How About A New Shortstop?

by TheAntiSox on Jan 10, 2009 3:47 PM PST Comment 56 comments

The Angels 2009 starting lineup (as of now),

C Mike Napoli

1B Kendry Morales

2B Howie Kendrick

3B Brandon Wood

SS Erick Aybar

LF/ 3B Chone Figgins

CF Torii Hunter

RF/DH Juan Rivera

RF/DH Vladimir Guerrero

Pretty descent lineup but there's one place where we don't see a whole lot of production and that's at shortstop.

I've watched and observed Aybar a lot in 2008 at shortstop and I've noticed that he's got quite a glove. However in a time like this where the Angels lose a big bat to free agency and are lacking a proven 5th starter I think Arte, Tony, and Mike should considered doing something at short. Now obviously Aybar hasn't had a whole lot of time to prove himself in 08, appearing in about 100 games but lets face it, he is an under average hitter to say the least. He's had his moments, don't get me wrong, but as far as I'm concerned the Angels need to improve.

There are some options such as moving Wood to SS so Figgins can play regularly at 3rd, switching Aybar with the almost always injured Maicer Izturis, or even let Sean Rodriguez take a crack. I sort of like the idea of moving Figgins or Wood to short but I don't think either of them would last or perform well at that position. I suggest the Angels pull a trade on this one.

Of course there always has been talk of adding a productive shortstop in Miguel Tejada but many people, including myself, think it's too late for that. Khalil Greene would have been a good choice too but again, too late for that as well.

Whatever happens, action or no action in the offseason, I don't think the Angels should be so low par at shortstop.

What do you think?

Poll

What do you think should be done at Shortstop?

Keep Aybar and Izturis right where they are, I trust them

60 votes

Move Figgins to short, making room for an extra outfielder

4 votes

Move Wood to short, making room for Figgins at third

31 votes

Trade for a productive hitting shortstop

17 votes

112 votes | Poll has closed

This Fan-Post is authored by an independent fan. Tell us what you think and how you feel.

1 recs | Comment 56 comments

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Comments

Tejada?

You mean Roid Man?

Angels fan since '67

by red floyd on Jan 10, 2009 4:13 PM PST reply actions 0 recs

lulz

Tex went to the dark side.

by vlad IS my man on Jan 10, 2009 5:34 PM PST up reply actions 0 recs

we're fine

by ihearhowie2.0 on Jan 10, 2009 4:48 PM PST reply actions 0 recs

the worst part of the offseason

is having to read worthless post like these.

Sure, let’s trade for a MI — the position that is THE MOST crowded in the organization. Listen, if we make a trade revolving a MI, then it should be US sending off a SS not taking one on.

Go Angels!

by Four Ts on Jan 10, 2009 5:04 PM PST reply actions 3 recs

"involving" not "revolving"

my bad

Go Angels!

by Four Ts on Jan 10, 2009 5:05 PM PST up reply actions 0 recs

dude...seriously.

to think these people actually watch baseball.

by BryanHarvey'sMoustache on Jan 11, 2009 9:37 PM PST up reply actions 0 recs

Basically, Aybar is the best defensive SS in the ML (with the possible exception of Aviles)

i dont really think theres much debate about this. According to fangraphs his glove saved 8 runs in only 90 games played at SS. Prorated over 150 games, his glove saves 13 runs (2nd in the AL of SS starting at least 90 games). This more than makes up for his bat. Also, saving a run is more valuable than scoring a run, so his impact goes up. Having a great SS lowers the team ERA substantially, which is going to win us more games then an offensively minded clubhanded SS.

Lets go angels

by anaheim angels on Jan 10, 2009 5:20 PM PST reply actions 0 recs

Aybar is good with the glove, no doubt...

but, how is saving a run more valuable than scoring a run? A run is a run, right?

Jim Scully

Jim Scully Home
Haloville - Land of the Halos

by jimmuscomp on Jan 10, 2009 6:21 PM PST up reply actions 0 recs

With the number of runs, or lack thereof, that this team scores

ANY runs scored OR taken is very valuable. If the Angels were an offensive power house consistently winning by margins of four to eight runs, instead of one to three, the glove wouldn’t matter as much. As it is, his glove is incredibly valuable to the team.

Light Up That Halo!

by Clutch on Jan 10, 2009 7:23 PM PST up reply actions 0 recs

agree

I remember that Bill James or someone else as awesome called him the best defensive shortstop of 2008 – despite him having played less than 100 games. Granted, there does seem to be a lack of concentration at times with the odd ball that he just lets slip under his glove, but hopefully that will get fixed. Aybar’s glove is so good that he basically cancels out any damage that he does to the team with his poor bat. And it’s not like he is unbearably bad at hitting (83 OPS+ last year – incidentally, almost identical to Figgins) – something like 3 more doubles and a few more singles would give him like a 290/330/410 line(ish) last year. That’s not great, but it’s not Tony Pena Jr.

Besides, Maicer Izturis should not be starting imo, but he’s still a very capable backup at any of the three infield positions. And he’s only 27. The odd man out here is Figgins – although he does admittedly have value with his speed, he slugged .318 last year. I mean, Jesus Christ. .318.

visiting halos fan

by 442 on Jan 10, 2009 7:46 PM PST up reply actions 0 recs

Where do I begin...

ANY runs scored OR taken is very valuable

Right. I think you should have stopped there.

If the Angels were an offensive power house consistently winning by margins of four to eight runs, instead of one to three, the glove wouldn’t matter as much.

What? If the Halos were consistently winning by margins of four to eight runs I could play SS and it would not make a friggin’ difference. No team wins by 4 to 8 runs.

Anyway, this is BS. A run scored or saved are exactly the same.

If B-Wood can be (making crap up here) +6 runs at SS with the bat and -2 with the glove while Aybar is -10 with the bat and +14 with the glove they are equivalent players. There is no difference.

Here is the difference for me: Batting stats are much more advanced and more reliable than defensive metrics. I agree that Aybar is a really good defensive shortstop, but I can’t be sure if he is +15 runs or +8 runs or +22 runs. But, I know he is bad with the bat – and there are stats that will tell me how bad.

I’d go with Wood at SS and Figgy at 3B this year unless the Halos can get something useful for Figgy. IF that is the case, I’d be OK with Aybar/Izzy at SS and B-Wood at 3B, but Wood will be more valuable at SS compared to his peers.

Jim Scully

Jim Scully Home
Haloville - Land of the Halos

by jimmuscomp on Jan 10, 2009 8:19 PM PST up reply actions 0 recs

truthfully i think youll see them play side by side

I really do think we’ll see a Figgins/Izturis package sent somewhere near the deadline

by ihearhowie2.0 on Jan 10, 2009 9:01 PM PST up reply actions 0 recs

agreed

Deal either Aybar, Izturis, or Figgins. Do it before the season starts. Wood at either SS/3B, Fill the gap with whom is left over. Use Izturis as a SUPER UTILITY PLAYER.

I make money on Survey Savvy

by Jay Cal on Jan 12, 2009 8:34 AM PST up reply actions 0 recs

pythagorean win expectation

suppose a team scores 750 runs and gives up 750 runs. The foremula is (runs scored)2/[(runs scored)2+(runs against)^2]
Its not by too much, but scoring a run increases win expectancy (of 162 games) by 0.107928, whereas saving a run increases win expectancy by 0.108072. Not too dramatic, but then again it is one run.
Whats the difference between a +0 hitter +10 fielder (player A) and a +10 hitter +0 fielder (player B). Ill spare you the math since its really just plugging in numbers, the +10 fielder wins 0.01439872 more games.
What about +25 fielder, or a +25 hitter? +30? +25 fielder wins 0.089949972 more games than the +25 hitter, and the +30 fielder wins 0.129496237 more games then the +30 hitter.
Then there are also the positional adjustments. For example, a SS that hits like a 1B is much better based against the league average SS than a 1B that hits like a SS rates against the average 1B.
Here are the commonly used position adjustments (http://www.fangraphs.com/blogs/index.php/explaining-win-values-part-three)
Catcher: +12.5 runs (all are per 150 defensive games)
First Base: -12.5 runs
Second Base: +2.5 runs
Third Base: +2.5 runs
Shortstop: +7.5 runs
Left Field: -7.5 runs
Center Field: +2.5 runs
Right Field: -7.5 runs
Designated Hitter: -17.5 runs

This wouldnt affect aybars value vs a better hitting SS, but it does when people complain that aybar cant hit, when all they have to do is look around at the league average SS and realize that as a group, SS dont hit well.
There are no FA SS that can hit, so im assuming that TheAntiSox means in a trade. Assuming Hanley is out of the question (Weaver/Saunders, Aybar/Wood, Jepsen, Figgins anyone?), the only SS that hit above averageish, are Stephen Drew (not gonna get traded), JJ Hardy, Jose Reyes, Jimmy Rollins, Christian Guzman (god no), and Yunel Escobar. Were not getting any of those unless a miracle happens. Mike Aviles, Johnny Peralta, Jeter, Theriot, and Barmes also are in that category. The truth is, if Aybar plays 150 games, he is a top 7ish SS in the league. The only “upgrade” we could get really without selling out the entire farm would be mike aviles, and im not completely sold on him. Also, we pay Aybar 400k!!!

Lets go angels

by anaheim angels on Jan 10, 2009 8:00 PM PST up reply actions 0 recs

Wow.

Thanks for the clarification – I stand corrected. But I still would put Wood at SS and Figgy at 3B with the current lack of offense on this team.

Jim Scully

Jim Scully Home
Haloville - Land of the Halos

by jimmuscomp on Jan 10, 2009 8:22 PM PST up reply actions 1 recs

that might be so

But i think id prefer trading figgins and starting Wood and Aybar, or moving Figgins to the OF and rotating Juan and Vlad in the DH with Figgins switching from left to right. actually that might work. wed have a lineup of
LF/RF-Figgins
2B-Howie
RF/DH-Vlad
CF-Torii
RF/DH-Juan
1B-Morales
C-Naps
3B-Wood
SS-Aybar

it seems a little lacking especially at the top of the order, but if howie hits well and stays healthy, and we hire nathan haynes to be figgins advisor, wed be set.

Lets go angels

by anaheim angels on Jan 10, 2009 8:32 PM PST up reply actions 0 recs

Haynes just signed with Texas

so that ain’t happening. =(

but i think that lineup is decent. it’s not great, but we could still do some damage if Morales and Wood break out

Kotch would've had that.

by howiestheman on Jan 10, 2009 8:52 PM PST up reply actions 0 recs

no need to give up on our guys

as stated above, Aybar is an insanely good defensive SS, and Izzy is very solid as well.
let’s give Aybar the chance to make strides in his offensive game before we ship him out.

oh yeah, Aybar is tearing up the DWL right now.

Kotch would've had that.

by howiestheman on Jan 10, 2009 5:45 PM PST reply actions 0 recs

RICOLA!!!!!!! RIDICULOUS!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Tejada’s home run totals and slugging percentages have declined every year since 2004. In 2008 he had a solid .283 BA but only a .314 OBP. This asshole only had 24 walks while having 632 AB’s. He was basically a right handed GA. WE DON’T NEED RIGHT HANDED HITTING INFIELDERS WHO CAN’T GET ON BASE. I SAID THAT ABOUT CREDE AND I AM SAYING IT AGAIN. This idea is retarded.

by Chzburger Jones on Jan 10, 2009 6:25 PM PST reply actions 0 recs

My opinion of SS

Is the same opinion I have regarding K-MO at first, just let them(meaning Aybar and Izturis) play. The last thing we need to do is go out and trade for another SS, no matter the possible offensive upgrade at the position. We all have to come to grips with the fact, that barring an unforeseen trade or FA signing, this is our Halo line up ‘09. With everybody ripping on Aybar for lack of hitting ability, it makes me wonder how patient we would’ve all been with a shortstop like Ozzie Smith.

YOU DON'T KNOW THE POWER OF THE DARKSIDE.....

by halofolife on Jan 10, 2009 7:34 PM PST reply actions 0 recs

btw, Khalil greenes offense can be summed up in 1 number

.599
No thats not his career slugging, thats his OPS LAST YEAR! his OPS is lower than freakin Bonds career SLUGGING! Thats what you call a downgrade

Lets go angels

by anaheim angels on Jan 10, 2009 8:05 PM PST reply actions 0 recs

Your numbers are lies!!!

His name is Khalil Greene. Khahil Greene is a good hitter. Therefore, we should get Khalil Greene becuase Khalil Greene is a good hitter.

Much luminous.

I study every one of his match.

by snowhor on Jan 10, 2009 8:12 PM PST up reply actions 1 recs

Come to think of it...

After reading all these comments I would definitely agree jimmuscomp and move Wood to SS. Although he’s not the defender Aybar is, he’s still a descent defender .979 fielding percentage in nearly 200 innings in 08. Plus Figgins really showed great defensive skills at 3B last year.

Oh and I only mentioned Tejada because of the history of interest the Angels had in him. Obviously now Tejada is heavily declining but was at one time a pretty great SS with a bat….like 4 or 5 years ago.

Also I agree with anaheim angels that at SS there aren’t too many plausible options of a good trade, althought Jose Reyes and Hanley Ramirez are pretty awesome but VERY impossible.

I still think Khalil Greene would have been an awesome choice. He had a bad year, sure, but he’s young and his road numbers were incredible compared to PETCO (pitchers park). Not to mention that the Cardinals got him for almost nothing.

by TheAntiSox on Jan 10, 2009 9:54 PM PST reply actions 0 recs

SS

Michael Young is on the block and is being offered for Jermaine Dye and the top prospect of the White Sox pitching. Sox are looking for their lead-off hitter. So the Sox have failed on Brian Roberts and now move to plan B which seems to be Michael Young. Eventually, they’ll get to Figgy.

But it does tell you that Michael Young is available. Is he much of an improvement over the current Angel players as far as power goes? Sure he’s got the 200 hits going, but don’t the Angels need starting pitching and a bat?

by Kristy_Joe on Jan 10, 2009 11:21 PM PST reply actions 0 recs

nobody is gonna trade for michael young unless texas pays his disgusting contract

by ihearhowie2.0 on Jan 10, 2009 11:36 PM PST up reply actions 0 recs

and perhaps

thats why the sox still in need of a lead off man will make a deal for Figgy. But question is what is Figgy’s value?

by Kristy_Joe on Jan 11, 2009 12:20 AM PST up reply actions 0 recs

Figgy's value

well… it will never be higher…

by Rev Halofan on Jan 11, 2009 12:39 AM PST up reply actions 0 recs

To the white sox its pretty high

Kenny willimas likes him alot, which means hell give up alot for him. Wether we can leverage that for Danks/Floyd is a longshot, but a man can dream cant he?

Lets go angels

by anaheim angels on Jan 11, 2009 12:48 AM PST up reply actions 0 recs

spoken like a true diplomat

how much is GA’s value? It will never be higher. How much is Babe Ruth’s value? It will never be higher.

by Kristy_Joe on Jan 11, 2009 4:24 PM PST up reply actions 0 recs

huh??

How about spoken like its the truth. We’re not re-signing Figgins so every day that passes in spring training and the regular season is one less that another team could have him, thus lowering his value.

So yes, barring him hitting .340 in April and May, his value to the Angels in terms of trade value is as high as it will ever be before 2010 because he will not be here in 2010.

by ihearhowie2.0 on Jan 11, 2009 5:28 PM PST up reply actions 0 recs

putz

We never know we go, – when we are going
  we jest and shut the door;
Fate following behind us bolts it,
         And we accost no more.
                     —-Emily Dickinson

You seem to have crystal balls!

by Kristy_Joe on Jan 11, 2009 10:45 PM PST up reply actions 0 recs

i'd say its a pretty safe bet that figgy wont hit .340 in april and may

by linkbruin on Jan 11, 2009 10:46 PM PST up reply actions 0 recs

huh?

why? maybe he’ll be with texas with nate haynes and give em that famous fickle finger of fate, or figgy bird when he rounds first. why else would texas sign nate haynes?

by Kristy_Joe on Jan 11, 2009 10:49 PM PST up reply actions 0 recs

??

Maybe because they think Haynes is an overall useful player for, you know, his athletic ability?

Light Up That Halo!

by Clutch on Jan 12, 2009 10:21 AM PST up reply actions 0 recs

Rev...

Put a call into Arte. Make this happen. We have too many pieces for 2 positions. Dealing Figgs will free up a positional place. Trade him for top AAA prospects or another arm. Playing Wood everyday will make a difference to this team.

I make money on Survey Savvy

by Jay Cal on Jan 12, 2009 8:39 AM PST up reply actions 0 recs

Everybody just chill...

The line up will remain the same, let the youngsters play. I’m really trying to be Zen, regarding our up coming season!!!!

YOU DON'T KNOW THE POWER OF THE DARKSIDE.....

by halofolife on Jan 10, 2009 11:41 PM PST reply actions 0 recs

Freudian typo?

Pretty descent lineup

by Nate on Jan 11, 2009 1:08 AM PST reply actions 0 recs

In order of preference

1) Aybar as SS, Wood at 3B, enjoy watching them grow up & play great defense and learn how to hit for cheap. Trade Izturis and Figgins for what you can get; hopefully a starter or a bat or an outfielder younger than 30.

2) Same thing, only hold onto Figgins as a LF/DH/rover for one last year & then enjoy a (hopefully) Type A draft pick when he walks.

3) Wood at SS, Figgins at 3B for one last year, include Aybar in your trade (and insist on getting a Jake Peavy type in return).

4-infinity) Everything else, which strikes me as terrible.

by mattwelch on Jan 11, 2009 2:56 AM PST reply actions 1 recs

2) figgins will not command a first round draft pick, unless he goes absolutely crazy this year.

3) but who would we trade for? peavy seems to be the only great pitcher on the trading block, and i think chicago can put up a much better package than us if we’re not including wood.

visiting halos fan

by 442 on Jan 11, 2009 10:21 AM PST up reply actions 0 recs

Too early to tell about post-2009 free agents, I think

As for trades, if we can’t get an impact player (i.e., someone better than Jon Garland or Raul Ibanez), I’d trade almost exclusively for legitimate outfield prospects. We are thin, old, and slow in the outfield (even though that’s where we got a lot of our offense from last year).

by mattwelch on Jan 11, 2009 10:31 AM PST up reply actions 0 recs

right now

i’ll take anyone who doesn’t suck with the glove and is under 30. our outfield defense will be laughably bad come 2010. some intriguing names i see are guys like austin kearns or elijah dukes, especially since the nationals don’t’ seem to be going anywhere.

visiting halos fan

by 442 on Jan 13, 2009 10:12 PM PST up reply actions 0 recs

Here's an Idea

Move Wood to SS, keep Figgy at 3rd base, trade Ayber and Matthews for a starting pitcher, then resign Garret Anderson. Every body’s happy!!!

by TheAntiSox on Jan 11, 2009 2:45 PM PST reply actions 0 recs

matthews won't get traded

and signing GA would not make me happy.

Kotch would've had that.

by howiestheman on Jan 11, 2009 3:21 PM PST up reply actions 0 recs

New Dynasty League Open

The Angels have yet to be taken. If interested go to MLB Owners League and fill out an application under League Sign Up. 30 teams, free. Questions can be sent to themlbwire@gmail.com.

Mike Grouse Interview - Rangers' Midwest Cross Checker

by Andy Seiler on Jan 11, 2009 4:48 PM PST reply actions 0 recs

I like Wood at short.

Figgins wasn’t the greatest lead off hitter last year but he was outstanding in 2007 and he is the best option we got at the lead off spot so he needs to be in the lineup.

by Chzburger Jones on Jan 11, 2009 6:33 PM PST reply actions 0 recs

Doesn't matter anymore but

I would have signed Furcal to play short. He would have batted leadoff, been productive, and played GG caliber SS. Moved Wood to 3rd and tell him it’s his to lose. The outfield was set with Rivera, Hunter, and Vlad. I would have packaged Figgins, Adenhart, Aybar, GMJ (And paid 3/4 of his salary), and Weaver for Jake Peavy and a low level prospect. That’s a lot to trade I know… but fuck it, overwhelm them. Almost like, “I made him an offer he couldn’t refuse”.

1. Furcal SS
2. Kendrick 2nd
3. Vlad RF
4. Rivera LF
5. Hunter CF
6. Napoli C
7. Morales 1st
8. Wood 3rd
9. Izturis DH

SP1: Lackey
SP2: Peavy
SP3: Saunders
SP4: Santana
SP5: Nick Green /Moseley

A Furcal signing could have had a beautiful ripple effect throughout our club. Figgins is no longer neccesary and would have fit in with AntiSox post.

But it’s either here, nor there any longer. I don’t think there’s another SS that can be had like that right now, but that’s what I would have done if I had Reagins job.

by matt92130 on Jan 12, 2009 3:45 AM PST reply actions 0 recs

Just saw this... likely old news but here ya...

Michael Young Requested Trade From Rangers:

http://www.mlbtraderumors.com/2009/01/michael-young-r.html

by matt92130 on Jan 12, 2009 3:49 AM PST reply actions 0 recs

I would feel much better about this lineup...

If we went out and picked up a solid fifth starter. I’m more comfortable with Green/Moseley being insurance for any injuries or rest, with the idea that Escobar could come later in the year and help either the starters or pen.

by Wytelitning on Jan 12, 2009 9:43 AM PST reply actions 0 recs

I completely agree with you

Do you think Escobar is going to be able to come back and jump into the rotation? I’m not sure his arm can withstand the rigors of 5 innings at a pop. I think he’ll be used more as a bullpen arm… and a solid one at that.

by matt92130 on Jan 13, 2009 12:32 AM PST up reply actions 0 recs

Agree with you — bullpen only.

In wyte’s defense, he did use the word “could help” in reference to the starters, but I doubt it.

by Downing Rules on Jan 13, 2009 9:21 AM PST up reply actions 0 recs

No starts for Escobar

What was learned when he was considering surgery is that he lacks one of the four muscles in his right shoulder—he was born without it. Considering how hard he throws and how long he’s been a pitcher, it is amazing his arm didn’t simply drop off.

His rehabbed shoulder would rightly be considered “fragile” and the idea of starting every 5th day is most likely out of the question.

I could see if the Angels go with Adenhart/Green for the #5 that he’s lurking in the pen, ready to do a few innings of middle relief if the young starter falters in the game. I think he’ll be used to bridge middle innings and bring order to the defense, so that the offense has a chance to come back in the game.

by George Kaplan on Jan 13, 2009 7:33 AM PST reply actions 0 recs