Is Reagins willing to trade Adenhart?
by howiestheman on Jul 14, 2008 4:17 PM PDT
Email
PrintWell, according to Joel Sherman, he is.
"The wild card with Teixeira and, especially, Holliday is the Angels, who need a big bat and have hinted at a willingness to build a deal around pitching prospect Nick Adenhart."
While the thought of it is interesting, I don't know that I agree with the sentiment, especially when it involves Tex or Holliday. Both are great players but seem unlikely to appear in Halos' red.
Kotchman is too valuable to kick out. It's as simple as that. I have a hard time believing that Reagins would be willing to move Kotch in order to get Tex, though Mark would be a great asset to this team.
Holliday is an intriguing idea, but one that seems a bit far-fetched. The Rockies (or somebody else) would have to be willing tot ake on GMJ and part of his contract for this move to even begin to make some sense. Without that, Holliday won't be here, either.
So then, who is valuable enough to us that we are willing to trade Adenhart? It's all speculation as of now. I would have to argue, as I have before, that we need a young, powerful guy to complement the veterans we currently field. I'm talking about guys like Sizemore, Uggla, Howard, Fielder, Braun, etc. Nick Adenhart, though struggling mightly this year, is not a pitcher that we should be willing to just throw away. It's obvious, by the comments above, that teams are not afraid of his subpar year and still see the great potential that Adenhart has.
So who are the players we would be willing to trade Adenhart for?
This Fan-Post is authored by an independent fan. Tell us what you think and how you feel.
74 comments
|
0 recs |
Do you like this story?
Comments
Nobody!
Unless there’s a great young pitcher with favorable contract conditions. Adenhart hasn’t figured out how to pitch from the stretch just yet, but he’s 21 and has huge upside, and we need the pitching depth to save the $12 million on Garland to pay for other important stuff.
Good pitching is expensive, yet we pay less than most while getting some of the best of the stuff. It’s a foundational reason why we’ve been successful since 2004. I’d sure rather have both Kotch & Santana than just Miguel Cabrera at this point.
Adenhart = Expendable
Here’s my reasoning. It sure looks like he’s falling apart; better to get something for him while he still has value. At this rate, there is no reason to expect that he’d make the rotation in 2009, and by the time he is ready (2010), there might be someone else in the system (Jordan Walden? Trevor Reckling?) who has surpassed him…IF (big IF) he can bring something of value in return. Teixeira would fit that description. Matt Holliday? Not sure about that.
He is expendable
and that’s why nobody will take just him. They’ll want another big piece. The problem with trading him now is that we are selling low, not high.
~Till the Halo burns out...
Falling apart?
1.52 ERA with the bases clear. Like Matt said, trading him now is selling low. Stupid, stupid, stupid idea.
Witty .sig goes here.
Okay, that's not really a good metric to use.
Who DOESN’T have a good ERA with the bases clear? The only way to score like that is off solo homers- which won’t pile up very fast.
However one sign he might be turning it around was 8Ks to 2BBs in this last start. He also gave up 8 hits and 6 runs in 7 innings, but still, lowering BBs, raising Ks is the right direction.
~Till the Halo burns out...
6.98 ERA when ahead in the count
Is that good?
I bet a 1.52 ERA when the bases are empty is terrible. I bet that is worse than league average
Seattle I would like to thank you for sucking. It allows me to get back to my roots: Hating Fremont.
Kobe tell me how my ass tastes
what is crazy is that his ERA is higher when he is ahead in the count than it is when he is behind in the count/
strange…
I AM THOR, GOD OF THUNDER. BOW TO MY WILL AND MY HAMMER!
by anaheim angels on Jul 15, 2008 1:25 AM PDT up reply actions
Holliday
Would not be an improvement over Rivera. Holliday’s road OPS is over 200 pts below his Coors field inflated numbers. We have all the pieces, they just need to perform.
Remember Delino DeShields?
If you’re a Doyer fan, that name will live in infamy. And if we’re smart, Nick Adenhart will never leave this team.
You ever feel as if your mind had started to erode?
Boom........................Outta here
I’d move him in the right deal.
Seattle I would like to thank you for sucking. It allows me to get back to my roots: Hating Fremont.
Kobe tell me how my ass tastes
Tex and Kotch can play on the same team this year.
In the playoffs it would work really well.
Seattle I would like to thank you for sucking. It allows me to get back to my roots: Hating Fremont.
Kobe tell me how my ass tastes
Yeah.
A 21 year old pitcher in AAA plus other pieces for 2 and a half unnecessary months then the playoffs of one guy who MIGHT tip us over the top, and who has sworn up and down that he wants to re-sign on the East Coast. This doesn’t sound like a bad idea at all.
~Till the Halo burns out...
I never said I would trade additional pieces.
Find me a quote where Teixeira says that he “wants to resign on the east coast.” That is pure speculation IIRC.
Seattle I would like to thank you for sucking. It allows me to get back to my roots: Hating Fremont.
Kobe tell me how my ass tastes
A quote? I'll do you one better:
Here’s a detailed analysis of how Teixiera turned down 8 years $140 millon from Texas because he wants to play on the East Coast.
~Till the Halo burns out...
Wow ground breaking stuff there
I would not sign with Texas either. They were piss poorly run organization during his tenure.
Also where in there is there any evidence that he wants to be on the east coast?
Seattle I would like to thank you for sucking. It allows me to get back to my roots: Hating Fremont.
Kobe tell me how my ass tastes
And the Orioles, whom the article tells us he extolled, are a GREAT organization, right?
Also, he hits them for not wanting to spend money, but turns down their 8 year $140 million deal. Hmmm…
But hey, tell yourself whatever you want. It’s not like other players (Aramis Ramirez, Paul Konerko, spring to mind) have turned down money here in favor of backing up claims they want to play somewhere specific, right?
~Till the Halo burns out...
Because a blogger says it, it is fact?
I see pure speculation
Seattle I would like to thank you for sucking. It allows me to get back to my roots: Hating Fremont.
Kobe tell me how my ass tastes
A Ram was never a free agent technically we could not make an offer
Seattle I would like to thank you for sucking. It allows me to get back to my roots: Hating Fremont.
Kobe tell me how my ass tastes
Everyone and their dog knew we'd offer more than he took from the Cubs.
And the blogger makes a reference to radio interviews, that he believed most people had heard/read about. The Tom Hicks thing is a fact, Ken Rosenthal lit into him about talking about the attempted extension, go look it up in his archive.
Like I said, if you choose to disbelieve what’s right in front of you, that’s your choice. Just don’t expect me to agree, or appreciate the fact that you had me go search the internet for proof when you had no intention of accepting it.
~Till the Halo burns out...
I am not advocating resigning him Zu.
Seattle I would like to thank you for sucking. It allows me to get back to my roots: Hating Fremont.
Kobe tell me how my ass tastes
Trading for him if the price is right. A rental
Seattle I would like to thank you for sucking. It allows me to get back to my roots: Hating Fremont.
Kobe tell me how my ass tastes
Konerko spurned us. Soriano spurned us
I never said they didn’t but hey get all snippety and pissy because I do not think Mr Miyagi is a quality source
Seattle I would like to thank you for sucking. It allows me to get back to my roots: Hating Fremont.
Kobe tell me how my ass tastes
The window on our pitching is closing.
Seattle I would like to thank you for sucking. It allows me to get back to my roots: Hating Fremont.
Kobe tell me how my ass tastes
How can you say that?
We’ve got two all star starting pitchers who aren’t even arbitration elgible yet.
by HungryHunter on Jul 14, 2008 6:23 PM PDT up reply actions
I do not buy Saunders
Lackey is going to get really expensive
Frankie may be gone.
Seattle I would like to thank you for sucking. It allows me to get back to my roots: Hating Fremont.
Kobe tell me how my ass tastes
If Frankie's gone...
...it’ll be because he got greedy and someone was prepared to overpay.
If Lackey gets expensive, so be it. Look at the market, see how he feels about staying and then pay the man. That’s what you do with great players, and I think he’ll want to stay – he’s a genuine leader and he’s growing into the role. We won’t get him for nothing, but we’ll get him for a fair price.
You don’t have to buy Saunders, we’re getting him for next to nothing.
I see red people
That is what you do with great players......................................
WTF is Frankie?
Seattle I would like to thank you for sucking. It allows me to get back to my roots: Hating Fremont.
Kobe tell me how my ass tastes
Frankie
We all love K-Rod, but he is starting to decline. Yes he has a crap load of saves this year, but his other IMPORTANT numbers tell a different story. If he wants to stick around for say 4 years 48 mil, I am on board. But if he is looking for 15 mil per year I say “SEE YA”.
Light up the Freakin Halo!
He is not in decline. That is absurd.
Seattle I would like to thank you for sucking. It allows me to get back to my roots: Hating Fremont.
Kobe tell me how my ass tastes
Well if you exclude the period where he was effected by an ankle injury I would say this year is great.
Seattle I would like to thank you for sucking. It allows me to get back to my roots: Hating Fremont.
Kobe tell me how my ass tastes
You probably are not taking into account his change in pitching style
Seattle I would like to thank you for sucking. It allows me to get back to my roots: Hating Fremont.
Kobe tell me how my ass tastes
He is now pitching with a long career in mind.
I see him and am no longer worried that his arm will explode.
by TheTypingFiend on Jul 16, 2008 11:16 AM PDT up reply actions
Uh...
Frankie signing for market price (but with another team) = Frankie got greedy and someone overpaid.
but…
Lackey signing for market price (but with the Halos) = That’s what you do with great players.
Don’t you see some bias there?
A great starter has much more value than a great reliever.
And there’s the question of whether Frankie will continue to be a great reliever considering the tight rope he’s been walking this year while accumulating all those saves.
All that means is that
(everything else being equal) the market value for a starter should be higher than the market value for a reliever. Of course, if the market at the time is flooded with quality starters but there in only a single premier releiever, the dollars may not play out the way you would think.
In any event, I was commenting not on the relative prices, but on the words “greedy” and “overpaid”. Those are value judgements that exposed an emotion.
Frankie's not looking for market rate...
...he’s looking to set the market. If Lackey takes that approach I’ll be very surprised.
And yes, I admit my bias. Lackey has always struck me as a team player, Frankie as someone who will always put himself first (just my opinion). So if I have to choose between the two, I don’t think it’d be too much of a choice.
Don’t get me wrong. I’d love to see Frankie stay, he’s a great player, I just don’t think he’s a team guy.
I see red people
You are probably right.
Closers may tend to be loners, and I cannot recall reading/seeing/hearing how Frankie chums with the crew. Maybe it comes with the disposition. Certainly there needs to be some huge amount of confidence that others would consider arrogance.
Anyway, it is kind of a rule of the market that even though Frankie may set a new market price, that new price BECOMES the market rate. It’s what the market was willing to bear.
(I am not an economist, for the record, but I do wonder about how imperfect the free-agent market is. I do not believe that it is a “free market”, since not all buyers have full and complete knowledge during bidding. And I do NOT agree in market rate standards, primarily because one team’s needs at one point in time need not have any bearing on the balance of the buyers at all future times in the market.)
Saunders has got to be getting your attention...
he has done nothing but pitch well and WIN for the Angels…his stats ...Is he pitching over his head? Maybe/probably somewhat, but who knows? No one is saying he is a #1 starter, but he sure has saved our bacon this season and that W-L of 27-13 and career era of 4.07 should be getting your attention!
This is BAD Vlad and his band of wimps! (can't change it now, cuz the last time I did...he started sucking again!)
I appreciate all of that, but he has a tendency to wear down and I do not see that changing this year.
Seattle I would like to thank you for sucking. It allows me to get back to my roots: Hating Fremont.
Kobe tell me how my ass tastes
Consistency = Saunders
I see little reason Joe should wear down this season…One of his trademarks this season has been to get early count outs. I have been impressed!
He just turned 27 yrs old. He pitched 194 combined innings last season, 206 in 2006, and 170 in 2005. His outings have been consistent. He gets the ball and throws it. He typically gets deep in games on decent pitch counts.
We will see! :) I really like his “mound presence!” He reminds me of Lackey on the mound.
This is BAD Vlad and his band of wimps! (can't change it now, cuz the last time I did...he started sucking again!)
I hope you are right
I guess I was fixated on the June 9th start against TB.
Seattle I would like to thank you for sucking. It allows me to get back to my roots: Hating Fremont.
Kobe tell me how my ass tastes
Consistency, eh?
3.05 ERA before the break, 5.04 after. That’s consistency? Well, I guess if you mean that he’s a first half pitcher, sure.
Witty .sig goes here.
small sample size
plus, he’s never pitched an entire season in the MLB.
let’s see what happens this year
Mike Scioscia: He provides to unlike method of your team member.
by howiestheman on Jul 16, 2008 3:28 PM PDT up reply actions
A lack of innings does not exactly help your cause on this one
It appears as the innings pile him his performance diminishes.
Seattle I would like to thank you for sucking. It allows me to get back to my roots: Hating Fremont.
Kobe tell me how my ass tastes
And just like Ervin Santana's tendency to suck in away games
this pattern of Saunders falling off over the season will continue forever, right?
~Till the Halo burns out...
No not saying it will
But I will stick with that theory until he disproves it.
Seattle I would like to thank you for sucking. It allows me to get back to my roots: Hating Fremont.
Kobe tell me how my ass tastes
Trade Adenhart? NO.
First, my scouting take:
From what I watched of Adenhart I was impressed with the velocity and movement of his fastball. He was topping out at 94 mph and his fastball had good life. His curveball was solid: good sharp break. So from a pure scouting standpoint, I like his stuff. At this time his command is the issue, but I believe that can be corrected.
The stat/SABR take (PITCH f/x).
(PITCH f/x is a system used to determine the speed of a thrown baseball exactly at the time it is released, as well as locate its movements.)
Could my scouting impression be backed up by something objective? I decided to compare Adenhart’s “stuff” using PITCH f/x.
MPH is the average initial velocity of the pitch. X is the amount of horizontal movement on the pitch. A negative X value means the pitch is moving toward a righthanded batter. Z is the amount of vertical movement on the pitch. The lower the Z value, the more downward movement on the pitch.
Fastballs: Adenhart vs. Beckett vs. Garland
MPH…..X…....Z
93…...-9.7… 9.8
95.5…-7.2….8.7
91.7…-7.5…9.5
Curveballs: Adenhart vs. Beckett vs. Garland
77.5…..4.3…..-8.7
77.9…..5.8…..-4.5
77.2…..1.5…..-1.3
Changeups: Adenhart vs. Beckett vs. Garland
84…...-10.4…..9.2
89.9…-7.5…....4.2
82…....-9.4…...7.4
I am in NO WAY suggesting Adenhart is going to be the next Beckett. I simply wanted to measure his “stuff” against an ace right-hander (Beckett) and the Angels own Jon Garland. Adenhart is still a young, but his raw stuff measures up very nicely (check out the drop on his curve ball). And remember, these are the numbers of a 21-year old (most likely nervous) rookie. I hope the Angels hang on to Adenhart; he might not be a future ace but I think he can be a very solid #3 starter, as well as a being a much cheaper replacement for Garland in 2009.
(Here’s the link to Adenhart’s PITCH f/x data)
http://baseball.bornbybits.com/2008/Nick_Adenhart.html
Ain't no stoppin' us now. We got the groove!
I seem to remember. . .
Ramon Ortiz also had good looking stuff and looked brilliant when nobody was hitting. I don’t have the numbers to compare those particular stats but pitching is more than just speed and ball movement.
Without good location and a solid mental makeup (ability to forget the last pitch), a pitcher is useless. I have seen nothing from Adenhart that says he has those two qualities. Until I do, he is just potential that can be traded for a proven commodity. I will always take a proven commodity over unproven potential that might pan out someday.
Proven commodity vs. unproven potential
Via Lexis-Nexis, I was able to retrieve the following article from the Los Angeles Times July 29 ,2002 edition. Here are direct copy-and-paste statements from that article:
Stoneman Loses Shuey to Dodgers
The Angels lost out on one of the players they most coveted in trade, when General Manager Bill Stoneman refused to include his top prospects in a proposed deal for Cleveland reliever Paul Shuey.
The Angels believed that Shuey would have made an ideal acquisition, since he is a proven setup man and not a closer who would have to adjust to a setup role. The Angels are believed to have offered two prospects for Shuey.
In the four-player trade, the Dodgers gave up two promising pitchers, one their top-ranked pitching prospect and another a Class-A pitcher with 111 strikeouts in 113 innings, neither older than 23. An equivalent trade for the Angels would have included dazzling triple-A right-hander Francisco Rodriguez, 20, and a top lower-level prospect such as right-hander Johan (now known as Ervin) Santana, 18, a deal Stoneman would not make.
Ain't no stoppin' us now. We got the groove!
by Fan Since 1981 on Jul 15, 2008 5:13 AM PDT up reply actions
Stoneman Loses Shuey to Dodgers
The article is still available online and can be viewed here:
http://articles.latimes.com/2002/jul/29/sports/sp-angelrep29
Ain't no stoppin' us now. We got the groove!
by Fan Since 1981 on Jul 15, 2008 5:21 AM PDT up reply actions
The deal
Dodgers gave up Terry Mulholland, a guy named Ricardo Rodriguez (last pitched for Texas in 2005; career 10-15, 5.18), and Francisco Cruceta (currently a reliever for the Tigers; career 0-4, 7.96 in 26 IP). Meanwhile, Shuey went 5-2 with one save down the stretch in 2002, but was not particularly effective with a 4.40 ERA. He was OK in 2003 (6-4, 3.00) but was injured & out of baseball until 2007 (0-1, 9.82 for the Orioles).
One of the best deals Dan Evans ever made
Shuey had injury problems throughout most of his career, but his 2003 with the Dodgers was just lights-out brilliant. Mulholland was careening toward the end of his career, Ricardo Rodriguez was nothing, and so was Cruceta. A similar deal that Evans pulled off was fetching Paul Quantrill and Cesar Izturis from Toronto for Luke Prokopec and Chad Ricketts in the 2001/2 offseason. He also got Dave Roberts for Christian Bridenbaugh and Nial Hughes. His in-season deals were pretty weak: Rickey Henderson in his last season in the majors when he clearly had nothing, and trades for Jeromy Burnitz and Robin Ventura that, while unloading players of some potential, Scott Proctor in particular, were obvious desperation deals.
Witty .sig goes here.
Santana
Is the Santana mentioned in that article Ervin, not Johan as stated? I’ve never heard of a pitching prospect in the Angels system called Johan Santana, although I wasn’t following the team that closely in 2002
Ervin
was originally thought to be named Johan, or he was using that name, or something along those lines. So, those references to “Johan” really mean “Ervin.”
I tried to play that card in another thread
The sarcasm didn’t work. Ervin was born “Johan” and used that as he came through the minor league system. He changed it because of the pending confusion.
Adenhart is 21. He has another 2 years to figure it out before we should try to unload him.
He needs time and familiarity. If he stays at AAA, hell be fine.
I AM THOR, GOD OF THUNDER. BOW TO MY WILL AND MY HAMMER!
by anaheim angels on Jul 15, 2008 12:13 PM PDT up reply actions
Panther
Angel Pitching, Angel Defense - get past that.
by vladtheimpaler on Jul 16, 2008 4:16 AM PDT up reply actions
Comments For This Post Are Closed
Secondary Sidebar
User Tools
FanPosts
Community blog posts and discussion.
Recommended FanPosts
Recent FanPosts
In Association With
Big League Stew - MLB - Yahoo! Sports
- College player makes impossible over the fence catch to save tournament game (Video)
- Security!: Camden Yards guard collides with Royals’ Mike Moustakas
- The Juice: Nelson Cruz matches career high eight RBIs, Pujols stays hot in Seattle
- Benches clear at Fenway as Red Sox-Rays rivalry heats up
- Keeping good company: Albert Pujols becomes fourth-youngest player to hit 450 home runs
