#1 Angel from ESPN & Baseball Tonight
by Angel Aviator on Aug 17, 2008 5:28 PM PDT
34 comments
The fans have voted and the votes are in. The top 3 Angels according to the votes gathered by ESPN are as follows
#1 Nolan Ryan (#2 HH)
Nolan received 60% + of the votes
#2 GA (#5 HH) came in second
#3 Tim Salmon (#1 HH)
The wonderful smurf Tim Kurkjian voted Garret Anderson as the teams #1 Angel. He backed it up with the numbers.
#1 in games played, AB's, Runs Scored, Total hits, DBL's, RBI's
He also talked about how he has been a All-Star 3 times winning the MVP in one, and being part of the only World Series winning team that the organization has ever had.
Seems to me the nation voted for the player that brought exposure and notoriety to the club.
Whats Halo Heavens thought on this?
This Fan-Post is authored by an independent fan. Tell us what you think and how you feel.
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easy
Nolan Ryan was the best player to ever be ont he Angels but he was not the best Angel.
I would say GA for all the reasons stated above. Hes not in the same class as Ryan, obviously, but means more to this team. Ryan means a lot to more teams than the Angels
by ihearhowie2.0 on Aug 17, 2008 5:43 PM PDT reply actions 0 recs
Amen
preach to the choir mate, it’s GA all the way …
Don't call me Desmond
by highlandhalo on Aug 17, 2008 5:46 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
Tim Salmon
After all, he is “Mr. Angel”!!!
Write to the Angels front office. Get Tim Salmon's number 15 retired!
by KingF15h on Aug 17, 2008 7:14 PM PDT reply actions 0 recs
IMO
Tim Salmon= Angels Franchise Player
There is an "Angel in the outfield" and his name is GA! ps. he is lazy but not a bum GO HALOS!
by wallispdub1 on Aug 17, 2008 7:41 PM PDT reply actions 0 recs
Garret also has made the most outs as an Angel
Garret leads in counting stats, Salmon in rate stats.
That is why Salmon is the #1 Angel of all time.
Both were instrumental in the magical 2002 season and both played a role in the series itself, Salmon winning Game 2 for us and Garret Game 7.
Nolan Ryan put us on the map, gave us an identity, a foundation. He was the “Vlad” of the 1970s Angels.
A ring this year and a good 2009 season will likely be all Vlad needs to be in this conversation.
by Rev Halofan on Aug 17, 2008 7:58 PM PDT reply actions 0 recs
Yeah, except
Vlad strikes me as more of a franchise personality than Nolan Ryan—especially if he sticks around another five years until retirement.
Light Up That Halo!
by Clutch on Aug 17, 2008 9:08 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
Garret has better rate stats in
Batting Average, Doubles, and RBI/PA. He also has 1,900 more at-bats than Timmy and STILL hasn’t struck out as much.
Nod to Timmy for better HR, SLG, BB, and Runs scored/game rates, though.
We know where I stand on who is the Franchise guy, but I certainly see both sides. I just don’t think the choice is as clear-cut for Salmon as most Salmon-voters do.
by Caseys Kiss of Death on Aug 18, 2008 1:34 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
OBP, OPS, OPS+, Runs created, Win Shares,
and all the derivative stats like EQA, WARP, etc favor Salmon. Salmon was unequivocally the better player while on the field, the main problem is that he spent a lot more time OFF the field then Anderson has.
~Till the Halo burns out...
by Zu Long on Aug 18, 2008 1:44 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
Him being off the field so much means rather a lot.
OPS and OPS+ though are almost entirely representative of Garret’s career-long inability to walk. When it comes down to it, a person like me has a hard time having the determining factor in who the greatest Angel ever was be based on who walked more. The reason I didn’t list off OBP, OPS, and OPS+ (the last two being rather redundant considering they were contemporaries on the same team) was because they’re all derivatives of BB. I find it speaks quite a lot to Garret as an RBI machine, however, that his OPS and OPS+ were so significantly lower, and he still had a better rate of RBIs produced per plate appearance.
Again, like you said, health and longevity is a major issue. Salmon didn’t have either. And Garret has produced at a high level his entire career, while lasting for a long time. That means rather a lot to me.
But I’m still pissed at Scioscia for not finding just a few more at-bats for Salmon in ‘06. He was producing well enough to have earned them, that’s for sure.
by Caseys Kiss of Death on Aug 18, 2008 2:03 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
It's more than who walked more
Salmon had more power, and a batting average very nearly as high during those prime years. His career ISO (SLG-AVG) is still well above Andersons. It wasn’t just about walking more, Tim Salmon was simply better for 7 of the first 8 years of his career, right on a level with Vlad or Tex type production. He’d also be really good in ‘02 and ’03 Garret approached that level for 4 seasons: 00, 01, 02, and 03. Anderson’s RBI advantage comes mostly from his different approach (ie, not walking). Longevity and approach differences account for most of the differences in their stats, but Tim was a better player for a much greater number of years. Tim’s numbers also suffered due to the strike.
I also think you underrate walking a bit. This isn’t just a few more walks, it’s two and a half times as many walks, in less playing time. Walks still represents a run scoring opportunity every bit as much as a single.
I don’t really blame Scioscia for ‘06, though. He let Salmon play about as much as Salmon told him he could play. There were some interviews I read that season that indicated Salmon’s knees were on again/off again the whole year, and sometimes he just couldn’t play. I save my wrath for Cito Gaston, Gene Lamont, Joe Torre, and Mike Hargrove. Also Bill Bavasi.
~Till the Halo burns out...
by Zu Long on Aug 18, 2008 2:30 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
You two are going back and forth over offense, but what about the other 3 outs per inning?
Francisco Rodriguez: 193 career saves. 2 career Panthers, tied with Hector Carrasco.
by Stirrups on Aug 18, 2008 2:34 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
Defensively it's tough to say.
Garret still has the steady approach and lower error rate, but Tim Salmon had a much better arm in the day. Both guys started spending time at DH as they hit their 30s. Garret played Center for a few seasons, but wasn’t particularly good at it.
Once again, according to more advanced metrics, like FRAR and FRAA, Tim Salmon tended to be a better defender when healthy, but GA spent more time being healthy.
~Till the Halo burns out...
by Zu Long on Aug 18, 2008 2:47 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
I'm not under-rating walks
All I’m saying is, all other things considered, if it came down to who was absolutely, positively THE FRANCHISE PLAYER (the thing in question here), I wouldn’t choose one merely because he walked a lot more.
And I already know Salmon is a better hitter…it’s kind of obvious. All I was contesting is Rev saying that he was the all-around rate stat guy with the franchise, which seems kind of odd to say of a guy who drove in runs more often and hit for a higher average. I’m not saying he’s better at all. Though I would contest that the two hit for similar averages for their careers. I took a sampling of their averages from 1994 to 2000 for Tim, and 1997-2004 for Garret, and Tim was at .290 even, and Garret at what rounds up to .300 (.2996).
I concede that Tim was a better hitter (though the fact that Garret spent a decade being second only to Jeter in hits its a hell of a feat in itself), but again…the health and consistency really can’t be ignored.
by Caseys Kiss of Death on Aug 18, 2008 2:49 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
When he said, "rate" stats, I'm pretty sure he meant the things I talked about.
BA is pretty much the only one where GA is up, and even then, it’s not much of an advantage, .296 to .282. RBI, Hits, Doubles, Games are all pretty much counting stats. The stats I mentioned, OBP, OPS, RC, etc. are more like the “rate” stats he was referring to.
You are correct, health and consistency can’t be ignored. But when I think about the Angels and who was “the guy” on this team, Tim Salmon has 7 seasons where that was him. Ryan has 7, and GA has 3. Vlad is at 5 and counting. GA was and is consistently “good” but he was really only “great” for about 4 seasons.
Don’t think I buy too much into the whole OBP-walks brand of Sabre-ball though. I think GA’s plate approach has more merit than some of those guys are willing to admit, especially in RISP situations, and more than is shown in some of the stats they come up with. I should also admit that I’m not particularly unbiased in this conversation as Tim Salmon is about 40% of the reason I’m an Angels fan today.
~Till the Halo burns out...
by Zu Long on Aug 18, 2008 3:08 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
I'm glad I didn't use that "reason I'm an Angels fan" metric
otherwise I’d have to list J.T. Snow as the greatest franchise player. Though that’s not entirely accurate…Snow isn’t the reason I’m a fan, so much as he was just my first ‘favorite player.’
RBI and doubles are counting stats, yeah. But that’s why I only referred to them in the context of “x-per-at-bat.” Kind of cheating, I admit. I don’t like the “the guy” argument though. That’s not on Garret, so much as it is on management’s decision when to bring in players to support the franchise. Vlad was/is better than Salmon, and would have dwarfed him had he been brought in 6-7 years earlier. “The guy” speaks more to the supporting cast that they were willing to build around a player at a given time.
Also, don’t discount that difference in batting average. In the same number of at-bats, Salmon would have 150 fewer hits than Garret. Not monumental, but still big enough in itself. But at this point, that’s more just tit-for-tat rubbish than anything else in the scheme of this ‘debate.’
by Caseys Kiss of Death on Aug 18, 2008 3:16 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
Actually, Salmon was pretty comparable Vlad, during those first 8 years, and still owns the best offensive season in franchise history ('95) over Vlad
by a decent margin. It would have been interesting to see what kind of effect two of those guys on one team would have had on each other. Also, even had Vlad not shown up, Garret STILL would have come in second place at best 2004-2008.
Also, 150 hits over 8000 PA = not so much. I think the 700 more BBs and 300 more total bases kind of make up for it.
~Till the Halo burns out...
by Zu Long on Aug 18, 2008 4:14 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
Tim's OPS+ in his prime is heavily weighted on one year
with the rest of the time, his stats hovering around 120-135ish. Vlad, with the exception of this year, has been consistently at or over 140. He averaged a 149 OPS+ with the Angels heading into this year. Salmon TOPPED 149 only once.
by Caseys Kiss of Death on Aug 18, 2008 4:36 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
#1 Angel pair of glasses
forget Escobar’s goggles, donnelly’s ben franklins or Frankie’s kareem shades – BRIAN DOWNING’S WIRE FRAMES ARE TOPS IN MY BOOK!
by Rev Halofan on Aug 17, 2008 8:00 PM PDT reply actions 0 recs
I'm partial to Sherman Corbett
White trashin' the 909
by Red114 on Aug 18, 2008 12:08 AM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
When I was younger...
I used to get autographs after the games…. Sherman would be out there signing and instead of running away from everyone, he’d be looking for more people so he could sign more autographs… He woulda signed 10 times for everyone…
Show 'em your a panther... Show 'em what you can do....
by stuck in Romania on Aug 18, 2008 12:50 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
Timmy and Garrett
Are pretty equitable, with Garrett MAYBE nudging Timmy out just from those All-Star appearances and ASMVP. If he wasn’t so lazy, he’d easily beat Salmon out.
Light Up That Halo!
by Clutch on Aug 17, 2008 9:06 PM PDT reply actions 0 recs
GA
Fregosi #4
Angel Pitching, Angel Defense - get past that.
by vladtheimpaler on Aug 18, 2008 12:31 AM PDT reply actions 0 recs
Tim Salmon FTW
though I’m still partial to Shawn Wooten…
Chuck Finley is my homeboy
by HaloDutch on Aug 18, 2008 6:47 AM PDT reply actions 0 recs
Franchise Mustache
Chuck Finley is my homeboy
by HaloDutch on Aug 18, 2008 6:59 AM PDT reply actions 0 recs
GA= greatest Angel Hitter Ever
Ryan is God. No one can hold a candle to the EXPRESS!
by KendrickExperience on Aug 18, 2008 9:30 AM PDT reply actions 0 recs
But where is the real Titletown, USA? I am glad ESPN answers questions like these for us all.
Seattle I would like to thank you for sucking. It allows me to get back to my roots: Hating Fremont.
Kobe tell me how my ass tastes
by hauldog on Aug 18, 2008 10:26 AM PDT reply actions 0 recs
Angelo Encarnacion
Guy changed his name to play for the Angels!
If GA wasn't so lazy the Halos woulda won the 2008 WS by now.
by melvintoast on Aug 18, 2008 11:56 AM PDT reply actions 0 recs
Angel Moreno also gets some recognition.
If GA wasn't so lazy the Halos woulda won the 2008 WS by now.
by melvintoast on Aug 18, 2008 11:57 AM PDT reply actions 0 recs
I say let Salmon and GA settle it themselves
in a cage fight.
But seriously, I go for GA because he’s still playing. If we keep him another year, he may have passed Salmon in every category (although he’d have to have a powerful remainder of this season and all next season to catch 299 HR), and MAY MAY MAY have 2 rings to Salmon’s 1. Aside from HR’s, the only thing that Salmon has more of is charisma. I for one LOVE how enigmatic GA is.
I swear, if one more person tells me to "work smarter, not harder"...
by Rally Manatee on Aug 18, 2008 12:43 PM PDT reply actions 0 recs
I just love GA ... period
Don't call me Desmond
by highlandhalo on Aug 19, 2008 5:29 AM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
There isn't enough discussion about the person Salmon is
not just a player.
Salmon brought people to the park and with the tip of his hat, he put a smile on every budding Angel fan’s face.
I’ll always remember what he did for both the team and the community; people wouldn’t cheer for an entire season to have Garret come back and play in the outfield while he was injured, but the magic of the kingfish kept people hoping he would return for just one more AB…
by shiftyeyedgoat on Aug 18, 2008 4:08 PM PDT reply actions 0 recs
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