Francisco Rodriguez for MVP?!

by TheOptimist on Jul 23, 2008 7:31 PM PDT Comment 40 comments

So I'm watching Baseball Tonight just for giggles and the Angels highlight comes up. Garko's HR, Mathis' GS, last out for the save, cursory mention of good offensive afternoon for HK, CK, and Jeff while the boxscore is shown, etc. Standard. Then they do a segment called inside pitch and bring on Peter Gammons. Are you sitting down? Not drinking anything? OK, PETER GAMMONS says K-Rod should get serious MVP consideration. Read that sentence again after you've finished your mental spittake. Then consider that he has a point. In a year where nobody in the AL has an OPS over 1.000 besides Milton Bradley, K-Rod is poised not just to break but to smash the single season saves record. And when you consider how the Angels have won this year (consistently winning close contests, great record against tough opponents, pulling out the hard fought victories) I think the idea might have some merit. I don't know if I'd give it to him, but Franky might be worth a top 5 vote, atleast.

This Fan-Post is authored by an independent fan. Tell us what you think and how you feel.

0 recs | Comment 40 comments

Story-email Email Printer Print

Comments

I doubt this place would vote Frankie for TEAM MVP.

Wouldn’t he have to be the MVP on the squad BEFORE this place would think of him as MVP for the LEAGUE?

Francisco Rodriguez: 188 career saves. 2 career Panthers, tied with Hector Carrasco.

by Stirrups on Jul 23, 2008 8:09 PM PDT reply actions 0 recs

Not necessarily.

The MVP voters gave it to Rollins last year, and most people agreed he wasn’t MVP of his own team, same thing with Justin Morneau. If Peter Gammons is talking you up, then it’s possible K-Rod has a shot. MVP is all about winning rather than dominating. Even if Rivera or Lee gets the Cy, Frankie could get MVP because of the way he’s held the line all season.

In my book, Frankie definitely gets consideration for Team MVP, which is different from game panthers. I think Frankie is also tops in Cumulative WP Added over on Fangraphs for us, though he’s not for the league.

~Till the Halo burns out...

by Zu Long on Jul 23, 2008 8:17 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs

But Optimist is not offering this up to MVP voters.

He is offering this up to us here at HH. You and I know better.

Francisco Rodriguez: 188 career saves. 2 career Panthers, tied with Hector Carrasco.

by Stirrups on Jul 23, 2008 8:29 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs

No, he was reporting about GAMMONS talking about this.

The question mark denotes his surprise.

~Till the Halo burns out...

by Zu Long on Jul 23, 2008 9:01 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs

Yeah, no.

Today’s “save” really cements how completely bogus the save statistic is. Honestly, one pitch? And he gets the save? This isn’t his best year as a pitcher, it’s just the year that he’s had a ridiculous number of save opportunities. He’ll definitely break the record the way the Angels offense is, but what does that really mean? It’s like measuring how great a player is by his number of RBIs. So, yeah, you got a hit when a player was in scoring position..how is that something you can control enough to make it a designation of how good you are as a player? Frankie plays for an inning, gets three outs, and if the score is right, then he gets this mysterious “save.” He’s not even the MVP of his own team.

by RubixsQube on Jul 23, 2008 8:50 PM PDT reply actions 0 recs

Except that the vast majority of K-Rod's saves have been full innings with the opponents within 1-2 runs.

And it depends on what you mean by MVP. A lot of stat heads measure MVP using VORP these days, which measures runs added over a replacement player at your position. I’m not sure what the exact conversion to wins is for VORP, but BP also has WINS added over another relief pitcher.

I wonder if we have another reliever, a Huston Street or a Bobby Jenks or a Todd Jones, are we this far ahead of the A’s? If we aren’t 6 games up at the break, does Beane concede the season? I think there’s a pretty good case for K-Rod being the MVP, given how many of our wins have been by the skin of our teeth.

~Till the Halo burns out...

by Zu Long on Jul 23, 2008 9:09 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs

This reminds me - a guy at the game today mentioned he didn't "understand why Scioscia keeps bringing him in to close the game".

He mentioned that everybody is getting Frankie out of the trouble that Frankie himself creates. Of course, he has a bit of a point – we all know how Frankie likes to make things interesting in the 9th. However, as I’ve mentioned before, the dude now has 42 saves out of 45 opportunities. That’s a 93.3% success rate. If I know that something is going to work out fine 93.3% of the time; I take it!

by infant on Jul 23, 2008 9:40 PM PDT reply actions 0 recs

Well, you don't actually know that something is going to work out in this case 93.3% of the time, you only know that it has so far this year.

I think we should be concerned with the number of people he lets on base. If he were a setup guy, he be heavily criticized for allowing inhereted runners to score. With his 1 inning saves, he has more room for error than Shields or Arredondo. Arredondo is the true top performer in our bullpen.

by snowhor on Jul 23, 2008 9:55 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs

Sorry, in line 2 I meant he'd be and inherited

by snowhor on Jul 23, 2008 9:56 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs

Except Dondo hasn't been all that great with inherited runners.

Case in point, 2 from O’Day scored today.

~Till the Halo burns out...

by Zu Long on Jul 23, 2008 10:06 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs

Case in point, take 2: Dondo in last two games.

Single
K
Ground out
Single
Fielder’s choice
Single
Fielder’s choice
Fielder’s choice
BB
Single (run scored. run scored.)
Fly out to CF
Single
K
K
Double (run scored)

Francisco Rodriguez: 188 career saves. 2 career Panthers, tied with Hector Carrasco.

by Stirrups on Jul 23, 2008 10:16 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs

True. We only know it has worked out fine for 93.3% of the time.

I don’t feel like looking all the number up and calculating the possibly more precise guess (ok, educated guess maybe) but we all know Frankie, in general, gets the job done.

That’s not to say the guy doesn’t freak me out everytime he enters the game. I’ve been to 1 (ONE!) game in the past year and a half where he actually went 1-2-3 in the 9th. I’ve been to quite a few games over that period and seen Frankie pitch plenty of times, yet he only went 1-2-3 once. However, in all those times, he never blew a save either.

To sum it up, I guess what I’m trying to say is that yes, I have my concerns but no, I don’t see anyone else in the 9th doing the job as good, or better, than Frankie.

by infant on Jul 23, 2008 10:03 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs

Oh and I forgot to add that...

Sure, it’d be awesome if Frankie would strike out the side on 9 pitches every time he gets out there. Bottom line though (and it took me a while to realize) is that I don’t care HOW he gets the save as long as he actually GETS the save.

by infant on Jul 23, 2008 10:11 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs

This is what Percival taught him, I think

Percival would talk about giving up walks rather than challenge big hitters in one run games and taking runs for outs in games that weren’t as close. The only job a closer has is to make sure that when the team has a W in the works when they enter, that W is in the books by the time they leave. Everything else is noise.

~Till the Halo burns out...

by Zu Long on Jul 23, 2008 10:23 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs

Agree

Although if you would’ve told me this last year, I would’ve probably said something like “the guy makes millions of dollars, somebody that makes 8x less is able to go 1/2/3, why can’t he”.

Frankie gets the job done way more often than not. That’s all that matters.

by infant on Jul 23, 2008 10:33 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs

I'm not saying that he should have 1-2-3 inning every night.

I’m just saying that the role of a setup guy who has come in with inherited runners on base in the 7th and 8th is a tougher and more valuable job than someone starts the 9th. I like Frankie and I think he’s a very good closer, one of the best but not the best.

by snowhor on Jul 24, 2008 9:46 AM PDT up reply actions 0 recs

No

I saw Gammons say that too. Closers are not MVPs almost by definition. It would be hard enough for a pitcher to be an MVP, let alone a closer who pitches one inning a game.

by HungryHunter on Jul 23, 2008 10:25 PM PDT reply actions 0 recs

Yeah, pitchers almost never win the MVP. Too many writer's won't vote for them because they don't play every day

Gather around, children, for the Legend of Mighty Kirk McCaskill

by HaloDutch on Jul 24, 2008 1:31 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs

its weird

i would NEVER call him an mvp candidate

but if he keeps saving such a huge % of our wins, wouldnt that make him extremely valuable to the team’s success?

you could argue that the guy responsbile for perserving so many close wins for the offense is one of the most valuable guys on the team.

but i would still not call him a league MVP. thats just silly.

by ihearhowie2.0 on Jul 24, 2008 12:00 AM PDT reply actions 0 recs

This is just ESPN hype.

Frankie is going to be one of their big off season stories as he becomes a free agent and command the highest salary for an MLB closer. It will be a day to day front page story on which spotlighted east coast teams compete for his services, how much will they pay to get him, and will it be a record breaking trend setting amount paid. ESPN is just fluffing him now for the money shot later in the season.

by 44FAN on Jul 24, 2008 2:46 AM PDT reply actions 0 recs

His numbers are not MVP caliber. End of story.

Dude they are not CY Young caliber

Seattle I would like to thank you for sucking. It allows me to get back to my roots: Hating Fremont.

Kobe tell me how my ass tastes

by hauldog on Jul 24, 2008 9:40 AM PDT reply actions 0 recs

I agree with you that that Frankie is not AL MVP.

But it is a vote. And there are no formal “numbers” that are used as a standard reference, upon which voters rely in casting their votes. Therefore it is subjective. And the result is self-fulfilling. By that I mean that if enough voters decide according to their own personal “numbers” that Frankie is MVP, and Frankie wins MVP, then Frankie’s numbers are, by definition, MVP caliber.

Of course, with the AL West as bad as it is, it would be hard to figure out a way that the Angels without Frankie fail to still make the playoffs. And that is usually the initial benchmark voters use…

Francisco Rodriguez: 188 career saves. 2 career Panthers, tied with Hector Carrasco.

by Stirrups on Jul 24, 2008 1:37 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs

Agreed it is a vote

Many columns I have read on the CY Young at the half way, which are written by people who vote do not mention Frankie at all. Some mentioned Mo.

My point is I do not think the people who vote for this are bowled over by gaudy save numbers. A lot of the hype surrounding Gagme was due to his scoreless innings streak consecutive saves record and something to do with lack of issued walks. None of which Frankie has going for him.

Seattle I would like to thank you for sucking. It allows me to get back to my roots: Hating Fremont.

Kobe tell me how my ass tastes

by hauldog on Jul 24, 2008 2:41 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs

Chicks dig the long ball.

Francisco Rodriguez: 188 career saves. 2 career Panthers, tied with Hector Carrasco.

by Stirrups on Jul 24, 2008 3:19 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs

I thought chicks dug scars?

You lied to me, Keanu!!

Gather around, children, for the Legend of Mighty Kirk McCaskill

by HaloDutch on Jul 24, 2008 3:24 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs

ESPN's Cy Predictor, authored by no less a stat personage than Bill James himself,

has K-Rod second only to Carlos Lee. Don’t underestimate the importance to a lot of writers of setting a single season record like this. This is like breaking the record for doubles, or runs scored, or stolen bases. And Franky’s not on pace to just break it, but to crush it. That’s going to weigh on a lot of writers minds, especially the ones who hate sabermetrics and like to think of the game as one of coming through in the clutch, stepping up your game when it matters, etc.

*Visiting Angels fan* Never give up, never surrender!

by TheOptimist on Jul 24, 2008 5:43 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs

I think you mean Cliff Lee.

Carlos is an OF who plays for Houston. :-P

~Till the Halo burns out...

by Zu Long on Jul 24, 2008 6:48 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs

Miss Cleo says Josh Hamilton will win it.

by Higz on Jul 24, 2008 1:08 PM PDT reply actions 0 recs

I have a problem with Miss Cleo...

Why, when you call, do they ask who you are, and what your problem is.

They’re PSYCHICS!!! Shouldn’t they already know?

Angels fan since '67

by red floyd on Jul 24, 2008 4:13 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs

Miss Cleo knew you would ask that question.

If you pay another $6.99, she’ll answer it.

by Higz on Jul 24, 2008 4:26 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs

What I find most interesting about HH's reaction to this is that on another, mixed-fan board I read

Several fans of other teams give K-Rod a decent shot at it.

~Till the Halo burns out...

by Zu Long on Jul 24, 2008 1:41 PM PDT reply actions 0 recs

I've noticed this as well

Fans of other teams have a higher overall opinion of Frankie than we tend to;. I assume this is because they see him on ESPN’s 15 seconds of Angels coverage striking out guys to end games and they see his numbers and think “Man, that guy’s awesome!” But they don’t see the near-misses, the cardiac-arrest-inducing innings,his struggles when called in to tied games….all the things that drive us nuts. Just my theory.

Gather around, children, for the Legend of Mighty Kirk McCaskill

by HaloDutch on Jul 24, 2008 3:21 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs

Maybe they see his success rate, imagine that imposed on THEIR closer,

and realize that having Frankie would put THEIR team at or near the top of their division and in the playoff hunt. There is a huge value proposition there, between being an Angels fan and, say, that of this season’s Cincinatti. “One guy could do that? Man, MVP!”

Francisco Rodriguez: 188 career saves. 2 career Panthers, tied with Hector Carrasco.

by Stirrups on Jul 24, 2008 3:35 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs

Or maybe ALL closers do that stuff

And some people have been massively spoiled the past four years.

~Till the Halo burns out...

by Zu Long on Jul 24, 2008 6:49 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs

Frankie for MVP

He deserves serious consideration for Angels MVP and, if he breaks the save record, league MVP.

If Frankie had signed a long term contract at the beginning of the season, I think a lot of HHers would be on the band wagon. Knowing that there is a good chance he won’t be here next year is affecting everyones perception.

Angel Pitching, Angel Defense - get past that.

by vladtheimpaler on Jul 24, 2008 3:48 PM PDT reply actions 0 recs

Fans are emotional

Do we even understand what kind of music is being played, when K-Rod comes out of the bullpen?

K-Rod has given Angels’ fans nothing to fawn and gush about. He’s given fans near heart attacks and in some instances has seem to imply, he isn’t going to give the team a second consideration, as far as signing his next contract.

If this was any other reliever doing what K-Rod has done [let’s say a Troy Percival, Eric Gagme or Trevor Hoffman], his performances would not be nitpicked and he would be considered a serious candidate.

by BBFan1 on Jul 24, 2008 4:55 PM PDT reply actions 0 recs

The kind of music is Reggaeton...but I don't know what is being said...

Sandungueoso" by Tego Calderon

Aja!
Tego Calde’!
Kilateao’ hasta el Ocho de Basto!
(Hey!)
(El negro jiguirri!)

Oye, más sandungueoso que de costumbre
Pa’ que cuando suene yo la pista se inunde
Y se lo goze cada cual a su manera
De nuevo Calde’ hace que suceda

Sin prisa, pero sin pausa
Vamo’a allauca
Que fue, te dieron vómitos y nauseas
Lúcete, y tu veras, otra vez
Órale, no le quites, póngale
__, ya se les acabe el bembe
A los tres mosqueros sepulte
Mandale flores del Abayarde
Díganle, lo mas lindo se les ve
Mienguere, mucho songo venderé
Tranquilen, no se me desesperen
Ya llegue, metiéndole chévere
Kilateao’ hasta el Ocho de Basto
El negro jiguirri

Oye, más sandungueoso que de costumbre
Pa’ que cuando suene yo la pista se inunde
Y se lo goze cada cual a su manera
De nuevo Calde’ hace que suceda
Mama, más sandungueoso que de costumbre
Pa’ que cuando suene yo la pista se inunde
Y se lo goze cada cual a su manera
De nuevo Calde’ hace que suceda

Yo soy el tártaro, el bárbaro
Maldigo como carimbo a esos dos
Cambien flow, huye como la marea
Galopea, báilalo como sea, nena
Pero donde yo te vea, Dulcinea
Dale suave, que lo tuyo llega
A mi me encanta como tu meneas
Promedio perfecto, me sobran los elementos
Aprovecho mi momento, sin comer cuentos
Están pronosticando mi caída
Los cantantes de la mentira
Me saludan, y de espalda tiran
El Abayarde, el que sirve, sirve
Oye, y tengo balas de to’s calibres
Que le gustan al guillao’
Y se las vive el humilde
Pa’ to’ esa gente que no se rinde
Los domino sin venderles cuentos chinos
Con las gomas siempre, pai
Genuino, genuino
Sin prisa, pero sin pausa
Vamo’a allauca
Que fue, te dieron vómitos y nauseas
Lúcete, y tu veras, otra vez
Órale, no le quites, póngale
__, ya se les acabe el bembe
A los tres mosqueros sepulte
Mandale flores del Abayarde
Díganle, lo mas lindo se les ve
Mienguere, mucho songo venderé
Tranquilen, no se me desesperen
Ya llegue, metiéndole chévere
Kilateao’ hasta el Ocho de Basto
El negro jiguirri

Mama, más sandungueoso que de costumbre
Pa’ que cuando suene yo la pista se inunde
Y se lo goze cada cual a su manera
De nuevo Calde’ hace que suceda
Mama, más sandungueoso que de costumbre
Pa’ que cuando suene yo la pista se inunde
Y se lo goze cada cual a su manera
De nuevo Calde’ hace que suceda

Oye, ustedes!
Que están chicharreandome!
Oye, la silla están velándome!
Ustedes creen que soy el sapo del mes!
Humildemente, los aplaste!
Oye, con LunyTunes y Noriega!
Mira quien llega!
Fiel a la brega, mas que a la vega!
Cosa buena!
Mueve la batea, galopea!
El Abayarde!
Tego Calde’!
Oye, pa’ que mangues!
Kilateao’ hasta el Ocho de Basto!
Kilateao!
Oye, pa’ que mangues!

by Downing Rules on Jul 24, 2008 5:45 PM PDT reply actions 0 recs

Translated

IT MAKES EVEN LESS SENSE:

Aja!
Tego Calde ’!
Kilateao ‘until Eight of Basto!
(Hey!)
(The black jiguirri!)

Hey, Sandunga more than usual
Pa ‘that sounds when I was flooded runway
And they enjoy what everyone in their own way
Again Calde ‘makes it happen

Without haste, but without pause
Vamo’a Allauca
That was, we were vomiting and nausea
Lúcete, and you really, again
Oral not remove him, put
__ Since they finished the Bembe
In the three buried Mosquera
Mandala flowers Abayarde
Tell, the most beautiful you can see
Mienguere much Songo sell
Tranquility, I do not despair
Since arriving, putting cool
Kilateao ‘until Eight of Basto
The black jiguirri

Hey, Sandunga more than usual
Pa ‘that sounds when I was flooded runway
And they enjoy what everyone in their own way
Again Calde ‘makes it happen
Mama, more than usual Sandunga
Pa ‘that sounds when I was flooded runway
And they enjoy what everyone in their own way
Again Calde ‘makes it happen

I am the Tatar, barbaric
Carimbo curse as these two
Change flow, as the tide flees
Galopea, as Bailalo, nena
But where I see you, Dulcinea
Dale soft, which yours arrives
I love me as your Mena
Average perfect, I on elements
I take my time without eating stories
They are predicting my downfall
The singers of lies
I greet, and pull back
El Abayarde, which serves, serves
Hey, I have to’s calibre bullets
Who likes to guillao ‘
And they live humble
Pa ‘to’ those people who do not surrender
The domino unsold Chinese stories
With gums always, pai
Genuine, genuine
Without haste, but without pause
Vamo’a Allauca
That was, we were vomiting and nausea
Lúcete, and you really, again
Oral not remove him, put
__ Since they finished the Bembe
In the three buried Mosquera
Mandala flowers Abayarde
Tell, the most beautiful you can see
Mienguere much Songo sell
Tranquility, I do not despair
Since arriving, putting cool
Kilateao ‘until Eight of Basto
The black jiguirri

Mama, more than usual Sandunga
Pa ‘that sounds when I was flooded runway
And they enjoy what everyone in their own way
Again Calde ‘makes it happen
Mama, more than usual Sandunga
Pa ‘that sounds when I was flooded runway
And they enjoy what everyone in their own way
Again Calde ‘makes it happen

Hey, you!
What are horse mackerel!
Hey, the chair are sailing!
You believe that I am the toad of the month!
Humbly, crush!
Hey, with LunyTunes and Noriega!
Watch who comes!
True to the fighting, rather than the plain!
Good Thing!
Move the shelf, galopea!
El Abayarde!
Tego Calde ’!
Hey, pa ‘Swamps!
Kilateao ‘until Eight of Basto!
Kilateao!
Hey, pa ‘Swamps!

by Rev Halofan on Jul 24, 2008 6:28 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs