Rickey and Rice to Cooperstown
by Rev Halofan on Jan 12, 2009 11:07 AM PST
in News
40 comments
Rickey deserved it.
Rice did not. Had he played for a scattering of teams ala Andre Dawson, Rice might not have even remained on the ballot this long. The late-'90s surge in contemporary Red Sox nostalgia on the way to the team building a new dynasty has imbued revisionist history toward Jim Rice, a figure who was actually reviled by the racist Boston faithful as a groundout-double-play specialist.
John Henry has his ways of buying lore that are darker and more insidious than Steinbrenner ever imagined.
This is a crappy day in the history of baseball - the playing field is not level. Maybe it never was but the fact was just confirmed live on MLB TV.
2010 Ballot RETURNING: (with '09 % of Vote - 75% needed for election)
Andre Dawson - (67.0%)
Bert Blyleven - (62.7%)
Lee Smith - (44.5%)
Jack Morris - (44.0%)
Tim Raines - (22.6%)
Mark McGwire - (21.9%)
Alan Trammell - (17.4%)
Dave Parker - (15.0%)
Don Mattingly - (11.9%)
Dale Murphy (11.5%)
Harold Baines - (5.9%)
2010 Ballot NEW:
Roberto Alomar
Andres Galarraga
Pat Hentgen
Mike Jackson
Eric Karros
Barry Larkin
Edgar Martinez
Fred McGriff
David Segui
Robin Ventura
Todd Zeile
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Two Questions
1. Who are the idiots who left Henderson off their ballots? My second biggest gripe about the HOF is those idiot sportswriters who think it’s their purpose in life to make sure nobody is inducted unanimously. Right. THAT makes you worthwhile.
2. When will they take the broom to the Hall? My biggest gripe is the sheer number of B-Level talent that is enshrined. Jim Rice?? Feh. Putting him on the same wall as Ruth, Williams, and Seaver is an injustice. Voting him in brings the whole level down.
I don't know...I'm makin' this up as I go.
by ArkAngel on Jan 12, 2009 12:40 PM PST reply actions 0 recs
I wasn't done
Couldn’t agree more with your points, ArkAngel, especially with respect to the lowlife writers who refuse to vote for an obviously eligible candidate simply because they believe nobody should be a unanimous pick. Take, for example, fat Bill Conlin of the Philadelphia Daily News. He often refuses to vote for a player in his first year of eligibility, and proudly so declares, simply because his childhood hero Joe DiMaggio wasn’t a unanimous selection.
An over-the-hill, geriatric writer from somewhere in Arizona didn’t vote for Henderson, really without any explanation or justification other than he didn’t really think about it. The same writer also voted for Matt Williams because he “played hard,” but didn’t vote for McGwire because of his link to PEDs (while also ignoring the fact that Williams is implicated in the Mitchell Report).
It’s too bad that the BBWAA doesn’t have some kind of criteria to maintain voting privileges, such as not abusing that privilege.
by jjackflash on Jan 12, 2009 12:52 PM PST up reply actions 0 recs
Rice was a Fenway fabrication. He doesn't belong in the Hall of Fame.
Rice career numbers at Fenway:
4075 ABs. 208 HRs. .320/.374/.546
Rice career road stats:
4150 ABs. 174 HRs. .277/.330/.459
For comparison; some other sluggers from Rice’s era.
George Foster career road stats:
3568 ABs. 164 HRs. .279/.338/,474
Don Baylor career road stats:
4240 ABs. 182 HRs. .267/.347/.449
Dave Kingman career road stats:
3380 ABs. 225 HRs. .234/.299/.478
I am NOT suggesting that Foster, Baylor or Kingman belong in the Hall. I wanted to illustrate that on the road, Rice was no more of a “feared slugger” than this threesome.
Bottom line: Rice was very fortunate to have played for the Red Sox. Otherwise he would NOT be getting into the Hall of Fame.
"Playoffs?? Don’t talk about — playoffs? You kidding me? Playoffs? I just hope we can win a game!"
by Fan Since 1981 on Jan 12, 2009 1:02 PM PST reply actions 0 recs
Interesting: Kingman hit 13 HRs in Fenway (76 career ABs)
I know, 76 ABs is an insignificant sample size. But that’s freaking impressive; 13 HRs in only 76 ABs. (.276/.345/.816)
"Playoffs?? Don’t talk about — playoffs? You kidding me? Playoffs? I just hope we can win a game!"
by Fan Since 1981 on Jan 12, 2009 1:19 PM PST up reply actions 0 recs
ri-effing-diculous
that some mediocre corner OF should get into the Hall simply because he played at Fenway.
get a brain, writers.
Kotch would've had that.
by howiestheman on Jan 12, 2009 1:24 PM PST reply actions 0 recs
If Bert Blyleven played for the Yankees or Red Sox
he would be in the Hall of Fame. The worse thing that happened to baseball was when ESPN decided to be located in Bristol, CT.
by SC81 on Jan 12, 2009 1:42 PM PST reply actions 0 recs
Central Location, Cheap Rent...
They should have selected dead center of the Contiguous 48 to alleviate our whining about east-coast bias:
LINK – to – LEBANON, KS
by Downing Rules on Jan 12, 2009 1:46 PM PST up reply actions 0 recs
I can see the caption on that pic on the wikipedia page now:
“A small chapel and picnic ground AND ESPN HQ are located adjacent the marker”
by Downing Rules on Jan 12, 2009 1:47 PM PST up reply actions 0 recs
And it would provide an excuse to bomb Lebanon...
…and frankly, your Lebanon has been getting off lightly compared to its Mediterranean cousin
I see red people
by The Limey on Jan 12, 2009 1:53 PM PST up reply actions 0 recs
That is simply because
our Cairo has yet to invade…
by Stirrups on Jan 12, 2009 2:15 PM PST up reply actions 0 recs
I think many people saw this coming unfortunately
I never got to see Rice play, but his numbers obviously aren’t Hall worthy. What’s especially upsetting about this is that the Boston media and Red Sox Nation publicity machine put him in the Hall. Evidently wearing a Red Sox uniform and playing in Fenway Park holds as much weight as reaching 3000 hits for the voters. We might as well put Albert Belle in the Hall.
by stolenbases on Jan 12, 2009 2:00 PM PST reply actions 0 recs
Chuck Finley
Random thought, but would he be in the Hall or at least arouse debate for his induction if he had played for the Yankees or Red Sox most of his career and didn’t have to deal with the years the Angels put out subpar or complete crap offensively like the 1992 gang of Junior Felix, Rene Gonzales, Hubie Brooks, Von Hayes, etc?
by stolenbases on Jan 12, 2009 2:08 PM PST reply actions 0 recs
I dunno. I ain't gonna cry as hard as you guys over this.
I ain’t a numbers guy, but if Duke Snider is on that wall, Jim Rice can be there too.
I do know that, as a fan, he was one of the guys who I never liked to see come to bat.
by Stirrups on Jan 12, 2009 2:26 PM PST reply actions 0 recs
No Mo Vaughn, huh?
Hooters anyone?
by Chone's Chonies on Jan 12, 2009 2:37 PM PST reply actions 0 recs
The Biggest Travesty
is that Tim Raines isn’t in yet. He is far more deserving than anyone on this year’s ballot except for Rickey Henderson (and yes, I do think that Blyleven should be there as well). But at least most voters agree about Bert; incredibly, the vast majority think Raines doesn’t belong.
Consider: 808 SBs, with an 85% success rate; he reached base more in his career than Tony Gwynn; he has a 123 OPS+ for his career; Jayson Stark points out that Raines led the National League in singles, doubles, triples and walks from 1982-1988. If he had played in New York or Los Angeles, Raines would have made it on his first ballot.
by jjackflash on Jan 12, 2009 4:01 PM PST reply actions 0 recs
well
he did play for the yankees for a couple of years, but i totally agree with you. rickey has the most steals, but rock was the best base stealer. it’s too bad that he was the second-best leadoff hitter in his era.
visiting halos fan
by 442 on Jan 12, 2009 4:22 PM PST reply actions 0 recs
by 442 on Jan 12, 2009 4:23 PM PST up reply actions 0 recs
Law makes an interesting point
By saying that perhaps Raines’ drug use early in his career was a factor; whilst also mentioning that Paul Molitor’s cocaine abuse was never held against him in the same way. Does race play a factor? Perhaps it does.
Raines deserves to be in, Rice does not.
Tex is a Yank...now our counter move is what?
by hk47 on Jan 13, 2009 9:58 AM PST up reply actions 0 recs
by the way
There are a couple of voters that supposedly turn in blank ballots each year as a protest against steroids. That’s ridiculous. They should be expelled from the BBRAA immediately.
visiting halos fan
by 442 on Jan 12, 2009 4:31 PM PST reply actions 0 recs
Lame
Yeah, that’s lame, but not as lame as refusing to vote for a player out of fear that he will get a higher % of votes than your childhood hero. At least there’s some principle involved, and the person is consistent (no votes at all), as opposed to “I’m voting, and I’ll vote for the guy next year if he’s still on the ballot, but somebody was an idiot in the past, so I’ll be an idiot now to get even.”
by jjackflash on Jan 12, 2009 5:03 PM PST up reply actions 0 recs
My childhood hero was Brian Downing
damn would I be stingy with votes were that my litmus…
by Rev Halofan on Jan 12, 2009 5:05 PM PST up reply actions 0 recs
Bear in mind...
…these are professional sportswriters we’re talking about. If I ate nothing but chicken wings and had to live in a motel, I guess I’d be an idiot too.
I don't know...I'm makin' this up as I go.
by ArkAngel on Jan 12, 2009 5:13 PM PST up reply actions 0 recs
People learn from the mistakes of the past
And decide to compensate by repeating them. This is why noone gets excited over MVPs or HoF votes.
visiting halos fan
by 442 on Jan 13, 2009 2:20 AM PST up reply actions 0 recs
I was also going to make this point...
about the blank ballots. What a shame.
Tex is a Yank...now our counter move is what?
by hk47 on Jan 13, 2009 9:58 AM PST up reply actions 0 recs
Fucking Phil Rizzuto and Pee Wee Reese are already in the HoF
as far as I’m concerned, the honor is already tainted by revisionist bullshit.
by Caseys Kiss of Death on Jan 12, 2009 5:12 PM PST reply actions 0 recs
F for language, A for content.
I reserve that extra name for Dave ___________ Henderson and Doug ____________ Eddings.
I don't know...I'm makin' this up as I go.
by ArkAngel on Jan 12, 2009 5:14 PM PST up reply actions 0 recs
More on Rice
With regards to the Rice HoF announcement, I’ve noticed news outlets (not the all-sports ones) in the mainstream media using the phrase “one of the most feared sluggers of the late 1970’s”. The three seasons covering 1977-1979 are basically why Rice is going to the Hall. But upon further review:
1977
Home: .321/.375/.683 27 HRs
Road: .319 /.377/.509 12 HRs
1978
Home: .361/.416/.690 28 HRs
Road: .269 /.325/.512 18 HRs
1979
Home: .369 /.425/.728 27 HRs
Road: .283/.337/.472 12 HRs
I had already noted in a post above about Rice’s Fenway advantage. That advantage was very evident during his big three seasons.
"Playoffs?? Don’t talk about — playoffs? You kidding me? Playoffs? I just hope we can win a game!"
by Fan Since 1981 on Jan 12, 2009 5:47 PM PST reply actions 0 recs
How do these numbers stack up against the rest of baseball during the same years?
by Stirrups on Jan 12, 2009 9:46 PM PST up reply actions 0 recs
Adjusted OPS+ rankings
Where Rice ranked in the AL:
1977: 6th (147)
1978: 1st (157)
1979: 4th (154)
Oriole slugger Ken Singleton:
1977: 2nd (165)
1978: 3rd (152)
1979: 3rd (155)
In the NL, George Foster:
1977: 2nd (165)
1978: 6th (151)
1979: 2nd (155)
"Playoffs?? Don’t talk about — playoffs? You kidding me? Playoffs? I just hope we can win a game!"
by Fan Since 1981 on Jan 13, 2009 1:39 AM PST up reply actions 0 recs
Glad Rickey made it...he deserves it
12/19/08 - Thank you KLJ for coming into my life.
by norcaliangelsfan on Jan 12, 2009 11:36 PM PST reply actions 0 recs
Seems like we say this every year...
it is becoming the hall of above average.
Lamest poster of all-time.
by ineptituderunsamok on Jan 13, 2009 12:35 AM PST reply actions 0 recs
Let's play mystery players!
Per U.S.S. Mariner :
Player A: 12 seasons, .271/.390/.406. 5,015 at-bats, 1,051 hits, 221 doubles, 34 triples, 129 home runs, 974 walks. 100th-best OBP ever (just behind Dave Magadan!). 119th all-time in walks. Five all-star games, finished second in one MVP vote.
Player B: 13 seasons, .291/.401/.444 line. In 6,483 at-bats had 1,888 hits, 311 doubles, 51 triples, 184 home runs, and 1,1191 walks. That’s 60th on the career OBP list, 57 on the career walk list, down in the mid-300s for doubles, the HRs almost doesn’t count. Nine all-star game appearances, one MVP.
Player C: 23 seasons, .294/.385/.425. 7 all-star game picks. OBP is ~130 all-time career. SLG almost #600. 113 in doubles (about to be passed by Alex). 33rd in total walks.
Player D: 16 seasons, .298/.352/.502. Eight all-star games, one MVP. SLG is the 89th-best career mark. HRs the 55th-best ever.
Player E: 13 seasons. .279/.399/.419. 255 doubles, 33 triples, 149 HR. 1,095 walks. 60th-best career OBP. 74th all-time walks. Seven all-star games, one MVP.
Baserunning:
A – 638 SB, 174 CS (15th all-time)
B – 994 SB(!), 229 CS (2nd all-time)
C – 808 SB, 146 CS (5th all-time)
D – 58 SB, 34 CS
E – 703 SB, 168 CS (11th all-time)
visiting halos fan
by 442 on Jan 13, 2009 2:17 AM PST reply actions 0 recs
And the answers...
Player A is 12 randomly-picked Rickey Henderson seasons (79, 81, 82, 86-88,91, 92, 94, 96, 01, 02).
Player B is the first 13 years of Rickey Henderson played.
Player C is Tim Raines’ career.
Player D is Jim Rice, who was just elected.
Player E is half of Rickey Henderson’s career numbers.
Shows you how ridiculous Rickey was and how overrated Rice is. And this doesn’t take the whole issue with Fenway Park into account.
visiting halos fan
by 442 on Jan 13, 2009 2:19 AM PST up reply actions 0 recs
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