Last Thoughts on the Winter Meetings
by Rev Halofan on Dec 11, 2009 2:22 AM PST
in Angels News
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PrintAfter a decade of Bill Stoneman's Stonewalling, Angels General Manger Tony Reagins sure leaks to the press like a politician instead of a Ninja.
So what office is Tony running for? Wouldja believe Mayor of Lackeyville? Could all of the leaks of his meetings with Toronto be designed to light a fire under John Lackey to deal with the Angels?
Roy Halladay coming to Anaheim pretty much spells the end of the John Lackey era in L.A. of A, that is a fact. Does John's agent pick up the phone to get John back into Angel red faster when a truer ace is in the pipeline? With one suitor down he has less to deal with.
Meanwhile Toronto is taking its sweet time because it really doesn't want to deal Halladay to the Yankees or Red Sox unless it can put a dent in one or the other thru prospect extraction. Wouldn't you be stretching things out and allowing leaks to get other clubs to join the fray? Look, here come the Phillies, it looks like it worked!
The winter meetings are in the rear view mirror but they managed to garner enough headlines to put a Halo on Lackey and gave everyone else the chance to tell Vlad that he cannot get a job in their outfield or for more than one year. The Angels will sign Lackey before the new year so that he can get a fat signing bonus on this year's income statement and will ink Vlad to a one-year deal before February.
The only question then will be Darren Oliver, having basically spent the winter replacing Chone Figgins with Brandon Wood. Mission Accomplished?
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This quote today in the LA Times by Tony Reagins to Mike GioVanna after the winter meetings
was interesting. Maybe we will have something resolved by Christmas.
“I had a lot of discussions that were good, and we have a better idea of where certain opportunities are and how they’re going to progress,” Reagins said. “The next 10 days or so should be interesting . . . and busy.”
http://www.latimes.com/sports/la-sp-angels11-2009dec11,0,6508562.story
The 2009 Pregame Picks Winner and Iron Man of Halos Heaven.com
We call him "Ninja" for a reason...
Based on results to date, I do trust and believe in the front-office. However, the only aspect of the article that bothers me is the comments from Ninja on being “good enough” to win the division. I understand that to win a championship the team must first win the division. The reality is that building a team to win the World Series also means that the team is built to win the division and league championship as well.
Arte, Ninja: focus on taking the actions necessary to build the team to win the World Series.
by mustard_man on Dec 11, 2009 5:35 AM PST reply actions 1 recs
nope
don’t need to win a division to win it all – just look at 2002 ;-)
by Halos in DE on Dec 11, 2009 10:38 AM PST up reply actions
I hear what you're saying...
But I disagree. The Angels goal should be to put a team together to win the division. I’ve had lengthy discussions on here with folks regarding the playoffs being viewed as a crap shoot. The hottest team will win it all. Damon, A-Rod, Jeter, Matsui,and CC were all on absolute fire throughout the entire playoffs.
The Angels hit a skid at the most inopportune time. Figgins, Napoli, Abreu, and Morales all hit under .200 for the 2009 ALCS. Rivera hit .200. Our team batting average was .236. We hit .258 against Boston and swept them. In my opinion, Boston had a better pitching staff than the Yanks. Imagine if Fuentes doesn’t give up the jack to A-Rod in game 2. We won 2 of 3 in Anaheim. So winning one of two in NYY, game six or seven doesn’t seem like long shots to me.
In short, I’d rather build for the division because you play 162 games to earn that. In the playoffs, it’s best of 5 and 7. If I had it my way, I’d trade for Halladay giving up Saunders, Napoli (I read they want him over Aybar), and Bourjos. For good measure, add one of your 3rd to 5th best pitching prospect in the minors. And then sign Lackey. It’ll be pricey and make sure you get the extension done for Halladay prior to finalizing the deal.That’s a pretty nasty 1 -4, Halladay, Lackey, Weaver, and Kazmir with Santana coming out of the bullpen. For the playoffs, you need that nasty 1-2 punch. Seattle has gotten better and their not done. Texas has improved a lot. Lowell and Harden. What if they are able to sign Sheets too? We could be in for a tight race… just for the division.
sure but winning the division almost all decade hasn't gotten us to WS
This division is almost a given. You are talking about Alex Rodriguez, Derek Jeter, Matsui, CC, and Damon. I think that there is a good reason that they are on fire. Maybe it’s because they are some of the biggest names in baseball?
If we know that we can take the division why are we not gonna take every edge possible?
Agree with RedAces
Winning the Division means nothing if you lose in the playoffs. That is what this organization has evolved into. 20 years ago we wouldn’t be saying that , but today we do !
Also, 92130 you seem to be contradicting yourself; first you say playoffs are a crapshoot and then you say “For the playoffs you need that nasty 1-2 punch.” I agree with the later statement,not the prior. The best team almost always wins in the postseason. That is why you have the best of 7 games series instead of the single game elimination (well, the revenue from extra games has alot to do with it if truth be told) . Over the course of a long series the cream will rise to the top except in highly unusual circumstances. So, it is NOT just a crapshoot. I hate it when idiots like Physioc talk about how the 2002 team just got “hot at the right time.” Nothing could be more misleading. That team won 99 friggin games, was one of the top two offensive squads in baseball and had the best bullpen in the American League — that is not about "getting hot’, but rather about being GOOD ! Very good. So screw Physioc and his lame Angel-hating ass !
Despite the fact the best regular season teams usually excel in the playoffs, it is still important to have a roster that is built to excel in the postseason, this includes having a strong 1-2 punch with shut-down guys at the top of one’s rotation.
I wouldn't say contradiction but okay...
I see what you mean reading it over again. My point was getting to the post season is step 1. If you can’t win your division, it’s a tough road to the wildcard with Tampa, Boston, NY, and texas.
My 1-2 punch reference is what any fan dreams of. Giving your club the best opportunity to win. If Cole Hamels pitched the way he did in 08, this year, the world series champion may be hailing from Philadelphia.
Our division isn't guaranteed anymore...
Texas has improved. Seattle has improved. I’ve thought for a long time, if Texas ever gets some pitching to go with that offense, look out.
If we can get better at a reasonable price, yeah man, I’m all for it. I’m also trying to be realistic.
True those are all big names but it’s a possibility that Damon and Matsui won’t be back in NYY. Yes, Granderson was added but his BA has gone down the past 3 seasons. There’s a good chance he’ll repeat Damons numbers, but without Matsui who’s averaged .293/.370/.482, that’s a big chunk of numbers missing. Don’t forget, even with all the great players the Yankees haven’t won a world series since 2000. But we don’t have to worry about the Yankees right now. Our number 1 concern should be staying better than the people in our division.
I’m not disagreeing with you whole-heartedly, I just think the post-season is a crap shoot. You’ve got to win your division for that opportunity at that crapshoot.
i recall when
Everyone was saying how Seattle had improved and how they would take the division. Please! we have so much depth in our farm and in the bigs. We also have the Manager of the year and of the decade IMO. As far as other teams overtaking us in the west, how about we cross that bridge when we get to it.
Sigh.
Damon
ARod
Jeter
Matsui
CC
versus
Figgy
Naps
Abreu
Morales
And this you hold up as an example of a “crapshoot”. Dude, not even Vegas goes into battle with odds so high in their favor.
Had I owned the Pittsburgh Pirates, I could have saved America.
I don't think Mission is Accomplished at all.
If, as you speculate, we can get Lackey and Vlad back, with their salaries switched around. Then I would still like to see a better/different 5th outfielder, know who is backing up Wood and KMo, and, most importantly, get some more security in the bullpen.
Shields should be coming back.
Is Dondo rebounding or floundering?
Is Fuentes the answer?
We need Oliver (and/or another quality lefty) plus some, imho.
I am fine with the DH being Vlad and Naps trading off, with Abreu getting some reps there as well.
If we could trade GMJ (and his contract) for someone, a reliever, a 5th starter, a different OF, a different Quinlan, I would be more at ease (as would Arte’s pocketbook).
I still don’t see a place for Bay unless we get rid of or bench Rivera (which I don’t want to see happen).
Check out these games:
Multiplayer Baseball: http://www.mmobaseball.com/createaccount.aspx?ref=9687
Multiplayer Football: http://goallineblitz.com/game/signup.pl?ref=16986650
by matthiasstephan on Dec 11, 2009 7:25 AM PST reply actions
Pregunta para todos:
Why not go after Pedro Martinez for a 1 year deal to complete our 5 man rotation. He would be an outstanding influence on Senor Santana. It’s gonna be Lackey or Halladay, and if it’s Halladay, then if we can get Toronto to take Weaver (a Boras client), then with Pedro it all comes together.
When I'm not at the stadium, I'd rather be watching my Halos back in Costa Rica!
Did you watch Game six?
Do it for Nick '09
by BryanHarvey'sMoustache on Dec 11, 2009 10:08 AM PST up reply actions
granted
i thought the pedro signing in philadelphia was downright awful (i live near Philly), but was more than a pleasant surprise. but no, don’t sign pedro angels.
by Halos in DE on Dec 11, 2009 10:39 AM PST up reply actions
if in fact we really did offer...
… Suanders,Aybar, and Bourjos… I think the Jays are out of their minds for not taking that deal. 2 more than ready major leaguers that haven’t even reached their ceiling + a high end prospect has got to be the best offer they will get. I understand the angels couldve nixed the deal with Halladay turning down an extension but geez! Toronto has got to be bumming about not landing that deal. More than likely Halladay just turned down an extension because like Welch said: I really don’t think it takes that much to land an ace that is going into a walk year. I’d actually be okay with trading just one of saunders/weav/santana for just one year of halladay if that’s all it took, with weaver being the 1st on my list to go (being a boras client). If we sign lackey, deal one major league ready player+ a prospect for one year of halladay and get some bullpen help, I love our chances of winning it all. And with next years free agent crop… I’m willing let a young stud go for a serious chance at winning it all. Having just re-read my post, the only issue would be money… No small issue either.
What in the wide wide world of sports is uh goin on here???
by AlohaHalofan on Dec 11, 2009 8:37 AM PST via mobile reply actions
there needs to be a 3rd choice
C) Both
It can be done, Arte’s insinuations that he will only spend a certain amount I thik is valid unless it is for a major piece which this is.
If our offseason is this
re-sign abreu
replace figgins with wood
pick up Halliday
re-sign Lackey and we have to have a lineup of (in no particular batting order)
Resign Vlad to a cheap deal
Rivera-LF
Tori-CF
Abreu RF
Morales 1b
Kendrick 2b
Aybar SS
Wood 3b
Mathis C
Vlad-Dh
And a bullpen that brings back Shields,
With a starting staff of
Lackey, halliday, Weaver, Santana Kazmir.
Could this be the greatest offseason in the Angels history?
-We would have the best staff in baseball
-a mixture of Youth and vetrans
-A stronger bullpen that last year with the addition of shields (its like signing a FA)
-Competent backups with Bell, and Sullivan could step in if someone gets hurt, Izturis can back up SS, 2b, and even 3b, willits and Evans can backup the OF Mathews too
Seems like the best offseason ever if we do pull off the Halliday deal and resign Lackey
Quit Bitching about Wood not playing, The guy does deserve his shot but quit pretending that we have Willie Mays riding the pine
by Sinatrasratpack on Dec 11, 2009 9:00 AM PST reply actions
Having an impact, power bat
who can get on base is more important than getting both Lackey and Halladay.
Halladay Weaver Santana is a good enough 3 step, we need someone who can tie a game with one swing of the bat.
I brought sexy back, but they only gave me store credit....
no kaz in that 3 step?
What do you need a fancy suit for, Charlie, you ain't got no job to wear it to.
by clover_black on Dec 11, 2009 9:43 AM PST up reply actions
Yeah I keep forgetting about him for some reason
I brought sexy back, but they only gave me store credit....
As much as I love Lackey
I have to agree with the Slamma.
Outside of Holliday who the Halos don’t want and Bay who the Halos might not be able to afford, who is available. Matsui? Damon?
RIP Nick Adenhart 4/9/09
I blog about the Angels at The Diamond Aces
As much as I love Lackey
I have to agree with the Slamma.
Outside of Holliday who the Halos don’t want and Bay who the Halos might not be able to afford, who is available. Matsui? Damon?
RIP Nick Adenhart 4/9/09
I blog about the Angels at The Diamond Aces
There is no chance we get both Halladay and Lackey.
I would like to see O’Sully take up the 5th spot. I think that Vlad in an Angels uni is far from a sure thing.
They want power. We want respect...
by SenorChuckles on Dec 11, 2009 9:35 AM PST up reply actions
A healthy Vlad is an impact power bat
So are Torii, Morales and Rivera, and sometimes Abreu.
"Well make more fuckin' money. This is America. You don't make money, then you're a fuckin' douchebag." - Mr French "The Departed"
"You gotta have nuts." - Torii Hunter
do you just refuse to use the reply button to fuck with me?
What do you need a fancy suit for, Charlie, you ain't got no job to wear it to.
by clover_black on Dec 11, 2009 9:40 AM PST up reply actions
No, it doesn't work 50+% of the time on my work computer
I don’t know what it is. It was fine a few days ago, but now it doesn’t work and HH loads with a ton of errors.
I would go ask the IT guys but that may do more harm than good…
"Well make more fuckin' money. This is America. You don't make money, then you're a fuckin' douchebag." - Mr French "The Departed"
"You gotta have nuts." - Torii Hunter
The reverse is also reasonably likely
That is, if Arte & Co. have quietly determined that Lackey is asking too much, they would still play the bluff in order to drive up his cost – and the pain level – to the eventual winner. Professional baseball is an all seasons game. Beat your rivals on the field from April to November, f**k with them in any way possible through the off-season. We expect the Halos organization to compete well with the Yankees and Red Sox on the field. Why not at the poker table?
After all, if the FO really thinks Lackey is worth much more that the 4/$72 they offered during the season, why wouldn’ t they have just given it to him? Why let him get out on the free market where the other poker players can bid him up to ridiculousness? Hilliard is not Boras.
I suspect Halladay is Job One. I’m good with that, though I’m solidly in the “don’t give Aybar” camp. I’m a Lackey fan, on record as having followed and watched him since High A Elsinore. If we’re gonna bet a good portion of the future on an arm though, I’d bet on Roy’s.
Driven into right-center field, Erstad says he has it...the Angels, world champions!
by LAASurfin on Dec 11, 2009 9:43 AM PST reply actions 1 recs
I think thats about right Rev...
I dont think a trade is really going to go through with the Jays. Ninja is playing the spin game to stall on Lackey.
If this is the case, its seems like our bank after signing Lackey would be tapped. Get Vlad back on board and we essentially have last years team minus figgy plus Wood. Which means less speed but more power.
Sounds good to me.
Do it for Nick '09
by BryanHarvey'sMoustache on Dec 11, 2009 10:11 AM PST reply actions
BREAKING NEWS -- SOURCE : PETER GAMMONS
According to Peter Gammons (who was interviewed yesterday evening on 710 kmpc radio) the Jays have killed the proposed 3 player deal (Aybar, Saunders, Borjos) for Roy Halladay.
Apparently Toronto is looking to get 5 players for Halladay ! They want a deal akin to what the Red Sox offered back in July.
If this is true (and I have every reason to believe a reputable source like Gammons) then the Jays can go screw themselves.
Maybe we should say "You want five players, okay here’s your five: Borjos, Willits, Palmer, Bell and Bobby Wilson.
Do they understand that they’re not exactly in the greatest bargaining position when everyone knows that they have to trade Halladay or lose him and get nothing?
Screw them. Let’s sign Lackey and go get a bat.
They cannot take the first offer.
The Angels should have offered a smaller package, and not have gone for the Stonemanesk THIS IS WHAT WE ARE GIVING YOU, TAKE IT OR LEAVE IT package.
The Jays have to get the most out of this deal. JP Ricciardi fucked up that team so bad they need a Tex-like haul to really get back in the game.
They will probably take a Saunders, Napoli, Bourjos, Prospect, Low Prospect deal. Which, in all fairness, isnt that bad.
I brought sexy back, but they only gave me store credit....
at the most
maybe we throw in just one more prospect a mid level one, but no more, others who have posted that they don’t have any leverage are right.
However we are starting to feel the heat too. If Texas is getting betterm Oakland is stacked for the futrure (just not next year) and the mariners get figgy, and maybe Lackey we might be in trouble
Quit Bitching about Wood not playing, The guy does deserve his shot but quit pretending that we have Willie Mays riding the pine
by Sinatrasratpack on Dec 11, 2009 11:40 AM PST up reply actions
Jays have absolutely no leverage
This is insane.
What do you need a fancy suit for, Charlie, you ain't got no job to wear it to.
by clover_black on Dec 11, 2009 10:33 AM PST up reply actions
They DO have leverage.
Right up to the point where teams stop offering.
They have a couple of months to get this done, right? Why wouldn’t they take their time? Somebody might reach into their pocket and put a shinier marble on the table. At the end, you go back to the guy that offered the most and pat him on the shoulder…
Driven into right-center field, Erstad says he has it...the Angels, world champions!
True.
5 player package for halladay is just lame though…
Of course, i need to remember to take all these reports with a grain of salt.
What do you need a fancy suit for, Charlie, you ain't got no job to wear it to.
by clover_black on Dec 11, 2009 12:03 PM PST up reply actions
Lame indeed. And I don't think they can get it.
But there might be a clue embedded in their asking: If Roy was refusing to sign an extension with the Angels, Toronto would know that, right? Why, then, would they come back and ask for more?
They wouldn’t. So, maybe the implication is that Roy WOULD sign an extension with the Angels, and the Jays are now just trying to maximize the return.
Nothing to support this. Just trying to think through the game…
Driven into right-center field, Erstad says he has it...the Angels, world champions!
Peter Gammons is an idiot.
Ninja will get shit done. Halladay will be an Angel by Christmas. Unless the Jays GM is as fuckin ridiculous as J.P.
They want power. We want respect...
by SenorChuckles on Dec 11, 2009 11:38 AM PST up reply actions
He'd better not be.
Isn’t that kind of what got Ricciardi fired in the first place?
Also, Peter Gammons is a bit more credible now that he’s left ESPN and joined MLB Network/NESN, isn’t he? Or is it the other way around and MLB Network/NESN is now slightly more credible? Or both?
RIP Nick Adenhart.
"When the Babe tries to call his shot, I hope Nick puts one in his ear."
--RallyMonkey5
ESPN seems like it now reports news only if its legit.
meaning if everyone else has reported it, why shouldnt we. I still think we get a big trade maybe its Halladay maybe its not, my gut tells me it is Halladay though.
They want power. We want respect...
by SenorChuckles on Dec 11, 2009 2:37 PM PST up reply actions
As of 10:30 AM, its an absolute landslide in favor of getting Halladay.
We may as well close the poll!
I brought sexy back, but they only gave me store credit....
True.
Having the leagues worst catcher is a priority.
What do you need a fancy suit for, Charlie, you ain't got no job to wear it to.
by clover_black on Dec 11, 2009 1:58 PM PST up reply actions
Which is better than having The Black Hole* in the line-up for 500 ABs.
*Except for maybe 10-20 ABs in the playoffs if we get lucky. MAYBE.
RIP Nick Adenhart.
"When the Babe tries to call his shot, I hope Nick puts one in his ear."
--RallyMonkey5
Maybe. Maybe not.
But if dealing away the leagues worst catcher for the best pitcher in baseball is what its going to take, then… oh gosh, i guess im tentatively on board with that one.
What do you need a fancy suit for, Charlie, you ain't got no job to wear it to.
by clover_black on Dec 11, 2009 2:04 PM PST up reply actions
besides
brandon wood will be hitting 50 home runs …..
…before the all star break!
What do you need a fancy suit for, Charlie, you ain't got no job to wear it to.
by clover_black on Dec 11, 2009 2:07 PM PST up reply actions
Nah, more like 100.
Come one, let’s be realistic here.
And I would consider giving up Napoli for Halladay, but I just don’t think we have the depth to replace him in the line-up. You just can’t substitute in an automatic out for the entire season. Heck, even Jose Molina was vaguely able to get on base and had SOME power. Even that was better than what Mathis regularly does.
RIP Nick Adenhart.
"When the Babe tries to call his shot, I hope Nick puts one in his ear."
--RallyMonkey5
dont worry Mathis in 2010 Conger in 2011
They want power. We want respect...
by SenorChuckles on Dec 11, 2009 2:38 PM PST up reply actions
I dunno...
You can’t say Wood’s unproven and then rely on Conger to come save the day!
If Wilson was more of a sure bet to help out on the offensive end, then maybe go for it. Not sure my man-crush on Naps can take it regardless, though!
RIP Nick Adenhart.
"When the Babe tries to call his shot, I hope Nick puts one in his ear."
--RallyMonkey5
only 50 ? is he going to try batting left handed ?
or his he holding the bat upside down… such a small #
IT COULD HAPPEN
by BigBangRobbDawgg on Dec 11, 2009 7:49 PM PST up reply actions
League's worst catcher = .842 OPS?
And don’t those defensive metrics that have him ranked as the worst defensive catcher only have Mathis a peg or two above him? Factor in Mathis’ .596 (yes, his OPS starts with a 5 – that’s how pathetic of a hitter he is), and your point makes no sense.
You deal napoli for a future hall of famer.
My point makes perfect sense.
What do you need a fancy suit for, Charlie, you ain't got no job to wear it to.
by clover_black on Dec 11, 2009 2:26 PM PST up reply actions
I agree. My comment was more on valuing Aybar higher than Naps.
Patient power hitting catchers are harder to find and more expensive than good defensive powerless, walkless hitting shortstops. I like Aybar, but he’s easier to replace than Naps.
I would rather give up Naps than Aybar.
Our infeild depth gets really scary if without Aybar.
A very likely (but pessimistic) scenario come July:
Wood hitting .192 with 7 BB and 80 SO
Aybar traded to the Jays
Izzy out 6 week with a pulled hamstring.
Who do we got left. Sandoval? M. Brown? If we were ever planning on trading Aybar then we should have held on to Sean Rod.
It seems we have a little more depth behind the plate. I mean Napoli should be a DH anyways
Yes that's a possibility, but exactly how is that "very likely"?
It’s equally likely that Wood hits .380 with 15-20 HR and 60 RBI at the All-Star Break, while Torii has concussed himself again and is out for the season, while Rivera re-fractures his leg and Kendry goes into a major sophomore slump.
RIP Nick Adenhart.
"When the Babe tries to call his shot, I hope Nick puts one in his ear."
--RallyMonkey5
I know
There are just so many invariables in the season. We have had such bad luck with the last power hitting 3B we brought up (Dallas). I remember at that time that I was thinking he would come up and mash. As they say the rest is history.
Besides 2009 both HK and Izzy had spent a a decent portion of time on the DL.
I think that in 2010 winning the AL west could be an absolute dogfight.
But in light of your statement I think I will officially change my thought from very likely to likely.
I hope that being pesstimistic the opposite will happen. I know…absolute foolishness.
Come on Ninja, let's get some action and something DONE!
:-D
RIP Nick Adenhart.
"When the Babe tries to call his shot, I hope Nick puts one in his ear."
--RallyMonkey5
If we fail to get Hallday in a trade
Lackey gets too expensive and Bay signs elsewhere before we can react…
There might be a good chance we dont sniff the playoffs next year.
I brought sexy back, but they only gave me store credit....
Eh, I wouldn't go quite THAT far.
This isn’t the 2006 or before team we’re looking at. These guys are solid and can get it done. It’s just how close and nail-biting will it be?
RIP Nick Adenhart.
"When the Babe tries to call his shot, I hope Nick puts one in his ear."
--RallyMonkey5
The rotation is kinda meh
Which is the Angels “strength”
Weaver
Kazmir
Saunders
Santana
???
One, or more, injury to that 4 would be devastating.
I brought sexy back, but they only gave me store credit....
it could be meh or it could be awesome...
Lets say Weaver gets better, and Erv returns to 2008 form and Joe pretty much keeps up with what hes been doing and Kaz does better than last year but not as good as previous years….we still have a solid rotation. Our offense would just have to step up.
Also, we went through more than 4 injuries last year and were able to fine…
Do it for Nick '09
by BryanHarvey'sMoustache on Dec 11, 2009 8:42 PM PST up reply actions
Agree.
I’ll add that the loss of FIGGINS will hurt us more than people think.
That why getting Halladay now becomes a must.
I realize that the front office is doing a lot of work behind the scenes.
But damn I am getting impatient. I just want to be comfortable with our team next year (which currently I am not) and get excited for the upcoming season. It’s only early in the offseason, and I am already starting to become agitated.
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