Congratulations, Frankie
Let's be honest. The saves record isn't the most impressive record in baseball. It's incredibly team dependent, and as a measure of who is truly a great reliever, single season saves don't show you very much.
But, it's not every day you see records that have stood for more than 10 years get broken. This will not go down as Frankie's best season. This will not go down as the best relief season in history. Frankie has arguably not been the best reliever in baseball this year. But he is a very deserving holder of this record. Probably, when careers are accounted for, more deserving than Roger Maris was when he set the single season home run record.
Maris had three seasons with more than 30 home runs, and the only one with more than 40 was the record breaking year. He was a good hitter, a 127 career OPS+ is nothing to sneeze at. But without those 61 homers in a park that played easy for lefty sluggers, he's an afterthought in MLB history.
Frankie is still early in his career. He's only 26, but he has over 200 saves. He's been one of baseball's best relievers from the day he was called up into the big leagues. He's been one of baseball's best closers since he took over for Troy Percival four seasons ago. It's the type of record where you may pick out three or four guys who are deserving, and he's certainly in the picture.
There will be a lot of talk about Frankie this winter. My thoughts are fairly clear. I think that the closer role is somewhat overrated, but Frankie Rodriguez is unfairly maligned because of his status as a closer. Look around at how many relievers have been dominant over a similar stretch of time. Baseball is littered with reliever who looked great for a year or two at a time. Very few have done it year after year after year. You would be hard pressed to find four or five relievers who have been better than Frankie since he came into the league.
As for next year, you can argue all you want about opportunity costs. What position is the most valuable, and how important is it to go after a reliever when you have a first baseman and possibly another starter to sign. But the market, imperfect as it is, is the market, and Frankie will have a few teams willing to offer him what he wants. Personally, a 15MM per contract is simply a raise over what he's currently making (it's not 15MM over their current payroll), and they're financially successful enough to sign Teixeira and re-sign Frankie. He's on pace for another excellent season. He's added a pitch to his repertoire, and he's even starting to throw that change up against righthanders with success. And I have no doubt that he'll learn a splitter or cutter (or both) over the next five years. On top of that, he's an Angel lifer, and 10 more solid seasons makes him a nearly automatic hall of famer, and he'll go in with an Angels cap, something you currently can't find in the HOF.
So congratulations, Frankie. You've earned it. Now you can rest and get ready for the post-season.
This Fan-Post is authored by an independent fan. Tell us what you think and how you feel.
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Nice piece and a hearty congratulations to Frankie
Frankly speaking, I don’t care what happens this offseason. I’m more interested to see how he, and his Haloed cohorts, fare in the postseason this year. I say “kick some ass and let the chips fall as they may.”
by Big Easy Halofan on Sep 13, 2008 10:57 PM PDT reply actions
You're The Man Now, Frankie!
You HAVE earned it. #58
12th save converted after entering with a 3-run lead
21 save witth at least 2 strikeouts (leads MLB)
52nd save of exectly 3 outs (MLB record)
"i got 5ive on it"
Want to give credit were credit is due?
Then don’t go stopping on the accomplishments of a guy that was a MVP in back to back years. Won World Series titles in both the AL and NL. Right there makes him a little more then an after thought. Not so sure people even knew or remembered Bobby Thigpen. Now thats an after thought!
Roger Maris was a a solid big leaguer that captured the nation in his historic chase of the single season HR record. Not so sure F-Rod has managed that! As you said it is a direct by product of the teams success that affords F-Rod the opportunity to save games at such a record pace. Rodriguez has had 62 save opportunities this season, the second-highest total of all time, three behind Thigpen’s mark of 65 set in ‘90. Just three other relievers — John Smoltz in 2000 (55/59), Rod Beck in 1998 (51/58) and Randy Myers in 1993 (53/59) — have ever had enough opportunities to break Thigpen’s record.
I think your first paragraph was one the $$$$. With that said Congrats to you F-Rod. I tip my hat. But I also think F-Rod should be buying the team a gift just like those RB in the NFL that buy their O-Line gifts when they break the season rushing record, or single game rushing record.
Hitting HR’s has nothing to do with anyone else except the individual that hits them and the shmoo that serves them up.
By the way Maris hit 31 HR’s at home and 30 on the road.
Willie Mays Aikens is FREeeeeeeee
Maris
Was a rich man’s Brady Anderson who happened to play his prime years being the Robin to Mantle’s Batman.
Riddle me this
Why is it Maris was the "Bat"man in 1960 and 61 when he won back to back MVP awards.
With your analogy that would lessen Lou Gehrig accomplishments since he was with Ruth.
Willie Mays Aikens is FREeeeeeeee
by Angel Aviator on Sep 14, 2008 12:20 PM PDT up reply actions
Maris V Gehrig
Maris had a high peak in a short mountain range in one area of batting.
Gerig, well, he was Gehrig.
With you AA....
…What Maris did was in spite of the media, commissioner and some of his teammates (who were pulling for MM). This is a nice record* for Frankie, but his season will not go down as anything more than a afterthought. Saves is one of the most meaningless stats around. Would you take Frankie over someone who can pitch 4 outs or even TWO innings? There’s not even a consensus he should be signed for next year. Having said all that, I’m in the camp that is glad he is here and I hope he stays, but this “ain’t no great record.”
...on the road....
by Jack Kerouac on Sep 14, 2008 9:02 AM PDT up reply actions
I love you Frankie.........because you're an angel.........
http://bills.sportsbloggingnetwork.com/
by norcaliangelsfan on Sep 13, 2008 11:55 PM PDT reply actions
frankie, i hope you're here next year....
i gotta say it though…
the apartment building that roger maris grew up in is five blocks from my apartment. and my grandfather was best friends with roger’s older brother. so thats my claim to fame…its also all i got.
"Life is a luminous halo, a semi-transparent envelope surrounding us from the beginning of consciousness to the end."
I think this is being taken the wrong way
I’m not slagging Roger Maris. But he’s an example of how a good, but not all-time great player can catch lightning in a bottle and hold a single season record. His 1961 numbers were way out of line with what he did the rest of his career, and had he not held that record, he would be a relative unknown to a lot of people, despite having two MVPs. He was an excellent player, but not legendary without that record. He’s not a hall of famer. He basically had a great four season run with one very special season. And I’m not making a value judgment between the saves record and the home run record.
Frankie has a long way to go, but he’s on the trajectory to go down as one of the greatest relievers ever. Matt’s run the numbers before of how he compares to other greats at his age and at this point in his career. From a counting stat perspective, he could conceivably finish with around 600 saves if he stays healthy, maybe more. 30 years from now, if he still holds the record, it will belong to a guy was among a select group of greats at his position.
Your words
Doesn’t someone become legendary because of some sort of remarkable accomplishment? Not so sure that Bobby Thigpen would go down as a legend because of his saves record.
F-Rods projection would have to be based on his teams ability to win games, and not do it by more then 3 runs. Of course it could be a 4 runs like his 57 save I guess, but never the less it is based on team. His teammates have given him more chances to save a game than all but one pitcher in MLB history has had. Thigpen had 65 chances 57 saves. F-Rod 64 chances and got his 58. I am sure when it is done he will have had the most chances.
Willie Mays Aikens is FREeeeeeeee
by Angel Aviator on Sep 14, 2008 11:34 AM PDT up reply actions
Sort of like the how Hack Wilson got the RBI record because he had Woody English and Kiki Cuyler hitting in front of him.
Or how Ichiro managed to get all those ABs the year he got the hits record. Or Bonds got pitched around so many times when he broke the walks record. Or Cal Ripken never got taken out of a game before breaking the consecutive games record.
A certain amount of luck is required for any player to break any record. K-Rod still broke it, and did so while coming into extremely tough situations— significantly tougher, on average, than the ones Thigpen came in on in fact.
~Till the Halo burns out...
I have no idea what you're talking about.
Doesn’t someone become legendary because of some sort of remarkable accomplishment?
People become legendary for all sorts of reasons. Mickey Mantle is a legend not because of one remarkable accomplishment, but because of sustained dominance. Maris had essentially one great season, one very good season, and a bunch of above average seasons, but that’s not particularly rare in baseball history. Without the home run record, he’s a nice player that most baseball fans don’t know much about.
Not so sure that Bobby Thigpen would go down as a legend because of his saves record.
Who’s saying he would?
F-Rods projection would have to be based on his teams ability to win games, and not do it by more then 3 runs.
Actually, it’s based more on his ability to still pitch. Even crappy closers on bad teams get 30 saves in a season if they stay healthy. 400 more saves is about 33 per year for the next 12 years. I think 12 years is pushing it a little, but he’d still only be 38, and with good health, not exactly a given, I think 33 saves per year is EXTREMELY conservative. As an average, it’s almost too easy for him. It’s almost 15 saves per year below his current average. He’s a lock for 500 if his arm doesn’t fall off, and 600 is conceivable.
"Even crappy closers on bad teams get 30 saves in a season"
BINGO!!
Willie Mays Aikens is FREeeeeeeee
by Angel Aviator on Sep 16, 2008 1:03 AM PDT up reply actions
But it takes a really good closer, on a pretty good team, to break 50.
And it takes a historically great closer, on a consistently good team, to get 40 or more saves four years in a row. Frankie is one of two closers in history to do both of those. And at the end of the season, he’ll probably be the only closer in history to break 60 saves.
~Till the Halo burns out...
I gave a tip of the hat
There is no need to battle for F-Rod’s rights. You can stop defending your man anytime!
The job of a relief pitcher has changed dramatically over the years. The stat is almost new when you look at how long the game has been played and compare them to the other stats that have been tracked. Then there is the way that they are now used that makes the stat that much newer.
Again I congratulate F-Rod, but as the post before me said 30 saves can be done by a marginal closer.
Hoffman has saved 40 games 4 years in a row not once but twice.
Willie Mays Aikens is FREeeeeeeee
by Angel Aviator on Sep 16, 2008 9:53 AM PDT up reply actions
It can be done with a marginal closer
On a second division team. Maybe that is what people are missing. You can roll out nobodies to close for the Orioles or the A’s for example, but you can’t do it for a team contending for a pennant and ultimately a championship.
Marginal Closer
can catch lighting in a bottle and win a Championship though. Heck sometimes it has been done by those that were not veterans, but relief pitchers/closers trying to find there role.
I think the true marginal closer to win the WS would be Ugueth Urbina (11 yrs 237 saves). Here is a guy that bounced around for awhile before being acquired by the Marlins who traded Adrian Gonzalez (impact bat/left handed power) to acquire Urbina. Of course there is Byung-Hyun Kim not even marginal but a closer on a WS winner
As you said nobodies close for teams that are not good. Not a lot of games to be saved when your a closer for the O’s or A’s. Interesting stat is the Orioles have just as many blown saves as the Angels this year, and the A’s have 5 fewer then the Angels. Remember the stat is BS I think that stands for something other then Blown Save, but never the less Oakland has 5 fewer BS then the Angels. If Frankie converts all of those chances with Oakland he would have 45 saves right now.
Of course the Save% for the Angels is better then both clubs by 10. Yet the NYY and Toronto have better Save and will not be seeing the post season. The Astros have the same Save% as the Angels and they are also on the outside looking in. So you can have a good pen and closer and not make the post season………..
Willie Mays Aikens is FREeeeeeeee
by Angel Aviator on Sep 16, 2008 2:06 PM PDT up reply actions
57+1 = 58
Let no joyful voice be heard! Let no man look up at the sky with hope! And let this day be cursed by we who ready to wake... the K-Rod!
i was there
and it was AWESOME!
i’m gonna put up some pictures in a FanPost later on today
Kotch would've had that.
I disagree with most of your opinions
But I do agree with your last sentence. Party on.
Angel Pitching, Angel Defense - get past that.
by vladtheimpaler on Sep 14, 2008 10:41 AM PDT reply actions
Dear Frankie,
Congratulations. Yours is a fearless job, surrounded by a multitude of opportunities for failure, and recorded by those incapable of placing an agreeable value and merit on your contributions. Ignoring them, you succeed.
Too many are fast to judge what you do and how you do it, but utterly ignorant of the reality that you live your career exclusively in the most leveraged environment of your industry. In spite of them, you succeed.
The glory moments of your peers – strikeouts and hits and home runs – are measured pound for pound as though every increment is of equal value, regardless of whether they contribute to a team win, regardless of whether they occured in meaningful or difficult situations, regardless of whether they occured against the best available talent the opposing manager could throw at them in the moment. And the failures of your peers are allowed to far outweigh the glory moments. Your glory moments, by definition, must always result in a victory for your team. And they must far, far outweigh your failures or you are unemployed. In spite of this, you succeed.
You are dismissed because your value to your team is a consequence of circumstances: how your teams fares on offense in relation to how your team fares on defense, adjusted for how your coaching staff manages pitching duties. Because those factors favor you, your detractors ignore that you work as hard, as often and as long as anybody else in your role. Ignoring this, you succeed.
You are abused because your method of achieving success does not match an ideal profile created by those who are not in your shoes, who could not match your ability, who could not compete against your ability, and who have a long record of failed predictions with respect to where your career would take you. Where you actually are reveals that they continue to be wrong, and you continue to succeed.
You are ridiculed for your exuberation. But those who ridicule your behavior have, themselves, long histories going back into the dark ages of this sport where the moment of failure of anyone in your role is celebrated as though a championship has been secured. They are hypocrites. They are small. They are envious. They are ignorant. They are unworthy. You overcome them. You overwhelm them. You succeed.
The vast majority of observers take the easy way out and proclaim that your contributions are unworthy of the value that you desire. It’s easy to prognisticate failure (like your ever-imminent arm failure). And fashionable (as fashionable as dismissing saves). But they forget the lesson of Al Campanis. Further, 5 years from now, what price would a team pay to win just 5 more games and NOT miss the playoffs? When all of the top 25% of team payrolls are over the $150 million mark, would the extra $4million (between what you wanted and what your replacement is getting paid then) to get into the playoffs be worth it then?
This has been one of those years that the fans of your team will look back on and remember, long after you have departed. A career record. In the middle of a record career. It’s been great watching you and rooting for you. Knowing how our team approaches offensive plate appearances, I hope we never have to root against you. Thanks for the year. 58 and counting is not something I will forget. I hope it gets even better. And that will be hard to do, because any player that makes the typcial Mariners fans and typical A’s fans gnash their teeth and pound their fists into walls out of sheer frustration, is EXACTLY the kind of player on I want on my team.
Francisco Rodriguez: 204 career saves. 4 career Panthers, 1/2 as awesome as GMJ.
by Stirrups on Sep 14, 2008 3:34 PM PDT reply actions 4 recs
Now thats the Frankie appreciation post I was looking for
Angel Pitching, Angel Defense - get past that.
by vladtheimpaler on Sep 14, 2008 5:28 PM PDT up reply actions
Still bitter about Frankie and the Panther?
Remember it is just a “panther”, albeit bitchin, just a panther.
"why do you we still have quitlin?" -VladdyG
???
Still bitter over the time I got bitter about Frankie and the Panther? Dude. I dropped it. More recently, I vowed to limit my Panther opinion to my sig. I stick to that.
My post was targeted at the analysts and pundits of ESPN and other popular media outlets, and at sabremetricians, and at the members of AN and LL and such, and at our own fans and HH members who live in a fantasy world where Percy was perfect, and ‘Dondo will be, and Frankie is just polluting the team’s chances. When I composed my thoughts on my post, Panther never entered my mind and the evidence of that is that my sig was out of date.
Francisco Rodriguez: 204 career saves. 5 career Panthers. As fabulous as Pride, Romero, Gregg, Budde and Dino Ebel combined.
About your sig-
Far be it for me to argue with anyone supporting Frankie on this, but the sig seems disingenuous. Panthers have only been awarded and tracked since 2006. Frankie has been accumulating saves since 2003, though he only became closer in 2005. This being the case, I’d argue that the number ought to be 145 saves, since that’s the number of saves he’s accumulated while Panthers were actually being awarded.
~Till the Halo burns out...
That makes sense, but how would I word it?
Francisco Rodriguez: 204 career saves. 5 career Panthers. As fabulous as Pride, Romero, Gregg, Budde and Dino Ebel combined.
Works for me.
Francisco Rodriguez: 2006 to Present: 145 saves. 5 Panthers. As fabulous as Pride, Romero, Gregg, Budde and Dino Ebel combined.
Power of the Panther
Let’s be serious for just a second. The panther folklore if I understand it correctly was brought on by something that was said during the course of a game thread way back when. The story has it that when someone would mention a great Angel accomplishments cupie would reply with the simple post of Panther.
Well, if I am not mistaking there was more then one panther tossed out during that thread. Why is it that the Panther can only be given to one individual per game? In hockey there are 3 players recognized for their effort in the game (stars of the game). In football there are the defensive and offensive players of the game.
Isn’t there Defensive Players of the game (great defensive play/Pitching) offensive player of the game (hitting/baserunning).
Hell, there is even that rare time when a player breaks an Angel team record, or single season record, or career record that a Panther just might be appropriate. In all honesty the way that Panthers have been distributed would lead on to believe that Juan Rivera was with out doubt the Panther of the game (POTG) on Saturday September 13, 2008 when he went 4-4 with 3 doubles and a 2 run home run in the second to tie the game. Not to mention he drove in 3 runs and scored 2 accounting for all 5 runs the team scored that evening. Had he had a Mathis type night there is no Saturday night celebration taking place for F-Rod. Sure F-Rod gets a Panther he put his name in MLB record book that night but JR won the game and should have been recognized for a great night as well.
Let’s look at it for a second. Maybe the way Panthers are distributed by the rules of HH make for the reason that F-Rod only has 5 Panthers. Not sure what the rules are exactly they seem to be mentioned from time to time in the POTG threads and BOTG threads, but not sure if they are listed.
Could very well be that the value of a save is not have as much value as one would like to think. Personally I think there is a need for the Panther rules to be changed. That’s what/who you should be fighting in your tagline.
Willie Mays Aikens is FREeeeeeeee
by Angel Aviator on Sep 15, 2008 8:03 PM PDT up reply actions
I have been informed by the powers that be - on numerous occasions - that
trying to assign rules to panther is contrary to the spirit of panther. I have promised to keep the peace by not discussing panther beyond my sig, which I limit to a single topic.
I keep my word. I enjoy observing the panther discussions, And I encourage you to continue enjoying the panther debates.
Francisco Rodriguez: 2006 to Present: 145 saves. 5 Panthers. As fabulous as Pride, Romero, Gregg, Budde and Dino Ebel combined.
Stirrups sort of beat me to it, but yeah-
There was a pretty decent debate about the Panther rules early on in the season, and eventually the decision was made that it would continue to be a judgment call, no rules attached, at which point those on the other side elected to shut up and let it go, save for the lone reminder of Stirrups’ sig.
~Till the Halo burns out...
There are no Panther rules
seriously a panther shows up at my doorstep after every game and growls the name to me. If he does not show up I put it to a vote and even then he might show up and growl a different name.
And no, I have not actually checked to see if that panther is a boy or a girl panther, I just listen to the growl and write the name I hear.
Panther is an ART not a science.
i too have futilely argued panther systems with the Rev
but ive moved on, as HH is waay to good to nickpick over (supposed) little kinks
Exceeding expectations is less a matter of luck than possession of certain assets.
by anaheim angels on Sep 15, 2008 9:40 PM PDT up reply actions
No rules yet........
have seen you type that a coach can’t be a panther.
Then again as Mel Brooks said in History of the World
“It’s good to be the King”
Right Rev?
Not looking for an argument at all on the subject just looking for the value of the Panther to have weight/merit
Willie Mays Aikens is FREeeeeeeee
by Angel Aviator on Sep 16, 2008 12:54 AM PDT up reply actions
Don't get saucy with me, Bernaise
Willie Mays Aikens is FREeeeeeeee
by Angel Aviator on Sep 16, 2008 9:59 PM PDT up reply actions
In the words of Leonard Cohen
Things are gonna fly
fly in all directions
won’t be nothin’
you can measure anymore
by Rev Halofan on Sep 16, 2008 11:17 AM PDT up reply actions
Panthers
K-Rod deserves more Panthers and there is no getting around that. I think the sig line noted, concerning the number of panthers he has gotten is legitimate gripe.
I can think of at least 58 reasons why K-Rod could have been named Panther.
It seems like K-Rod has to go above and beyond everyone else to even get consideration, while someone like a starting pitcher only has to do their job, in order to get one.
I think if K-Rod was closing back in 2003 and not in 2008, he’d get more consideration every time he comes into the game and has some sort of involvement in the victory.
People were more excited about the post WS K-Rod, than the whether the statement is true or not, ’I’m likely/probably leaving for the money’ K-Rod of 2008.
good point
I agree — K-Rod appears to have to reach a higher state of Pantherdom to receive the distinguished (yet gloriously undefinable) title of Panther. Personally, I think that’s because there are alot of Frankie haters around here who don’t listen to him when he says “Relax”.
How many Panthers does Frankie have compared to Scot Shields?
It’s hard to be seriously credited with a Panther if you only pitch one inning in a game. Someone like Shields probably has about the same or slightly more Panthers (and BOTGs) because he actually has the tougher job in the bullpen (or at least did until Dondo pushed him aside). It’s tougher to come in with runners on base, cleaning up someones mess, and often pitch more than one inning.
Relief pitchers are less likely to play the important role in a win that a starting pitcher or a hitter will.
Team Win >> Panther of the Game
When sabermetricians start using panthers as a statistic for player evaluations, this whole thing has certainly gone to hell in a handbasket.
by Downing Rules on Sep 17, 2008 11:57 AM PDT up reply actions
It is a fan gesture
Emotion and sentimentality rules – I think it gets biased and/or skewed at times, but it isn’t a bad thing on the whole.
While the sentiment of nominating a ‘player of the game’ isn’t original, the Panther is one of the unique things HH has.
Panthers matter because fans need to have their say.
Agree, but...
why do people have to go on and on arguing about it and arguing about how one guy has been short-changed. Not worth the time, IMHO.
by Downing Rules on Sep 18, 2008 9:06 AM PDT up reply actions
Usually the arguments are over BOTG.
Then we all come together and realize that it belongs to GMJ in most, if not all, cases just for being on the roster.
Woah, thats not fair to GMJ
alot go to speier as well
Exceeding expectations is less a matter of luck than possession of certain assets.
by anaheim angels on Sep 19, 2008 4:37 PM PDT up reply actions
If Sunday's game was any indication of a future with Shields
as our closer, Moreno/Reagins must make it a number one priority to sign K-Rod. We will miss K-Rod more than we have missed Glaus at 3rd for all of these years.
You ever feel as if your mind had started to erode?
i agree
arredondo needs more time, shields is not a closer
Exceeding expectations is less a matter of luck than possession of certain assets.
by anaheim angels on Sep 14, 2008 4:38 PM PDT up reply actions
Congrats to you K Rod
I should have been at the game….My BF and daughter were there…I had to work..
Peace Love & Angels Baseball
Does Arte know about your "BF?"
hmmm hmmm hmm…….busted.
Miss you Kotch
by norcaliangelsfan on Sep 21, 2008 12:26 AM PDT up reply actions
Probably not
but he wont even pay for MrsMoreno to get basic cable or MLB.tv so what else would Arte expect? A lady can only be treated poorly for so long before she looks elsewhere.
Driven into right-center field, Erstad says he has it...the Angels, world champions!
As long as he's getting her a BIG ring in October...
she will be happy.
by Downing Rules on Sep 22, 2008 4:35 PM PDT up reply actions
I'll be happy too.
Driven into right-center field, Erstad says he has it...the Angels, world champions!
i'll be more than happy!!
These boys better keep the going good, 9 of my fingers are getting jealous, they want to look like Phil Jackson’s
Peace Love & Angels Baseball

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