Why we need another Starting Pitcher
I think it's important to keep in mind that the Angels are operating under budget constraints, perhaps more so than originally let on by our front office. Having said that, Matt Palmer as a 5th starter doesn't cut it. Compare his ERA as a starter and reliever, and you will see two different stories. His record was more a tribute to our offense than it was his pitching. I have nothing against Matt Palmer, but there's a reason why he was a 30 year old rookie FA last offseason. Fans are expecting far too much out of him. There's nothing that makes me believe he can throw 200 innings a year or have an ERA below 5.00 if he remained in a starting role.
I'm not saying we need to make our budget 10 million more and try to get Ben Sheets or Joel Piniero or Erick Bedard next season. What I am saying is that the majority of our minor league pitchers just aren't ready yet.
- Sean O'Sullivan can potentially be a back end starter, but he hasn't had success as a pitcher above A ball and he's only 22. He needs a few years.
- Anthony Ortega may or may not be a major league starter. We have no idea if he can remain healthy and pitch a full year in the bigs.
- Trevor Bell just doesn't have major league stuff. He's about as good as he's going to get right now, which is worthy of long relief, maybe.
-Trevor Reckling has a future in the middle or front of a rotation, but he clearly needs more time and more control. He's only 20 years old.
- Jordan Walden has great stuff, but we have no idea if he can stay healthy enough or even if he's ready for the big leagues.
- Chatwood, Chaffee, Will Smith, Mesa-Martinez, Skaggs, Richards, Joon-Jang are all at least 3 years away.
We need another starter who will be here for a year minimum, maybe two. I am in favor of trading Juan Rivera, sticking Bobby Abreu out in LF and putting Evans/Pettit/GMJ out in RF this year. We would improve defensively, and still be perfectly fine offensively. Here's a list of pitchers I would be interested in trading Rivera for that would bring similar value and would not increase or payroll too large.
Koji Uehara (Baltimore)
Nick Blackburn (Minnesota)
Gil Meche (Kansas City)
Ted Lilly (Chicago)
Bronson Arroyo (Cincinnati)
Jonathan Sanchez (San Francisco)
Any one of those pitchers would make a good 5th starter and Palmer could return to the pen, where he belongs.
This Fan-Post is authored by an independent fan. Tell us what you think and how you feel.
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Agree with the basic premise
Wouldn’t trade Rivera though unless a more adequate replacement was available. Think you would lose too much offensively replacing him with any of the trio that you suggested.
Juan Rivera makes 9 mil over the next two years, and was the second best defensive LF last year in the AL.
Trading him for an Arroyo or Meche is dumb, their salaries dwarf Juancho’s. For GMJ on the other hand, maybe. I honestly believe that O’Sully will be the opening day 5th starter. He’s had 5th guy success at every stop, even if that does mean that he got pushed quickly last year cause of NA’s death.
I think we forget that about these minor league pitchers. O’Sully and Bell should have been in AA all of last year, maybe getting a taste of AAA. Ortega should have been in AAA all year. They would have gotten the work and tutelage they needed to be prepared for the next rung of the ladder. Then, tragedy. Adenhart’s death pushed all of these kids up into a position they weren’t completely ready for. Reckling proved his front end stuff by continuing to be very good. These other guys however are NOT front end guys. As such I don’t expect them to perform well when they get pushed up out of neccesity rather than accomplishment.
And to O’Sully and Bell’s credit, their first couple starts were not bad, they gave us 5 or 6 innings and held the opposing team at bay. At the same time saving wear and tear on the bullpen.
Nick would be proud.
if the 5th starter isn't an in-house arm i think it could be...
pineiro 1 year 5-7 million
sheets 1 year 6-8 million (he wants 10-12, good luck with that)
bedard 1 year 2-3 million w/incentives
mulder 1 year 1-2 million w/incentives
+1
I see no reason to trade for a starter right now. Sign one of the above or maybe Garland.
No panic buttons please
5th Starter making league minimum depth chart:
NaPalmer
Sean-O
TacoBell
Tony-O
Reckling
Taking a stab at a couple of nicknames there Rev?
Nick would be proud.
by halofan4life on Dec 31, 2009 5:26 PM PST up reply actions
I was with you until you said we would improve defense by trading Rivera and using the money pit in RF
Rivera is very good defensively and has a solid bat. GMJ however…. wow. I understand it’s hard to play every few days and in different oufield positions. This guy though, is just sad to watch. He takes bad routes, over-runs fly balls, drops things that are in his glove, tries to be torii and just looks lost, etc… He is not what you call a “good defender.” I cant see taking rivera out of the OF. He is too good and our replacements are too bad.
Anyway, none of the options excite me for a trade. None of them bring much more than what we can expect from our own in house options. I expect Pamer or SOS will be #5 come April and both will do average jobs. I expect we will trade a catcher soon though. Wilson is out of options and carrying 3 catchers doesnt seem like part of the plan so we might as well get something for the guy.
Palmer though, maybe the guy figured it out coming out of the pen. Maybe he can keep up that relief era from now on (we can dream right?). If not, if there is some reason why he can rock it for 3 innings and kill us when he pitches 7, we have a good long man out of the pen and SOS gets his shot. If he stinks, we make a deal at the trade deadline to get someone.
by Balls and Strikes on Dec 31, 2009 5:09 PM PST reply actions
about GMJ,
I think you’re absolutely right. In my assessment, he is an above-average center fielder, a below-average left fielder, and a borderline abysmal right fielder. Every time he plays in right, it seems like he makes some stupid attempt at a sliding catch or makes an embarrassing throw to third, or just flat out drops a routine fly ball.
"Precious in the sight of the Lord, is the death of His Saints." - Psalm 116:15 Rest In Peace, Nick.
by angels4adam on Dec 31, 2009 10:39 PM PST up reply actions
We should go with what we have
to start season. Evaluate them and assess the trade market at deadline. we have no need, barring injury, to take on a so so guy for 4 or 6 mil when we can decide if we have an ace and if not get one at deadline.
3 new 2010 starting LBers via 2010 draft
Confidence breeds success, self-doubt breeds failure
I respectfully disagree with most of you.
Rivera is not as good defensively as his stats suggest. His routes are OK at best, he has no range, and doesn’t dive for anything, Boston last year immediately comes to mind. He does have an absolute cannon for an arm though. Evans is much better than Rivera defensively and GMJ would even be better than Rivera. I will say this though, he’s better than Bobby Abreu, that guy is GOD AWFUL in RF. I’m very disappointed he’s not our DH.
Rivera slumped HARD at the end of the year and was utterly useless in the playoffs. I have no problem trading him for a solid #3-#5 starter who would give us what we need for this year and next year if needed.
A year from now, after Bell, O’Sullivan, Ortega, Reckling and Walden have all had a full year in AAA, I’d be 100% confident in going with an in-house option for the 5th spot. But for now, they aren’t ready to succeed and neither is Matt Palmer.
way to not give Rivera any credit
The Baseball season a long season. If you discredit what Rivera did throughout the whole season than you are full of it. Rivera had a long stretch where he was a vital part of the team. From the end of May to the beginning to September he was batting around .300. The first half he played very well. I am not disagreeing with the fact he did not perform when it counted the most, but to discredit a player and not take into account his importance in the long haul is not appropriate. You are doing Rivera a disservice.
Aybar is a nowhere man, Sitting in his Nowhere Land, Making all his nowhere plans for nobody.
by princeton11loveshalos on Dec 31, 2009 7:32 PM PST up reply actions
That ball in Boston was not within his reach
TV makes this difficult to judge. Diving is pointless if it’s something you don’t normally do and could just wind up injuring you. He is the strongest arm in our outfield and nobody on our bench can replace his offensive production right now.
Game 3 of the ALDS: Who hit a two-out 2 RBI single off of Paplebon in the 8th inning to bring us within striking distance for that 9th inning rally? This same man also stole more bases this Postseason than Chone Figgins.
"You gotta have nuts." - Torii Hunter / Part-Time Nemesis of the HH Reply Function
by Commander_Nate on Jan 1, 2010 5:45 PM PST up reply actions 1 recs
A front-runner for "Laziest analysis of 2009"
Rivera is not as good defensively as his stats suggest. His routes are OK at best, he has no range, and doesn’t dive for anything, Boston last year immediately comes to mind. He does have an absolute cannon for an arm though. Evans is much better than Rivera defensively and GMJ would even be better than Rivera. I will say this though, he’s better than Bobby Abreu, that guy is GOD AWFUL in RF. I’m very disappointed he’s not our DH.
Rivera slumped HARD at the end of the year and was utterly useless in the playoffs. I have no problem trading him for a solid #3-#5 starter who would give us what we need for this year and next year if needed.
This is like one of those drawings in Highlights: Spot the mistakes in the picture (say, there shouldn’t be a toaster in that tree!).
°"Evans is much better than Rivera defensively"? Really? Data for this argument, please.
°Rivera is “not as good as his stats suggest”? In his 11 assists, did the baserunners throw themselves out? We’ll note that the vaunted Ichiro had 5 assists that same season.
°The “not diving for the ball in Boston” complaint is so lame and long ago discredited that it betrays no original thinking whatsoever.
° Rivera slumped, so he should be traded. Gee, then we really goofed by re-signing Abreu, who hit .217 in the month of August, after hitting .380 in July, and he was next to useless in the ALCS.
Yes, Rivera slumped at the end of the season, but he nearly single-handedly carried the team during the period of time when Guerrero and Hunter were both on the DL and the sportswriters were giving the Angels the last rites. Rivera is a streaky hitter. If you want a guy who can hit for both power and consistent average, go dig up Roberto Clemente.
In the meantime, Rivera provides an extraordinary amount of bang for the buck, and lobbying to trade him for the reasons given is so indifferently reasoned it is embarrassing.
"He's not a Rhodes Scholar to begin with''~Theo Epstein, talking about Papelbon
by George Kaplan on Jan 1, 2010 10:56 PM PST up reply actions 2 recs
didn't i just say that?
Aybar is a nowhere man, Sitting in his Nowhere Land, Making all his nowhere plans for nobody.
by princeton11loveshalos on Jan 1, 2010 11:13 PM PST up reply actions
Apparently so
But I was replying to the original post as I read it.
"He's not a Rhodes Scholar to begin with''~Theo Epstein, talking about Papelbon
by George Kaplan on Jan 1, 2010 11:18 PM PST up reply actions
oh don't worry
i was just giving u shit cuz its late out here. Besides your post is much more organized
Aybar is a nowhere man, Sitting in his Nowhere Land, Making all his nowhere plans for nobody.
by princeton11loveshalos on Jan 1, 2010 11:30 PM PST up reply actions
Same time zone as you, cousin
What the hell were we doing up so late?
Oh, yeah…slept in on New Years Day. Wasn’t tired.
"He's not a Rhodes Scholar to begin with''~Theo Epstein, talking about Papelbon
by George Kaplan on Jan 2, 2010 6:54 AM PST up reply actions
SOS had great initial success up here, though more like flash-in-the-pan than anything else--let's hope he can replicate or give him some seasoning time in AAA before his mid-season call-up.
Also, no trading Rivera. That’s just not right at all. :-D Yay sentimentality! It’s all I’ve got left with this team for now! (I kid, I kid, though you get the idea so I hope.)
RIP Nick Adenhart.
"When the Babe tries to call his shot, I hope Nick puts one in his ear."
--RallyMonkey5
Yea, but I don't get it too much with Rivera...
Speaking of Sully—he DID have that no-hitter in AAA. What was said at the top—“he hasn’t had success as a pitcher above A ball”—is a bit misleading.
YOU DONT NEED FIVE SOLID STARTERS TO WIN A WORLD SERIES!!!!!!!
everyone on HH…please think of two seasons.
1. 2002. The Angels win it all on Washburn, Ramon Ortiz and some rookie named John Lackey.
2. The 2009 Yankees. Win it all on Pettite, Burnett and CC.
Point being: TOTALLY OKAY TO NOT HAVE FIVE SOLID STARTERS. Get over it. Who the fuck cares who our fifth starter is. Its 1 out of every five games. 162 divided by five is 32. We can lose all 32 of those games and still have a killer record.
Do it for Nick '09
by BryanHarvey'sMoustache on Jan 1, 2010 1:32 AM PST reply actions
my point being: I bet they said John Lackey wasnt ready yet in 2002...
Do it for Nick '09
by BryanHarvey'sMoustache on Jan 1, 2010 1:39 AM PST up reply actions
Agree. Remember all that talk that he was going to be traded to Detroit for Jeff Weaver for the stretch run?
No panic moves to get someone for the sake of getting someone. We don’t need a higher-priced/overrated name for the 5th slot who will perform just as well as our in-house options.
I'm not so much worried about the World Series.
If we make it there, fine. We’re in great shape with Kaz, Santana, Weaver and Saunders. What I am saying is that by rolling out a pitcher who’s pretty much guaranteed to give up 6 runs in 4 innings of work every 5 days, we may not even get a chance at the World Series. I mean giving up 32 games a year is ALOT.
Not to mention to tax it’s going to put on our bullpen when they have to cover 6 innings in one game. That throws them off for the rest of the week and makes certain relievers unavailable.
We could get so much in return for Rivera, Evans and Pettit deserve an opportunity, Bell, Ortega, Reckling, Walden and SOS could use one more year of seasoning. This just makes so much sense to me.
But I definitely understand the other side of the argument, I mean that is a lot of depth. It’s just that a good majority of it is either not ready or may never be ready. I look forward to the day when Reckling and Walden are in the rotation, but I’m just not so confident in the futures of SOS, Bell and Ortega.
No new FAs.
I’m good with what we have. SOS or NaPalm will step up and be better than any FA we could get for a 5th starter. And hell no on the trades. Other teams always seem to want to fleece us.
Though, on a side note, Seattle is seemingly putting together a pretty good looking team. As long as Bradley doesn’t implode. Let’s hope he does.
Happy Birthday to the ground!
I'm ok with what we have too, but
I’m not 2 happy.
But hey,
magic worked in 02…so why not in 2010
It's Always Somethin'

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