Did the Angels really go with the best possible rotation?

by K-MO on Oct 6, 2009 4:54 PM PDT Comment 72 comments

I know most will probably disagree but I really feel that the rotation of Kazmir, Weaver, Lackey and Saunders or if your down 2 games to 1 you bring back Kazmir for game 4 would've beent he best one but we'll have to wait and see how it plays out now. Kaz has been the best starter the last month while Lackey has been getting beaten up and don't forget about Lackey's almost no-hitter at Fenway.

This Fan-Post is authored by an independent fan. Tell us what you think and how you feel.

0 recs | Comment 72 comments

Story-email Email Printer Print

Comments

i actually agree that our rotation is a little out of whack

i don’t the idea of:
1) lackey pitching in a play-off game against boston
2) lackey pitching in any highly charged emotional game with him in a leadership position. he will turn into the hulk and snap before the 5th inning. i don’t think his tantrums make him play any better and his emotion detracts from his skills. (i know we started game 7 as a rookie but at that point of his career he had his emotions in check)
3) starting two lefties in boston with the green monster a stones throw from the dish
in my humble opinion the rotation should be:
kazmir-lackey-weaver-saunders or kazmir-weaver-lackey-saunders

by thejd on Oct 6, 2009 5:27 PM PDT reply actions 0 recs

Lefties in Fenway

aint so bad. It’s even easier to hit it out wrapping a HR around the Pesky Pole. At least we’re minimizing the chances of that with lefty vs. lefty matchups like Ortiz.

This season is my best chance to get called out of the stands to pitch.

by Rally Manatee on Oct 7, 2009 10:14 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs

Good to know I'm not the only one who thinks that then

by K-MO on Oct 6, 2009 5:50 PM PDT reply actions 0 recs

wow!!!! and i dont mean to offend the two of you... but this is the dumbest post i have ever read

Lackey is a stud….and don’t even need to show any examples…its a fact

by surfpunk on Oct 6, 2009 6:09 PM PDT reply actions 0 recs

Lackey

Hasn’t won a playoff game since Game 7 of the 02 WS. He has a point.

by HungryHunter on Oct 6, 2009 6:21 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs

Lackey

HAS GIVEN UP 2 RUNS OR FEWER IN HIS LAST THREE PLAYOFF STARTS.

That he hasn’t won those starts means NOTHING.

RIP Nick Adenhart.

"When the Babe tries to call his shot, I hope Nick puts one in his ear."
--RallyMonkey5

by Clutch on Oct 6, 2009 6:31 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs

He pitched well

but we didn’t win the games. Or maybe that means NOTHING too?

by HungryHunter on Oct 6, 2009 6:36 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs

how is that

lackey’s fault?

World Series '09 - In Memory of #34 Nick Adenhart!

by b0rd3rline on Oct 6, 2009 6:57 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs

I didn't realize he was batting

Play Wood already. Willits sucks.

by hauldog on Oct 6, 2009 6:58 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs

You're one of those guys who believes Matt Palmer is our best starting pitcher right?

W-L is not a good indicator for pitchers

RIP #34

by linkbruin on Oct 6, 2009 7:02 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs

dude if our offense could have scored more than two runs

he would have won

Aybar is a nowhere man, Sitting in his Nowhere Land, Making all his nowhere plans for nobody.

by princeton11loveshalos on Oct 6, 2009 7:56 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs

Upon further review

He allowed 2 runs in his last two playoff starts (in 2008) but 4 in the game before that in 07 (allowing 2 HR in 6 innings). His last playoff game before that, in 2005, he allowed 5 ER in 5 innings.

As far as all these arguments about the lack of hitting. Sure, guys have to hit but great pitchers find a way to win even when the offense isn’t scoring many runs.

by HungryHunter on Oct 6, 2009 8:14 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs

No they don't

Great pitchers keep their team IN the game, giving their team a chance to win. Lackey has done that.

R.I.P. King Ad-Rock #34

by Seik1177 on Oct 6, 2009 8:52 PM PDT up reply actions 1 recs

Um, you don't actually expect pitchers to go 9 IP with 27 K's and 0 R every game do you?

Oh wait, Weaver almost did that in 2008—6 IP 0 H—and STILL lost. Guess he’s just a shitty pitcher!

RIP Nick Adenhart.

"When the Babe tries to call his shot, I hope Nick puts one in his ear."
--RallyMonkey5

by Clutch on Oct 6, 2009 11:20 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs

I guess this is your response

to putting up incorrect stats.

by HungryHunter on Oct 6, 2009 11:40 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs

Wow, such an intelligent fact-based response

Oh I’m sorry. I said three when I should have said two. Wow.

Let’s see.

Over 58 IP in the postseason, Lackey has given up a total of 22 ER. 4 ER in each of the last two postseasons, in which he made three starts. That’s a 3.75 ERA over 2007 and 2008. Hmm. Somehow not seeing that as too shabby.

In his first start of the 2008 postseason, Lackey’s only mistake was one two-run home run to Jason Bay. That’s it. Nothing else. That the Halos couldn’t score two effing runs behind him is not his fault.

In his second start of the 2008 postseason, Lackey gave up another grand total of two runs. This time the Halos managed to come back and score two measly little runs. That Erick Aybar couldn’t put down a simple suicide squeeze bunt is once again not Lackey’s fault.

Guess what giving up 2 runs per start did for the team last year? That’s right! It kept the Angels in the game.

You want a BAD postseason pitcher? Try Justin Speier—who came into Game 3 in 2007 when the score was within reach and promptly gave up about FIVE runs, putting the game irretrievably out of reach.

You can see all this for yourself at: http://www.baseball-reference.com/players/l/lackejo01.shtml

Anything else I managed to screw up in that analysis, oh-great-poster?

RIP Nick Adenhart.

"When the Babe tries to call his shot, I hope Nick puts one in his ear."
--RallyMonkey5

by Clutch on Oct 7, 2009 12:12 AM PDT up reply actions 0 recs

Boiled down

I merely stated that OP had a point. The fact that Lackey has a 3.75 ERA in the playoffs the past two years is not a point in favor of him being the game 1 starter. I expect a lot better than 3.75 from the staff ace.

by HungryHunter on Oct 7, 2009 8:52 AM PDT up reply actions 0 recs

I'm not Lackey's biggest fan

…but I can’t figure out what you’re whining about.

Assume Lackey has an ERA of 3.75 over the last two playoff seasons (it’s really 3.69, but whatever). That number is an extrapolation of the pitcher’s efforts over a 9-inning performance (dating back to the time when great pitchers had 20-30 complete games per season, something which makes the ERA sort of a relic of a bygone time).

If Lackey has an ERA of 3.75 for those three games in 2007 and 2008, and he averaged 6 2/3 IP/start, then he gave up fewer than 3 runs per game in those starts (2.8 runs, for those of you scoring at home).

Considering he was pitching to one of the most potent offenses in the game during those two years, this would be classified as “keeping a lid on the other team”.

Whether or not he won those games is more a function of how many runs his team scored on his behalf, and how well the bullpen handled the remaining 2 1/3 innings of the presumptive 9 inning game—both of which are out of the control of the pitcher.

Thus, saying he doesn’t deserve the #1 slot because he “[h]asn’t won a playoff game since Game 7 of the 02 WS” is about as ill-considered a reason as one would find.

For contrast, nobody seems to have a problem with Beckett getting the #2 slot even though he surrendered 18 ER over seven games in 2007 and 2008 and received a resulting ERA of 6.33.

"He's not a Rhodes Scholar to begin with''~Theo Epstein, talking about Papelbon

by George Kaplan on Oct 7, 2009 9:49 AM PDT up reply actions 1 recs

I am not the OP

I don’t know why you people get your panties in a bunch just because I say the OP has a point.

by HungryHunter on Oct 7, 2009 9:57 AM PDT up reply actions 0 recs

Because you're making an even more nonsensical and bigger federal case out of it than he was

You’ve got some kind of pathological hate-on for Lackey because he’s not Cy Freaking Young every time he goes out there—even though, oops!, he’s probably the best postseason pitcher on this Angels’ staff!

RIP Nick Adenhart.

"When the Babe tries to call his shot, I hope Nick puts one in his ear."
--RallyMonkey5

by Clutch on Oct 7, 2009 9:58 AM PDT up reply actions 0 recs

???

I hate Lackey because I have doubts about whether he should be going in game 1?

Ok ok, every Angels’ player is the best ever and Scoscia is the best manager ever!

by HungryHunter on Oct 7, 2009 1:10 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs

He's the best the Halos have to offer--as you would realize if you actually looked at the facts--What more do you want??

I’m sorry, but we didn’t trade for Roy Halladay (who also doesn’t have any wins in the postseason! Oh noez!) and we don’t have any of the following players on our team:

Don Drysdale
Cy Young
Sandy Koufax

Maybe you can go back in time and dig them up, but Lackey’s the best shot we’ve got. What the heck more can you possibly want?

RIP Nick Adenhart.

"When the Babe tries to call his shot, I hope Nick puts one in his ear."
--RallyMonkey5

by Clutch on Oct 7, 2009 1:19 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs

What is your problem?

I said he was the best we got before you ever posted this and I agreed that he probably should be starting game 1.

This all stems from someone posting “Lackey is a stud….and don’t even need to show any examples…its a fact”.

But then you go off with how wins mean nothing and then post erroneous stats for Lackey PROVING what a great playoff performer he is.

by HungryHunter on Oct 7, 2009 1:46 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs

You're not making any sense

You just spent your past several posts talking about what doubts you have about Lackey and how you don’t think he should be our Game 1 starter. You’ve also derided the facts that George Kaplan and I have provided and repeated over and over that a 3.75/3.69 ERA isn’t good enough and omg how could we ever start Lackey.

Now you’re doing a complete about-face and saying you’ve felt all along that he’s awesome?

Take a position and stick to it.

RIP Nick Adenhart.

"When the Babe tries to call his shot, I hope Nick puts one in his ear."
--RallyMonkey5

by Clutch on Oct 7, 2009 4:22 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs

?@#$@?$@

Are you colorblind? Do you only see in black and white? Show me one post where I said he shouldn’t be the game 1 starter. The only thing I said about his stats were that they are not ace material and are not that great. I didn’t say he was terrible and I certainly never said he was awesome. He’s a good, not great pitcher who I think is our best shot in game 1 choosing among an unspectacular group of starting pitchers who don’t have a good track record in the playoffs.

My gosh, did you actually read any of what I wrote?

by HungryHunter on Oct 7, 2009 6:43 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs

Here you go

“The fact that Lackey has a 3.75 ERA in the playoffs the past two years is not a point in favor of him being the game 1 starter. I expect a lot better than 3.75 from the staff ace.”

“He pitched well but we didn’t win the games.”

“Sure, guys have to hit but great pitchers find a way to win even when the offense isn’t scoring many runs.”

RIP Nick Adenhart.

"When the Babe tries to call his shot, I hope Nick puts one in his ear."
--RallyMonkey5

by Clutch on Oct 7, 2009 7:12 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs

You are a moron

All of those comments indicate that he pitched well but that I don’t consider him a “great” pitcher". As I said, he is a “good” pitcher and probably the best we have. Pitchers have pluses and minuses…are you really that dense?

by HungryHunter on Oct 8, 2009 8:13 AM PDT up reply actions 0 recs

I guess so

If seeing you say “I don’t trust Lackey as our Game 1 starter” and assuming that means you don’t want him to start Game 1 is dense…make up your effing mind.

RIP Nick Adenhart.

"When the Babe tries to call his shot, I hope Nick puts one in his ear."
--RallyMonkey5

by Clutch on Oct 8, 2009 11:58 AM PDT up reply actions 0 recs

Density equals mass over volume.

I love this team.

by Downing Rules on Oct 8, 2009 12:39 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs

Oh, ok

So where’s the mass and where’s the volume?

RIP Nick Adenhart.

"When the Babe tries to call his shot, I hope Nick puts one in his ear."
--RallyMonkey5

by Clutch on Oct 8, 2009 4:13 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs

I don’t trust Lackey as the game one starter. He has pitched well but not close to what I would like to see from a staff ace. But in looking at the rest of the starting pitchers, nobody is better so we go with Lackey. HE IS THE BEST OF WHAT WE HAVE.

Here’s an example of picking the best that you have:
On Saturday morning, I cook breakfast. I’m a good cook, but not certainly not great. But between the available options (my wife and myself) I am the better cook. DO YOU GET IT YET??

I don’t know if you are intentionally acting stupid or if you really are stupid but this is my last post on this.

by HungryHunter on Oct 8, 2009 3:08 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs

It's actually kind of hilarious how worked up you're getting over this

All I’m pointing out is that you made this big to do about how Lackey’s not great, doesn’t pitch well in the postseason, you don’t trust him, yadda yadda yadda…and yet we were some how supposed to divine from all that that you actually do think he’s the best we have, when in reality you never said anything of the kind until you were called on it.

So yes, I think I do get it.

RIP Nick Adenhart.

"When the Babe tries to call his shot, I hope Nick puts one in his ear."
--RallyMonkey5

by Clutch on Oct 8, 2009 4:13 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs

Also, you might not want to resort to the name-calling so quickly next time

Kind of undermines your point or its effectiveness.

RIP Nick Adenhart.

"When the Babe tries to call his shot, I hope Nick puts one in his ear."
--RallyMonkey5

by Clutch on Oct 8, 2009 4:14 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs

My mistake

I figured since you endorsed the opinion you’d have the info and the stones to back it up.

That was my error.

"He's not a Rhodes Scholar to begin with''~Theo Epstein, talking about Papelbon

by George Kaplan on Oct 7, 2009 11:54 AM PDT up reply actions 1 recs

I didn’t endorse the opinion. I actually don’t agree with the OP. All I said was that the OP had a point and that Lackey hasn’t won a playoff game since 02. He also hasn’t been what I would call ace material in the playoffs. But he is the best we’ve got and I agree that he should be starting in game 1.

by HungryHunter on Oct 7, 2009 1:18 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs

He was very good last year and in 2005 in the first round

Play Wood already. Willits sucks.

by hauldog on Oct 6, 2009 6:57 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs

Hope you're chowing down on that crow

RIP #34

by linkbruin on Oct 9, 2009 3:58 AM PDT up reply actions 0 recs

lackey has the maturity of a toddler...

and goes chernobyl when the going gets rough.

by thejd on Oct 6, 2009 6:53 PM PDT reply actions 0 recs

um you my friend are absolutely wrong

Play Wood already. Willits sucks.

by hauldog on Oct 6, 2009 6:58 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs

You apparently stopped watching a few years ago

and just started watching again when Lackey was yelling at the Rangers

R.I.P. King Ad-Rock #34

by Seik1177 on Oct 6, 2009 8:54 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs

Lackey flies flags

Case closed

by BruinHalo on Oct 6, 2009 7:03 PM PDT via mobile reply actions 3 recs

+1

RIP #34

by linkbruin on Oct 6, 2009 7:05 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs

is he an explorer? astronaut? color guard?

by thejd on Oct 6, 2009 7:05 PM PDT reply actions 0 recs

The reply button is your friend

RIP #34

by linkbruin on Oct 6, 2009 7:31 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs

his quote (which you obviously haven't heard)

Is a response to Ian Kinsler’s line “Get the F*&# off our field.” He told a reporter “We try to fly flags; we don’t talk. Let them do that. We win games.”

Aybar is a nowhere man, Sitting in his Nowhere Land, Making all his nowhere plans for nobody.

by princeton11loveshalos on Oct 6, 2009 8:01 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs

i get tired in sports when an athlete acts like they or their emotions are bigger/more important than the team. then you get announcers (on the payroll) saying how much of a gamer or competitor they are. he indulges his emotion to the point where it’s to the detriment of the team.

by thejd on Oct 6, 2009 7:10 PM PDT reply actions 0 recs

I don't see this in Lackey

He doesn’t seem to have the “I’m bigger than the team” mentality. Yeah he’s intense, but I think he’s more about his team doing well. Guys have emotion, I’d rather see it than not.

RIP #34

by linkbruin on Oct 6, 2009 7:34 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs

yea i agree with this

are you saying that lackey thinks he is better than the team. Sure he gets pissed when he receives NO RUN SUPPORT but I mean I would be pissed too. Lackey is one of my favorite angels and is a great pitcher. If the angels offense can produce he should one happy man

Aybar is a nowhere man, Sitting in his Nowhere Land, Making all his nowhere plans for nobody.

by princeton11loveshalos on Oct 6, 2009 7:59 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs

I say

Lackey, Weav, Kaz, Lackey, Kaz

RIP Nick Adenhart 4/9/09

by vlad IS my man on Oct 6, 2009 7:16 PM PDT reply actions 0 recs

Kaz going again after one game of rest?

That won’t be pretty.

by snowhor on Oct 7, 2009 2:29 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs

gahhh

meant Saundo..

RIP Nick Adenhart 4/9/09

by vlad IS my man on Oct 7, 2009 6:35 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs

Dude...

Use punctuation, spell check, and learn how to write in general. Horrible post and painful to read.

Peanuts...Get your Overpriced Peanuts!

by Angel Hawker on Oct 6, 2009 7:17 PM PDT reply actions 0 recs

Weaver is a flyball pitcher

You want him in the bigger park, with the marine layer.

by mattwelch on Oct 6, 2009 7:27 PM PDT reply actions 0 recs

Yep. Weaver needs to be in LAAoA.

RIP Nick...

Jim Scully
Jim Scully Home

by jimmuscomp on Oct 6, 2009 7:55 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs

Wait a minute

Sounds too educated of an answer for this post. Now go home, get rid of all your notes, and throw all your knowledge out the window. Then re post something anew.

Actually a very wise thought that makes sense to me.

Also getting Lackey out there to start the run will be some of the best inspiration him teammates can get.

by eyespy on Oct 6, 2009 8:02 PM PDT up reply actions 1 recs

Now if only they can score some effing runs to support him!

RIP Nick Adenhart.

"When the Babe tries to call his shot, I hope Nick puts one in his ear."
--RallyMonkey5

by Clutch on Oct 6, 2009 11:21 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs

This really isn't hard to figure out

All four pitchers have a track record at Fenway:
Lackey 2-5 5.75
Weaver 1-1 7.06
Kazmir 6-4 3.05
Saunders 3-0 2.84

I think it took Scioscia about ten seconds to figure out his rotation…

"There's nothing that cleanses your soul like getting the hell kicked out of you." - Woody Hayes

by johnnyangel101 on Oct 6, 2009 11:31 PM PDT reply actions 5 recs

Good answer

Angel Pitching, Angel Defense - get past that.

by vladtheimpaler on Oct 7, 2009 6:47 AM PDT up reply actions 0 recs

Especially since this has been widely covered for weeks

Lackey and Weaver are strong, but stronger in Anaheim than Boston. Kazmir has pitched many big games in Fenway through the years (and more games total than the other three combined), and doesn’t have a history of frustration and failure the way Lackey may.

OF COURSE it makes sense to keep Kazmir and Saunders for Boston.

"He's not a Rhodes Scholar to begin with''~Theo Epstein, talking about Papelbon

by George Kaplan on Oct 7, 2009 7:26 AM PDT up reply actions 0 recs

i've been very critical of lackey's on mound presence in this thread but...

w/that info from johnnyangel101 it is fair to use the rotation we have in place. still not a big fan of big john’s tude when pitching but oh well.

by thejd on Oct 7, 2009 10:04 AM PDT up reply actions 0 recs

I think you'd be better off saying

you don’t like Lackey’s face when pitching… something everyone could agree on

by BruinHalo on Oct 7, 2009 10:06 AM PDT up reply actions 0 recs

A post that makes sense

Thank you. I thought this entire thread was going to be a waste. Our rotation is clearly as it should be. Enough with the griping. Let’s just cheer them to victory.

by Brody on Oct 7, 2009 10:44 AM PDT up reply actions 1 recs

Absolutely

I was going to post this earlier johnny but the site wouldn’t let me log on. I am glad you took the time to write it all down. Lackey and Weaver are awful in fenway where as Saunders and Kazmir pitch quite well there. I think the decision was rather easy and was the correct one.

I know alot of people are worried about Lackey but he is still our go to guy. You don’t skip him to pitch someone else because of his past few starts. If we are going to win this series we need Lackey to step up and if he can find a way to do so in game one that will give us a much bigger lift than we have had in any series against the red sox in well forever.

Beat the Red Sox, enough said

by nscfsu on Oct 7, 2009 11:31 AM PDT up reply actions 0 recs

actually i'm an animal lover so lackey's horse face is

a little endearing to me.

by thejd on Oct 7, 2009 10:35 AM PDT reply actions 0 recs

You have to give Lackey the ball in game 1

Reasons:
1. He’s the Angels best pitcher (yes, Kazmir was great after we picked him up, but look a little bit farther back than that)
2. You want to Angels best pitcher to pitch twice in the series
3. John’s emotions would probably affect him even worse if he wasn’t given the nod as the go-to guy
4. John’s poor track record in Fenway vs Kazmir’s great record in Fenway

I could go on.

I feel the need, the need...for speed!

by Gorbachav5 on Oct 7, 2009 11:31 AM PDT reply actions 0 recs

And then you need Weaver to pitch in Anaheim Stadium

Extreme fly ball pitchers in fenway = Baby Jesus crying

I feel the need, the need...for speed!

by Gorbachav5 on Oct 7, 2009 11:32 AM PDT up reply actions 0 recs

All eyes on John

It appears to me that the Angels staff looks to John as their leader. I think all the guys on that pitching staff expect John to be the lead dog. Even if us fans might have some reservations (myself NOT included), they have the uttmost confidence in the guy. He’s their leader. He has to be the #1 guy.

by True Grich on Oct 7, 2009 12:50 PM PDT reply actions 0 recs

With this rotation

Kazmir will get more starts in the ALCS I think.
If John is ever going to put up a dominating performance, now is the time.
Contract year, big mouth, beautiful mole, and quiet speculation that he isn’t the best pitcher on the team.

TIME TO PUT UP THE ZEROES JOHN
IF YOU HAVE A LEAD, KEEP IT!

ROBOTS!

by Quinlan's Goofy Swing on Oct 7, 2009 1:31 PM PDT reply actions 0 recs