Smart-agressive vs. stupid-agressive
by sothball on Aug 28, 2008 11:05 AM PDT
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So, last night’s game, bottom of the 5th, one out, Quinlan at 2nd, Aybar at 1st. Napoli has already scored after BB from Casilla followed by 2 consecutive hits. Casilla is struggling to throw strikes…the count on GMJ is 3-0. Sean Rodriguez is on deck, and Teixeira in the hole. Oh yes, and the Angels have rallied from a 6-0 deficit and the score is now 6-5.
Stop. FREEZE FRAME. At this point, is there ANYONE that would give GMJ the green light? Is there anyone that would even give him the option to swing/not swing? At this point I would have expected Dino Ebel to all but lock GMJ’s bat in the dugout.
RE-START. GMJ (apparently given latitude to swing if he liked the pitch) grounds out weakly to 1st baseman…on a 3-0 pitch.
Does anyone understand this? Can anyone explain it?
Perhaps more than any other game, baseball is a game of constantly shifting percentages. In this case, you have a pitcher struggling to throw strikes versus a batter that has struggled all year (all career?), has played sparingly in the last 7 weeks, but has already managed to walk once in the game.
The percentages clearly say to me “TAKE A PITCH!!!”. The worst possible outcome is a called strike one…leaving potentially 1-2 more strikes for GMJ’s AB. Not much of a downside.
The percentages also tell me to do whatever is possible to get Teixeira an AB that inning.
This seems to be another example of the Angels crossing a line between smart-aggressive and stupid-aggressive…in THIS case not just crossing the line but triple-jumping way over for an Olympic gold medal. This gets added to other instances of stupid-aggressive;
1) Rallies killed by bad base-running over and over again (3 of the first 9 outs in Monday’s game on the base paths, one of which was Rivera thrown out at 2nd base on a lead-off hit to medium left field…in a game we lost 2-1).
2) How many times have you seen our team swing for a 3rd strike on a pitch wayyyyy out of the zone? I think we need Chuck Norris to count this high…and please don’t tell me this is balanced by the number of times they look at a called third strike right down the middle!
3) Our outfielders attempting to throw runners out at 3rd/home plate and therefore allowing tying/go-ahead run to advance to 2nd base.
I do not pretend to know what Scioscia/coaching staff says to the team on these occasions. Judging from the results, it does not appear they say much, because the same stupid-aggressive mistakes occur over and over and over.
Please don’t get me wrong. I LOVE aggressive play in sports. I love how the Angels routinely go from 1st to 3rd on base hits. But on too many occasions, they seem to be doing the football equivalent of throwing a bomb every 3rd or 4th play. Wouldn't it help the team to dial back the agressiveness ever so slightly? I don't expect perfection...just fewer stupid-agressive errors.
I ask for the collective wisdom of the Halo Heaven Nation to give opinions/explanations.I need to be enlightened.
Oh…to end on an optimistic/positive note, at least GMJ didn’t ground into a double play!!!
This Fan-Post is authored by an independent fan. Tell us what you think and how you feel.
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it could also have been GMJ trying to do too much... as always
the coach might’ve given him the option, or he could’ve ignored/missed the sign in hopes of doing something good for himself to warrant more playing time.
just another scenario…
Mike Scioscia: He provides to unlike method of your team member.
If GMJ's bat wasn't "impounded" for that one pitch...
..it should have been. There is no way in hell he should have even been allowed to choose between swing/no swing at that point of the game.
I really doubt he missed a sign, though I don’t know for sure. I have seen this same thing happen too many times – without apparent consequences – over the last few years. It just appears to fit a pattern of over or stupid-agressiveness.
i agree
i was just playing devil’s advocate.
there’s no reason for him to be swinging at a 3-0 pitch
Mike Scioscia: He provides to unlike method of your team member.
by howiestheman on Aug 28, 2008 12:26 PM PDT up reply actions
You are right I think...........
Case of the athlete trying to force the game instead of taking what is given. Its like watching the QB try to throw a pass that has no chance of being completed unless you count the opposing player catching it for the interception a completion (get ready NY Jet fans).
Had he hit the thing on a line or driven it deep I might be more inclined to say “he hit it hard just at someone”. That wasn’t the case though he rolled over on it.
Willie Mays Aikens is FREeeeeeeee
by Angel Aviator on Aug 28, 2008 12:32 PM PDT up reply actions
as he normally does
i think, in his mind, he thinks that because he had one or two good hits, that he should be able to do what he wants to do.
and in this case, it completely backfired
Mike Scioscia: He provides to unlike method of your team member.
by howiestheman on Aug 28, 2008 2:00 PM PDT up reply actions
I think this was GMJ actually being smart.
He knows that the angels have all but locked up the division. He knows that his ass is practically destined for the bench next season if not on another team. He realizes that the only way to get any playoff action is to get hot and score some runs. The perfect opportunity to prove to the angels brass he can hit. unfortunately for GMJ (and fortunately for us) he sucks, and his plan backfired and now there is a slim to none chance we see him in the playoffs.
Exceeding expectations is less a matter of luck than possession of certain assets.
by anaheim angels on Aug 28, 2008 5:40 PM PDT up reply actions
This post is really about more than one AB in one game.
The intent was to take a bigger picture look at the Angels overall offensive/defensive philosophy. It appears to me that in many situations, players are given too much discretion in deciding whether to swing/not swing, run/not run, hitting the cut-off versus throwing to a base. At times, they appear to exhibit what I consider to be bad fundamentals. They run or swing themselves out of rallies, or allow opponents rallies to continue.
I don’t know if GMagellanJ was given that latitude last night. My point was that good management should not have let him even THINK about being smart…for one pitch anyway.
ya i know what you mean.
i was screaming at GMJ too, and the boneheadeness of the players has gotten annoying. Im fine with a runner getting thrown out at third. Im fine with figgy getting picked off. What im not fine with is throwing to third and letting the tying runner get into scoring position. Agression on the basepaths is one thing, but over agressive throws are are not acceptable for me in certain situations
Exceeding expectations is less a matter of luck than possession of certain assets.
by anaheim angels on Aug 28, 2008 6:10 PM PDT up reply actions
I'm fine with it
Most of the mistakes are agressive mistakes, if you begin try to temper that agressiveness then you could have indecision which I believe is worse.
There is no way I want to take away the Angels agressiveness.
The proble I see is the passive-agressive selector switch is set a little too much toward agressive and not anough toward passive. I am only suggesting a radical change. Just an ever so slight switch back toward passive…like adjusting your thermostat from 72 to 70 degrees.
Understand what your saying
But these guys didn’t just start playing this way when they got to the Angels, they’ve played aggressively their whole lives, if they haven’t moved that “2 degrees” back by now from all the instruction they’ve received then I think if you asked them to it would cause indecision
Also as far as Matthews goes, at the begining of last year he was doing pretty good if my memory serves me correctly and his downward spiral coincided with his injuries. The guy has shown flashes but seems to be always dealing with injuries.
The "Agress-o-meter" is set by the team manager and coaches, not the players...
…I believe GMJ SHOULD have received a message from the manager/caoch in hand signals that said “If you even THINK of moving the bat toward the ball, you will never see another pitch in an Angel uniform”. Instead, the message he apparently received was “If you like it, SWING!”.
I posted below that there are some players that have “earned” more latitude, live Vlad. But GMJ? In those particular game circumstances? No way.
I just do not understand it.
As for GMJ, he had one good year, 2006 (the year before he signed w/Angels). Other than that his career stats are below mediocre. He hasn’t been in a downward spiral. He had a well-timed (for him) upward spiral. He has now returend to “normal”.
It was one at-bat man, let it go.
Scioscia has already turned the page.
by Downing Rules on Aug 29, 2008 2:05 PM PDT up reply actions
Smart agressive vs Stupid agressive
Smart means it worked and stupid means it didn’t. Second guessing is great when you already know what happened.
I hear so many people lament Vladdy swinging agressively on a first-pitch when he grounds out. I don’t hear those complaints when he drives a 440-foot first-pitch homerun….
The right thing is to take
It has been proven and shown that hitters hit at the same clip when the count is 3-0 if not better when the count is 3-1. Also been shown that the player hits about the same in 3-2 count as he does when the count is 3-0.
To let Gary Magellan Jr swing is not the right call there. Thats my opinion though. Its based on the fact that the guy is struggling to throw strikes.
I am sure that Sosh has given the veterans green light believing they will make the right decisions.
Looking at GMJ #’s when count is 3-0 he is:
2-3 (.667) and 101BB in 104PA with 3-0 count
3-1 Count
58-133 (.436) 150BB
Willie Mays Aikens is FREeeeeeeee
by Angel Aviator on Aug 28, 2008 12:24 PM PDT up reply actions
I disagree with your definition.
In Monday nights game, I was actually saying out loud to Rivera BEFORE he got to first base, “Just stay at first base!”…then he rounded first and got easily thrown out at 2nd base. He is probably the slowest runner on the team!
How many times have you seen just awful base running/throwing/batting, and then the player returns to the dugout to a…pat on the butt from Scioscia?? Or nothing at all?
Again, I do not know what the players are told. But when a player makes an especially stupid-agressive play, I would expect the coach/manager to say something along the lines of, “I appreciate your agressive attitude, but let’s use a little better judgement next time”. Or if he doesn/t want to single out any particular individual, then make a similar statement to the entire team. Again, judging from the results this just doesn’t happen…and the stupid-agressive seems to be contagious.
OK, Soth...
what would you have said if GMJ hit a homerun on that same 3-0 count?
Enough said.
by Downing Rules on Aug 28, 2008 12:36 PM PDT up reply actions
Still would have been stupid.
Someone as shitty as GMJ has no business swing 3-0 regardless of the outcome.
WOOOOOOOOWWWWWWW
i pledge alliegance... to mike Scioscia
and the angels way of baseball
and to each pennant and ring we are sure to win.
one fanatic, under the halo, unwavered
with in n out and world series rings for all
by halofan4life on Aug 28, 2008 3:42 PM PDT up reply actions
I would have said "Damn, lighting can strike twice..." and screamed myself silly.
As I wrote above, baseball is a game of constantly shifting percentages. In those particular game circumstances, there is no way he should be given the opportunity to swing. The bat should have been taken from his hand.
Incidentally, I agree with your screen name!
I like my screen name, too.
I saw a very fine lady wearing a Brian Downing jersey at the stadium last night. What an Angel she was. I gave her a high-five.
by Downing Rules on Aug 28, 2008 1:02 PM PDT up reply actions
Downing was just awesome.
Part of what I do not understand is this:
When a pitcher is being too aggressive (too many pitches in the zone) or not agressive enough (trying to nibble on the corners), Mike Butcher (or Bud Black when he was pitching coach) would be out at the mound or in the dugout telling giving the pitcher “advice”. And it did not/does not matter if it was a rookie or a veteran. Now I understand that this should happen more often with pitchers & catchers than with batters/fielders/base runners.
Unfortunately, I just never see any correction of stupid-agressive behavior of batters/fielders/base runners. It makes me wonder just how far a player can go before they get similar “advice”. I am sure there is a limit…it just seems to be self imposed rather than manager/coach imposed.
Unless we are sitting in the dugout or in Sciosc's office...
we will never hear such scolding. The Soth is a professional and he deals with things as such.
by Downing Rules on Aug 28, 2008 4:50 PM PDT up reply actions
I din't say scolding, just a friendly talking-to...
…like Butcher with Santana.
Let’s say you are correct…that Sosh does his correcting only behind the scenes (hard to believe since he personally went to the mound last night to give Loux some advice). When do you think a correction has occured to any instance of over-agressiveness?
Maybe it has happened. I would find it hard to believe, again given what I see on the field.
Either way man...it is not going to be visible for all to see.
he is a pro. Can I say it again and hear some AMENS from my fellow HH’ers? Mike Scioscia is a professional.
by Downing Rules on Aug 29, 2008 8:55 AM PDT up reply actions
If I ever catch up to you at a game, I will buy you a beer and raise a toast to Scioscia...
…and to Downing!
I agree he is a professional. I think he is the best manager in the game (I think my screen name gives that away).
That said, I see things on the field that run counter to sound fundamentals…and I just don’t understand it.
Last night’s game provided another prime example. Bottom of the 1st, Angels down 4-0. What do they need more than anything? BASE RUNNERS! So Figgy works a walk. GREAT!…then get’s thrown out attempting to steal 2B. If that isn’t stupid-agressive I don’t know what is (with what followed that inning, it probably cost a minimun of 2 runs).
I actually thought of you when I saw that CS by Figgs.
But, I chalked it up to again, your namesake, Sothball.
He’s going to be agressive, even if it is considered stupid by some. Think positively (I’m telling myself this, too)….more often than not, it has won our team ballgames.
by Downing Rules on Aug 29, 2008 9:44 AM PDT up reply actions
Hey Look
It is AMAZING FANPOST day at Halos Heaven … people are just posting the most interesting, detailed and thoughtful essays here today, this place rocks.
Well thanks for providing this forum!
The only problem is that I am having to work later than normal ’cause I am spending more time at HH. You were right…it is addictive!
smart-agressive = Vlad swinging at any pitch he likes
Stupid-agressive = GMJ
Go Angels!
Vlad gets a lot of latitude not only on swings, but also on base-running, and throwing to bases.
And I don’t think it is nearly always smart agressive.
Vlad is an exception to some fundamentals because he is a freak...
…and I mean that as a complement. He hits balls – and he hits them hard that most skilled ballplayers couldn’t possibly reach. I agree with giving Vlad a lot of latitude on swing selection and – because he has such a powerful throwing arm – overthrowing the cut-off.
On the other hand, his base running gets far too stupid-aggressive. He has stunted many rallies with plain awful base running.
i'd rather vlad
take a hack than GMJ. VLad has the right to swing at any 3-0 pitch because he’s vlad.
Vlad is paid to hack, not walk. Vlad is paid to drive in runs, not be a table setter. You take good with the bad with vlad and that means his hacking.
GMJ on the other hand hasn’t earned this right. If he’s got a 3-0 count, he needs to eithe be sure he is blasting a pitch or otherwise try getting a walk.
Go Angels!
Like some that mentioned before, GMJ is trying his damndest to impress Soth and the rest of the guys.
Trying to do it all
Hooters anyone?
by Chone's Chonies on Aug 28, 2008 9:40 PM PDT reply actions
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