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Around SBN: Jeremy Lin Continues Rampage, New York Wins On Road

Where the Angels are and where the Red Sox/Yankees are

After trying to interpret baseball economics for the past several years, and reading about the feelings of betrayal some Angel fans feel after Mark Teixeira and John Lackey left the Angels, I've decided that the Red Sox and Yankees are at Stage 4 in a process I outlined below.  The Angels are at Stage 3.  

  1. The owners have to guarantee money to the players whether they perform or not.
  2. The players have to guarantee service to the owners whether they like the team or not.
  3. The team has to win before the fans buy tickets and create a stadium environment that attracts players and gives the owner more resources to invest.
  4. After all of this comes together on a consistent basis, investors will give the team the means to start their network and be able to spend what the Red Sox and Yankees spend.  The amount of money required to do this exceeds Arte Moreno's personal fortune.

I think the Angels would like to reach Stage 4 and eventually will.  In the meantime, Arte Moreno has seriously upgraded the performance and annual expectations of the team even if he hasn't won a World Series.  The nucleus of that 2002 World Series team had a lot of up and down years (41 games out of first in 2001 for example) that we as a fan base are not willing to go through any more.  Moreno's not waiting for everything to become ideal to seek the ultimate prize, but there are limits to even what he can do.

The Angels have never given me the impression that they are acting in self-interest, and they have shown me  the past six years that this organization is light years ahead of anything we had before.  Let's stick with them even if we don't entirely understand everything is going on and hasten the arrival of the Halos into Stage 4.  This media market is second only to New York in size and bigger than Boston's. 

What the Angels can become will far outstrip the loss of one popular yet overpriced pitcher who averages 13 wins a season.

This Fan-Post is authored by an independent fan. Tell us what you think and how you feel.

Comment 45 comments  |  3 recs  | 

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Lets not forget the one huge advantage the Angels have..

The AL western division only has 4 teams. It’s probably the easiest division to win in all of baseball because:

1) Theres only three teams you need to overcome
2) Of the three teams, one (Oakland) is sunk in small market hell with low attendance, smallish population to draw from, and an owner not willing to risk the personal fortune that’s required to get over the top.
3) Of the three teams, one (Texas) plays in a park that hinders their ability to succeed over the long haul. The park is in the south with no roof so it can get very hot. This is not good for the poor sap asked to labor on the mound for several innings and to add insult to injury for this poor guy, it’s a hitter’s park. Add to this an owner who’s on shakey finacial ground and you can pretty much discount them as well.
4) The last team in the division, while not hindered like the other two, doesn’t have the population to draw from that the Angels have.

It’s pretty much a proven fact that So Cal fans will support a winner as well as any other big market but will be indifferent to a loser (present company excluded).

The Yankees and Boston, with their tremendous incomes and ability to assign payroll still have the disadvantage of having to over come each other to win their division. I don’t think Boston has the staying power to remain in the fight and all it will take is a disaster year with a large payroll to crush them like Baltimore had around 10 years ago.

I think that the AL will continue to feature strong teams from the Angels, and the Yankees year in and year out with the occational flash in the pan from other teams from time to time. I don’t think Boston will remain contenders in the long run.

by Jietoh on Dec 17, 2009 10:15 AM PST reply actions  

Speaking of markets.

Don’t forget the small city that Matsui will bring in. He has a following all in its own. He will bring this team even more money and improve the offense at the same time. Plus the Angels will be able to make money on the TV viewing rights in Japan.

"F@&* it, lets pitch"
-Ervin Santana

by pendletonmike on Dec 17, 2009 12:42 PM PST up reply actions  

while that makes sense

would someone please explain why it has taken our “marketing billionaire” owner so long to go after, let alone sign a japanese player?

When I'm not at the stadium, I'd rather be watching my Halos back in Costa Rica!

by Dono Romantico on Dec 21, 2009 1:59 PM PST up reply actions  

Disagree on point 4

Agree on population draw, but this is a very affluent market with an owner (Nintendo) willing to pay big market payroll and a wonderful stadium. Seattle always has a top team payroll, they just have not been able to allocate it in a winning manner! They seem to be moving closer to that re-allocation. I don’t consider them a major threat for 2010, but the West is not what it was.

People ask me what I do in winter when there's no baseball. I'll tell you what I do. I stare out the window and wait for spring. ~Rogers Hornsby

by K3YEROUT on Dec 17, 2009 1:34 PM PST up reply actions  

Ok, I'll give you that point...

I still like my chances in a 2 horse race…

by Jietoh on Dec 18, 2009 12:50 PM PST up reply actions  

Boston is much stronger than you think.

They have a large area (all of New England) to draw from, a small but lucrative park that is easily (and constantly) filled, their own sports network for added revenue, and a talented management that spends wisely and routinely fields 95+ win teams. Unlike almost every other major market team (LA, Chicago, New York) there is no other regional team for them to compete with for fans. Finally, there is a large and intensely devoted fanbase that has stuck with them for decades of despair; the loss of bandwagoners wouldn’t hit the team that hard.

"It's just a tiny little nick, but it hurts when I get champagne in there."
- Jason Bay, on getting spiked scoring the winning run in ALDS Game Four.

by 0157H7 on Dec 18, 2009 11:54 AM PST up reply actions  

Exactly right

The radio network for the Sox games covers all of New England. The Sox (like the Pats and the Celts) are a franchise for an entire region, not just a city. You’ll meet folks from Maine who are die-hard Sox fans. They watch the games on NESN and listen to them on the local radio station affiliated with the Sox radio network—a network which has its own sponsor, by the way (Shaw’s Supermarkets, which means the network is identified by the announcers as the “Shaw’s WEEI Red Sox Radio Network”); imagine if Ralphs or Vons paid to sponsor the Angels’ radio network, how much money would that bring in?

"He's not a Rhodes Scholar to begin with''~Theo Epstein, talking about Papelbon

by George Kaplan on Dec 19, 2009 6:41 AM PST up reply actions  

All major league teams are regional

That’s why Arte felt he had to change the name, to reclaim the entire Los Angeles media market that Autry and Disney shrunk to primarily Orange County.

by California Cajun on Dec 20, 2009 10:26 PM PST up reply actions  

so what I would like to know is

how many new fans the Angels have thanks to the name change that are only from the greater Los Angeles area? Or how many new fans are rooting for and buying Angels merchandise solely because they like the name Los Angeles (which Arte has not put on any Angels merchandise he sells.

It will be impossible to prove because during the time since the name change, the Angels have put out a winning team and winning teams will attract new fans. And finally, most importantly what is the name of the team that won the 2002 World Series that the entire world got to see perform it’s miracle run.

Truth be told, Anaheim was the name and until the LA Angels of Anaheim win a WS. Anaheim was the last southern California baseball team to win a World Series.

When I'm not at the stadium, I'd rather be watching my Halos back in Costa Rica!

by Dono Romantico on Dec 21, 2009 2:06 PM PST up reply actions  

For me personally

The worst thing about winning the series was having the name Anaheim attached to the Angels.

I thought that was the most small minded thing Disney did. Change the name of a baseball team (that wasn’t even very good at the time) in order to increase exposure for Disneyland. LAME!!!

I personally would like to drop the Anaheim all together or go back to California

OK, done with my rant… nothing more to see here

R.I.P. King Ad-Rock #34

by Seik1177 on Dec 22, 2009 3:26 PM PST up reply actions  

+1

I was more PO’d that they changed it to Anaheim from California than the Anaheim to LA change…

I love this team.

by Downing Rules on Dec 22, 2009 3:35 PM PST up reply actions  

The CA was a sick logo

And I wouldn’t mind if they still used it. However our current one is equally good and is the one we stamped our name onto the baseball world with. I hope this is our logo for the rest of eternity.

Thank God we didn’t win in 2002 with that horrid wing/powder blue BS.

"You gotta have nuts." - Torii Hunter / Part-Time Nemesis of the HH Reply Function

by Commander_Nate on Dec 23, 2009 2:10 PM PST up reply actions  

No kidding.

Those uni’s were absolutely HORRID.

Nick would be proud.

by halofan4life on Dec 24, 2009 12:42 PM PST up reply actions  

Some good analysis here

It should be mentioned that this past decade of drawing around or above 3 million fans every year has created a very large and dedicated fan base that will continue to grow over time.

This new generation of Angel fans will stick with the team and as they get older and have kids of their own, they will raise the next, even larger generation of fans who will stick with the team. Being a part of the current generation of Angel fans, I see this happening right now.

When I was in middle school in like ‘97, my dad would drive the family out from Elsinore to see a game and the stadium would be half-empty at best. Now I’m over a year removed from college and it’s difficult to find seats in certain sections even when teams like Baltimore or Kansas City are in town. A good amount of the people I see the few times I’m able to make it to the stadium are in my age group too, mid-20’s to early 30’s.

This bodes very well for the franchise going into the future.

"You gotta have nuts." - Torii Hunter / Part-Time Nemesis of the HH Reply Function

by Commander_Nate on Dec 17, 2009 10:31 AM PST reply actions  

i hope you re right

about the depth of the base’s loyalty…

by Rev Halofan on Dec 17, 2009 12:29 PM PST up reply actions  

Southern California is historically fickle in their choices for sports teams.

Maybe fickle isn’t the right word, but my point is:

There are virtually no Clippers fans to be found on planet earth.
Half the residents of SoCal consider themselves to be Trojan football fans, as well as Bruin basketball fans.
It used to be that Angels fans were scarce, and the Dodgers were hot shit, but the tides have almost completely turned.

If the Halos miss the playoffs say, 8 years in a row, and the Dodgers make the playoffs in those 8 years, I’m afraid we will be a dying, if not dead, breed.

"Precious in the sight of the Lord, is the death of His Saints." - Psalm 116:15 Rest In Peace, Nick.

by angels4adam on Dec 18, 2009 4:14 AM PST up reply actions  

You may be right to some degree

I’m sure there is a decent sized crop of bandwagon/yuppie fans from the OC/LA who would jump ship to the Dodgers if they started to have more success than the Angels. Then of course there’s the “I pull for both” crowd, which makes no effin’ sense to me at all.

But I think when you get to places like Riverside County, palces in OC like Anaheim, Fullerton, Huntington Beach, even parts of North County SD, you’re entering what is mostly Angel territory. I think it really has more to do with geography than anything. I grew up an Angel fan in Elsinore and my friends that are Angel fans have always and will always be with the team. None of them will ever jump on the Dodger wagon.

And for the record, there are at least two Clipper fans. One of them is a friend from back home and the other lives by me down here in San Diego. How the second one came to be I don’t quite understand. Needless to say it was mindblowing when I found out.

"You gotta have nuts." - Torii Hunter / Part-Time Nemesis of the HH Reply Function

by Commander_Nate on Dec 18, 2009 9:31 AM PST up reply actions  

That makes 3 clipper fans.

Don’t forget Billy Crystal. He was the Clips version of Jack Nicholson for a while.

Angels baseball. We do what we must, because we can -- HaloDutch

by red floyd on Dec 18, 2009 11:23 AM PST up reply actions  

If I liked basketball

I’d be a Clippers fan, they remind me of the early year Angels. Big Name Big Disaster. Get rid of your good young players for over-hyped “veterans” players.

Who knows maybe Sterling will sell them, they’ll get a real owner & actually make something of their franchise.

(Looks to the left) wow man… that was some strong shit… [take another hit]

R.I.P. King Ad-Rock #34

by Seik1177 on Dec 18, 2009 5:16 PM PST up reply actions  

make it 4

Cliipers fan here since I knew how to play basketball.
Yes, please do feel sory for me. It feels weird to be a fan of both the #1 sports team and dead last sports team (according to ESPN) in the USA. I wish Arte would call Donald and teach him how to run a sports team.

Angels 2009 WS Champs

by dan73962 on Dec 20, 2009 4:32 PM PST up reply actions  

There was a really good article...

about The Donald in ESPN magazine last May. According to it;
1) The Donald made his fortune by buying real estate in LA back when it was cheap. He kept his fortune by never selling any of it. The same could be said of the Clippers, he bought them when they were cheap, moved them to LA and will probably never sell them.

2) The Donald makes a mint off of the Clips because of shared revenew. It matters not what his teams record is nor does it matter what they draw each year. He has no real reason to invest in the team to make it better because he makes money even though they haven’t sniffed the playoffs in over a decade.

3) The one shining ray of hope is that The Donald has an ego. Because of this he would very much like to see the Clips do something in the playoffs and it eats at him to see them do so poorly year in and year out. Maybe if he got the right basketball people to turn the orginization around he’d stick with the program.

by Jietoh on Dec 21, 2009 7:57 AM PST up reply actions  

Commander

truth be told, the gigantic layout of SoCal with it’s near 24 hour gridlock makes attending Dodger games or Angel games for anyone now willing to sit in traffic not worth the drive.

When I'm not at the stadium, I'd rather be watching my Halos back in Costa Rica!

by Dono Romantico on Dec 21, 2009 2:16 PM PST up reply actions  

Unfortunately True

The last 4 games I went to took me an average of 2.5 hours to get to the stadium. The last two (playoffs) averaged 3.25 hours. One way.

Angels baseball. We do what we must, because we can -- HaloDutch

by red floyd on Dec 22, 2009 11:19 AM PST up reply actions  

The "Lofts" are calling your name...

or you can live under the 57 as it passes over the Santa Ana River.

I love this team.

by Downing Rules on Dec 22, 2009 2:50 PM PST up reply actions  

My job is in Simi Valley, I live in Woodland Hills, my wife works in Woodland Hills.

Why would I move to the Lofts?

Angels baseball. We do what we must, because we can -- HaloDutch

by red floyd on Dec 22, 2009 4:06 PM PST up reply actions  

There's a train station not 100 yards from the stadium...

Maybe that would be a way to relieve some of the traffic issues?

by Jietoh on Dec 23, 2009 6:40 AM PST up reply actions  

I've always wanted to take the train there...

The issue is Amtrak and their schedules. For example, if a game ends after Amtrak’s (or Metrolink’s) last run, how the hell do I get home?

Angels baseball. We do what we must, because we can -- HaloDutch

by red floyd on Dec 23, 2009 8:41 AM PST up reply actions  

Amtrack isn't the greatest option over distance

As Floyd said the schedules don’t always match up.

I live way down in SD and my buddy and I considered taking the train up for Game 3 of the ALCS. It was something like 44 bucks each for a roundtrip ticket, so $88 for the two of us. Even with current costs, it didn’t cost even half that to drive up there and we could come, go, and stop along the way as we pleased.

"You gotta have nuts." - Torii Hunter / Part-Time Nemesis of the HH Reply Function

by Commander_Nate on Dec 23, 2009 2:16 PM PST up reply actions  

Carpool with Mark Gubicza...

he’s from Chatsworthless. You are in Slimy Valley, it’s just over the Santa Susana from there.

I love this team.

by Downing Rules on Dec 23, 2009 11:57 AM PST up reply actions  

of course

let’s us first thank the previous owner, Disney for marketing the team (whether we personally liked what they did or not), because it was under their ownership and marketing that they won the World Series, remodeled the stadium, and created the winning environment that Arte has sustained to this day.
I will argue that the stadium remodel is one of a few key factors that keep the locals coming back to enjoy the last family friendly affordable sport in the best weather in the US.

When I'm not at the stadium, I'd rather be watching my Halos back in Costa Rica!

by Dono Romantico on Dec 21, 2009 2:12 PM PST up reply actions  

He's right about the generational thing....

I mean, I live and grew up in Santa Barbara, and one of my earliest memories is of watching a very young Cal Ripken and his Orioles pound the Angels on a black and white TV…. Channel 5 baby, and I was sad cause my dad was unhappy. I remember Bobby Gritch being very excited and not knowing why, and people chanting “Boooooone” when Bob Boone came up (I thought they were booing him and asked mom why). If your parents are a fan, you become a fan of the team before you even fully understand what’s going on. You pick on Willie Fraser cause he looks goofy, he sucks, and your parents groan everytime he comes in. You love Brian Downing because he reminds you of your dad.

So if I had my love for the Angels instilled in me from 76-86, when we were good but not THIS good, and still not drawing well, then imagine how many kids are being pre-programed to root for Howie and Kendry now, with 3million a year coming out! And how many times have I had to sit in a local bar where the two young women sitting next to me yell “Dodgers bitch!” but can’t name more than three players on the team. They watch the team, were the t-shirt and root for the Doyers because that’s what their dad did with them as a kid.

My point is that every dedicated fan can generate several more over the years, this builds the team into a powerhouse, Dodger fans are a product of repressive, child abuse like family tradition, and Arte needs to get that regional thing covered and get on a damn radio station I can hear up here or my kids are gonna go Padres.

Sometimes I wish Rex would be quiet

by gitchogritchoffmypetis on Dec 22, 2009 5:49 PM PST up reply actions   1 recs

You don't get AM 830?

I live all the way down in Pacific Beach and I can get it pretty clearly. Sometimes I get interference from spanish stations or some religious one but it’s usually tolerable.

Also, glad to see you and I are in agreement about the generational thing.

"You gotta have nuts." - Torii Hunter / Part-Time Nemesis of the HH Reply Function

by Commander_Nate on Dec 23, 2009 2:18 PM PST up reply actions  

Are you kidding?

I got AM 830 in VEGAS last July when I was coming back from a softball tournament.

That’s one reason Arte bought that station – because you can get it pretty much over half the state.

"And the Anaheim Angels are the Champions of Baseball!"

by Grichfan on Dec 27, 2009 12:50 PM PST up reply actions  

Not well in the West Valley or eastern Ventura Co (Simi).

Angels baseball. We do what we must, because we can -- HaloDutch

by red floyd on Dec 27, 2009 4:06 PM PST up reply actions  

The fan base is solid

We are no longer a fan base made up solely of Orange County Caucasians, and Matsui will only improve our growing demographic diversity. We will continue to make money (let’s not forget the All-Star game either).

I don’t think Boston is going anywhere. Their fanbase may largely consist of folks who converted to the Sawx in 2004 (when they stopped being Braves fans), but the bandwagoners I know aren’t gonna ebay all of their apparel after a few losing seasons.

We will continue to compete at a high level. As for Teixeira, I thought he was a douche from jumpstreet. And as far as Lackey, even though it kills me seeing him in that uniform, if Boston wants to overpay for pitchers then they can deal with the consequences.

Free Brandon!!!

by ronniejm on Dec 17, 2009 1:11 PM PST reply actions  

Couldn't agree more

I’ve been laboring to make this point, but you’ve done it brilliantly and concisely.

by rspencer on Dec 17, 2009 1:53 PM PST reply actions  

Head start

Don’t forget, Boston and New York had baseball teams in their cities for maybe 65 years before us. That’s a long head start to build a fan base.

by yeswecan on Dec 17, 2009 2:01 PM PST reply actions   1 recs

Right, that's what I was getting at earlier

We are just now entering the 2nd and 3rd generations of Angel fans. I’d say in about 20 years we could probably have a fanbase the size of New York and Boston, given the population that lives in the market.

I mean, we’re seeing Angel fans on TV at road games all over the place now, even a few in places like NY, and I don’t remember seeing that at all growing up.

"You gotta have nuts." - Torii Hunter / Part-Time Nemesis of the HH Reply Function

by Commander_Nate on Dec 17, 2009 2:14 PM PST up reply actions  

Yep. Angels fans are in every park now

As recently as the late ’90s, I remember the team struggling to fill the park on a regular basis, with hardly any fans wearing Angels gear in our own house, let alone in other parks.

If I had some time, I would post a photo of me in Yankee Stadium in ‘96 sporting an Angels visor with the dreaded “Disney wing” logo. But I think we’d all like to forget that era, for the most part.

by yeswecan on Dec 18, 2009 7:29 PM PST up reply actions  

Baltimore is at stage four

but even with a network Angelos blows as an owner and I’m not sure that even Mcphail can bail him out.

I must not fear. Fear is the mind-killer.

by Moondoggy on Dec 17, 2009 7:28 PM PST reply actions  

Angelos is a bad owner

I think you can throw out any blueprint for success under these conditions. However, it seems like Angelos has allowed the professionals to run the baseball team since McPhail came aboard.

by California Cajun on Dec 18, 2009 7:54 AM PST up reply actions  

It Used to be that way

however, next season will be the real test of the Angels organization. If I were the Angels, I would Now be focused on winning the division than worrying about the Red Sox and Yanks. In recent years past, I would agree about the Yanks/Sox being the primary obstical to overcome, but that was before some major working parts of the Angels success went elsewhere this offseason.

When I'm not at the stadium, I'd rather be watching my Halos back in Costa Rica!

by Dono Romantico on Dec 21, 2009 1:53 PM PST reply actions  

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