reply actions

Easy there Casey

Just because I don't agree with you doesn't make you right and me wrong.

I am NOT totally judging Ervin on three Spring Training starts. I DO think he needs to pitch better as spring progresses. Is that so hard to understand, either?

"When you don't know that you don't know, it's a lot different than when you do know that you don't know" - Bill Parcells

by johnnyangel101 on Mar 10, 2008 10:25 PM PDT up reply actions

Dude Santana STARTED a NO-NO

In the Dominican Republic this winter and pitched GREAT in COMPETITION. He is not trying to win "La Serie Del Caribe" again so he doesnt give a rats ass wheather they hit him or not. Hes just doing what the staff asks him to work on.

If he sucks in the regular season then start complaining, and im sure we will all join you.

Put Kendry Morales at 1B, and move Sean Rodriguez to 3B......NOW LETS GO WIN!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

by acuda27 on Mar 10, 2008 11:02 PM PDT up reply actions

I'm not saying Spring is ENTIRELY meaningless

but three starts? Gimme a break. The coaches run them out there and give him specific things in his delivery, velocity, etc. to work on, with little or no concern for the result. If they don't care (and I would assume they likely don't, yet), then I don't care.

by Caseys Kiss of Death on Mar 11, 2008 2:53 AM PDT up reply actions

I think Santana's salary issue...

cannot help his mental status. The Angels dickered over $10,000. That is ridiculous for someone as fragile as Ervin is, I think they should have met him at $430k.

Let's go, Spiezio!

by Downing Rules on Mar 10, 2008 2:21 PM PDT reply actions

The way I understood it,

He made $425,000 in 2007. They offered $430,000 for 2008. His agent said something like, "We cannot accept that." Due to some rule (somewhere), they were obligated to accept the lower offer which was $420,000.

by wumbug on Mar 10, 2008 2:31 PM PDT up reply actions

Aha.

I think, then, that the Angels were fair, but the agent made a mistake. Thanks for that info.

Let's go, Spiezio!

by Downing Rules on Mar 10, 2008 2:40 PM PDT up reply actions

Ervin has to realise

he's at the mercy of the Angel's management for the first 3 years of his playing life. Accept the low contract while your under team control, and if you've deserved it, a payday is awaiting during arby/FA.

by halo8 on Mar 10, 2008 2:32 PM PDT up reply actions

I could go for some Arby's right now

low cholesterol is overrated.

by Caseys Kiss of Death on Mar 10, 2008 2:47 PM PDT up reply actions

I've always had

an irrational hatred for Arby's. Bleh.

Living in Cali --> In-N-OUT --> no need to partake in Arby's.

by halo8 on Mar 10, 2008 2:50 PM PDT up reply actions

Arby-ceuticals

Gotta love processed meats. MMMMMM MMMMMM GOOD.

Let's go, Spiezio!

by Downing Rules on Mar 10, 2008 3:27 PM PDT up reply actions

Lil Nicky

Adenhardt pitched four innings of shut-out ball today, does anyone think it's possible he starts the year in Kelvim's place with Black Magic casting spells in SLC?

by bryan on Mar 10, 2008 3:55 PM PDT reply actions

Not me.

Great game by Adenhart, but I think Magic's our man, unless someone else goes down......to the DL, that is.

by wumbug on Mar 10, 2008 4:33 PM PDT up reply actions

In a word

No. Adenhart was lit up in his previous appearance. I'm not sure he's thrown a single pitch at AAA; it would take a lot more than a poor spring by Ervin to see Adenhart make the big club at this point. Heck, in the short term, Dustin Mosely is more likely to get the 5th starter spot, with another young reliever making the team. Right now, O'Day, Arredondo & Bulger are candidates for that role.

by jjackflash on Mar 10, 2008 4:33 PM PDT up reply actions

Winter League

Anyone seem to remember the last time he was in a truly competitive environment he was pretty darn good.

Bedard, and Princess or not, Seattle is not winning 90 and I am not scared.

by hauldog on Mar 10, 2008 4:15 PM PDT reply actions

give him time

what's more important are the 1-3 LAST starts in spring for a guy who is established. Yes, Santana is established and set in the rotation right now.

The decision who stays or goes when Kelvim comes back will be determined on actual games that matter, not spring games.

Lackey struggled today -- does that mean he's a worry and in trouble? Spring stats, especially those during the first 2-3 weeks, are important for guys trying to make a team or earn a starting position.

No more Ervin posts until the guy gives up 5 runs in 2 1/3rd innings in Baltimore or Toronto or Minn or wherever. sheesh!

by TTTT on Mar 10, 2008 4:41 PM PDT reply actions

I remember.

He did really well in the Domican Winter League.

I remember that in two separate games he pitched 3 and/or 4 innings of no-hit ball.

Also, check out this quote:

Top Performers:

Ervin Santana, Angels: Santana will head to Spring Training on a roll after combining on a no-hitter for Licey. He went 3-1 with a 2.13 ERA and 27 strikeouts over 25 1/3 innings in the playoffs.

by wumbug on Mar 10, 2008 5:04 PM PDT reply actions

A million dollar arm, 10 cent head

Jeff George ..... meet your MLB counterpart!

by PieceOfAase on Mar 10, 2008 5:22 PM PDT reply actions

Better than Garland

So he'll be useful as a #5. I can see Garland flopping harrrrd.

by Notor on Mar 10, 2008 5:37 PM PDT reply actions

21 quality starts in US Cellular

Pecota tell you that?

Bedard, and Princess or not, Seattle is not winning 90 and I am not scared.

by hauldog on Mar 10, 2008 5:52 PM PDT up reply actions

What?

Seriously, who are you? Ervin can be electric at times. I've seen him pitch close to a dozen times, but I don't think his track record is better than Garlands. Especially considering Garlands uncanny ability to year in and year out to put up 20 plus quality starts... of note, has been better than Lackey and Escobar in that category. As matter of fact I believe he was tied with Jake Peavy last year. But then again, who is he, right?

by matt92130 on Mar 13, 2008 1:32 AM PDT up reply actions

Not up to Bautista's high standards evidently.

Garland, in 2007, according to ERA+ would have been better than ANY Seattle pitcher save Bedard. Considering Seattle is the gold standard of starting pitcher that has to be pretty impressive?

On the road to 100.

by hauldog on Mar 13, 2008 9:06 AM PDT up reply actions

santana is still young...

scouting director ed bane said in recent interview that the worst thing that happened to santana was he had a lot of success early in his career. did you know ervin is younger than weaver and saunders?

by thejd on Mar 10, 2008 6:43 PM PDT reply actions

I like this shtuff

West Coast Starters

by wumbug on Mar 10, 2008 10:26 PM PDT reply actions

Short answer: maybe.

Santana needs to pull his head out, that's for sure.

No good .sig goes unpunished.

by scareduck on Mar 11, 2008 12:13 AM PDT reply actions

Yeah...

Anybody see Santana doing more than starting stretches of homestands and rounding out the rotation when Kelvim has phantom boo-boos? I really think this is the year he gets traded, and for much less than he was worth in previous prospective deals (deals that I opposed and was fine with Stoneman not taking.) Watch Santana get swapped for power prospects around the ASB.

by Brendo on Mar 11, 2008 4:24 PM PDT reply actions