A Bit Of Baseball Minutiae
by WiHaloFan on Dec 2, 2009 5:36 PM PST
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PrintI've been reading "As They See 'Em: A Fan's Travels in the Land of Umpires", a book written by Bruce Weber about umpires and what it takes to become a major league ump (it's very good so far...at least after about 100 pages). But I read something I thought was interesting and had never heard explained before:
In the early days of baseball, home plate, like the other bases, was a square, and it was orientated so one point faced the pitcher, one faced the catcher, and the two others defined the horizontal limits of the strike zone. What has survived from this configuration is a bit of jargon that today is literally nonsense; that the plate has an inside and an outside corner.
I have heard announcers say during a game "that pitch caught the inside corner" or "a fastball on the corner for a strike" for as long as I've been a fan, and until I read that, I never realized the plate had no corners. Consider my mind blown.
Just thought I'd share that with you all.
This Fan-Post is authored by an independent fan. Tell us what you think and how you feel.
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Heh.
Never thought about that either…good find, WiHF
"Figgins' OBP is still over 40!" -Steve Physioc
by Figgi4life on Dec 2, 2009 6:49 PM PST via mobile reply actions
This is definitely on my to-read list...
Heard an interview with Bruce Weber on NPR about this book. Sounds super super fascinating. Good to hear you like it. Maybe write a review for us when you’re done??
Do it for Nick '09
by BryanHarvey'sMoustache on Dec 2, 2009 7:13 PM PST reply actions
I will once I've finished it.
I received the book about 4 or 5 months ago, but thought, how can a book about umpires be interesting? It is very good so far and contains a lot of cool stuff about how umpires are selected and rule book information like:
Fair or foul? A line drive hits the pitcher’s rubber and deflects into foul territory near the first-base on-deck circle.
Make sure to let us know,
How blue decides how many outs occur when 2 runners are on one base and neither runner is actually on the base, and both are tagged out.
YOU DON'T KNOW THE POWER OF THE DARKSIDE.....
by halofolife on Dec 2, 2009 8:13 PM PST up reply actions 3 recs
Oh! Oh! (Hand raised high) Me! Me!
Let’s see… Seems like it would be fair. It hit the pitcher’s rubber right?
Buuu-ut, if it was that easy you wouldn’t have asked so… I’m gonna say FOUL!
Did I out-think myself, again??
Driven into right-center field, Erstad says he has it...the Angels, world champions!
Yeah, I'd say fair.
Just like if the ball hits the fence (fair) and bounces foul its still a fair ball.
although it could be some random rule based on it being within the infield….
by Balls and Strikes on Dec 2, 2009 10:21 PM PST up reply actions
unfortunately the ball did not pass 1st or 3rd base in fair territory...
guess I have to say foul…
People ask me what I do in winter when there's no baseball. I'll tell you what I do. I stare out the window and wait for spring. ~Rogers Hornsby
that's what i was thinking
"Precious in the sight of the Lord, is the death of His Saints." - Psalm 116:15 Rest In Peace, Nick.
Maybe he's number
“S Y”
Or he’s in a mutant universe where everything is backwards and they refer to corners of the strikezone.
by shiftyeyedgoat on Dec 2, 2009 8:57 PM PST up reply actions
But what about a pitch that is "belt high"
mid-strike zone that catches “the corner”? There’s no corner when the pitch is vertically in the middle of the zone, but on the inner or outer edge. I’ve heard of those pitches being “on the corner”.
And yeah, what’s up with that jersey? Are you trying to completely freak me out?
I've never heard anyone
Call a belt-high pitch “on the corner”
"Figgins' OBP is still over 40!" -Steve Physioc
by Figgi4life on Dec 2, 2009 8:04 PM PST via mobile up reply actions
Really?
You’ve only heard pitches that were low or high in the zone “catching the corner”?
This will be something we’ll need to watch for next season during a game thread.
I'm with Figgi4life,
I’d go as far to say they only refer to corners if they’re low and inside or outside, just catching the plate’s vertical plane intersecting the knees. “Caught the inside corner”, " Just caught the outside corner of the plate." etc.
by shiftyeyedgoat on Dec 2, 2009 8:54 PM PST up reply actions
It's not about the box. It's about the actual shape of the plate
The point is, what is today considered the “corner” is actually a straight line. But whrn it was like all the other bases, the “corner” is actually a corner…there is no line like there is in modern times. Get it?
"Figgins' OBP is still over 40!" -Steve Physioc
by Figgi4life on Dec 2, 2009 8:02 PM PST via mobile up reply actions
No, I understand that,
what I don’t understand is how people could think this is a “useless jargon” word.
by shiftyeyedgoat on Dec 2, 2009 8:55 PM PST up reply actions
Because
any pitch hitting the outside or inside limit if the plate, not matter where it lands vertically, is considered “hitting the corner” and is constantly referenced as so.
They do not limit the term as to onlywhen a pitch hits the absolute lower or highest extremity of the horizontal limits, therefore is incorrect.
I brought sexy back, but they only gave me store credit....
We're not disputing what "their" intended meaning is, whoever "they" are.
We’re disputing why reference to a different, more relevant, corner is impossible nonsense and jargon-esque.
I consider the corner any part of the above box that shows as an intersection of strike planes.
by shiftyeyedgoat on Dec 2, 2009 9:07 PM PST up reply actions
The problem is
ANY pitch that hits the left or right “line” of that picture you posted is considered “on the corner”.
It doesnt actually have to hit the corner in the pic to be considered as such, hence jargon.
I brought sexy back, but they only gave me store credit....
I reject your reality and substitute my own.
by shiftyeyedgoat on Dec 2, 2009 9:11 PM PST up reply actions
Source?
I always thought the reference was “over the corner of the plate”. Nothing to support that with though.
Driven into right-center field, Erstad says he has it...the Angels, world champions!
I've always heard it suffixed with "of the plate," too.
RIP Nick Adenhart.
"When the Babe tries to call his shot, I hope Nick puts one in his ear."
--RallyMonkey5
Wouldn't this be (for a right-handed batter) across the "outside corner"?
Had I owned the Pittsburgh Pirates, I could have saved America.
Okay...
Block out everything but the straight line on the right. It’s no longer a corner. But that straight line is still the edge of the strike zone, right?
However, if it was a diamond, no matter how much you block out (unless you wanna get all the way down to a incredibly small dot) it’s still a corner, and it’s STILL the edge of the strike zone…
"Figgins' OBP is still over 40!" -Steve Physioc
by Figgi4life on Dec 2, 2009 8:55 PM PST via mobile up reply actions
Well, hell, you might as well say that we need to remove all but one line,
then bend that line around to wrap and touch itself, making a circle. Then we have no corners.
We don’t have to remove anything, because it is precisely what it is. And, as it is, there is actually a front inside corner, a rear inside corner, an front outside corner, and a rear outside corner.
Had I owned the Pittsburgh Pirates, I could have saved America.
That is a birds eye viw of the plate.
This is obviously talking about the umps/pitcher view, where the left and right extremities of the plate are flat, not cornered.
But. you know, nice try.
I brought sexy back, but they only gave me store credit....
i imagine
that the meaning of the phrase has shifted as many announcers probably don’t know where it came from
wondering what Ortiz did with that game ball...
I call horseshit
and recommend that you immediately burn the book.
What do you need a fancy suit for, Charlie, you ain't got no job to wear it to.
clover_black: Problem solver
That has a ring to it
"Figgins' OBP is still over 40!" -Steve Physioc
by Figgi4life on Dec 2, 2009 8:58 PM PST via mobile up reply actions
I cant believe people dont actually get this
The plate used to be a brick laid out so it was in the shape of a diamond (the same shape as the field). So when a pitcher would hit the outside or inside part of the plate it would actually be hitting the corner of the plate.
Because it was an actual corner
They flattened the sides and catcher side of the plate, so the only corner faces the pitcher.
Now its flat, nor corner.
Come on guys…
I brought sexy back, but they only gave me store credit....
We all get what happened.
The point of the post is not that the shape changed. That is acknowledged. The observation is about how the change in formation yields lingo that is now archaic, yet commonplace.
Had I owned the Pittsburgh Pirates, I could have saved America.
Stop thinking of it as watching a game as a bird and either pitching or umping and we can call it a night.
I brought sexy back, but they only gave me store credit....
Ok wise guy.
Even if we slew the angle of observation using simple geometry, we still have “corners”. We can still percieve “corners”. Pick a new trick.
Had I owned the Pittsburgh Pirates, I could have saved America.
DNFTT
You have to pay the troll toll to get into that boy’s hole.
by shiftyeyedgoat on Dec 2, 2009 9:23 PM PST up reply actions
DNFTT?
Do Not Fuck The Troll?
Do it for Nick '09
by BryanHarvey'sMoustache on Dec 2, 2009 10:08 PM PST up reply actions
Simple advice for everyone....
Whether you’re a blogger, or a hobbit!
YOU DON'T KNOW THE POWER OF THE DARKSIDE.....
Yes because every pitch
that any announcer, or blogger, stated that “just hit the corner” is really referring to JUST one of those four corners!
I mean, because the ball bounced off one of those four, and someone pointed it out.
Good work, keep those diagrams coming.
I brought sexy back, but they only gave me store credit....
This
is
a
bird’s
eye
view.
This book is talking about the LITERAL edges of the plate when at the mount or calling a game.
Stop
posting
bird’s
eye
views
of
this
topic
it
has
no
relevance.
I brought sexy back, but they only gave me store credit....
birds have eyes on the side of their heads
They would be looking at the sides of the batter’s box and the crowd in the stands rather than what is pictured here anyway.
You really are struggling with the whole three-dimensional thing, aren't you?
Are you posting from here?
Had I owned the Pittsburgh Pirates, I could have saved America.
First of all
You must be ignorant if you dont think the world is trying to hide the giant ice wall keeping the oceans in.
I mean its a money making machine, this flat world is, and imagine the chaos if the world found out!
Two, I wear my sunglasses at night in my 2d world, you want to throw down about it?
I brought sexy back, but they only gave me store credit....
When you call a game from behind the plate
you can see the corners and with some experience you can see the strike zone with all it’s angles.
You don’t see many umpires lying on the ground calling games. You do have a good sight of the plate from a "birds eye view more so than your flat ground level look that you so crave in the little discussion.
How’s this for a more realistic view
This:
“What has survived from this configuration is a bit of jargon that today is literally nonsense”
Is what is ridiculous.
The “jargon” makes perfect sense.
What do you need a fancy suit for, Charlie, you ain't got no job to wear it to.
The literal edge of the plate used to be a corner
Hence hitting the corner.
Now its flat, but the terminology didnt change.
Am I doign a poor job of explaining this 200 different ways or is something much much scarier going on?
Did we get a new influx of bloggers from the official Angels website?
I brought sexy back, but they only gave me store credit....
The literal edge of your face
is as dumb as a butt.
by shiftyeyedgoat on Dec 2, 2009 9:29 PM PST up reply actions
NUH UH
Ok ok I think I got this:
The edge of the strike zone is defined by the edge of the plate, left and right, which used to come to a corner.
Now they are flat across those edges.
Ok, I think that did it.
I brought sexy back, but they only gave me store credit....
Look inward, genius.
What do you need a fancy suit for, Charlie, you ain't got no job to wear it to.
What you are doing a poor job of,
is reading WiHaloFan’s original post, and comprehending the quote within the gray box.
It says the same thing you keep repeating. So, in simple terms, we all started with a clear understanding of the concept you keep typing over and over. We got that already, and we have moved beyond the introductory concept. Please feel free to join us any time now.
Had I owned the Pittsburgh Pirates, I could have saved America.
We have? What the hell are we talking about now?
Do it for Nick '09
by BryanHarvey'sMoustache on Dec 2, 2009 10:18 PM PST up reply actions
that pitch hit the outside flat
there…. does that sound better now?
We went from RBI’s to RBI, we can go from corner to flat!
hmm, maybe line is a better word than flat
either way, calling it the outside corner must be why Rex got fired. Arte read the umpire book.
Hit the outside Hudson
you know, like Kate Hudson, ARoids beard?
You get it?
Because she has no boobies?
I brought sexy back, but they only gave me store credit....
that would be "paint" as in
“hitting the paint”
the plate is painted white, and when it goes down the edge, what you call the “outside flat”, it is “hitting the paint”.
They should say
A strike on the inside “edge.” Edge works for me
No matter what happens from here on, it has been a great season.
by Rally Manatee on Dec 2, 2009 10:18 PM PST via mobile reply actions
btw
my band has a song called “painting the corners.” do we have to change the title now because it`s literal nonsense?
No matter what happens from here on, it has been a great season.
by Rally Manatee on Dec 2, 2009 10:20 PM PST via mobile reply actions
78 days
until pitchers and catchers report to spring training
by Rev Halofan on Dec 2, 2009 10:23 PM PST reply actions 1 recs
That will be more exiciting when we know who those pitchers will be...
although the thought its less than 2 months after christmas gets me happy already.
by Balls and Strikes on Dec 2, 2009 10:29 PM PST up reply actions
Yes, the return of baseball sounds great!
I like football. I watch and attend Laker games. But I LOVE baseball. The new year really doesn’t start for me, until pitchers and catchers report for ST.
YOU DON'T KNOW THE POWER OF THE DARKSIDE.....
This thread is gonna turn into a philosophical discussion
I haves hunch
"Figgins' OBP is still over 40!" -Steve Physioc
by Figgi4life on Dec 2, 2009 11:46 PM PST via mobile reply actions
I glad I didn't mention what the book says about...
the black part of the plate and how it’s not part of the strike zone.
Crap! I mentioned it! Now we’re really in for it!
ain't no big ting
all of that black is supposed to be under the dirt. just like the pitchers rubber.
This is quite simple, Phi
you are right, yes. Congratulations. You have ascertained that the previous shape of plate put two corners on either side of the plate which a ball could cross, therefore catching the corner. You are also correct that the plate has changed shape over time. Another point for your astute powers of observation. Commendable indeed.
Furthermore, you are probably again correct in assuming that the language that has stuck around for years in referring to it as “the corner” was likely a remnant of when the plate was of that shape. A wise man you are indeed.
BUT the shape of the plate changing did NOT rid the plate of corners. It’s a non-circular geometric shape. It still has fucking corners. Those corners still exist on the outer and inner portions of the plate. A ball leaving the pitcher’s hand is still capable of ‘catching’ those corners.
So, regardless of whether or not Steve fucking Physioc spent the last 14 years with the Angels referring to a 100 year old now-defunct corner of the plate, or the currently existent corners of the plate that we know today is irrelevant. The ‘jargon’ still makes sense, corners are still there. Who fucking cares, game over.
Everyone gets a cookie AND a sticker, hoo-fucking-ray!
by Caseys Kiss of Death on Dec 3, 2009 6:49 AM PST reply actions
I'm with Wi/Phi
References to “the outside corner” imply strongly a single outside corner, not one of the two corners that are on the outside of the plate. Therefore, the outside corner is an imaginary corner, harking back to the days when home plate was a simple rotated square, as is every other base.
Of course, while we’re using our imaginations, I imagine that if I never read this thread or the aforementioned book from whence this thread sprung, and if I grew up to call major league baseball games, I would refer to pitches that passed over the left and right edge of the plate as “on the corner”, because that’s what I’ve always heard, and I wouldn’t be thinking about one of the five corners on home plate, or the imaginary four corners of the previously existing plate. I’d just be repeating what the guys who came before me said, ‘cause that’s how I’d think it is done. And I’d probably keep up with the run-on sentences.
For some offseason fun, check out the Mac & Windows Space Shooter game I helped make: Insectoid
You run on sentance makes more sense than my 10 drunken rambling posts.
I brought sexy back, but they only gave me store credit....
I cared when I was bored out of my mind and wanted stimulating off-season discussion last night
Big deal?
No, not really.
Big deal when I have nothing to do, and I hate watching basketball?
Hell yes.
I brought sexy back, but they only gave me store credit....
this thread
Is the funniest thing I’ve read in a long time..
by hammerdog on Dec 3, 2009 12:33 PM PST reply actions 1 recs
Well while we're at it...
1) Why do they call it a plate? It doesn’t look like a plate. Have you ever seen any OTHER plate with a black rubber edge?
2) It isn’t shaped like a plate. It’s some kind of wierd 5 sided figure…a polygon? Or has Polly gone?
3) Why do they call it HOME plate? Is this to make the batters feel more secure? Didn’t George Carlin do a whole schtick about this and the difference between football and baseball? Oh yeah…here it is.
4) If it were a plate, wouldn’t it break if you stepped on it ?
Well, try as I might, I can’t think of any other angles. My imagination has been cornered by a lack of plate discipline. How about another Granderson trade thread?
It is a plate because ...
it is not a bag. It is made of solid rubber that is flat like a plate. Unlike bases which used to be stuffed bags.
Does a steel plate break when it is stepped, jumped, or stomped, on?
Sothball was, in fact, right about
here when he posted that.
Had I owned the Pittsburgh Pirates, I could have saved America.
Phi' is much more sane today.
I blame sobriety.
Had I owned the Pittsburgh Pirates, I could have saved America.
...had a hell of a time escaping from Flatland...
…only to land in Facetiousville?
Oh no…it’s going to be a long, cold, lonely winter. The horror…the horror…
Don't panic! Write this down:
When the sun rises tomorrow morning (the weather report for Facitiousville says this will not happen again for a couple of weeks, SO PAY ATTENTION!), drive towards sunrise. You will eventually cross Sarcasm Road. Turn left on Sarcasm.
Heading north you will come to the only light in town (one of those swingy things, dangling from the power line stretched across the intersection). This is the corner of Sarcasm and Tongue-In-Cheek. Don’t go right again, Tongue-In-Cheek becomes a Cul-De-Sac. Turn left. This is West.
After a couple of miles, bear left. If you bear right you will end up on Hyperbole Street. Loopy Lane ain’t much better, but bearing left is better than staying straight and crashing headfirst into the Wishy Washy Fountain in Libertarian Plaza.
So, staying on Loopy Lane, head directly out of town. Follow the billboards.
Had I owned the Pittsburgh Pirates, I could have saved America.
The only umpires book i want to read
is one with Doug Eddings home address in it.
# Halo Heaven Fantasy Champ 2008 #
by UK Halo on Dec 6, 2009 4:17 PM PST reply actions 1 recs
Zing!! We have a winning comment here!!
Courtesy of UK Halo.
YOU DON'T KNOW THE POWER OF THE DARKSIDE.....
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