Congratulations are in order
In the spirit of good sportsmanship, I just wanted to send out a big congratulations for the hard fought victory tonight. It was a long, grueling series to cap an eventful season, and I want to pay my respects to that.
So without further ado, my heartfelt congratulations to the Seattle Mariners, Texas Rangers, Cleveland Indians, Kansas City Royals, Florida Marlins, Yomiuri Giants, and Oakland Athletics on their big ALCS win tonight. Without your selfless sacrificing, inability to sign lucrative enough deals, and tireless scouting efforts to harvest the finest talents in the world, this victory would not have been possible. The New York Yankees are forever in your gratitude for doing the real leg work that they have been so incapable of for a decade, so that you may be cast into their shadow for yet another season.
Congratulations again...and here's to another decade of being the REAL talent and brains of baseball. Don't forget to spend that $3 million that'll trickle down to you from the luxury tax so you can sign Scott Schoenweis to a one year deal to restore competitive balance.
Go Phillies. I'll be rooting for you to crush Wal-Mart the Yankees.
This Fan-Post is authored by an independent fan. Tell us what you think and how you feel.
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110 comments
Comments
I’ll be rooting for you to crush Wal-Mart the Yankees.
Definitely made me chuckle
by TheAntiSox on Oct 25, 2009 10:30 PM PDT reply actions 0 recs
What's funny is...
If the Yankees lost, the story would have been: “Haha, Yankees. All the money in the world can’t save you now.”
Damned if they do, Damned if they don’t…
by MidwayCityLivestock on Oct 25, 2009 10:38 PM PDT reply actions 0 recs
Well
I’ve heard people say that same thing before.
And to them, I say…no one made you spend the money, so if you willing put yourself in a position to be ridiculed either way, you’ve got yourself to blame. If you lose, you’re pathetic for the failure because of all you put into it. If you win, so what? No team SHOULDN’T win, given the circumstance.
by Caseys Kiss of Death on Oct 25, 2009 10:40 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
I dont really give a rats ass who wins the WS this year...
but something tells me that the Phillies might put up a decent fight. Especially if the Yanks continue to play the BS baseball they’ve been playing.
Its weird, this may make it worse for some but I know the Yankees arent a better team than us. Almost every game we played them this year could have gone either way. They arent worse but they certainly aren’t any better.
So does that make the lose any worse? For some, maybe. For me, not so much. We lost to a formidable foe. And as I said at the beginning of this series, if any team could beat the yankees, it is the Angels. So we lost…but damn if we werent the best team in the American League to put up against them.
Do it for Nick '09
by BryanHarvey'sMoustache on Oct 25, 2009 10:56 PM PDT reply actions 0 recs
The way they played, they were a beatable team. Unfortunately, we played in a way to be beatable too.
Rest in piece Nick, Courtney, and Henry. To the 2009 Angels: I love you all. Thanks for a ride every bit as enjoyable and entertaining as 2002.
by AlanFalcon on Oct 26, 2009 9:21 AM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
FUCK YES
The time is out of joint; oh cursed spite, that ever I was born to set it right.
by chairmanofthebar on Oct 25, 2009 11:04 PM PDT reply actions 0 recs
I can't believe the Yankees charge $40 for parking.
How can anyone support this team…..errrr…..corporation?
I've got nothing.
by bc56274 on Oct 25, 2009 11:32 PM PDT reply actions 0 recs
Are you serious?????
The time is out of joint; oh cursed spite, that ever I was born to set it right.
by chairmanofthebar on Oct 25, 2009 11:56 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
$40? I can't decide if that's outrageous or not. I think SF deliberately did not provide much parking when they built the new stadium for the Giants.
and it might be that high for the lots nearest that park.
THIS… IS… ANAHEIM!!
by opiejeanne on Oct 26, 2009 12:15 AM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
It's 40 bones for a few of the privately owned lots adjacent to the Stadium.
The old garage which is probably being torn down that was owned by the Yanks charged like 26 dollars. Most people either park on the street for free or take the subway/ metro north.
Strikeouts are boring- Besides that, they're fascist. Throw some ground balls - it's more democratic.
by CasanovaWong on Oct 26, 2009 12:39 AM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
Park within a stone's throw of Angels Stadium for 8 bucks...or 5 even.
and then get a ticket for a little more than that.
To, you know, see a team owned by people who actually care about the fans.
by Caseys Kiss of Death on Oct 26, 2009 12:56 AM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
The corp lots on Orangewood
jacked up the price during the playoffs, but since I have at least 75 minutes on the freeways, it was worth it to get out quickly.
Angels baseball. We do what we must, because we can -- HaloDutch
by red floyd on Oct 26, 2009 9:32 AM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
Best place to park...
…but yeah, $20.00 was a bit steep for a playoff game.
by sothball on Oct 26, 2009 9:45 AM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
Opening day I got there before the gates opened and payed $10
My friend got there right before first pitch and payed $20.
Rest in piece Nick, Courtney, and Henry. To the 2009 Angels: I love you all. Thanks for a ride every bit as enjoyable and entertaining as 2002.
by AlanFalcon on Oct 26, 2009 10:13 AM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
with the tax the garages were $30
$40 for the lots outside that were within four blocks.
I must not fear. Fear is the mind-killer.
by Moondoggy on Oct 26, 2009 6:17 AM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
San Francisco wanted to encourage people to use public transportation, and it works pretty well from what I hear.
I don’t know what you do if you are handicapped, though.
THIS… IS… ANAHEIM!!
by opiejeanne on Oct 26, 2009 11:49 AM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
Hahaha come on,
Are you going to thank the Twins, Nationals, Phillies, Rays, Rockies and whatever team GMJ came from for winning the AL West?
Strikeouts are boring- Besides that, they're fascist. Throw some ground balls - it's more democratic.
by CasanovaWong on Oct 26, 2009 12:37 AM PDT reply actions 1 recs
Interesting
I didn’t know the Angels had more than $130 million in payroll tied to players not of their farm system, the vast majority of which played THE MOST direct role in their winning.
Oh wait, the Angels ENTIRE team payroll isn’t even that high.
Come on dude, say whatever retarded crap you will about how there’s nothing wrong with a team spending $210 million on payroll, but don’t even try to compare the constructions of our two franchises.
by Caseys Kiss of Death on Oct 26, 2009 12:55 AM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
I get what angers you,
and it is understandable, but remember-while the Yankees outspend everyone, teams like the Angels outspend most. The Angels have nearly the same unfair advantage over the Rays that the Yankees have over the Angels. While it does not take a genius GM to luck into a year with an extremely high number of good type-A free agents and then sign the top 3 of them, it is probably what most fans would want their teams to do if they could. I think there is a way to fix this. By “fix” I mean avoid a salary cap. Salary cap’s just line owner’s pockets while inhibiting the innovation that comes with competing in the “open” market. Some ideas:
a)A floor on payroll that a team must have to accept luxury tax money. This would force cheepskate owners from pocketing the money without trying to put a good product on the field.
b)No protection for unsigned picks if your team’s payroll exceeds a certain limit. Thus, teams do not get extra picks in cases of players who don’t sign for reasons other than the gap between player demands and team ability.
c)Combined with (b) teams can only sign type -A FAs up to the number of #1 picks they can give in compensation. That number perhaps can span 3 or so years. So, if you want to sign CC, Tex and AJ, the Brewers, Angels and Jays get one Yankee #1 pick over the next 3 years, and the Yankees cannot sign any other type-As in that time frame.
d)A cap on spending for IFAs. It is not known by most fans that there is a huge disparity on what teams spend on international free agents, with absolutely no protection or balance for teams that can’t do so. The Angels are oone of the teams that takes most advantage of this, and have a lot if good IFAs. The Yankees too. Poor teams cannot do this. Cap IFA spending.
These things would make the game much more interesting. Unlike a salary cap, it would promote and not inhibit innovation, because teams would really have to plan where and how to spend. Even though high payroll teams could still outspend small market teams, they would be taking a bigger risk each time they do. I think this would really help the game, and I say this as a fan of a team with a high payroll.
by Buzzy on Oct 26, 2009 7:20 AM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
I wouldn't want my team to do it if they could
because I realize how damaging it is to the sport to make it a contest over who can spend more.
The argument that the Angels have the ‘same edge’ over the Rays that the Yanks have over us is negligible. There’s a difference between teams that CAN’T spend the extra money, and teams that WON’T. If a payroll cap were set in baseball, the Angels would be sitting right near it (it would more than likely be in the ~$100 million range), whereas the Yankees would have to purge pretty much everyone that got them there this year. Teams with 30 million payrolls are a detriment to the sport, too…refusing to ever spend money doesn’t give you license to complain that other teams outspent you, whereas spending money beyond what any other team is capable of solely because of the size of your media market does.
by Caseys Kiss of Death on Oct 26, 2009 9:53 AM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
I wouldn't want my team to do it if they could
That may be your view, but it is not the view I think most fans would have. And just because a team does not have a large payroll does not mean that their ownership is not willing to spend. The Rays do spend what they can. You could then say “well-they should move” but I think that is unfair. Furthermore, a fan of any team can make arbitrary arguments that the payroll limit should be set where their team currently is. There are plenty of teams that do what the can, but cannot spend nearly as much as the Angels. As for teams that lag when they should not-that is addressed in point (a) above. But I don’t think there should be a salary cap. I don’t find, for example, the NFL any better now than it was before the cap-if anything I think it is a bit worse. There have been a lot of great arguments against the cap in baseball that I won’t go into, but if you are interested, Posnanski has a great one.
by Buzzy on Oct 26, 2009 10:06 AM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
It wasn't an arbitrary number
it was set in the same rough ballpark that other sports have set theirs, and is rapidly becoming the median baseball payroll cost anyway. Sure, a Marlins fan could say it SHOULD be $25 million, but the numbers obviously don’t bare that out.
I’ve read Posnanski’s self-serving bullshit before though, thanks.
by Caseys Kiss of Death on Oct 26, 2009 10:37 AM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
I personally don't mind that the Yankees spend a gazillion dollars
I wish that we could. I wish that we weren’t outspent for Tex and CC. But we were and makes no sense crying over spilled milk. The payroll is NO guarantee of a championship or even a playoff spot.
The Yankees are a great team and they beat us. Oh well, that’s baseball.
But folks, all the money in the world cannot beat father time. Derek, Alex, Jorge, and Mariano are all getting older and other than CC and Tex (who I don’t put in the same class as Jeter and ARod despite his salary), their young players are not superstar caliber. Free agents like Bay and Holliday will not replace, but only compliment. Unless they come up with some youth like they did in the mid-90s. This dynasty is creaky and coming back to earth fast.
I must not fear. Fear is the mind-killer.
by Moondoggy on Oct 26, 2009 6:25 AM PDT reply actions 0 recs
Moondoggy
You oare right about age and depth in the farm system. There is a lot to worth with down there, but nothing of Super-Star quality, nothing shown of yet that is.
Pitching is probably further along than anything. Montero © and Jackson (CF) have the most potential for every day players. Montero has a good bat, but Cervelli played well when Posada and Molina went down.
I have this conversation with my friends all the time. The Yanks have been winning since the mid 90’s because of the talent they brought up, not the talent they have acquired. With Jeter, Poada, Pettitte, Rivera, Bernie Williams, those teams would not have won all those championships. CC is probably the biggest piece they have added that has actually produced. Alex did nothing in the playoffs until this year, and Tex has disappeared. It has been those core guys and CC that has carried them.
People can talk of all the money they spend, and obviously it does help, but you can not build a winner by using free agents, you can only add to it. Unless the Yanks start spending time and energies in developing talent) like they did in the early 90’s) they will fall.
by imike29 on Oct 26, 2009 7:56 AM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
Yes
interestingly, the Yankees dynasty of 1996-2000 was not built with nearly the payroll gap that the team has now. The Yankees were a high payroll team then, but not always the top, and when they were on top it was not by much. Now they gap over the Mets (number 2 in payroll) is 38 percent of the entire Mets payroll and about equal to the Payroll of the Rays and Marlins. It indeed shows that you cannot just spend your way to repeated success.
And yes, they Yankees have key players that are old. One of the interesting things about the Yankee success this year is that aside from one injury (Wang) essentially everything broke right. By that, I mean that Swisher and Cano had near career years (in the case of Cano it is probably what should be expected), while the older players (with the exception of Arod who still had a very strong year and was coming off of surgery in March) way overperformed expectations. Pettitte, Matsui, Damon and Jeter all looked to be either breaking down or rapidly declining at the end of 08. Rivera, Posada, and Matsui were all coming of surgery. Posada is the weirdest case-a 38 year old catcher coming off of serious shoulder surgery. I doubt there has ever been, in the history of baseball, a full time catcher whose best offensive numbers occured from 34-38. It will be interesting to see how long all of that continues.
by Buzzy on Oct 26, 2009 8:14 AM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
Another tool!
Lets see… you were held to 2 runs by Andy Pettitte, Joba and Mo… ALL YANKEES! Came up through the system, and outside of Andy leaving for a few years, ALL YANKEES!
Our starting line-up consisted of 4 players brought up through the Yank’s farm: Jeter, Posada, Cano, Cabrera. Those 4 players went 2-11, scored 3 runs and walked 5 times.
Your two runs were driven in by Vlad and Abreu. I forgot those two were high draft picks of the Angels. Oliver got you out of a big bases loaded 1 out jam, another great draft pick he was too!
Please, before you post foolishness, trying looking at your team, in the most important game of the year for you, your 2-3-4 hitters are all there due to other teams “tireless scouting efforts to harvest the finest talents in the world.”
Tool!
Wal-Mart Angels of Anaheim!
by imike29 on Oct 26, 2009 7:21 AM PDT reply actions 0 recs
you're an idiot
If you think that Cano and Cabrerra are in the same class as those players who came up during the 90s, you know crap about baseball. Cano is serviceable when he doesn’t have his head up his ass. Cabrerra is a fourth outfielder on most teams. Jeter is 35 and no longer an adequate fielding SS; Posada is 38 and makes our catchers look like Yadier Molina; Alex is 34 and has already had hip surgery and is due for another round; Pettite is 37 and is a FA anyway; Mariano, while still great is 39 and sooner or later he’ll have his number retired (oh that’s right…it’s already retired) look forward to the adventure of Joba as your closer; Damon and Matsui are gone.
CC and Tex are very good. CC may even be great, time will tell. But AJ is a head case, Chamberlain is shot, Gaudin? Wang? Please. Enjoy this run, it may not happen again like this for a long time.
I must not fear. Fear is the mind-killer.
by Moondoggy on Oct 26, 2009 7:48 AM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
actually...I'm the idiot
I thought you were responding to my post and you obviously were not. In fact I agree with most of your post and I have no problem with spending money on FA at all. I take it all back.
I must not fear. Fear is the mind-killer.
by Moondoggy on Oct 26, 2009 7:51 AM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
I was responding to the original post.....
As for me being an idiot, my wife would probably agree with you.
by imike29 on Oct 26, 2009 7:59 AM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
Why take it back?
Regardless of what you think of free agency spending (and it’s wholly indefensible at the level the Yankees do it, IMO), the guy was actually trying to make the case that our team is as ‘free agency built’ as his own, so my argument is moot. Any baseball fan who knows a goddamn first thing about the sport knows that that’s stupid beyond words. There’s no comparison of our rosters to be had. None. At all.
by Caseys Kiss of Death on Oct 26, 2009 9:58 AM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
Why do you say that?
I am no fan of the Yankees, and I do think their spending is out of control, but I don’t understand how you can say that there are not objective comparisons. By my count, the only guys on the Angels squad that were drafted by the Angels are Mathis, Napoli, Kendrick, Weaver, Saunders, Lackey, Jepsen. That is not a whole lot-it is great in the starting pitching, but that’s it. For the Yankees, it is Jeter, Posada, Hughes, Chamberlain, Gardner and a bunch of spare parts in the pen. As for IFAs, you have guys like Itzuris, Aybar, Morales, Santana, Escobar, while they have guys like Cano, Cabrera, Wang. So you have more IFAs actually. You can make the argument that you have a bit more drafted home grown talent (true), or that the best of the Yankee drafted home grown talent was drafted a while ago (true), or that your free angents cost less (true), but as for the absolute comparison of drafted home grown/IFA home grown/FA, by percentage it really is not so different.
by Buzzy on Oct 26, 2009 10:23 AM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
It's not a product of strict numbers
that’s a TERRIBLE method.
The bulk of the Angels’ most significant contributions (all of its starting pitching) is through its talent evaluation systems (which would include guys like Morales and Santana, who were scouted out of other leagues, but include guys like Wang and Cano for them). The bulk of the Yankees’ most significant contributions are from free agent signings. It’s not strict numbers, and it’s not strict money. It’s the matter of the fact that the Yankees most glaring holes are glossed over entirely with free agent spending. You can’t just say "you have ‘x’ free agents, and they have ‘x+1’ so you’re similar.’ Because more of our ‘integral running pieces’ are all scouted and/or drafted by the franchise. The MOST integral pieces they had were all directly from other teams. A-Rod, Teixeira, Swisher, Damon, and Matsui. All combined for over 150 home runs this year…almost the same total the Angels had period. All from somewhere else. Their #1 and #2 starters. Someone else’s. Just under half of all Yankee pitching starts are made by someone else’s prospects. Just under 80% of Angels starts were made by our own men (Santana, Lackey, Weaver, Saunders, Ortega, O’Sullivan, etc.) So yes, we find parts lying around the league to snatch up, with the occasional big ticket (Hunter, Abreu, Guerrero) to also sign. The Yankees, on the flip side, make the cornerstone of their pennant runs the free agent market. Hell, they signed as many big-ticket names this OFFSEASON as we really have on our entire team.
by Caseys Kiss of Death on Oct 26, 2009 10:35 AM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
Sorry
so you are saying Jeter, Posada, Pettitte (all drafted) are smaller contributors to the Yankees success than (fill in your top 3 Angels)? The most valuable position players for the Angels this year were Hunter, Figgins, Abreu and Morales. Not a single one was drafted. And you forget the very important fact that the Angels have a big advantage in IFA signings players from Cuba and Latin America. For example, they have the money and they are in California. I think you have no idea how much money this takes. Please name a single other team in baseball that has nearly as many IFAs as the Angels. The F and the A stand for “free agent.”
As I said, Lackey, Saunders and Weaver were all drafted. Santana was not. When Lackey walks, and you have as many starters next year in your rotation as the Yankees do (or fewer), and clearly less coming from drafted position players, what will you say then? As I said, the top Yankees guys that came up through their system are clearly more valuable than those that come up through yours. If you want to add it up by WAR I would be happy to do so. And the comment about the Yankee dynasty buing built by FAs is silly. Were Jeter, Posada, Rivera, Williams, Pettitte,Soriano, Hernandez…big FA signings?
by Buzzy on Oct 26, 2009 11:00 AM PDT up reply actions 1 recs
Soriano was
Yes he was a huge IFA signing
Willie Mays Aikens is FREeeeeeeee
by Angel Aviator on Oct 26, 2009 11:27 AM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
Indeed
and so was Kendry. Not quite as big, but big. Few teams could risk a 3 million/6 year deal for a Cuban defector when little was and still is known about the quality of the Cuba league and players.
by Buzzy on Oct 26, 2009 12:37 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
I just remember
being called to go see him in a workout in SoCal then seeing him play AZ Fall ball that fall.
Everyone believed that Kendry would hit. Big question was were did you hide him. Same sort of thing with Soriano. Hell he thought he was a SS
Willie Mays Aikens is FREeeeeeeee
by Angel Aviator on Oct 26, 2009 8:50 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
Yeah, that's fair
count Pettitte toward your Yankee list, and then only allow me to name off POSITION players for the Angels?
Why do you keep mentioning the draft? Why is that the cut off? Talent scouting in foreign leagues is relevant to a team’s structural integrity outside the ‘scope of money.’ The draft is otherwise, likewise tainted, by the signing bonus aspect. I see a huge difference between signing 21 year old foreign commodities with no track record and signing $160 million veteran aces. Hell, I see a huge difference between signing Morales and an established Japanese league veteran.
I don’t know where you’re getting off, but no one in their right mind would agree with you here. You’re better off arguing that money spending is just a part of the game. Because as is, the crux of your argument is that the Yankees franchise has 3 35+ year old guys (one of whom left for several years and re-signed as a FA) who still contribute, and that puts them on par with a team whose rotation if 4/5ths from their farm system, whose ENTIRE INFIELD is from their farm, or never played for another major league team, and whose bullpen, other than 2 guys, is entirely farm.
The Yankees 2 best starting pitchers, their #5 pitcher, their all-star 1B, 3B, and entire outfield are all free agent signings or pro-level trades.
But if you really want to say that your team is on equal internal construction footing with the Angels, be my fucking insane guest. 3 home grown guys drafted when I was in elementary school. Your offense produced 881runs this year. 60.1% of those were driven in by free agent signings or pro-level trades (meaning the player was already in the majors). Our offense drove in a fairly comparable 841 runs. 33.2% of those were driven in by free agent signings or pro-level trades. By percentage, nearly fucking half. I draw a distinction between trading at the pro-level because I think one speaks much more strongly to how well a team can scout and develop. Nothing more sinister.
On a team where a major league RECORD was established for most players with 50+ RBIs on a team, I don’t know how you can so confidently sit back and think you can choose 3 random guys that you single out as having ‘contributed’ the most. But sure, if you want to talk in raw numbers of “we have ‘x’ free agents” and you have “x-1,” so we’re the same, feel free. But it’s total bullshit. The production received and dollars spent on your primary acquisitions far exceeds that of our own. And that you count Kendry Morales, a 21 year old nobody out of Cuba, in the same ‘signing big free agents’ as grabbing A-Rod speaks volumes to your disingenuous. Feel free to respond so I can just ignore it.
And no one fucking said “and the comment about the Yankee dynasty buing built by FAs is silly.”, so whatever delusions you’re operating under can be put to rest now.
by Caseys Kiss of Death on Oct 26, 2009 10:55 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
Guy
who are you talking to? Did you read what I even wrote? I am NOT a Yankee fan. You want to argue that your team has more home grown talent that my team has produced in this decade? Be my guest. You will be wrong again. You really know nothing about baseball.
The Angels do NOT have a ton lot of home grown talent. The sum of “wins” (in WAR) produced by Figgins+Aybar+Kendrick+Morales+Napoli+Mathis+Itzuris
+Lackey+Saunders+Santana+Weaver+Jepsen=37.5.
The same number for the Yankees (Cano+Jeter+Posada+Rivera+Cabrera+Gardner+Hughes
+Pettitte+Chamberlain+Coke+Aceves+Robertson)=30.4
That is hardly a night and day difference. Maybe next you will argue that “WAR is a bullshit stat” or something stupid like that. So whatever delusions you’re operating under can be put to rest now.
by Buzzy on Oct 27, 2009 7:07 AM PDT up reply actions 1 recs
Dont disagree with you
but thats how life is isnt it? The guy with the money gets to buy the more expensive property. I have no issue with this. Just means that you (Angels) have to spend wisely. If not then the thing crumbles. Angels have done this and they did that very well in 2002. The thing with 2002 is the players showed up. The high paid players played like that while some played up. This year as has been the case with others the players that needed to play active roles in the teams wins didn’t
Willie Mays Aikens is FREeeeeeeee
by Angel Aviator on Oct 26, 2009 11:34 AM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
If this were free market capitalism, I would agree
but that is not, and should not be, what baseball strives to be. It’s a competitive sport…a venture in which it is in the best interest as a whole to see internal competitiveness, with unfathomable advantages capped in order to preserve the competitive balances. The Yankees will have, and have always had, money, through little virtue of their own other than having an older franchise than 85% of the league and living in the largest media market, allowing for the greatest exposure. They won a ton when they were ‘the team’ to be with, playing against 8-10 other teams. Not to take anything away from them, but their monetary success today has little ‘fairness’ to it compared to what the 20 or so expansion teams are forced to overcome. This is why other sports know they should cap. It keeps the sport fair. It keeps it balanced. It offsets insurmountable advantages, because it is in everyone’s best interest that EVERYONE be able to compete.
No the Angels didn’t play well this year in the ALCS, and it’s the main reason behind why they lost (coughumpirescough). But allowing this nonsensical ‘let the team who spends the most win’ angle is just hogwash. And it’s not coincidence that the most vocal supporters of keeping things cap-free are Yankee fans looking for justifications. There needs to be one, and there needs to, perhaps as importantly, be a floor.
by Caseys Kiss of Death on Oct 26, 2009 11:01 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
You are really being blind here
who has won the most in this decade? The Angels have been more successful than the Yankees in this decade, as have other teams that all spend less. And as stated before, the “strategy” of overspending to get your superstar and then signing him until he is bascally over the hill is not a great strategy. It is not a coincidence that the minute the Yankees started to do this, they became suddenly less successful. Until this year they had won a grand total of 4 playoff games since 2004! Sure they look poised to win their first WS since 2000, but the team will still have big questions next year. Aside from Cano, Swisher and CC, none of their key contributors are below 33, and most are 35+.
And no, it is not just Yankee fans that are disagreeing with you. Several Angel fans on this thread do as well. And as I said, I am a Sox fan. My team has a similar payroll to what your team has (8 million more) and the Sox have to play in the East against the Yankees. I look at that as a challenge that can be won by better FO management. Does it always succeed? No, but we have been more successful than they have. And I am also aware of my team’s advantage over other teams. Indeed, the Angels have a reasonable payroll advantage over the other teams in the West. It is ironic that you complain now when the Angels have a payroll advantage over 24 other teams, and when they are far far from a home grown team.
Salary caps do nothing by make owners richer at the expense of the players and the innovations that force smaller markets to compete better. In the NFL there have been more repeat winners and less playoff turnover since the cap was instituted than there is in baseball with no cap. The quality of the game is also worse as the “parity” in the bottom half of the league is simply another word for ineptitude. Same goes for hockey and to a lesser extent basketball. I have given 4 ways that the system can be tweeked without a cap which includes a (soft) floor. You may disagree with these things but I think they would do the little extra that would be needed to prevent what is really unfair in the whole free agent system-the loading up on big names in one year without due compensation to other teams.
by Buzzy on Oct 27, 2009 5:55 AM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
Crap...I should read these things more closely
Buzzy is a Sox fan? and I’ve been agreeing with him? That’s like waking up and finding out that in the cold sober morning that the girl you went home with is 70. I’m having a hard time getting the taste out of my mouth.
I must not fear. Fear is the mind-killer.
by Moondoggy on Oct 27, 2009 6:12 AM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
ahh that's ok.
I was open about it yesterday-and at least we both hate the Yankees ;).
by Buzzy on Oct 27, 2009 6:39 AM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
that we do
I must not fear. Fear is the mind-killer.
by Moondoggy on Oct 27, 2009 9:46 AM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
Your points about other sports are very debatable
The cap has also helped the NFL grow about a thousand fold. And basketball both before and after the cap has always been top heavy. Not many teams have titles and this is just how it always has been.
While I think the floor is a great first step, the second step is a hard cap on spending after teams step up their lackluster spending.
RIP #34
by linkbruin on Oct 27, 2009 2:10 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
Hahaha
game two was won by a steroiding 33 million dollar man, and your MVP was your 160 million dollar ace.
My definition of “tool” is actually “he who worships at the shrine of a team that asks for his money to build a stadium and then prices him out of it after it’s complete.”
Tool.
by Caseys Kiss of Death on Oct 26, 2009 9:56 AM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
LOL!
Went to old Yankee Stadium many times when I actually lived there. Florida weather has been nice and warm and I have yet to see the new stadium, and no desire to do so. As for seeing the Yanks, love when they come to Tampa and Miami, Yanks fans vastly out number the home team. Plus, I can get free Marlins’ tickets from the company I work for!
I worship my Wal-Mart Yanks on the cheap!
My definition of a tool, one that keeps talking out his @$$!
TOOL!
by imike29 on Oct 26, 2009 1:57 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
Bloggers who use the word tool, are tools!
by JaySo on Oct 26, 2009 5:26 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
stop using that word makes use sound lame.
by JaySo on Oct 26, 2009 5:26 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
TOOL!
Meat Stick!
Beef Roll!
I was posting facts to an absolutely ridiculous post! 3 home grown Yankee pitchers held your Angels to 2 runs. Your boy wants to cry about it and make a claim about FAs when you have just as many as we do! That makes him a tool. If you want to defend him, you’re one too!
by imike29 on Oct 26, 2009 5:57 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
Yanks and Steelers
Lemme guess, Florida Gators and Lakers/Celtics too?
RIP #34
by linkbruin on Oct 26, 2009 9:16 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
Linkbruin
Grew up in New England during the 70s. I hate all the Boston area teams! Apparently, I gravitated towards those teams that had the biggest rivalry with the Pats, Sox and Bruins (I do not follow basketball). So yes, I do like the Steelers, Yankees and Habs. Now, my loyalty to those teams have been steady and strong since my youth. I went through the painful 80s where all my teams were hammered, especially the Yanks and Steelers. Lived through over a quarter of a century with no Super Bowl victories (and only one appearance).
Further, I actually live 30 miles south of Gainesville and I can’t stand the gators…… I used to enjoy going to Brown Bruin games, and was pleased FAU started a football program, although it was after I attended.
Finally, my father is a huge Yankees fan. When I was born we wanted to name me Mickey Charles but my mom wanted nothing to do with that. They settled on Michael Christopher, so my initials are MCM, just like Mickey’s. I also had Yanks photos all over my room. So, you can make assumptions about me, but they would not be accurate.
Catch you later, I am enjoying all the highlights of yet another Yankees World Series game.
Start spreading the news……….
by imike29 on Nov 1, 2009 11:01 PM PST up reply actions 0 recs
I think I'm gonna be sick
I must not fear. Fear is the mind-killer.
by Moondoggy on Nov 2, 2009 8:18 AM PST up reply actions 0 recs
You picked three teams that all won in the 70s
My opinion of you has only changed slightly. At least you stuck with it I guess.
RIP #34
by linkbruin on Nov 2, 2009 1:34 PM PST up reply actions 0 recs
As if your opinion of me matters at all!
Oh, I did not pick any teams. It was not a choice I made one morning when I was a kid……. Today I decide I will forever be a Steelers fan! Is that how you became an Angels fan?
by imike29 on Nov 2, 2009 2:59 PM PST up reply actions 0 recs
I mean you jumped on bandwagons
That’s all. You just stuck with them. I’ve been an Angels fan all my life, kinda had to decide early on it was something I would always stick with because there was zero payoff to being an Angels fan in the 90s.
RIP #34
by linkbruin on Nov 3, 2009 12:44 AM PST up reply actions 0 recs
Whats funny about this post KOD
You mention how the evil empire known as the Yankees went and bought the pennant yet when you look at the Yankees team as a whole and who started per position you have just about the same thing going on.
Yankees
Jeter (Yankee Draft 92)
Posada (Yankee Draft 90)
Cano (Amateur Free Agent 2001)
Cabrera (Amateur Free Agent 2001)
Pitching staff also has 6 original Yankees
Bench has 2 original Yankees
Yankees have 14 original Yankee
Angels
Aybar (Amateur Free Agent 2002)
Kendrick (Amateur Draft 2002)
Mathis (Amateur Draft 2001)
Pitching staff has 4 original Angels
Bench has 2 Original Angels (Willits, Napoli)
Angels have 10 original Angels
Bye the way the Phillies have 7 hometown prospects total…………..
Understand I am an Angel fan but I am not going to say that the Yankees did not beat our beloved Angels. They pitched better, played better defense and hit better. Team Batting avg for the series Angels .236 / Yanks .279
Willie Mays Aikens is FREeeeeeeee
by Angel Aviator on Oct 26, 2009 11:25 AM PDT reply actions 0 recs
AA, this kind of tally is incorrect. Both here and further up in this post.
Note that you leave off Figgins. Figgy may not have been drafted by the Halos, but he was obtained through a fair trade with the Rockies. He was not purchased away from the Rockies, he was exchanged for what the Rockies must have felt was (at least) equal value.
People who bicker about roster payrolls and what was bought off the shelf versus what was cultivated from within, have to count players obtained from trades as cultivated, since those come to a club by way of fair, direct, exchange using resources that club owns and are willing to trade away.
(Caveat: Juan Rivera and Maicer Izturis were both obtained from the Washington Nationals in exchange for Jose Guillen. Guillen was signed as an FA. Therefore, I would not consider Rivera or Izturis to be cultivated talent, since they came to the Halos in exchange for a talent that was purchased in the open market. Indirectly, they were themselves resources obtained through the ‘purchase process’.)
All that said, I am very much on the fence on this one. Nobody said life has to be fair, but any sports league that wishes to exhibit competitive integrity needs to be. After all, of what value would the Yankees franchise be if the only other MLB team in existence was the Boston Red Sox?
And yet, there are no rules that mandate that the Lew Wolffs of the planet spend their revenue on players, and no rule that assures that team management will make good decisions, and no rule that players must choose offers blindly, etc. So the Yankees should not be punished because the Athletics want to go cheap, or because the Royals want to go stupid, or because Sabathia wants a career and a life in New York city versus Milwaukee, Wisconsin.
I wonder what Lackey must think about how long Sosh has left Rivera in the lineup?
by Stirrups on Oct 26, 2009 11:59 AM PDT up reply actions 1 recs
sure
but either way, it is wrong to cry about the Yankees if you are an Angels fan. The Angels are an excellent team that has an excellent developmental system. But the fact is that the Angels are a high payroll team, and a team that has a lot of non-home-grown talent. They also have a lot of IFAs (more than any team I know) which in part is due to them wisely taking advantage of their natural advantages in that market. The Red Sox had basically the same payroll as the Angels this year, and probably have higher impact recent home grown talent (Ellsbury, Pedroia, Youkilis, Lester, Papelbon, Bard, Buchholz, Lowrie) but as a Sox fan can’t complain about the Yankees, nor do I think my team is so awesomely home-grown.The Sox wanted Teixeira and lost out to the Yankees. I hate Sox fans that gripe about that-if the Sox got Teixeira it would have been by a payroll advantage that the team has over others. The Angels wanted CC and Teix too (and by the way rented Teix last year). I am sure no one here would be complaining if those 2 had just helped the Angels to the WS.
by Buzzy on Oct 26, 2009 12:48 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
I agree
I don’t think any Angel fan should be crying about the Yankees signing big $$ FAs. Hell, we’ve signed more than our share over the past 7 years. Vlade, Colon, Escobar, Guillen, Hunter, GMJ, etc. Some worked out spectacularly (MVP, Cy Young), some not so good (Jose Nut Job, Finley, HGH). And if we only had another $80MM or so, we would be the ones singing CC’s praises (Lord knows he wanted to stay out west) and raving about Tex’s D (if only we could’ve found a gigolo suitable to his wife’s tastes). Oh well, that’s baseball.
I must not fear. Fear is the mind-killer.
by Moondoggy on Oct 26, 2009 12:59 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
hey-
you live in NYC, right? Me too-I live in the Dominican enclave that is Inwood. Tough being a Yankee hater right now. I see more Yankee hats on the 1-train now than I did in June, that’s for sure!
by Buzzy on Oct 26, 2009 1:07 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
I live in Westchester County
Pleasantville actually. The true Yankee fan is a die hard no matter what the circumstances. I truly respect them. But this team has more band wagoners than any team in any sport in the world. It’s almost a fashion statement that says “I am associated with a winner and therefore, i am a winner too.”
Losers
I must not fear. Fear is the mind-killer.
by Moondoggy on Oct 26, 2009 1:26 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
As everyone here on HH knows
the Sox have plenty. Too many. The thing that is funny about the Yankee ones (I don’t see nearly as many Sox bandwagoners here of course) is that you can tell how well, to a day, the Yankees are doing by riding the train. I predicted to my wife several times while on the train that the Yankees either won or lost based on the hat count. Upon arriving home and checking the scores, I don’t think I was ever wrong…
by Buzzy on Oct 26, 2009 1:31 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
The Cowboy
Gene Autry is one that was quick to jump into the FA pool when he acquired Don Baylor, Joe Rudi and Bobby Grich way back in 1977 (start of FA spending) and it didnt work out that year but it sure helped for that wonderful season of 79 when I could for once say Angels are Division Champs. I will never have any issues with any team that spends to help make their teams better and fans happy.
Willie Mays Aikens is FREeeeeeeee
by Angel Aviator on Oct 26, 2009 8:58 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
To my point, if Tex had helped the Halos win the WS in 2008, it would not have been through raw payroll muscle.
The Halos paid a fair trade exchange for Tex, using talent drafted and developed internally. So Tex came to the Halos by way of cultivated resources. Having paid that price, the Halos sure would have liked to keep Tex. That was not to be. Some might argue that the Yankees flexed their payroll muscle and jerked him away from SoCal. Others might say that Boras and Tex merely used the Halos to drive up the Yankee price and force the Yankees to flex payroll muscle. Either way, the notion that the Halos somehow deserved to hang on to Tex or nab a CC at some below-market rate, and/or not be to the Royals as the Yankees are to the rest of us, is naive.
About your lamentations over IFA, however, I cannot agree. If the Yankees took their payroll muscle to the Carribbean, and paid smartly, they would dominate there just as predictably as anywhere else. That that have not done these things to this point is not the fault of the Angels. Perhaps, instead, it fits into some kind of Yankee methodology to scout and draft and develop as best they can, but not bet their ranch on their own prospects. If the Yankee prospects work out, fine. But every gap can be filled by the All-Stars proven and plucked from the balance of baseball. If, for example, Erick Aybar continues his meteoric rise at SS, he could hit FA just at the time that Jeter is ready to back off. The Yankees could then flex payroll muscle and pluck an IFA away from the Halo roster. The Yankees care less about WHERE their All-Stars come from, and more about WHEN. Yankee ownership of one-time IFA’s will come.
I wonder what Lackey must think about how long Sosh has left Rivera in the lineup?
by Stirrups on Oct 26, 2009 1:12 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
IFAs cost a lot more than you think
because teams need to sign a bunch of them to have one pan out. The Angels do have advantages in that market-and it is not all scouting. Several teams wanted Kendry, but they viewed it as too big a risk to throw 3 million at an unproven Cuban, just like the Tribe wanted Soriano in 1997 and were outbid by the Yankees.
But getting back on the topic of this debate-even if you include IFAs-the Angels are not so distinguished by their homegrown talent. And while I undertand that Kotchman was traded to the Braves for Teix, the Angels must have felt that they could pony up the Boras bucks for Teix or they would not have traded for him. Lastly, via a combination of these kind of arguments, I could also add Josh Beckett to the list I gave you above about “home grown” on the Sox because he was traded for Hanley Ramirez, a Sox IFA and home grown player in the Sox system. But even so it would be sort of silly for me to do that and say my team is so home-grown. They are a mix like other high-payroll teams. You are right to point out the difference in the fact that the Yankees can go for the absolute top FAs around, seemingly all the time. But you know what? The Yankees did less of that in the 90s when they were more successful. And they have not won a WS in nearly 10 years. And they have a lot of bad contracts (including CC and Teix’s contract, and the fact that ARod is signed till he is…42!) that will hurt their team going forward. It is not like it is a lock at all that this is a good way to spend.
by Buzzy on Oct 26, 2009 1:26 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
not even a lock that they'll take the WS this year
You’re right about their success in the 90’s. Truly impressive. I believe that their fortunes changed when they went away from from Stick Michael’s plan to build from within and signed Giambi.
At the time, I called it the curse of the Giambino. I actually think Giambi is a good player who was a good contributor, but it signaled a change of philosphy to sign as many all-stars as possible instead of growing from within and getting key contributors to fill roles.
I still think it’s the wrong philosophy and I think they might do well from year-to-year. But they won’t have the sustained dynasty they had from 1996-2000.
I must not fear. Fear is the mind-killer.
by Moondoggy on Oct 26, 2009 1:36 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
Yes
Giambi’s signing signaled precisly the time when the Yankee payroll started really developing a gap with all other teams. Before that, when they had the highest payroll in baseball it was by a small percentage. Some time after the 2001 WS loss, it really exploded exponentially.
by Buzzy on Oct 26, 2009 1:40 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
You SHOULD include Becky.
The Sox obtained Ramirez via a draft pick, which any other team could have done. They signed Ramirez and developed Ramirez with their own capital. And they used the summation of all that investment to make a trade package with Florida. Becky was obtained via equity, which any team could have done had they obtained and developed and packaged players as smartly.
As for the IFA market, you cannot presume that this market is capped out on MLB investments. We do not know that. So we do not know that the Angels are paying high there, much less “too high”. So we do not know that the Angels have any economic advantage, fair or unfair. Conversely, we do know that signing bonuses are still climbing significantly in the DR. For all we know, the Yankees WILL vest heavily in that market in the future, and the sums being paid now will seem paltry by comparison.
Finally, the Yankees’ “bad contracts” are only “bad” if they prove to have any drag on their ability to sign players they desire in the future. With the Yankees revenue streams, and the marketability of success, they might just be able to $pend their way right through it all.
I wonder what Lackey must think about how long Sosh has left Rivera in the lineup?
by Stirrups on Oct 26, 2009 1:55 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
I thought Manny was a FA from the Indians
another Ramirez maybe?
I must not fear. Fear is the mind-killer.
by Moondoggy on Oct 26, 2009 2:05 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
oops Hanley not Manny
I’d say I put my foot in my mouth…but it’s gone.
I must not fear. Fear is the mind-killer.
by Moondoggy on Oct 26, 2009 2:07 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
Well
I think paying premium $$ for many years of past prime performance is the very definition of bad contract. ARod is already likely on the decline (mind you-still one of the very best players in all of baseball) and they will pay him a tremendous amount of money till he is 42. This goes for several other contracts. I think they have 140 million in contract obligation for 2011 (not 2010)! And I bet they will be forced to resign Jeter to a big contract, etc. They have limits too-different from all other teams but limits. I think it is clear that this has not been a successful strategy, even if they do win the WS this year. In fact, I think it is likely they will have more trouble next year. As I mentioned above, it was very unlikely that so many old semingly gimpy players (Jeter, Damon, Posada, Pettitte, Matsui, Rivera) could have that good/healthy of seasons. How many 38 year old catchers (or any catchers for that matter) (Posada) have years like that? How many 35 year old players (Damon) match their career high in HR at 35? How guys coming off of surgery (Matsui) have their second best OPS years (and best in 5 years) at 35? How many SS have their best ever fielding years by UZR (by far) and rebound to jump by 100 OPS points at 35(Jeter)? Even so that team was only a 96 win team by Pythag and had an totally fortunate number of walk-off 1 run wins. An excellent team? Yes, but still not well constructed given all things.
by Buzzy on Oct 26, 2009 2:11 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
Oh, no disputing things there.
The Yankees have some real serious cracks showing in their ages. Rivera getting a 24 inch wide strike zone over a 17 inch wide plate may have more than a little to do with his continuing success, but even stuff like that will not last forever. Ask Greg Maddux.
I don’t see Posada, Rivera, Damon or Matsui on that roster in 2012.
What I do not know is what might happen to rules governing payroll caps and payroll taxes and stadium revenues, etc. Come 2012 things may work out just fine for the Yankees. Even if things don’t change, if the Yankees wanted to (or felt they needed to) spend another $50 mill on payroll, the money is there.
I wonder what John Lackey must think about how long Sosh left Juan Rivera in the playoff lineup?
by Stirrups on Oct 26, 2009 2:25 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
while it is never good to believe all you read
there are stong indications that they are near their limits now, and want to cut payroll. They have some big expenses and the economy is bad, even if your name is Steinbrenner.
by Buzzy on Oct 26, 2009 2:34 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
also remember
they slashed the price of those legends seats in 1/2
I must not fear. Fear is the mind-killer.
by Moondoggy on Oct 26, 2009 2:37 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
and advertising revenues everywhere
including at the YES network, are way way down I know the media advertising costs for us have plummeted. I can’t believe that we’re the only astute buyers in the market.
I must not fear. Fear is the mind-killer.
by Moondoggy on Oct 26, 2009 2:39 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
All those things are true,
but the economy in 2012 will be different than it is today. And, in the interim, when money is tight there is always a flight to quality. Revenue dollars for the Yankees will, over the long haul, stave off recession stronger than that of, say the Pittsburgh Pirates.
I wonder what John Lackey must think about how long Sosh left Juan Rivera in the playoff lineup?
by Stirrups on Oct 26, 2009 3:11 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
Damon and Matsui won't be there in 2010
I think Buzzy is right. They do have limits, just really high ones. They have a tremendous amount of revenue, but their margins are actually ordinary. They don’t have much flex. I think that if some of their bloated contracts (Giambi, etc.) didn’t drop off last year, they don’t sigh the big three this year. I think that Damon’s and Matsui’s departures are guaranteed because they need the cash to sign Bay/Holliday. St. Derek’s contract is up after 2010. The gnashing of teeth will start in the spring.
I must not fear. Fear is the mind-killer.
by Moondoggy on Oct 26, 2009 2:34 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
Not so sure about Matsui
I think (pre-ALDS) that, as a fan, Matsui was the guy who scared me more than anyone else in their lineup.
Angels baseball. We do what we must, because we can -- HaloDutch
by red floyd on Oct 26, 2009 3:53 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
It was hardly fair trade
To think it was fair trade or say it was fair trade is way off. They (Braves) got what they could knowing that Tex was a tough sign so he came in for a lot less then blue book value
Willie Mays Aikens is FREeeeeeeee
by Angel Aviator on Oct 26, 2009 9:00 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
So Atlanta is punished for their bad timing. That is fair.
Timing is an important factor in determining return value. You would agree that Toronto will not get as much for Halladay next season as they could have gotten this past season, yes? Failure to make a trade this year is a function of over-reaching on Toronto’s part. If they now lose Halladay and get nothing back but draft picks, they have only themselves to blame. That is not an unfair result.
In Tex’s case, Atlanta went into the relationship with Tex eyes wide open. They knew what his contract status was in 2007. They knew what it would be in 2008. Nobody forced them to trade FOR Tex, and nobody forced them to trade Tex in his walk year. So they got what they could get when they could get it. Nothing unfair about that. That you and I might feel that Atlanta got screwed because the transactions were not weighted equally, merely indicates that we see Atlanta as screwing themselves.
I wonder what John Lackey must think about how long Sosh left Juan Rivera in the playoff lineup?
by Stirrups on Oct 27, 2009 7:35 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
I know how I see the trade
Bottom line is if you were picking a team and the choices were all those that were involved in the trade you wouldn’t have chosen Kotch over Tex. The point I was making was in response to you saying that it was a fair trade.
When you make the comment about the timing of the trade and what took place leading up to the trade sure they got what they thought they could get thinking it would be better then some unknown commodity via the draft. I don’t disagree but the Angels did not have to give up the future/face of the franchise to aquire that impact bat in what might go down as one of the biggest trades in Angel history next to Nolan Ryan
Willie Mays Aikens is FREeeeeeeee
by Angel Aviator on Oct 27, 2009 11:07 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
Stop your crying
You’re making us all look bad. We owned the Yanks for the better part of a decade, they finally manage to edge us out and all you can do is whine about their payroll? Everyone here already made enough counterpoints to your ridiculous premise and all you do is keep harping on the same silly points that support your argument. I know you’re an emotional sort but you have to get real here. The Yanks massive payroll did not cause us to make stupid errors, nor did it make Kazmir (a product of OUR ability to absorb payroll) look like a deer in headlights, nor did it make Fuentes (another guy no one wanted to offer that much money to) throw a fatty fat pitch to Rodriguez when a win was right there. We played like shit and lost. It happens. I’m not arguing that what the Yankees do as far as payroll is fair, but Angel fans really have no place using that as a crutch.
by dmhead on Oct 27, 2009 11:42 AM PDT reply actions 1 recs
AGREE
Willie Mays Aikens is FREeeeeeeee
by Angel Aviator on Oct 27, 2009 11:09 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
DISAGREE
We lost yes. But there is a bigger problem with baseball, and the Yankees are part of it.
RIP #34
by linkbruin on Oct 27, 2009 11:50 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
so are we
I must not fear. Fear is the mind-killer.
by Moondoggy on Oct 28, 2009 4:17 AM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
I'm not disagreeing with you
This more comes from the top though.
RIP #34
by linkbruin on Oct 28, 2009 1:46 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
sorry
but once again all a cap will accomplish is taking money out of the player’s hands and giving it right back to the owners. But I guess that’s one of those ethical debates that really has no right answer. In my mind part of what makes baseball great is the narrative. The Yankees as the Evil Empire is a huge part of that. When teams like the Twins, Marlins, Rays, and OK, even the A’s can overcome their smaller payrolls to beat those large market teams, its exciting. Salary caps have really done nothing to help parity in the other sports. Its still the best-run organizations that are the most successful.
by dmhead on Oct 28, 2009 10:04 AM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
The NFL I would at least argue has more parity
And their league has grown ten-fold since cap institution. But there’s also a lot of unguaranteed and voided contracts. There’s a better solution than a simple cap or floor.
RIP #34
by linkbruin on Oct 28, 2009 1:45 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
more parity
There are the great teams (Colts, Saints, Denver) and the really really bad teams (Lions, Rams, Tampa) I think baseball has more parity.
Aybar is a nowhere man, Sitting in his Nowhere Land, Making all his nowhere plans for nobody.
by princeton11loveshalos on Oct 29, 2009 3:20 AM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
I mean two of those 3 teams you listed didn't make the playoffs last year
That’s semi-indicative of more parity.
RIP #34
by linkbruin on Oct 29, 2009 3:46 AM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
but the bad are still bad
Lions, Rams, Raiders, Chiefs
all 4 of those teams have been bad in the last 3 years
Aybar is a nowhere man, Sitting in his Nowhere Land, Making all his nowhere plans for nobody.
by princeton11loveshalos on Oct 29, 2009 1:09 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
Two of those teams made a super bowl this decade
I think there’s a lot more turnover in nfl playoffs vs. mlb playoffs. Just me there.
RIP #34
by linkbruin on Oct 29, 2009 1:28 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
Last years Yankee payroll
was higher and they didn’t even make the playoffs. They got rid of some bad contracts like Carl Pavano and Giambi. I think they are something like 8M less this year then last. So its not always the team with the highest payroll that wins. Just go check out the Cubs and NY Mets. Those 2 teams had the second and third highest payrolls this season and they didn’t make the post season.
Willie Mays Aikens is FREeeeeeeee
by Angel Aviator on Oct 28, 2009 10:34 AM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
I agree with both of you.
Furthermore, people really do overreact to this kind of thing. No one really even knows if the signings the Yankees made are good ones, regardless of this year’s success (or failure in the end). These are long contracts for a lot of money. We will know at the end of the time. Perhaps Cash Cow blows his knees out next year, and is signed for 5 more years at a back end loaded 26 Million a year. It is not like these things are obvious chips of success; they come with huge risk.
Regardless of this year, the Yankees have not won a world series in this ordinal millennium, despite gapping the next highest team in payroll every year since 2002. In the 90’s, when they won 3 (or 4 depending on how you count) series they never once gapped the teams just below them. As for a fix, as I have said a cap is a bad idea. As soon as you fix the compensation aspects of free agency I think you fix whatever problem there is. If teams like the Yankees, Mets, or Red Sox can only sign a limited number of type-A FAs over a limited span and only if they have 1st round picks to give in compensation in that span, then all teams, including the Yankees, will have to be much more strategic about how,who and when they drop the big bucks. That will make things much more interesting, regardless of the fact that the Yankess will still be able to outbid other teams on their targets. Even so, consider that Sabathia, Teixeira and Burnett all came on the market the same time (2008 had a rare boon of type-A’s) just when the Yankees needed pitching and a 1b. Even without the kind of rule adjustment that I would be in favor of, that is not typical.
by Buzzy on Oct 28, 2009 11:00 AM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
My issue with all of this
is not necessarily a cap or a floor. It’s just that the Yankees completely dictate how the free agent market shakes out. That’s not right.
And I think there’s a bigger problem in our country when the Yankees spend half a billion on free agents, and then turn around and ask their city for the same amount to help finance their stadium which most of the citizens of NY couldn’t afford to sit in anyways. That’s a larger corporation to government relationship, and that problem doesn’t sit well with me and is indicative of other economic problems in the US economy.
RIP #34
by linkbruin on Oct 28, 2009 1:43 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
I agree about the stadium.
And it is not just the issue of prices, it is the fact that an under the table deal was struck between the Yankees ownership and Bloomberg with regard to taxes and financing. That is why I will not vote for him. But the Yankees spent this way before the new stadium too. I just don’t mind their dictating of the free agent market because in the end large, uber-inflated free agent contracts are rarely a truely winning strategy for a team.
by Buzzy on Oct 28, 2009 4:36 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
linkbruin is 100% correct.
That’s what bothers the hell out of me, the skanks set the market and price of any FA’s out there, they then spend more than any other club possibly could, to obtain said FA’s to the tune of half a billion dollars, and then goes to the state and city of New York for money, to build a stadium for the Steinbrenners, who in turn pocket the profits.
YOU DON'T KNOW THE POWER OF THE DARKSIDE.....
by halofolife on Oct 29, 2009 11:17 AM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
I said I would
I would like to congratulate the Angels on a hard fought series. While you obviously don’t feel the same way, if the Angels came out on top I would have rooted for them to beat the Phillies.
You guys are good fans for your team, see you next year.
by DocBooch on Oct 29, 2009 9:27 AM PDT reply actions 0 recs
This is a great thread.
Love the back and forth as well as the rationales for each side. CaseysKOD, great job on bringing forth a touchy subject.
by Christhammer on Oct 29, 2009 11:50 AM PDT reply actions 0 recs

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