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Angels scalping their own seats on Stubhub?

Tiny by HungryHunter on

Check out the 8/8 Angels vs. Yankees game: http://www.stubhub.com/los-angeles-angels-tickets/angels-vs-yankees-8-8-2008-505253/

Normally, only season ticket holders can list their tickets for instant delivery.  At the same time, the left field pavillion is not open to season ticket holders (there are a few holdouts from the old days, but not many).

Now check out the 8/8 Angels vs. Yankees game on Stubhub.  There are over 400 listings in the left field pavillion with instant delivery.  The listings are all priced similarly and at $5 intervals and have very similar notes.

Is there another explanation for this or is it indeed obvious that the Angels are scalping their own tickets without putting them on the primary market?

This Fan-Post is authored by an independent fan and may or may not be a reflection of human evolution, divine enlightenment or nine cans into a 12-pack.

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G R O U P - S A L E S

LF Pavillion is a group sales section – while your hypothesis that the Angels are doing the scalpage absolutely holds water, another explanation could be a scalper posed as a a church group and nabbed blocks of 25-100 seats.

Perhaps the Angels’ group sales packages are a little off and these were seats that were saved for groups, went unsold and are being offered this way instead of being held for day-of-game sales.

Sadly, the courts have ruled in favor of clubs doing this, as the CUBS own their OWN scalping agency!!!!!

by Rev Halofan on Jul 25, 2008 1:06 PM PDT   0 recs

I checked that

I actually thought of that before and found that the Angels only sold tickets to this game in the Upper View and Upper View All Star sections (and they had to buy another game to get this game)... http://losangeles.angels.mlb.com/ana/ticketing/group_tickets.jsp

by HungryHunter on Jul 25, 2008 1:13 PM PDT to parent up   0 recs

Given Arte's attitude about scalping though, I'm not sure he'd be okay with that.

In fact, I’d wonder what Arte would make of this if he heard about it. He might very well open an investigation into it, possibly canceling the tickets if the scalper had defrauded the Angels by posing as a church or something.

Then again, if it’s a legal practice being performed by the Angels organization, he might be okay with it, though I still wonder about it. Arte’s line has always been family atmosphere and fair prices; from a discussion I had with him during spring training this year, I’m not sure he’d be cool with this.

~Till the Halo burns out...

by Zu Long on Jul 25, 2008 1:21 PM PDT to parent up   0 recs

Group leaders are warned...

that they cannot scalp the tickets. I have led a couple of groups from my office there and it is clearly written in your information booklet and contract. However, it is a great way to make some cash if you are a dastardly person and you’ll just get a slap on the wrist from the Angels, if caught.

by Downing Rules on Jul 25, 2008 3:51 PM PDT to parent up   0 recs

Huh.

That’s interesting.

~Till the Halo burns out...

by Zu Long on Jul 25, 2008 5:59 PM PDT to parent up   0 recs

Mini Plans

Does anyone know if they sold mini plans in the left field pavillion?

by HungryHunter on Jul 25, 2008 1:15 PM PDT   0 recs

Damn

You’re back again to bitch and complain about something that nobody here can do a thing about.

Didn’t you learn your lesson when you bitched and complained about the yard sale???

There is no law against scalping in California.

I know that when my friend has posted seats on stubhub, she pretty much had to go thru hoops to do it—they wanted name and address, phone number, email, etc… and they wanted the tickets in THEIR hands before the tickets would show up on the site.

Because stubhub is MLB’s “official” reseller of tickets, I can see them being allowed to send the tickets by “instant” email, as the tickets are there in the office.

But then again, nobody here has the “inside scoop” on why this is allowed, so why don’t you pick up a phone, dial the Angels front office, and ask them????

by pattimelt on Jul 25, 2008 1:41 PM PDT   0 recs

Excuse me?

I’ve been posting on this site for a long time, several years actually. If you want to resort to personal attacks, please go ahead and do it somewhere else.

I never said what they were doing was illegal.

Are you trying to add to the discussion or just take grind a personal axe?

by HungryHunter on Jul 25, 2008 1:45 PM PDT to parent up   0 recs

::grabs popcorn and waits::

Mike Scioscia: He provides to unlike method of your team member.

by howiestheman on Jul 25, 2008 2:49 PM PDT to parent up   0 recs

I'm taking bets....

3:1 in favor of pattimelt!

Angels fan since '67

by red floyd on Jul 25, 2008 3:21 PM PDT to parent up   0 recs

She didn't understand

She didn’t understand what the post was saying and flew off the handle. I’ll be gracious about it and not insult her.

by HungryHunter on Jul 26, 2008 8:28 AM PDT to parent up   0 recs

I understand that you're still an asshole.

And I understand what the post is about.. I do have reading comprehension skills.

Let me put this in SIMPLER terms:

The Angels can do what they want with THEIR tickets. If you don’t like it, either buy season seats, so you can have tickets to every game, or stay home and watch the game on tv. For that matter, tell us you’re so pissed off about how the Angels are selling tickets that you’ll boycott the team, and not only will I have a better chance of scoring tickets when the Angels are in the playoffs this year, but I won’t have to deal with you or anyone that thinks like you at the stadium, either.

Nobody here on this blog can tell Arte or the Angels front office what they can or can not do with their own tickets. If they want to sell them thru the box office, fine. If they want to put them on the open market and scalp them, that’s fine, too. If you want to complain, call the front office and complain somewhere it will do you some good. It may not CHANGE anything, but at least you can vent to someone who actually has the power to make any of those changes.

by pattimelt on Jul 26, 2008 10:39 AM PDT to parent up   0 recs

No shit and I'm not being gracious with this bitch anymore.

I’m an asshole? Look in the mirror lady.

I understand that the Angels can do whatever they want with their tickets. This is a matter of publicly calling out the Angels for scalping their tickets.

They could aslo revoke the tickets of all season ticket holders and sell all their tickets on the secondary market. This isn’t about what they are legally allowed to do, it is about shining a light on a new practice that they are engaged in.

When the media found out that the Cubs were doing this, it was HUGE deal and a major scandal.

And no, I don’t have to just complain to the front office about this practice, it is just as important, if not moreso, to inform my fellow fans about it.

Now, go back to your little hole in the ground and stop trolling my posts.

by HungryHunter on Jul 26, 2008 10:50 AM PDT to parent up   0 recs

You ain't seen BITCH yet, asshole.

HOW do you KNOW it’s the ANGELS that are doing this?? Just because the offerings all look the same doesn’t mean that the ANGELS put them up for sale.

Bottom line? YOU DON’T KNOW FOR SURE.

IF the buyers of all those tickets purchased them to scalp them, and they took the tickets to the stub hub offices, stub hub CAN put them up with instant delivery, because their system is now integrated with ticketmaster itself. It doesn’t have to be the ANGELS scalping their own tickets.

GROUP SALES are also done in the LF PAVILLION. But then you only read what you found at that link. Group sales starts in FEBRUARY, and if you know early enough that you want Yankee tickets for that Friday game in August, you can order them early and get the LF Pavillion seats. I know, because a group of us from work is going to that game and we do have LF PAVILLION seats that we purchased as a group in FEBRUARY!!!!!! And this is a group of 50 of us, so it’s not a group of 10 or whatever.

You want to insist that the ANGELS are scalping their tickets?? Prove it to me and the rest of the Angels fans: Go buy a couple sets of tickets, and COMPARE them to see if the order numbers match (this is the same as the season seat holder account number on regular tickets!).

Otherwise, call the Angels and complain. Because unless you can prove it to me, you’re talking out your asshole.

by pattimelt on Jul 26, 2008 11:08 AM PDT to parent up   0 recs

I didn't insist on shit

I’ve seen your picture, so yes I have seen a bitch.

I asked the question and invited responses as to whether this was the Angels doing it or not. If I am wrong then so be it. However, Stubhub does not enable instant delivery just because they have the tickets in the office…they are only enabled for season ticket holders (and possibly mini plan holders and groups).

The bottom line is that I said “Is there another explanation for this or is it indeed obvious that the Angels are scalping their own tickets without putting them on the primary market?”

If you bought group tickets to that game, well, thanks for clarifying…thats exactly what I was looking for in the original post. All the information I had was that they were only selling groups to that game in View Box and View All Star. But then again, you work for Disney (who you probably think can do no wrong too), so there might be a special deal.

The main point of the post was to explore whether the Angels were doing this…its called a discussion. But apparently you’ve been looking for a chance to bitch me out since the yard sale several months ago and found it here. So once again, stop trolling my posts.

by HungryHunter on Jul 26, 2008 11:27 AM PDT to parent up   0 recs

I'm looking at a group sales brochure right now

According to the group sales brochure, which was sent to me in December, they only sell that Friday Yankees game in View All Star and Upper View. In addition, for the other games non-Grand Slam games, they only sell those group seats in the LF Pavillion those seats are only in Section 257 (non of the seats in question are in 257).

by HungryHunter on Jul 26, 2008 11:36 AM PDT to parent up   0 recs

Blue smoke?

Don't call me Desmond

by highlandhalo on Jul 26, 2008 4:15 PM PDT to parent up   0 recs

How can you troll

and bake pies at the same time?

Oh, you must have a computer in the kitchen!

Im joking, I just wanted to fan the flames, I love women, I think every man should own one.

Im joking again, dont look at me like that. I love you too much for you to be mad at me.

I brought sexy back, but they only gave me store credit....

by PhiSlamma on Jul 27, 2008 7:48 AM PDT to parent up   0 recs

Nobody was "trolling" your posts dude

You made a semi-controversial post and you have to accept that some people are going to comment on it. As for all the personal insults flying about, it’s my personal opinion that both of you are being a bit juvenile.

As a secondary matter, my son sometimes reads this blog with me and he doesn’t need to see grown-up people calling each other “bitch/asshole”. Grow up.

Don't call me Desmond

by highlandhalo on Jul 26, 2008 4:09 PM PDT to parent up   0 recs

I agree

I shouldn’t have sunk to her level. She obviously has an axe to grind with me and waiting for an opportunity.

by HungryHunter on Jul 26, 2008 7:27 PM PDT to parent up   0 recs

Not trying to take the high ground

After all, I’ve been known to serve up F-bombs like Roger Federer in game threads. I just don’t like seeing people hate on each other on my favourite site in the world.

Cool reply Hunter.

Don't call me Desmond

by highlandhalo on Jul 27, 2008 8:21 AM PDT to parent up   0 recs

Did you tell your son the story about the

gentleman in the red sox cap you spoke with at the train station? There’s a lot of growing up to do around here.

since 1961

by Chompo on Jul 27, 2008 1:28 PM PDT to parent up   0 recs

He's my son

I’ll tell him what stories I want to. Stay out of my fucking business chompo.

Don't call me Desmond

by highlandhalo on Jul 27, 2008 5:56 PM PDT to parent up   0 recs

I was just curious,

with regards to your request about what you would like people to refrain from saying.

You celebrate the “F” word on this site but would like others to beware of their choice of words. I thought it a bit hypocritical.

My post was meant to be rhetorical, food for thought for everyone on this site. Anytime you post on the Internet it becomes everyone’s “business.” This was not one dad telling another dad what to do.

since 1961

by Chompo on Jul 28, 2008 8:24 AM PDT to parent up   0 recs

In regards to the above

You are right, it did sound hypocritical from me, and for that I apologise. I was very tired after a 12-hour journey up north and the last thing I needed to see was a snarky post calling me out as a hypocrite, whether you were right or wrong. And I just said you were right in that instance.

But let’s get 2 things straight:
1) I don’t celebrate the use of the F-word on this site. I use it very infrequently and usually in situations where most others would as well. I also screen my son from those posts where it often appears, such as in game threads.
2) You need to be careful when you’re making suggestions about another guy’s parenting skills. If, as you say, once someone makes a post on the internet, it becomes everyone’s “business”, then be prepared for that guy whose parenting skills was called out to everyone to want to rip “someone’s” head off and shove it up his ass.

Agreed? You wouldn’t like it if I did it to you. Right, Dad?

Hope you accept my apology and we can move on from this.

Don't call me Desmond

by highlandhalo on Jul 28, 2008 2:04 PM PDT to parent up   0 recs

Snot Award for 2008 goes to ...

Chompo!

Well done pal. Now FO

Don't call me Desmond

by highlandhalo on Jul 27, 2008 5:57 PM PDT to parent up   0 recs

Rereading

Do you even know what is being discussed?

by HungryHunter on Jul 25, 2008 1:46 PM PDT to parent up   0 recs

Actually, California DOES have a law against scalping.

But the law states that scalping tickets is illegal unless the scalper as the written permission of the venue owner or operator. This is the only reason why no laws are broken when/if people resell Angel tickets through systems the Angels endorse.

Francisco Rodriguez: 188 career saves. 2 career Panthers, tied with Hector Carrasco.

by Stirrups on Jul 25, 2008 3:42 PM PDT to parent up   0 recs

I don't think so

I’m almost 100% that law (do you have a statute cite, by the way?) only applies to selling at the venue – hence, the need for the venue’s approval. But there is absolutely no restriction on selling via eBay, or on Craigslist, or anywhere off site. Some cities have ordinances prohibiting selling within X feet of the venue, but simply reselling tickets is perfectly legal in California.

by jjackflash on Jul 25, 2008 3:52 PM PDT to parent up   0 recs

Yes. Add that wording: "on the grounds".

The basic thrust remains {Cal. Penal Code ยง 346}. CA does have a law against scalping.

Francisco Rodriguez: 188 career saves. 2 career Panthers, tied with Hector Carrasco.

by Stirrups on Jul 25, 2008 3:57 PM PDT to parent up   0 recs

Anaheim

I’m pretty sure, is one of the cities that extends that prohibition to X feet (maybe 500) from the venue, although anyone who’s ever driven into the stadium and has seen people selling tickets within 50 feet of the stadium entrance – and within 50 feet of a cop – knows that it’s not really enforced.

by jjackflash on Jul 25, 2008 4:00 PM PDT to parent up   0 recs

I'm Right

Cal. Pen. Code section 346: “Any person who, without the written permission of the owner or operator of the property on which an entertainment event is to be held or is being held, sells a ticket of admission to the entertainment event, which was obtained for the purpose of resale, at any price which is in excess of the price that is printed or endorsed upon the ticket, while on the grounds of or in the stadium, arena, theater, or other place where an event for which admission tickets are sold is to be held or is being held, is guilty of a misdemeanor.”

by jjackflash on Jul 25, 2008 3:58 PM PDT to parent up   0 recs

whatever happened to using ticketmaster?

i pledge alliegance... to mike Scioscia
and the angels way of baseball
and to each pennant and ring we are sure to win.
one fanatic, under the halo, unwavered
with in n out and world series rings for all

by halofan4life on Jul 25, 2008 1:43 PM PDT   0 recs

Last year

MLB had it’s own ticket exchange. I guess they decided to drop that and just partner with Stub Hub this year.

I swear, if one more person tells me to "work smarter, not harder"...

by Rally Manatee on Jul 25, 2008 2:57 PM PDT to parent up   0 recs

And it sucks.

It costs and extra $15 for that-day tickets (pick up at will-call).
TicketExchange just had the usual tickemaster fees.

Angels fan since '67

by red floyd on Jul 25, 2008 3:22 PM PDT to parent up   0 recs

And thus

I’ve attended fewer games this year, and they’ve made less money off me.

by jjackflash on Jul 25, 2008 3:53 PM PDT to parent up   0 recs

Instant delivery

is only $5, same as under the ticketexchange.

by HungryHunter on Jul 25, 2008 4:01 PM PDT to parent up   0 recs

New

I hadn’t seen the instant delivery option before (believe me, I’ve checked); I think you indicate below that it’s new. But for TE, it was only $2.50. But that may have been per ticket.

by jjackflash on Jul 25, 2008 4:03 PM PDT to parent up   0 recs

TE was $1.95 per ticket

I just went over some of my old orders…$1.95 per ticket was the ticketexchange fee. So its slightly higher you buy one or two tickets, but cheaper if you buy 3 or more tickets.

by HungryHunter on Jul 25, 2008 4:24 PM PDT to parent up   0 recs

Are you talking Stub Hub?

StubHub charges $15 FIFTEEN bucks to pick up your tickets day of game. I checked that about a month ago…but, you might be talking about Ticketmaster…

by Downing Rules on Jul 25, 2008 4:08 PM PDT to parent up   0 recs

Normally, only season ticket holders can list their tickets for instant delivery.

Wrong. Anybody can do instant delivery, you have to turn the tickets over to Stubhub…what a gamble—what if they don’t sell? It is such a dumb system. Ridiculous, actually.

by Downing Rules on Jul 25, 2008 3:54 PM PDT   0 recs

Not Wrong

The only people that can do instant delivery are season ticket holders. If you dropoff your tickets at Stubhub, you can do will call pickup.

Instant delivery just started being an option yesterday (they finally got the system up and running).

by HungryHunter on Jul 25, 2008 4:00 PM PDT to parent up   0 recs

Its a Stubhub thing

Basically, Stubhub had to integrate their system with the Angels in order to get the instant edelivery thing going. They’ve been promising season ticket holders that the system woudl be up and running by late May and they finally got it operation yesterday (July 24th).

by HungryHunter on Jul 25, 2008 4:26 PM PDT to parent up   0 recs

I AM TRYING TO DO THE MATH HERE

It appears that IF the Angels are the ones scalping their own tickets that they are only doing it in the LF Pavillion and only for Yankees games and their profit seems to be confined to the stubhub service fees.

IS THAT RIGHT?

by Rev Halofan on Jul 26, 2008 12:18 PM PDT   0 recs

If

If it is the Angels doing it, I would think it would be a test (especially since the system just got rolling)....not saying that is limited to the LF Pavillion either but that is the most easily identifiable place since there are very few season ticket holders there (due to team polilcies).

Their profit above selling through the Box Office would be any premium they have on these seats. Plus they get a percentage of the Angels ticket service fees from stubhub (as do all the other teams).

The LF Pavillion seats sell for $17 from the BO for the tier 2 games. The cheapest they are on Stubhub for is $40 (ranging up to $80). They would be more than doubling their revenue on these seats in particular. In addition, they get a cut of the service fees on any Angels tickets that sell.

by HungryHunter on Jul 26, 2008 12:35 PM PDT to parent up   0 recs

o u c h

...and the ruling in the cubs case a few years back is pretty airtight, as i recall. So instead of making $17 at the box office – as they promise LF seats to be day-of-game sales for families – they take in $40 plus a chunk of the stubhub fee.

At least we will all know that those Yankee fans are being gouged.

by Rev Halofan on Jul 26, 2008 12:54 PM PDT to parent up   0 recs

Props to HungryHunter for "possibly" exposing a scam

I do believe it is possibly because there are a lot of lower-level c—nts in that sales office at 2000 Gene Autry Way who will do ANYTHING to get a promotion over their rival sales hacks.

It’s an interesting angle … I just don’t like all the bitching/infighting about this.

Don't call me Desmond

by highlandhalo on Jul 26, 2008 4:13 PM PDT to parent up   0 recs

I don't mind them doing it.

I do mind the hypocrisy. They are constantly talking about how they are the best value in baseball and how they have some of the lowest ticket prices in the league. If the theory is correct, they have been shuttling tickets out the backdoor for sale on the secondary market.

I’m also concerned that they will move to do this across more games throughout the year…it starts with the Yankees and if it works they move it to other “premium” games and then to Friday / Saturday games.

If they want to sell tickets on Stubhub, they should openly tell people what they are doing.

by HungryHunter on Jul 26, 2008 7:33 PM PDT to parent up   0 recs

My suggestion would be to contact one of the reporters ...

at the Ragister or the times. Shoot Mike DiGiovanna or Bill Plunkett a line—or better yet, Bill Shaikin of the Times, and tell him your theory. If you feel that strongly about it, perhaps you’re right that the story should be made available to the general public.

Guaranteed that Shaikin would look into it and will get an answer from the club. He’s the most “investigative” reporter of the above bunch and is well connected. If Shaikin writes a story, then perhaps you have truly exposed an example of hypocrisy by the club.

I don’t really sit on either side of the fence on this because I’m in Scotland and I can’t go to games. But if I was back home I think I’d be a little bit pissed off about this.

On the other hand, I agree with patti’s contention that the club can do whatever they want with their tickets, even if it is a bit underhanded. I also agree with the Rev … if it’s not an ongoing practice, and if for example it’s only the Yankees fans that are getting the shaft, so what?

Don't call me Desmond

by highlandhalo on Jul 27, 2008 8:27 AM PDT to parent up   0 recs

Don't forget that Halo Heavens very own K-train is a Ragister guy...

I’m sure he’d love to break this one…

Show 'em your a panther... Show 'em what you can do....

by stuck in Romania on Jul 27, 2008 12:33 PM PDT to parent up   0 recs

Suggesting that Hunter gives it to Shaikin

K-train’s probably just some shite intern

Don't call me Desmond

by highlandhalo on Jul 27, 2008 1:24 PM PDT to parent up   0 recs

a lot of shite interns have masters degrees in journalism… and the MSM wonders why the bloggers have no regard for the old crusty veterans…

by Rev Halofan on Jul 27, 2008 1:46 PM PDT to parent up   0 recs

Indeed

Still, the mainstream press have their uses and this might be one of them.

Don't call me Desmond

by highlandhalo on Jul 27, 2008 5:59 PM PDT to parent up   0 recs

BULLSHIT its a SLAP in the wrist!!!

One year I bought tickets online the best I could get was upper view, I sent a email requesting handicapped seats so I could take my grandpa. After I had my upper views in hand, ticketmaster said they had Diamond Club handicapped Ava. So I bought them now I had 4 tickets.
So I thought ok cost of the tickets+shipping{+Svc charge is what Ill sell the upper views for. A a guy in head to toe red halo gear asked me for tickets, hand the guy the tickets out come the hand cuffs Im read my rights and taken to a holding cell under the stadium. He was a under cover OC sheriff. I had to beg to have them not take my diamond club ticket and let me out to retrieve my grandpa who already went inside. They gave me a ticket that I had to show up to court, not just a fine, I had a court date and went b4 a judge and he said its a $2500 fine, or 7 days in jail. I told him I cant afford either. So the DA said he would negotiate , I sat in the DA office with a negotiator and got the fine down to $700 with payments and a ban from the stadium the rest of the year. Ya dont tell me slap on the wrist!!!!!!

by SFV88 on Jul 26, 2008 3:58 PM PDT   0 recs

Holy jeebus

Don't call me Desmond

by highlandhalo on Jul 26, 2008 4:11 PM PDT to parent up   0 recs

That's a damn horror story

You gotcherself some bad coppers that day, pal … sorry to hear that

Don't call me Desmond

by highlandhalo on Jul 26, 2008 4:16 PM PDT to parent up   0 recs

Sorry about your horror story...but you are dumb...

don’t sell tickets ON THE PROPERTY. Duh! Everybody knows that.

What I was talking about regarding a slap on the wrist, kind sir, is someone who buys group tickets and then sells them either on-line or OFF THE PROPERTY. Yes, they can find out whose tickets they are and then slap them on the wrist (what, call you and tell you “hey, you cannot buy group tickets from us anymore” that’s a slap on the wrist in my book). No bullshit here, man. I’m speaking truth.

Your story is someone (you) trying to undercut the business of Angels ticket sales ON THEIR PROPERTY. Not smart. You got what you deserved (harsh as it is, you absolutely cannot sell on the property or near the stadium).

by Downing Rules on Jul 26, 2008 10:24 PM PDT to parent up   0 recs

Yeah but ...

Cmon, everybody does it. I don’t know if it’s still that way, but you used to see guys all the time in the parking lot and even right in front of the entrances exchanging ducats for cash.

I’ve only sold tickets a few times in front of the stadium when I was hard up for cash, but if questioned I was always prepared with the line: “Hey this guy is my buddy, and he owes me the dough for the tickets I bought him.”

Don't call me Desmond

by highlandhalo on Jul 27, 2008 8:33 AM PDT to parent up   0 recs

Mind you that obviously wouldn't have helped SFV88

The most galling thing about his story is that the undercover sheriff approached him to ask for tickets. That’s entrapment. Where was Admiral Ackbar when you needed him?!

Don't call me Desmond

by highlandhalo on Jul 27, 2008 8:37 AM PDT to parent up   0 recs

Same thing happened to me at Anaheim stadium, but it was for a rock concert.

I got “arrested” and sent to Angels jail, but they took my extra tickets I was trying to sell for face value only as evidence, and let me go to the concert. I had to go to court and was fined $300 plus the tickets which were worth $200.

by 44FAN on Jul 27, 2008 4:07 PM PDT to parent up   0 recs

What concert was that?

Hope it was worth it! ... Jeebus

Don't call me Desmond

by highlandhalo on Jul 27, 2008 6:00 PM PDT to parent up   0 recs

I guess it might have been worth it then

At least you saw a rock God. Still, pretty expensive night out! ... Did you ask Sir Paul for a refund? I’ve heard he can afford it.

Don't call me Desmond

by highlandhalo on Jul 28, 2008 6:41 AM PDT to parent up