I Got Yer "Imposing" Right Here
So I see in the L.A. Times that:
Without the two right-handers, the [Angels'] rotation isn't as imposing as Seattle's, which features Bedard, Felix Hernandez, Silva, Washburn and Miguel Batista. Bedard and Hernandez combined for a 27-12 record and 386 strikeouts last season.
Really? Lackey's going to miss, what, five starts? Eric Bedard averages five missed starts per year (he's only had as many as 29 once). Compare our Escobar-less rotation with theirs, and I see no Seattle advantage in the least.
ACE:
Bedard is 29, career record of 40-34 with an ERA+ (meaning, ERA when adjusted to league and ballpark context) of 118 in 658 innings pitched. He has been great for two seasons, averaging 14-8 in 189 IP with ERA+s of 121 and 146.
Lackey is 29, career record of 79-58 with and ERA+ of 116 in 1161 IP. He has been great for three seasons, averaging 15-8 in 217 IP with ERA+s of 123, 128 and 151.
NUMBAH TWO
Felix Hernandez, the statheads' darling (because he's 22 and strikes guys out), has for the last two years gone 26-21, with ERA+s of 98 and 110.
25-year-old Jered Weaver, the statheads' whipping-boy (because he has the bad manners to get people out by different means), has over that same period gone 24-9 with ERA+s of 178 and 117.
HUMPER
Washburn's 33, and in his last five years he has posted an above average ERA+ (100 or higher) only once. Last year's 194 IP was his most since 2003.
Garland's 28, and in his last five years he's posted ERA+s of 103, 97, 128, 105 and 112, while averaging 210 innings pitched.
FOUR-SPOT
Carlos Silva is 29, with ERA+s the last two years of 75 and 103.
Joe Saunders is 27, with ERA+s the last two years of 97 and 103.
ANCHOR MAN
Miguel Batista is 37, and his career highs are 16 wins, 206 IP, an ERA+ of 109, 142 strikeouts, and WHIP of 1.31.
Ervin Santana is 25, and his career highs are 16 wins, 204 IP, an ERA+ of 107, 141 strikeouts, and a WHIP of 1.23.
RAINY DAY MEN
Here's where Seattle really collapses. Who's the #6? R.A. Dickey? Cha Seung Baek? Take the Mariners' starting five over their last three years and you know how many individual seasons of 200 IP you've got? Two -- Silva's 202 last year, and Batista's 206 in 2006. The Angels have 7; 8 if you count Joe Saunders' minor league work in 2006.
We have a league-average-looking Dustin Moseley to keep Lackey's seat warm, plus a phee-nom in AAA.
Seattle's rotation is improved, fo sho, but everyone seems to be counting on unprecedented health, and King Felix's long-awaited Great Leap Forward. While I think the latter is more likely than the former, I put the chances of their rotation being materially better than ours as slim at best.
UPDATE: Make sure to read Zu Long's actual analysis in the comments.
This Fan-Post is authored by an independent fan. Tell us what you think and how you feel.
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45 comments
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ERA+
One of the most worthless pitching statistics in baseball for projecting future performance. But nice effort.
by OlSalty on
Mar 30, 2008 7:38 AM PDT
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Mike DiGiovanna is not a cheerleader
Don't worry if he's not going nuts over-promoting the Angels. There are some writers who are just fanboys, but Mike's not one of them. DiGiovanna had even conceded the division title last year to the Mariners at around the all-star break.
As for Lackey being back in May, I doubt it. I don't trust the Angels. I have always felt they under report the severity of injuries.
Ain't no stoppin' us now. We got the groove!
by Fan Since 1981 on
Mar 30, 2008 8:14 AM PDT
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Really? One of "the most worthless"?
Is it more worthless than, say, won and loss records? Is it more worthless than shutouts and complete games? Is it more worthless than the number quality starts? Is it more worthless than HBP, or stolen bases allowed, or home/road splits?
Or is it more that you simply prefer three or four other BABIP-style metrics, and in order to show how smart-tastic you are it's important to issue such unintentionally comic and unscientific hyperbole as suggesting that a pitcher's adjusted run-prevention -- his prior success at his job description, in other words -- is near the very bottom of the statistical toolbox?
by mattwelch on
Mar 30, 2008 8:46 AM PDT
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Because ERA+ doesn't measure a pitcher's adjusted run prevention
It measure's an entire defense's run prevention, including all the things the pitcher has absolutely no control over. That includes the defense behind him and where the balls happen to fly off of the bat. A good pitcher with a terrible defense, who happened to get unlucky with where a lot of the balls put into landed, can have a bad ERA+, and a bad pitcher with a good defense behind him who happened to have a lot of balls fall right into his defenders laps can have a higher ERA+ than they deserve
A much more worthwhile statistic for judging pitchers is Fielding Independent Pitching. It's an ERA adjusted for all of the things a pitcher has control over. When you look at FIP, the numbers actually mean something for evaluating pitching talent and projecting future performance. I don't want to list all of the stats, so I'll just go off of last year
2007 FIP
Bedard 3.33
Lackey 3.66
Felix 3.83
Weaver 4.14
Washburn 4.83
Garland 4.46 (aww nuts, got us here)
Silva 4.35
Saunders 4.38 ('bout even)
Batista 4.61
Santana 5.21
Yeeeeeeep.
by OlSalty on
Mar 30, 2008 9:16 AM PDT
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Ask Jim Palmer about "absolutely no control"
Or Pedro Martinez.
FIP is great, and I genuflect in the general direction of Voros McCracken. But there's a difference -- a chasm, even -- between appreciating & factoring in those insights and proceeding to absolutist statements about ERA+ being "one of the most worthless" pitching stats, or pitchers having "absolutely no control" over what happens to balls hit in play. I wonder how many consecutive years of Weaver out-performing Hernandez on archaic metrics like ERA+ it will take before such absolutism begins to be questioned.
As for Batista vs. Santana, I'll take the youth and demonstrated peak ability of the latter over the age and 2007 FIP advantage of the former.
by mattwelch on
Mar 30, 2008 9:27 AM PDT
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ERA+ hasn't sustained itself a reliable metric yet
I can't imagine why it would suddenly start to do so. Even in your own numbers you quoted, ERA+ jumped around like crazy now didn't it? You think Weaver is a 178 ERA+ pitcher or anything CLOSE to that?
See because, if he could control his babip at all, you'd think he wouldn't have gone from a .237 babip in 2006 (well below league average) to a .313 babip in 2007 (slightly above). That's called regression to the mean, and it's exactly why 2006 was not a true indication of how good Jered Weaver actually is, his 2006 FIP was, and it mostly held true for his 2007 year unlike his ERA+. And Jered has more regressing to do, because he is a flyball pitcher to the extreme and his flyball to homerun ratio is still way lower than it should be if he had average luck. But that isn't even factored into his FIP, if you factor that in (i.e. his xFIP) isolated from all outside variables he was a 4.66 xFIP pitcher in 2006 and a 4.88 xFIP pitcher in 2007..
It's not a garbage stat if you want to know how a pitcher did, with his defense backing him up and his babip factored in, in a single given year, but it is complete garbage for projecting how a pitcher will perform in the future.
by OlSalty on
Mar 30, 2008 10:03 AM PDT
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Ha
The only thing "xFIP" has done these last few years is prove how useless it is to predict what a pitchers' ERA will be.
This stat was introduced after the 2005 season, in late 2005 IIRC, so go look back from 2006 and 2007.
In 2007, there was a +/- .48 difference (yes, that's almost half a run) between a pitchers' xFIP (those with at least 160 innings pitched) and ERA, with over 76% of pitchers having a lower ERA than their xFIP.
In 2006, there was a +/- .53 difference between a pitchers' xFIP (those with at least 160 innings) and ERA, with over 82% of pitchers having a lower ERA than their xFIP.
Explain that. Why has it been so useless? Why? What's the explanation?
Also, that stat isn't even normalized properly. It's a mess of a "stat" which makes everyone look bad, unless you're an extreme GB pitcher or a GB pitcher with a high K/9. How else do you explain Washburn, who had a 11.0% HR/F rate, which is considered league average, have a .50 higher xFIP than his FIP in 2006? Especially in Safeco Field of all places!
How do you explain Chris Young, who had a 4.61 FIP and 4.95 xFIP, yet his HR/F was 13.2 that year, which is a tad higher than league average? And I don't need to remind you that he played in Petco Park.
This stat is absolutely useless and not even normalized properly. It's not even done correctly. It's a mess.
by Halos on
Mar 30, 2008 10:17 AM PDT
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Weaver pitched hurt in '07
He ain't hurt this year.
Also, he depends on the kind of deception that seems likely to dazzle upon first glance, and then settle into something more manageable as time goes by.
One thing that very good players will sometimes do -- produce stats that ain't what they "should be," at least according to those who believe in the inviobility (sic) of formulae. I'm sure Jim Palmer "had more regressing to do" each and every year. Doesn't mean he did. Just like Frankie Rodriquez' unsound delivery has utterly failed to blow out his arm, and Hee Sop Choi's semi-glorious future never did take hold. The world has more shades of gray than all that, and thank God.
I have no doubt that Weaver will continue to be better than he "should be," just as I have no doubt that people like you will continue to tell me that I'm an imbecilic retard swallowing "garbage" for believing that what I see is real. Such, such are the joys, etc.
by mattwelch on
Mar 30, 2008 10:18 AM PDT
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Well, first
You're actually not giving Bedard enough credit. His 2007 FIP was actually 3.15 (according to fangraphs). But you also clearly neglected to mention that the year before it was 3.65 and the year before that 3.67. So how did his 2005 and 2006 FIP predict his 2007 year? And for that matter, how did he lower his BABIP from .320 the previous 2 years to .295 last year, when that is supposedly a stat that measures how lucky a pitcher is?
I guess that means we have to assume that last year was a fluke for Bedard, and that he'll revert to a slightly better than league-average pitcher this year. Because my fancy stats told me so.
Wake me up on opening day.
by 101halo on
Mar 30, 2008 10:55 AM PDT
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Last 3 seasons with FIP
Lackey- 3.08, 3.41, 3.66
Bedard- 3.49, .3.71, 3.33
They're the same age and in their respective primes. Lackey has been better 2 of the last three seasons, and regression to the mean would predict a fall for his FIP vs a rise in Bedards. Overall, I'd say it's a wash.
Weaver- 3.99, 4.14
Hernandez- 2.88, 3.99, 3.81
Hernandez is fairly clearly the better pitcher of the two, but there are a couple of problems. Assumptions that Weaver will regress a bit more are predicated on his K-Rate remaining at 6.4 per game rather than 8.3 per game as it was in his first season. His minor league numbers were 13.4, 9.6, and 10.9 K/9, at A, AA, and AAA respectively, so there is some reason to believe he can bring that number back up.
On the other hand, Hernandez improving is largely dependent on his improving the number of HR given up per fly ball, and there really isn't much evidence for him being able to do that. Overall, advantage Hernandez.
Garland- 4.22, 4.41, 4.46
Washburn- 4.37, 4.86, 4.83
Garland is better, and still in his prime years, while Washburn is aging. Pretty definite advantage Garland.
Saunders- 4.15, 4.38
Silva- 4.17, 5.81, 4.35
Barring another epic collapse by Silva, these two would appear to be evenly matched, save that Saunders is younger and still has a good chance of improving. I'm calling it a wash.
Santana- 4.40, 4.38, 5.21
Batista- 4.13, 4.52, 4.63
Batista is getting old, with age's increasing chance of collapse, while Santana is still pretty young. Barring another 2007 collapse, Santana would be better than you could project Batista to be. Further, Santana has statistically been two VERY different pitchers away and at home. If his "home" numbers are considered to be the true indicators of his potential, he must be given a very high breakout chance, as his numbers would improve across the board should he overcome whatever his mental block is about pitching away. I think you have to give the advantage to Santana here, because his upside is WAY higher than Batista's, while their downsides are pretty much the same.
Overall advantage- still Angels, though not by as much as it would be if Escobar were still pitching for us.
~Till the Halo burns out...
by Zu Long on
Mar 30, 2008 11:27 AM PDT
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Don't forget the depth!
I don't know if Seattle is hiding a monster at the #6 or #7 spots, but I doubt it even more than I doubt they'll get 150 starts out of their top 5.
by mattwelch on
Mar 30, 2008 11:44 AM PDT
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FIP doesn't measure depth
And therefore depth must be irrelevant. ;-P
~Till the Halo burns out...
by Zu Long on
Mar 30, 2008 11:45 AM PDT
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Mariners have great durability
In 2003, they pulled this off:
5 starters, 162 starts. Not once did they need a #6 guy.
And in 2007 none of the regular position players spent any time on the DL.
It must be something in the coffee. Or it's the pot smoke that's drifting down from Canada.
Ain't no stoppin' us now. We got the groove!
by Fan Since 1981 on
Mar 30, 2008 1:12 PM PDT
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What, me worry?
Don't worry if he's not going nuts over-promoting the Angels.
Oh, my rooting interest is that most every analyst be the type of slow wit who would have predicted the Mariners at any time during last year. "Don't get cocky, kid," etc.
But I also think it's interesting to talk about how potentially overrated the Mariners' improved rotation is. Like their starting nine, it's paper-thin, not getting any younger, and filled with league-average guys. They *need* King F to take his Great Leap Forward, and for Bedard to stay healthy. The only thing we *need*, in comparison, is for Santana not to pitch like last year, and for Lackey to come back at some point.
by mattwelch on
Mar 30, 2008 8:52 AM PDT
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By the way...
...about Weaver, he didn't have his usual velocity that year. He couldn't put away hitters like he did in the past because he was injured and just didn't have his stuff. He didn't feel right the whole year. He couldn't do things he did before.
He came this season prepared. He's now 100% healthy, his velocity is back in the 92-94 mph range and he is putting away hitters like he did in the past.
How much do you want to bet that his ERA will be in the 3's this year?
by Halos on
Mar 30, 2008 10:36 AM PDT
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In the world of FIP...
... there is no betting. It is enough to know that you are Right, even/especially when the results stubbornly refuse to cooperate.
Funny how the arguments change, but the certainty never does. I remember well before the 2005 season arguing with the Beane-counters about what was a more important indicator of the future -- John Lackey's great second half of 2004, or his mediocre career up to that point; and also, what was more important between Kelvim Escobar's past mis-usage by former managers or his soon-to-be proper usage by Mike Scioscia (in addition to an improved Angel defense). Back then, they were all "history is the most important determinative"; now it's FIP and regressed-to-the-mean BABIP. In both cases I was a self-evident Neanderthal, and in both cases I was totally right. (Not that I'm not wrong often enough, etc.)
What's weird is that I've never argued that ERA+ is the most important indicator of future success....
by mattwelch on
Mar 30, 2008 11:02 AM PDT
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The only usefull information...
Is how well the team will perform given the forty man roster. Will these 40 players get the team into the playoffs?
Arguably, the Western division is the weakest of the three divisions, given the loss of Escobar and replacing him with Ervin or Moseley.
Both teams are pretty good. They have similar payrolls. But staying healthy as a team and not losing focus is what wins championships.
Seeing Santana with no mound concentration makes my stomach want to regurgitate.
I'm Hudd! Goodbye Phys!
by Hudd on
Mar 30, 2008 1:49 PM PDT
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Seattle is Overrated, BUT...
Watch out for Oakland this year. They've got a young, talented lineup with a lot of pop and potential. If Harden finally stays healthy and they get a first half repeat of last years Chad Gaudin they could hang around until September.
Every prognosticator and journalist east of Bristol are blowing their wads over Seattle because they got Bedard and Hernandez, but I totally agree with Matt that their lineup is nothing to go crazy for. Safeco's such a cavernous park that if Bedard stays healthy he should have a huge year, but the "king" will have a lot to prove this year and the pressure of having to produce could cause some regression.
Seattle will be the biggest disappointment in baseball...Yeah, I said it.
by KendrickExperience on
Mar 30, 2008 2:48 PM PDT
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Ugh
I can't wait for the season to start so we can look at the game on the field. I'm tired of all the debate and comparison of old numbers. Let's play this games! I've already got the March 11-13 circled for the first match up in Seattle.
You guys in California really do live in heaven, the Angels are in town for more than just six games and there is Jack in the Box within 200 miles.
by Erik121 on
Mar 30, 2008 2:57 PM PDT
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MARCH 11 - 13???
I think you mean APRIL 11 - 13...
by Rev Halofan on
Mar 30, 2008 6:00 PM PDT
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I'm glad you started this discussion.
I found this article yesterday and thought about posting about it myself............however, I didn't.
I usually find comfort reading Larry Stone's articles for knowledge and general information about the Mariners and baseball in general. Somehow, this one ticked me off.
by wumbug on
Mar 30, 2008 6:23 PM PDT
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Stone's bought the Nintendo Party Line
Optimism in the Seattle crack pipe.
by Rev Halofan on
Mar 30, 2008 7:18 PM PDT
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For the poll, where is the NONE option?
call me a homer, but I'm putting money on Weaver being better than Felix this year. Better odds.
Shopping for a new signature, but ran out of money...
by Downing Rules on
Mar 30, 2008 9:15 PM PDT
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RE: Weaver & Regression
A great post by Hardball Times writer Matthey Carruth, who occasionally posts on Lookout Landing, is "Identifying Candidates for Regression".
Regression isn't just the HR, K, and BB rates that FIP takes on, and Jered Weaver had sort of a perfect storm of good luck in his first year, particularly in LOB%, which no pitcher ever has shown an ability to consistently outperform (unlike BABIP). There's a bit on Weaver:
"PAST EXAMPLES
Jered Weaver, 2006.
-Weaver is perhaps the prototypical example. In 2006, Weaver struck out 23% more batters than you'd expect given his percentage of missed bats, he left 22% more men on base than normal, allowed a hit on 20% fewer balls in play than the league and had 21% fewer flyballs turn into home runs than you'd expect. Jered Weaver appeared on four the measurements and each one portended Weaver's 2007 to be worse than his 2006. So what happened? In 2007, Weaver saw his missed bat percentage drop to 7.83%, below league average (7.95%) and his K rate fell to minimally above league average (15.57%) to 15.97%. His BABIP went from .237 to .313. He went from stranding 86.2% of baserunners to 73.6%. His HR/FB% actually dropped, the only statistic he appears on for 2007, but again, one that suggests further regression. In 2006, Jered Weaver posted a 2.56 ERA coupled with a 3.99 FIP. In 2007, Weaver's ERA skyrocketed to 3.91 while his FIP remained relatively stable at 4.14."
by Fett42 on
Mar 31, 2008 6:16 AM PDT
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The same thing happened to Hernandez though
At least as far as a skyrocketing ERA after his first season. It's something that's fairly common with rookie pitchers, as the league adapts to their pitching style. The big question is whether or not Weaver can re-adjust himself in response. Recovering some lost velocity, as mentioned earlier, would certainly help. I've never been sold on the idea that a pitcher can't control how many homers they give up, and indeed, Nate Silver recently admitted that a smart pitcher like Tom Glavine can break run-prediction stats by altering his pitching methods to limit homeruns in certain situations.
Weaver could decrease his FIP by doing several things, but probably the big one is missing more bats. His K-rates in the minors suggest he is definitely capable of this.
~Till the Halo burns out...
by Zu Long on
Mar 31, 2008 7:07 AM PDT
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K rates
It has been shown fairly recently that even K rates are not constant, and depend on the percentage of swinging strikes (called strike rates have basically 0 correlation to strikeouts). Jered's swinging strike % in '06 predicted his K rate would fall, so whatever this difference in his stuff between '06 and '07 there wasn't a huge swinging strike %.
I'll agree his MiLB K rates are nice, but you'll want to start looing for how many swinging strikes he's getting early on, because unless that raises to a higher level than the last two years for som reason, its unlikely his K-rate will climb much. Now he is young so you can of course bet on the site of improvement.
As for exceptions to BABIP, HR/F, etc, they are definitely out there, but they are just that--exceptions. The problem is everyone always mentions that when arguing for whoever their pet pitcher is. Just because a Tom glavine or a Greg Maddux or a Pedro Martinez or a Jamie Moyer can often beat the .290-.310 BABIP doesn't mean X player can. Same for HR/FB rates. Best to go with the largest sample size possible when evaluating a player for this sort of thing (and at the MLB level, because things like BABIP break apart when not at MLB level competition).
by Fett42 on
Mar 31, 2008 8:08 AM PDT
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I like how you avoided the critique of Princess Felix
But please, don't let us stop you from rationalizing all you want...
by Rev Halofan on
Mar 31, 2008 8:54 AM PDT
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Deceptive Delivery
But you stat guys don't watch very many games. If he were to pull his head out numbers (trying to tear down an exciting player) and actually watch Weaver, he would see his unconventional delivery that is very deceptive.
Sea-at-ha-ha-ha that's funny.
by hauldog on
Mar 31, 2008 11:12 AM PDT
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Funny thing is...
There's more to a strikeout than just "missed bats". Striking out someone looking is also a strikeout. Not every pitcher will have the same ability to miss bats like a Kazmir, just like not every pitcher will have the same ability to freeze hitters and get called third strikes like a Jered Weaver. Besides, Weaver throws strikes. You usually see a lot more swing and misses with pitchers who are erratic and can't find the strike zone. Pitchers that throw strikes won't generate as many swing and misses because players are more prone to swinging strikes out of the strike zone, and some pitchers save their best stuff for the final strike. Not every pitcher pitches the same. Every pitcher has their own way of pitching and getting results...
Matthew is very good at distorting this stuff. He does his very best to discount the Angels every chance he gets, and it's not because he necessarily believes what he is saying is true. I'm willing to bet that he doesn't believe half the stuff he says. He's an M's fan. He is trying to remain optimistic for the season. I don't know what good will it do once the actual season starts, and the Angels just do what they have been doing since 2004, but whatever floats his boat.
I'm willing to make a bet with any M's fan that Weaver will have a much better year than last year. I'm going to go as far as saying that his 2008 season will be comparable to his 2006 in many ways. Maybe not quite as good, but he'll have a great season. His velocity is back, he's 100% healthy, he's putting away hitters like he did before, he knows how to minimize the damage and avoid big innings, he doesn't get rattled and he is simply a good pitcher. He knows how to pitch. Nothing more to it. He couldn't do the stuff he used to do in 2007 because he had arm problems. He didn't have his usual stuff and velocity.
by Halos on
Mar 31, 2008 8:20 AM PDT
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It's pretty simple math when you match up called strike % vs K rate
Something like a 0.03 corellation.
I'm not even arguing over whether Felix or Weaver will be better next year, though it seems most people who took the poll think that's the most likely rotation spot for the M's to be better. I don't understand the hostility to the idea the certain numbers are better predictors than others and that certain things tend to normalize over the course of a large sample size. Is it because its coming from a fan of a divisional rival?
by Fett42 on
Mar 31, 2008 9:00 AM PDT
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The thing is...
You probably don't watch Jered pitch and you don't know his tendencies. Weaver throws strikes. He gets ahead of hitters, and he can get the strikeout when he needs to. Before you know it, he puts you in an 0-2 count after throwing two moving fastballs, then uses his very good changeup or his high fastball to strike you out. Weaver is good at mixing up his pitches and changing speeds. He knows how to set you up and put you away. I know this because I watch him pitch. He can also spot a pitch anywhere he wants. He said so himself.
No, it doesn't matter where it comes from, It's just ridiculous that you would make assumptions about him as if he were a statistic. Weaver is human, not a name on a paper with numbers around it. You guys assume that these guys are all robots.. You assume that everyone is built the same way when it comes to mixing up pitches, changing speeds, knowing how to pitch and minimize damage, know how/when to set hitters up, when to go for the K. Some pitchers don't like wasting pitches, so they don't generate as many swings as others do, but that doesn't mean that they can't get the strikeout when they need to. Do you think every pitcher could spot a pitch exactly where they want to like Weaver could? Weaver generates most of his swing and misses when he strikes guys out. He knows how to set you up and he locates his pitches. Some pitchers simply know how to pitch, and Weaver knows how to pitch.
I hope one day you guys will start viewing them as human beings.
by Halos on
Mar 31, 2008 9:20 AM PDT
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Wow
Were you just describing Weaver or Carlos Silva? Because I just got flashbacks to descriptions of Carlos Silva's skillset.
by joof on
Mar 31, 2008 10:28 AM PDT
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Skillset?
Conning Nintendo out of millions of dollars? That skill set is shared by Silva and Jered's brother Jeff.
by Rev Halofan on
Mar 31, 2008 10:41 AM PDT
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Apples to oranges, my friend...
Apples to oranges.
by Halos on
Mar 31, 2008 10:43 AM PDT
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I Love
all the contortions into which these M's fans contort themselves, as they try to prove to themselves that Jered Weaver is not very good, and particularly not as good as their precious Viscount "King" Felix; I have no idea who will have a better career, but as of now, WTY has simply had more success.
by jjackflash on
Mar 31, 2008 8:49 AM PDT
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Next
They will hold their breath until they turn blue. Oh, too late...
by Rev Halofan on
Mar 31, 2008 8:55 AM PDT
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Or
to put it more bluntly: "Scoreboard!"
by jjackflash on
Mar 31, 2008 8:56 AM PDT
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Oh...
You also got to know how to put hitters away. Some pitchers have good stuff but don't know how to set hitters up and put them away. You have to learn when to throw certain pitches in different counts. If you let a hitter sit on your fastball, odds are you'll get crushed. If you let a hitter know what pitch is coming and you don't do anything to change speeds, change pitches, etc, odds are you'll get crushed and won't survive in the majors. Weaver mixes up his pitches, keeps hitters guessing, and he goes for the K when he needs one. Weaver also throws strikes. Weaver pitches like a veteran out there. He can get the strikeout when he needs one. You can't possibly sit here and say you know how Weaver pitches by just looking at his swinging strike % and assume things about him that way. That's the one thing some of these geeks fail to realize. These are actual people, not numbers. You can't seriously sit here and say that every pitcher has the same ability to set hitters up as everyone else, the ability to put hitters away, the ability to change speeds, mix up pitches and keep hitters guessing, that every pitcher pitches the same way, etc. Will every pitcher be mentally fit to pitch in pressure situations? Does every pitcher know how to avoid big innings by trying to minimize the damage? I can go on forever. I can go on forever. Is every pitcher built the exact same way to do these things? The answer is no.
I hope some of you stat geeks will start looking at these players as human beings and realize that they're not some statistic for your own amusement.
by Halos on
Mar 31, 2008 8:52 AM PDT
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There's
little doubt in my mind that Jered Weaver really knows how to pitch, and that's what some folks just don't get. There are myriad reasons why guys with average "stuff" such as Moyer, Glavine and Maddux succeed, but an important factor is that they simply know what they're doing on the mound. I'm not sure Hernandez has gotten there yet.
by jjackflash on
Mar 31, 2008 9:00 AM PDT
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Yep.
But the thing is, even after Weaver has a great season this year, there will always be someone like Matthew to discount it. Even when Weaver compiles 10 very good seasons in a row, Matthew would still discount him and everything he has accomplished in his career. Even though Matthew would look silly doing it, he would still discount everything he has accomplished. It's really a shame.
They could keep discounting pitchers like Glavine all the way to the Hall of Fame. :-)
by Halos on
Mar 31, 2008 9:29 AM PDT
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