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More Valuable:K-Rod or Tex?

It has been a question all year for our halos whether  Fransisco Rodriguez would be resigned. Now another dilemma is posed:  sign  saves  leader K-rod, or slugger Mark Teixeira? Frankie is on pace to blow past the major league record of saves in a single season and eventually the all-time record. Tex, on the other hand is a likely future hall-of-famer coming into the prime of his career. So, the nice thing would be for both of them to stay in Anaheim, but Rodriguez's fame has gone to his head a little, and Teixeira may be asking for 200+ million. Who do you think is the priority?

 

G AB R H 2B 3B HR RBI TB BB SO SB CS OBP SLG AVG
2008 113 419 73 120 29 0 22 86 215 73 76 1 0 .394 .513 .286
Career 860 3259 537 932 211 13 192 641 1745 418 677 12 3 .374 .535 .286

W L ERA G GS CG SHO SV SVO IP H R ER HR BB SO
2008 1 2 2.40 53 0 0 0 45 49 48.2 33 15 13 4 28 51
Career 22 16 2.38 385 0 0 0 191 221 432.0 284 124 114 34 192 561

Poll
Who should the Angels be more concerned with resigning?
Mark Teixeira
120 votes
Fransisco Rodriguez
9 votes

129 votes | Poll has closed

This Fan-Post is authored by an independent fan and may or may not be a reflection of human evolution, divine enlightenment or nine cans into a 12-pack.

0 recs | Comment 169 comments

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let's look at the Tex argument...

Vlad’s career line: .322/.389/.574, avg. 36 HRs 117 RBIs
Tex’s career line: .286/.374/.535, avg. 36 HRs 121 RBIs

basically, your getting the production of 2 Vlads, and one of them is entering his prime. how do you not re-sign him?

i’ve said it before – i know KRod is great, but $15MM/per is ridiculous for a guy who’ll play 70 innings a year (on the HIGH side).

spend a couple million more, and give it to the guy who’ll keep you in games/change games with his bat and glove, and he’ll do it 160 games per year.

Mike Scioscia: He provides to unlike method of your team member.

by howiestheman on Aug 9, 2008 11:09 PM PDT   0 recs

I could swear

we just did this topic a few days ago...

~Till the Halo burns out...

by Zu Long on Aug 9, 2008 11:34 PM PDT   0 recs

im not saying it will happen every game

but do you notice how many runs our new look lineup has scored in the past 3 games?

answer: enough to not even need frankie

before U-haul: closer on record breaking pace
with U-haul: (presumably) less save opportunities, hence less value in closer’s role

not saying frankie isnt valuable because we know thats not true, but if youre more willing to commit the money to the closer than the lineup changing slugger, youre doing so almost as a self-fulfilling prophecy. Choose closer over slugger, choose more tight games

by ihearhowie2.0 on Aug 9, 2008 11:42 PM PDT   0 recs

very good point...

just like my Yankee fan friend complains that too much $$ invested in A-Rod means less quality pitching.

by Downing Rules on Aug 9, 2008 11:47 PM PDT to parent up   0 recs

They have $87 million coming off the books this year.

Their choice not to try and trade for Santana was based off their overrated pitching prospects, not money.

~Till the Halo burns out...

by Zu Long on Aug 10, 2008 3:49 PM PDT to parent up   0 recs

Our offense took off prior to getting Tex.

K-Rod continued getting saves due to other pitchers blowing up (see 14-11 game). The other pitchers have done less blowing up, ergo, less saves.

~Till the Halo burns out...

by Zu Long on Aug 10, 2008 3:48 PM PDT to parent up   0 recs

This assumes he can continue being an elite-level reliever for at least five more season, probably more.

The decline in his skills (higher walk rate, dropping K rate) suggest that may not be a reliable possibility.

The Hunt for a Red October ...and please keep telling Clutch to chill!

by cardinalwraith on Aug 10, 2008 2:12 AM PDT to parent up   0 recs

"decline in his skills" is a bit overstated these days

Frankie changed his mechanics this year, battled through an injury, and basically introduced a new pitch. Without looking, I’d guess the 2nd half of his year has been a helluva lot more Frankie-like than his first. And either way, no one has been hitting him.

by mattwelch on Aug 10, 2008 8:19 AM PDT to parent up   0 recs

This argument isn't even close.

Tex will play almost every game during the season.

Frankie will appear in between sixty and seventy games per season, and pitch only one inning per appearance.

Let’s not forget that the closer’s role is an artificial creation of a pretty senseless statistic: the save. The sixth, seventh and eighth innings are more likely to be instrumental in deciding a game’s outcome. Back in the “good old days,” managers used to bring in their relief aces to put out fires and get the team out of jams. This makes sense at face value, right? Bring in your best relief pitcher when the game is most on the line.

Sure the current way works, but the old way was a much more efficient and effective use of relief talent.

The Hunt for a Red October ...and please keep telling Clutch to chill!

by cardinalwraith on Aug 10, 2008 2:17 AM PDT   0 recs

St. Louis Cardinals

27 Blown Saves this season. Doesn’t seem so meaningless when you cannot get one regularly.

by Rev Halofan on Aug 10, 2008 3:00 AM PDT to parent up   0 recs

You assume that all 27 of those blown saves have come during the ninth...

...which isn’t true. This is yet another lame part of the save rule. If a reliever comes into a game (at ANY point in the game, by the way) with his team leading by three runs or less (the much wanked-over save situation), and he allows the tying run to score, he is awarded a blown save. Doesn’t matter if it’s the sixth, seventh, eighth or ninth inning. Hell, it could be as earlier as the fourth or fifth. If you don’t believe me, ask anyone who has played fantasy baseball with Net Saves instead of Saves: middle relievers are just as eligible to be awarded a blown save as closers. And it blows.

So yeah, the Cards’ revolving closer situation with Isringhausen/Franklin/Isringhausen/Perez when TLR feels like it/Isringhausen again… has been pretty nightmarish. But you can’t pin all of the blown saves on their failures in the ninth. At least a few of them lay at the feet of their middle relievers.

I’m still right. The save is an arbitrary and meaningless statistic.

The Hunt for a Red October ...and please keep telling Clutch to chill!

by cardinalwraith on Aug 10, 2008 4:51 AM PDT to parent up   0 recs

agreed

arredondo is technically more effective if you go off other stats

only difference is frankie gets a status-pumping stat for doing his job while our other relievers do not.

do i need to point out that the cardinals just won a world series with a rookie closing games? not a future hall of famer?

once again, im not making it sound like frankie is not good at what he does, because he is. Im just saying that new closers arise every single year. This team has shown it has a hard time landing impact, game changing offense. Why let one go that is completely elevating this team to a new level so we can keep a closer who is having a harder time striking guys out and whos command comes and goes.

papelbon came out of nowhere just 2 years ago and is a dominant closer that won a world series. They werent paying him 15 million dollars. We were, though, paying frankie about half of that last season to give up a walk-off to Manny WHEN IT MATTERED ie i dont care about save records. all it was was an indicator that we had good pitching and bad hitting. If youre into meaningless records, by all means keep frankie over teixeira

by ihearhowie2.0 on Aug 10, 2008 8:36 AM PDT to parent up   0 recs

decided to look them up

and not just say arredondo had better stats in certain categories.

First, frankie has 48 innings to Jose’s 37, so I guess take the numbers for what you will if you think thats VERY significant

also, im not trying to say jose is better overall because frankies done it for a hell of a lot longer in bigger situations and i frankly dont believe hes better yet…all im getting at is that good relievers are not only out there, but a homegrown one is on our own roster.

The fact we’ve had both these guys appear through our own system and nobody close to mark teixeira’s total package on offense come through in that same time span is just my way of saying that the bat is clearly harder for the angels to come across and therefore more worthy of efforts to retain in my opinion

F=frankie, A=arredondo (duh)

ERA: 2.40(F), 0.97(A)
ER: 13 (F), 2(A)
Opponents Batting average: .300(F), .255(A)
WHIP: 1.25(F), 0.97(A)
K/9: (F)9.43, (A)7.54
BB/9: 5.18(F), 2.92(A)

So frankie strikes guys out more, which is a huge plus for your closer, but he counteracts it by walking more guys as well. Once again, people have extensive reports on frankie while arredondo is new and still getting figured out…so take it for what its worth

by ihearhowie2.0 on Aug 10, 2008 9:20 AM PDT to parent up   0 recs

youre right, my bad

i read OBA as opponents batting average. Its On Base Average

by ihearhowie2.0 on Aug 10, 2008 3:22 PM PDT to parent up   0 recs

Thank You

I have mentioned before how the save stat is very overrated many of times. Don’t get me wrong I believe you need a solid back of the bullpen, but not at the $$$ F-Rod is talking about. With the BS (blown save) being charged to a pitcher at any time of the game it is tough to really say that the 27 games the Cards have been credited with blowing they had a win all but sewn up. That is crazy talk.

As you mentioned before there is so stupid ways to get credit for a save (Wes Littleton http://www.baseball-reference.com/boxes/BAL/BAL200708221.shtml)

There is a reason that 7 National League teams out of the top 10 list are leading in blown saves. With the lack of DH and pitchers being taken out often there is more chance for error out of the pen.

Willie Mays Aikens is FREeeeeeeee

by Angel Aviator on Aug 10, 2008 2:38 PM PDT to parent up   0 recs

Oh yeah...

He got a save for that 30-3 football game, didn’t he.

Angels fan since '67

by red floyd on Aug 10, 2008 3:01 PM PDT to parent up   0 recs

Nail Bitter

Saving a 27 run lead because you pitched 3 innings. Thats just another reason the save is a stupid stat in that it can be manipulated so many different ways.

The official scorer shall credit a pitcher with a save when such pitcher meets all four of the following conditions:
(a) He is the finishing pitcher in a game won by his team;
(b) He is not the winning pitcher;
(c) He is credited with at least a third of an inning pitched; and
(d) He satisfies one of the following conditions:
(1) He enters the game with a lead of no more than three runs and pitches for at least one inning;
(2) He enters the game, regardless of the count, with the potential tying run either on base, or at bat or on deck (that is, the potential tying run is either already on base or is one of the first two batters he faces); or
(3) He pitches for at least three innings.

Willie Mays Aikens is FREeeeeeeee

by Angel Aviator on Aug 10, 2008 3:47 PM PDT to parent up   0 recs

NO Save

He got the win today!

Whats your point?

Was harder then hell for the club to beat anyone by 3 or more for most of the season. As I said before saving a game is something that is manipulated and not always a true testament to the reason the club won.

Willie Mays Aikens is FREeeeeeeee

by Angel Aviator on Aug 10, 2008 3:55 PM PDT to parent up   0 recs

When did I speak of his current season or F-Rod?

I was speaking about the job of a closer in general. Speaking of merit what is yours? Is it just stats and a calculator? Is there any experience Doc?

Willie Mays Aikens is FREeeeeeeee

by Angel Aviator on Aug 10, 2008 5:40 PM PDT to parent up   0 recs

Just the power of observation, an appreciation for details and a knack for being right.

Played little league, a bit in high school, wasn’t all that good. Plenty of experience in watching baseball and predicting outcomes though. Joe Morgan’s all the proof you need that experience playing the game =/= to knowing what you’re talking about.

As far as when you mentioned K-Rod, I believe this:

Don’t get me wrong I believe you need a solid back of the bullpen, but not at the $$$ F-Rod is talking about.

Was you.

~Till the Halo burns out...

by Zu Long on Aug 10, 2008 5:50 PM PDT to parent up   0 recs

Stand by that

Thanks you for the reply back and honesty about your merit in the game.

My point on the solid back of pen is I would not be willing to shell out 15+ mill for a CL. I would look to use it in other ways. I don’t buy into that kind of money being used on a guy that will pitch maybe 70 inn. I believe that there is someone there that can be that solid back of the pen for you right now in Arredondo.

Willie Mays Aikens is FREeeeeeeee

by Angel Aviator on Aug 10, 2008 6:17 PM PDT to parent up   0 recs

By the way

was I right about the Doc part?

Willie Mays Aikens is FREeeeeeeee

by Angel Aviator on Aug 10, 2008 6:18 PM PDT to parent up   0 recs

Nope. ^_^

No doctorate. I am but a humble writer by trade and training.

As far as not paying a closer that much money, for me it’s a simple question of production. K-Rod delivers Arredondo may replace him, but with closer, the question of clutch comes into it. Rivera pitches better than K-Rod much of the time, yet K-Rod, at least this season, has been more clutch.

The other problem is who replaces Dondo in the 7th? Bulger looks good, but has yet to do anything in the majors.

~Till the Halo burns out...

by Zu Long on Aug 10, 2008 6:31 PM PDT to parent up   0 recs

Personally

I am not such a big believer in getting only 6 out of a starter. like to think this rotation can give you 6+. If not then they are chasing. As for filling that 7th there is a few guys if you go committee. By that I mean you use according to the situation. I believe you need to make sure you get Oliver signed for the next maybe 2 years. Not to mention you still have Speier for that 7th and Shields for the 8th.

Willie Mays Aikens is FREeeeeeeee

by Angel Aviator on Aug 10, 2008 6:45 PM PDT to parent up   0 recs

Speier has fallen hard this year.

Ideally, you get more than 6 out of a starter, but in most rotations you do that regularly with two guys, in ours there are three… but that still leaves 2/5ths of your games. Not to mention even our good starters have off games or occasionally don’t get through the 7th.

Oliver is 36 and given the prices that good lefty relievers can command, I’m not sure he sticks around. There are a lot more teams willing to shell out $5 million a year for two years than $15 million for 5 He may actually be a hotter commodity than Franky next season.

~Till the Halo burns out...

by Zu Long on Aug 10, 2008 6:57 PM PDT to parent up   0 recs

Friend

I am good friends with his agent and have golfed with Olly a few times. I know he likes it here in So Cal and that he likes the winning atmosphere as well. If he can get 5 for another 2yrs or maybe 3yrs at 9 the 3rd being option with a buyout he would stay.

Willie Mays Aikens is FREeeeeeeee

by Angel Aviator on Aug 10, 2008 7:32 PM PDT to parent up   0 recs

and ironically theyre a team that spent big on a closer

yet won a world series with a rookie closing

Also, yanks dont seem to be winning any world series lately with their giant contract Closer even with him arguably being the most dominant this year

Coredero working out really well for the reds too

and wagner blows many a save in NY, not to mention getting hurt

big money to your closer = enormous risk

by ihearhowie2.0 on Aug 10, 2008 9:29 AM PDT to parent up   0 recs

BIg money to anyone = enormous risk.

They also haven’t won and WS since signing Jeter, Giambi, and A-Rod to 200 million-ish contracts. Using your logic, Signing Teixeira would also be the kiss of death.

~Till the Halo burns out...

by Zu Long on Aug 10, 2008 3:53 PM PDT to parent up   0 recs

ya except my logic said closers, not hitters

a batters swing is not as fragile as a pitchers arm and delivery

by ihearhowie2.0 on Aug 10, 2008 5:07 PM PDT to parent up   0 recs

Based on what?

~Till the Halo burns out...

by Zu Long on Aug 10, 2008 5:18 PM PDT to parent up   0 recs

Your Kidding right?

Willie Mays Aikens is FREeeeeeeee

by Angel Aviator on Aug 10, 2008 5:42 PM PDT to parent up   0 recs

Nope.

Any studies proving you are more durable as a position player than as a pitcher? Hard evidence?

K-Rod has been significantly healthier than Howie Kendrick, Mike Napoli, Casey Kotchman, and Dallas McPherson over their respective careers.

~Till the Halo burns out...

by Zu Long on Aug 10, 2008 5:54 PM PDT to parent up   0 recs

HaHa

So you want to compare the defensive and offensive side of the game with someone who plays just one side of it. OK well since F-Rod has pitched a total of just over 430 inn in career which wouldn’t match say Lackeys total in 06 and 07 thats fine. Just hope you realize that is about 48 9inning games he has been involved in as a player.

Considering this point I would say that pitchers become injured more then players when you factor the amount of time they actually play. It is a fact that the overhand throwing is not a natural act, and therefore causes many injuries to the pitcher.

Willie Mays Aikens is FREeeeeeeee

by Angel Aviator on Aug 10, 2008 6:11 PM PDT to parent up   0 recs

No one said it was fair.

I asked for evidence that Franky is more likely to be injured than Teix. Still waiting.

~Till the Halo burns out...

by Zu Long on Aug 10, 2008 6:15 PM PDT to parent up   0 recs

Well

Either one could get hit crossing the street. You know as well as I do that there is a greater chance for career ending injury with a pitcher then with a position player. That is the reason you see more years on a contract for position players then you do a pitcher.

Willie Mays Aikens is FREeeeeeeee

by Angel Aviator on Aug 10, 2008 6:22 PM PDT to parent up   0 recs

A career-ending injury, maybe, but those remain infrequent and are getting more rare

as surgery techniques get better.

Just because teams chose not to do it doesn’t really make it a smarter strategy. And we aren’t talking about similar contract lengths anyway. We’re talking about 4-5 years vs 8-10 years. The point of my original post was that saying the Yankees aren’t doing anything while giving their closer big money isn’t a good argument. The Yankees are giving plenty of guys big money, not just their closer.

~Till the Halo burns out...

by Zu Long on Aug 10, 2008 6:43 PM PDT to parent up   0 recs

Pitching

They have none. They blew a big portion on that bust Pavano (BAD SIGN) They had to talk Pettitte into playing and there best guy is Moose. They are awful when it comes to starting pitching. That is the reason they have been unable to get deep into the playoffs like they once did with a young Pettitte and veteran Pitchers with time left on the arm.

Willie Mays Aikens is FREeeeeeeee

by Angel Aviator on Aug 10, 2008 6:55 PM PDT to parent up   0 recs

They have Joba as well., and their bullpen, outside of their encounter with us

has been pretty good. Wang has been injured this year as well.

Pavano was a bad signing, you are correct there, but the Yanks as we all know can absorb those. The larger problem was their unwillingness to trade overrated prospects Hughes and Kennedy for Johan Santana last season.

I’d agree with Pitching being > hitting though. Last time I checked, K-Rod is the one on the mound, and Teix is the one with the bat. ;-)

~Till the Halo burns out...

by Zu Long on Aug 10, 2008 7:00 PM PDT to parent up   0 recs

Quility SP

You have to be able to get to the later innings with the lead in order to make it matter as to who is closing. The Angels SP is heads and tails better then the Yankees even with Joba and Wang. Hell they were forced into the Joba SP role because of the lack of starting pitchers.

We agree that Lackey needs to be signed right? We also agree that they need to take care of Santana and Saunders as well right? They also need to make sure they take care of some of the other needs on offense. So with those thoughts something has to give. I am more then willing to give on the K-Rod situation and use some $$$ on the above mentioned along with Tex.

Willie Mays Aikens is FREeeeeeeee

by Angel Aviator on Aug 10, 2008 7:11 PM PDT to parent up   0 recs

Agreed.

IMO, Top priority this offseason, over Tex and K-Rod, has to be extending Lackey, and 2nd perhaps locking up Kendrick and Santana to contracts equivalent to those given to Longoria/Kazmir by the Rays. I’d really like to see Saunders repeat his success at avoiding linedrives for another season before we wrap him up. If he can do it great. If he can’t his K-Rate is probably too low to maintain his current effectiveness.

K-Rod and Tex are probably 3rd/4th.

~Till the Halo burns out...

by Zu Long on Aug 10, 2008 7:16 PM PDT to parent up   0 recs

Sign

Lackey and Kendrick and Santana and I would be happy. I am a solid believer in pitching wins. So thats my concern with the team. You might say F-Rod is a pitcher so whats the deal. Well, I am also a believer that its thwe starting pitching and then defense that will win. Timely hitting is also part of the equation. Just see that guy that start 30 games on the bump play a bigger part in a teams win% then a closer

Willie Mays Aikens is FREeeeeeeee

by Angel Aviator on Aug 10, 2008 7:23 PM PDT to parent up   0 recs

No, I'm with you there.

Honestly, if we win the WS this year, I’m half-inclined to say let Tex and Franky go, take our four picks, trade Aybar or Figgy for high-level pitching/OF prospects, call up Morales, Wood, and S-Rod and let ‘em play for a season. We’ve got a great chance of still competing with Texas/Oakland for the Division, plus we re-arm and get the kids a full-season to see where they’re at.

~Till the Halo burns out...

by Zu Long on Aug 10, 2008 7:28 PM PDT to parent up   0 recs

ya except thats never going to happen

big market, big payroll teams dont have firesales

it sounds to me like youd be better suited following the As since you seem to despise money, stars and love prospects

by ihearhowie2.0 on Aug 10, 2008 7:44 PM PDT to parent up   0 recs

i should have added a ;) there

because it sounded meaner in type than i intended it to sound

by ihearhowie2.0 on Aug 10, 2008 8:01 PM PDT to parent up   0 recs

S'okay.

I’ve made similar statements with similar intent. And I’ve definitely been guilty of occasionally forgetting the smileys. _

~Till the Halo burns out...

by Zu Long on Aug 10, 2008 8:05 PM PDT to parent up   0 recs

Fire sale? Nah.

This would be more like letting Percival, Washburn, Glaus, Bengie and Erstad go to make room for K-Rod, Santana, D-Mac, Kotch and Napoli/Mathis. Hopefully with even better results this time.

As prospects come up, you make room in the pros based on relative cost vs expected production. That’s Angels baseball.

~Till the Halo burns out...

by Zu Long on Aug 10, 2008 8:02 PM PDT to parent up   0 recs

i just have a feeling that...

there are a lot more guys in the league capable of being a closer than being a gold glove, power hitting, switch hitting, position player who seems to have no excess baggage.

"Life is a luminous halo, a semi-transparent envelope surrounding us from the beginning of consciousness to the end."

by NoDakHalo on Aug 11, 2008 7:46 PM PDT to parent up   0 recs

Who said K-Rod was the best closer in baseball?

I’m sure we can find a couple of power arms on waivers and fill the closer role in an instant. Is Derrick Turnbow out there? Is Armando Benitez still pitching? Maybe Robb Nen?

by BBFan1 on Aug 11, 2008 10:28 PM PDT to parent up   0 recs

a lot.

krod wouldn’t even be the best closer on this team. i could probably come up with ten to fifteen guys in the american league who could have done what he’s done this season given his situation. of course that is solely based on this year’s performance, but i’d assume a majority of those guys aren’t going to choke just because they are now the closer for the angels.

"Life is a luminous halo, a semi-transparent envelope surrounding us from the beginning of consciousness to the end."

by NoDakHalo on Aug 12, 2008 1:37 AM PDT to parent up   0 recs

ziegler
arredondo
nathan
downs
balfour
rivera
morrow
soria
jenks
papelbon
johnson
carlson
linebrink
bradford
giese

all of these guys have lower era’s than krod, with a minimum of 30 innings pitched. all but bradford have lower WHIPs than krod, while bradford’s is only .02 higher than frankie. i’m not a huge stat head, so i’m not gonna dig too deep into it. it just seems like he’s more replacable, especially since one of those guys is already on our team. some say ‘dondo is too young and inexperienced. i just have a feeling those people weren’t saying the same thing when krod was up and coming.

"Life is a luminous halo, a semi-transparent envelope surrounding us from the beginning of consciousness to the end."

by NoDakHalo on Aug 12, 2008 2:02 PM PDT to parent up   0 recs

ERA means little for a closer.

Clutch is everything. Rivera’s gone head to head with K-Rod and lost TWICE. LOSING games is just as big as blowing saves, and Rivera’s done it more than K-Rod. WXRL has two people over K-Rod, Nathan and Lidge. Over the last 4 years, K-Rod’s lead the league twice, and blows the field away if you add up the scores.

Comparing ERA and saying they could have done the same thing is just not true. The pressure in the 9th is different, and the goal is different. Your job is to 1. Preserve the win, and 2. Not lose the game. Everything else is window dressing for a closer. Right now there are two guys doing it better than K-Rod.

~Till the Halo burns out...

by Zu Long on Aug 12, 2008 10:12 PM PDT to parent up   0 recs

there is no definitive way to measure the stat...

i think a closer is more replaceable than most other positions. nothing i say is going to change krod lovers’ minds, and nothing they say will change my mind. that said, i love having krod as our closer, but this is all about making a choice, and if i had to make one, it’d be tex. i’m a fan of frankie, i like having him there, but i take a power hitting, gold glove, switch hitting first baseman over a solid closer. if we can affort both, i’ll take ‘em.

"Life is a luminous halo, a semi-transparent envelope surrounding us from the beginning of consciousness to the end."

by NoDakHalo on Aug 13, 2008 12:42 AM PDT to parent up   0 recs

you know you love my spelling.

"Life is a luminous halo, a semi-transparent envelope surrounding us from the beginning of consciousness to the end."

by NoDakHalo on Aug 13, 2008 12:43 AM PDT to parent up   0 recs

Closers seem replaceable right up until you find yourself in a position like the Tigers, Mets or Cardinals

right now, where no one in your bullpen, including the closer, seems capable of holding down a lead. Beane’s philosophy is that closers are easy to find. They’ve spent most of the season letting Huston Street close, with fairly disastrous results. Now they’ve handed it over to Ziegler. We’ll see if he lasts in the position.

Closers are easy to find. Guys who top the closer leader-board year-in and year-out are not.

~Till the Halo burns out...

by Zu Long on Aug 13, 2008 9:43 AM PDT to parent up   0 recs

Bad Example

Why is it you continue to use other teams with no other possible closer in the pen as an example?

The argument is the Angels have someone in the pen that many believe can close games. Fact that you can replace a closer with a cheaper option is very true and been done. Not to mention it would not be the first time it was done by the Angels.

Lee Smith was being paid good money back in 1995 and 96, but the club traded L Smith and handed over the closers role to less expensive Percival in 96 with only 3 career saves and 74 inn under his belt. Remember he was a catcher, and had only 3 years of minor league pitching under his belt. It would go full circle years later when the club wasn’t willing to pay Percival, and went with a cheaper option F-Rod.

As for Street he has been battling injury for most of the year and last. Having neuritis is no easy thing to get past, and he has tried. Iz and Wainwright have been on the DL at times this year, and lets be honest Franklin isn’t a closer and is lucky to still be playing. There was not much reason to think that Iz was done. He saved 32 of 34 last year. Thats why they thought Wainright was available to be a SP.

When you talk about the Tigers they have also battled the injury bug when you talk about the pen. Fernando Rodney has been on the DL most of the year and of course you have Joel Zumaya who suffered injury in the off season and came back in late June only to find himself back on it again. Then you have Jones who is also on the DL right now. So hard to use those guys as an example about replacement.

With the NY Mets I don’t think they ever claimed to have a replacement for Wagner, but they should be looking for one. He has had to be slowed down because of arm problems, and now is on the DL. There has been serious issues with the pen, but thats not because they let the closer walk believing they had a replacement.

If you look at George Sherrill he had a total of less then a 130 inn pitched entering the season and had 4 saves in 8 save opportunities. He currently has 31 out of 37. Guy had not been a closer at any time in his career as a big leaguer yet made the All Star team. We are talking about a guy that wasn’t even drafted out of college, bad scouting I would say . ’ )

None of these teams have taken the approach, or spoke about having someone to replace the current closer. They had closers going into the season, and believed they were fine with the back of the pen.

If you want to argue what happens when Dondo goes down thats fine. I would trust that Shields would fill in nicely until his return. The club will have to do something with the pen should they let Frankie walk. I think Oliver would be a no brainer then. I think he is already, but it would become imperative if Frankie wasn’t signed. Of course a lot of good things going on with Jepsen this year.

Willie Mays Aikens is FREeeeeeeee

by Angel Aviator on Aug 13, 2008 11:50 AM PDT to parent up   0 recs

Dondo could blow up next year.

We don’t know what will happen once the league gets a better look at him. I hope he dominates for the rest of his career. But there’s a reason we waited two full seasons before giving K-Rod the job, and only handed it to Percival when Lee got injured in ‘96. That reason is that one season means very little in a reliever—especially when it’s their first year and no one’s got scouting reports on them. Sherrill is a great example. Last year he was a great set-up man, 2.37 ERA, tiny WHIP. This year he’s exploded.

You quote 31-37 like that’s a good thing. That’s an 84% save rate. If we had Sherrill instead of K-Rod, he’d be at least 42 of 50, with god only knows how many losses, and that’s not even considering K-Rod’s higher leverage index. 4 less wins erases our lead over the D-Rays, costing us home field advantage since, as I believe you are aware, they currently have head-to-head over us.. Including blown tie games, it’s probably closer to 5-6 more games in the loss column, with more still to be added in the loss column. There’s a REASON why Sherrill is 61st in WXRL at 1.260. BTW, 4.594 (K-Rod) -1.260 = 3.3 wins. The difference between Kotchman and Teixeira in 2007 was only 2.3 wins according to WARP. And we haven’t even finished the season yet.

Letting K-Rod go gives us, at best, two sub-three ERA pitchers in the back of our bullpen. Maybe that will be enough, and maybe it won’t. But there IS a significant difference between the K-Rods and Sherrills of the world. Just like there is a difference between Shields and your typical set-up man. K-Rod’s been the best in baseball at what he does for the last four years. We MIGHT have the answer in Dondo, whose innings MIGHT be replaceable by Bulger or Loux or Jepson. Oliver might be solid for yet another season despite being on the wrong side of 35. Or they might not. The question is whether the “sure thing” is worth $15 million per year. With the current market, I say hell yes, especially when that gives us Dondo and Shields in the wingman seats.

Obviously, you don’t have to agree. I know the sabr-y stuff isn’t your cup of tea. ;-)

~Till the Halo burns out...

by Zu Long on Aug 13, 2008 5:43 PM PDT to parent up   0 recs

Need to be winning

in the 9th inning for any of this to really matter. I think

that the money is spent wiser when you give it to guys like

Lackey and some others.

Don’t know what Escobar’s deal is with the injury and Garland

is free to walk. So position guys need to be locked up as well.

I don’t buy into the if part of your debate about Sherrill. To

say that he would be like 42-50 with us is not true. That is

not the game of baseball. After all coming into the season he

was just 4 saves out of 8. With your theory or the theory of

SABR he would be 42-71. With your statement about him being

42-50 that throws the thing out of whack. Follow what I mean

Zu? Not so sure I am making myself clear with this or not.

Like I said in the previous post. If you want to say what

happens if Dondo blows up I hear ya. The reply to that would be

“the due theory”. F-Rod is due to blow up. Get where I am

coming from? Your reply might be then we use Dondo but then we

are doing it