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Around SBN: 2012 Africa Cup Of Nations Final

Is it a true "World" Series?

During the 2002 soccer World Cup, I had a debate with a British neighbor about the validity of the term "World Series" to crown the best team in the world. My limey friend passionately argued that the WS isn't true to its name, since teams from Japan and elsewhere don't participate. I argued that the best players in the world come to MLB, and thus the WS is the championship for the teams with the best players in the world.

No matter who wins this year's World Baseball Classic, the event does bring to the forefront the fact that national teams are competitive. It's debatable whether the structure of the WBC is fair enough to determine the truly better teams, but given the competitiveness of the event in 2009 I think it's worth asking the question, "Should the World Series be renamed?"

Poll
Should the World Series be renamed?
Yes
16 votes
No
70 votes

86 votes | Poll has closed

This Fan-Post is authored by an independent fan. Tell us what you think and how you feel.

Comment 41 comments  |  0 recs  | 

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National teams are hardly competitive

IF it was a 162 Game season between Nations and the guys were being paid and pressured the WBC would then look like the spring training affair that it is – and i LIKE the WBC.

Also agree with you about the WORLD series – the best players form the world compete to pay in that series, why not call it the world series?

by Rev Halofan on Mar 20, 2009 10:29 PM PDT reply actions  

exactly

the “world” teams aren’t a match for MLB teams (when healthy… unlike the WBC in March).
I’d like the idea of the WBC being given more merit if our guys weren’t forced to try to compete at the highest level after 2 weeks of training.

so, to answer your question, no, it should not be renamed.

Kotch would've had that.

by howiestheman on Mar 20, 2009 11:07 PM PDT up reply actions  

World cup?

Soccer?

Please, don’t mention that in the same context as baseball.

But I did like GA as your most favorite Angel.

Angel Pitching, Angel Defense - get past that.

by vladtheimpaler on Mar 21, 2009 1:32 AM PDT reply actions  

oh, and we still rule at baseball

Because no other culture accepts everyone like we do.

That’s why it is still the World Series.

Angel Pitching, Angel Defense - get past that.

by vladtheimpaler on Mar 21, 2009 1:36 AM PDT up reply actions  

The first year of the "world" series was?

The world series was named in what year? At that time, were players from around the world playing in MLB? Just curious.

(March 28, USA vs El Salvador in World Cup qualifying match).

since 1961

by Chompo on Mar 21, 2009 6:32 AM PDT reply actions  

world cup

basically a warm up for the US. El Salvador is a joke.

by HALO_86 on Mar 21, 2009 10:41 AM PDT up reply actions  

early 1900,before 1912 i believe…
I agree,there is no need to rename the event.. You have the “worlds” best players representing cities in the US…It is a fitting name for all Asian,American,Latin,European baseball players…

by raven191 on Mar 21, 2009 12:24 PM PDT up reply actions  

I had read someplace...

that the first series was sponsored by the New York World newspaper, and that’s where the term “World” series came from. Kind of like how the WBC bowl games are named now a days.

Don’t know if this is true, haven’t looked into it.

I was uncool before uncool was cool.

by WiHaloFan on Mar 21, 2009 7:13 AM PDT reply actions  

I meant BCS

Yikes.

I was uncool before uncool was cool.

by WiHaloFan on Mar 21, 2009 9:55 AM PDT up reply actions  

Epic typo.

~Till the Halo burns out...

by Zu Long on Mar 21, 2009 11:20 AM PDT up reply actions  

B.S.

Until we get a Jamaican starting rotation, it ain’t a World nutink, mon!

by Stirrups on Mar 22, 2009 11:45 AM PDT reply actions  

yeswecan

I have always made this argument for the World Series being so named. It is perfectly valid.

I always get the feeling that people who argue against the World Series being called as such look at it like MLB is being unjustly Americentric, i.e. America is the center of the world. Well, they are half right. The U.S., like it or not, is the center of the baseball world.

by Higz on Mar 22, 2009 3:01 PM PDT reply actions  

I think that the point my compatriot may have been driving at...

…is that to name it the “World series”, and to name the winners “World Champions” is somewhat premature since they haven’t played a team from outside the U.S. No team from outside North America is represented, and for the most part, the games are attended by the residents of 2 countries.

As the WBC demonstrated last time, and continues to demonstrate this time, MLB does not operate a monopoly on baseball competence / excellence. There are perfectly decent teams, and some exceptional players, that have yet to be witnessed in the major leagues.

If you want to name the champions of MLB as “World champions”, rather than the national champions of an American league, then they should play competitive games against national champions of other baseball playing countries. Indeed, in the many of the world’s favourite sports, there are tournaments to determine regional or world champions (for example the Champions League, Copa Libertadores in football).

It may very well be that the U.S. champs wipe the floor with the team from Japan, South Korea and God knows where else, but underdogs do prevail from time to time – that’s why we watch sports. If it was so easy to predict results, then why play the game.

And at the risk of stating the blindingly obvious, and offending the largely U.S. audience here, if there’s one thing that broadly offends the rest of the world, it’s American assumptions / proclamations of superiority (even if in some rare cases they are correct). No other country declares the winners of their national championship in any sport “World champions”, and yet you guys do it in pretty much every sport you play, despite the evidence of competence / excellence in other parts of the world. To every other nation, it just confirms their assumptions about America’s attitude to the rest of the world.

It does you no favours.

I see red people

by The Limey on Mar 22, 2009 5:30 PM PDT reply actions  

Umm...

1) “One thing that broadly offends the rest of the world…”. Who appointed you official spokesperson for “the rest of the world”? If there was an election, somehow I missed it.
2) Unless I am living in a bubble, the only sport I am aware of where we “declare” ourselves “World Champions” is baseball. Please name another sports competition where the USA proclaims ourselves “world champions”. Certainly not football, soccer, basketball, swimming, volleyball, track & field, Lacrosse…
3) Nobody appointed me “Spokesman for American Baseball”, but I have never believed this makes us champions of baseball “Throughout the World”. Maybe the “rest of the world” – or what you perceive as “…the rest of the world” has a bit of an inferiority complex wholly unattributable to anything happening in the USA? Just maybe?

by sothball on Mar 22, 2009 10:35 PM PDT up reply actions  

Basketball they claim "World"

They don’t say “NBA Finals Winners.”

by Downing Rules on Mar 23, 2009 10:45 AM PDT up reply actions  

Maybe I don't listen hard enough, but what I recall is...

“…the (insert team) are (insert year) NBA Champions!” Maybe I am not provincial enough, but – given the level of competition in the world, I do not believe the NBA champ automatically qualifies as world champion. And if a broadcaster or others made that announcement, their opinion would be degraded in my view. Do you have an example of where the NBA champ was declared world champion?

Even assuming what you wrote is true, that is a grand total of 2 sports where the dastardly Americans proclaim “World Domination”. That is vastly short of the this benchmark," …and yet you guys do it in pretty much every sport you play".

BTW, I don’t include “the World Series of Poker” for consideration.

by sothball on Mar 23, 2009 12:17 PM PDT up reply actions  

I was referring to your 3 major sports leagues - NBA, MLB, NFL...

…and 2 of the 3 still refer to their champion as world champion. The NFL ,which stopped the practice sometime in the 90s (there’s plenty of memorobilia to be found from the 70s and 80s with the title on it) is probably the one of those 3 sports leagues that has the best claim to their champion being ‘World Champion’, since no-one else really plays the game. It begs the question, why don’t baseball and basketball follow suit? Particularly when there are well developed national leagues around the world that play those sports.

For reference the websites of the current NBA and MLB champions.

I see red people

by The Limey on Mar 23, 2009 1:02 PM PDT up reply actions  

Point taken on the link to the Celtics site.

That is still a far removed from proclaiming world champions in “…pretty much every sport you play”.
As for baseball, it started as the “World Series” and the tradition should continue.
Oh well…this isn’t really worth the effort ,given other issues in the world.

by sothball on Mar 23, 2009 1:50 PM PDT up reply actions  

Face it...

we are an arrogant bunch of people. He’s right.

GO USA!

by Downing Rules on Mar 23, 2009 3:19 PM PDT up reply actions  

woops

I had to borrow your point about the inferiority complex

by Higz on Mar 23, 2009 11:36 AM PDT up reply actions  

You would have a great argument...

if it were only Americans playing in MLB.

Clearly that’s not the case.

The best in the WORLD play here in the States. The winning team is therefore crowned WORLD champions. The fact that the games are held in the U.S. (and Canada) is immaterial.

I still do not understand why this is such a tough concept for people to wrap their heads around.

To your last point, at the risk of offending the non-U.S. audience, I would say never underestimate the power of an inferiority complex to create anti-American sentiment. Oh, and an Englishman lecturing Americans about “assumptions / proclamations of superiority” is pretty rich.

by Higz on Mar 23, 2009 11:31 AM PDT up reply actions  

You're missing the point...

…it doesn’t matter if you think that most of the best players in the world are here. The fact is (as Japan amply demonstrated last night) not all of them are. Your ‘assumption’ that MLB would win is not based on hard evidence – since the world series winner hasn’t played competitive games against the winners of other national championships, therefore your ‘proclamation of superiority’ is based upon nothing more than hot air.

To dismiss the champions of other national leagues without playing the games is entirely without merit, and something that no other country that I’m aware of does. Even when you get down to popular national sports that are one nation sports (for example Aussie rules football), they still call the winner the national champion, not the World Champion.

And as for me lecturing you, I’m merely pointing out what your leagues are doing, accurately. I haven’t resorted to any assumptions or proclamations of superiority on behalf of Old Blighty yet, despite the apparent limitations of my nationality.

I see red people

by The Limey on Mar 23, 2009 3:49 PM PDT up reply actions  

Hot air? Try common sense.

MLB teams have scouts scouring the globe for talent and have international recruitment programs in place looking for the best there is in the baseball world. Once found, these international players flock to the U.S. and MLB to enjoy the highest salaries and highest level of competition they will ever find. This is the pinnacle of achievement. These players, along with the most talented Americans, make up 30 teams containing the best baseball has to offer. One of these teams wins the World Series.

But hey, maybe that’s just not enough proof of a world champion. Let’s make this team who just won the Series play the team that just won the [insert country here] national title so we can be fair to the rest of the world even though the players on [insert country here]’s weren’t good enough to be in the Majors.

Is this what you’re suggesting? Or do you want MLB to just change the name from “World” to “National”?

Obviously, we are not going to change each other’s opinion on this matter, but hopefully you will think twice about dismissing the naming convention as mere American ignorance or egotism.

by Higz on Mar 23, 2009 4:45 PM PDT up reply actions  

The clue is in the names...

…the National League and the American League. It’s a national competition. End of story.

As I’ve stated half a dozen times already, you have to play the games to make the claim. You can just assume that your team is better because it looks better on paper, otherwise, why play sports at all? And it’s not so much about being fair to the rest of the world as much as not making a claim that makes you look like an ass.

Just because you’re footing the bill doesn’t make it a championship of the world.

(And no, I don’t think we’re going to agree on this one)

I see red people

by The Limey on Mar 23, 2009 5:31 PM PDT up reply actions  

Do you get the sense that this same argument once held for soccer?

And the only solution was to split the contests into World Cup and Champions Cup?

by Stirrups on Mar 23, 2009 5:41 PM PDT up reply actions  

End of story? Hardly.

Higz is spot on regarding the players and their origins.

Perhaps the fact the NBL holds a yard sale for their players every year should help convince you as well.

Play Wood already. Willits sucks.

by hauldog on Mar 23, 2009 5:50 PM PDT up reply actions  

He may well be...

…but that still doesn’t make it a world championship. Since 1. Not all of the best players in the world ARE in MLB (though I admit it’s currently a majority) and 2. The teams of no country outside America (+ Toronto) are represented within the championship.

Indeed the fact that MLB are plugging so much money into Japan each year (and in turn funding the development of that league) will make this claim ever LESS credible with each passing year – as the Japanese national team are beginning to demonstrate.

I see red people

by The Limey on Mar 23, 2009 6:19 PM PDT up reply actions  

You seem fixated on the teams locations

Who cares. The teams employ international superstars. Not regional or local stars.

The Japanese National Team doesn’t really prove anything. 1) No team in the NPB is anywhere near as good as the national team. 2) The US team was hardly a gathering of our best players.

It is the PLAYERS that make it a World Series, not the teams.

Play Wood already. Willits sucks.

by hauldog on Mar 23, 2009 6:28 PM PDT up reply actions  

Well stated.

I was struggling to express my perspective this clearly.

by Higz on Mar 23, 2009 6:33 PM PDT up reply actions  

You got me there.

I piggyback the foundation you built.

Play Wood already. Willits sucks.

by hauldog on Mar 23, 2009 6:35 PM PDT up reply actions  

Well since we are talking about locations...

…that seems reasonable. It’s either a national title or an international title.

I am pointing out that the teams are all from one country and you are suggesting that you can have a world championship just involving the teams from one nation.

To give a counter-example, the best footballers in the world (predominantly) play in the UEFA champions league – the cream of Europe, South America, Africa, Asia etc are all represented. And yet we name the champions, the champions of Europe. When we get around to naming a side champions of the world FIFA invites representatives from regions around the world to compete in a tournament and the winner gets the title – it’s quite a simple concept really.

I see red people

by The Limey on Mar 23, 2009 6:39 PM PDT up reply actions  

Rename it "World Series of Soccer" (football, futbol, whatever).

I doubt any citizens of the USA will take the least offense (or offence as you may prefer). There are better things to do, and more important issues over which to be extended.

by sothball on Mar 23, 2009 7:28 PM PDT up reply actions  

Whatever. We disagree (vastly).

As an aside here, I wanted to clarify something.

When you say “despite the apparent limitations of my nationality” it makes me think you misunderstood me when I said, “Oh, and an Englishman lecturing Americans about "assumptions / proclamations of superiority" is pretty rich.”

I was NOT asserting that the English are inferior to Americans (is that what you thought I meant?). I was actually trying to point out the irony of an Englishman criticizing a perceived sense of American superiority given England’s history of monarchy and imperialism/colonialism.

by Higz on Mar 23, 2009 6:00 PM PDT up reply actions  

No, I understood you clearly...

…when I talked about “assumptions / proclamations of superiority” I was basing it on the evidence before us – the claim to be “World Champions”.

Whereas you were using a rather tired and dated national stereotype to rather weakly suggest a sense of irony – hence my sarcasm. Apologies if it went over your head.

I see red people

by The Limey on Mar 23, 2009 6:27 PM PDT up reply actions  

"Apologies if it went over your head."

You just couldn’t resist trying to patronize me even though I was bending over backward to explain that I wasn’t taking a jab at your nationality. Classy of you.

As far as the “tired and dated national stereotype,” YOU, my friend, were the one who politicized the discussion in the first place with the TIRED and DATED stereotype of the Ugly American. I make no judgment on your country’s history other than pointing out that the sense of English superiority is pretty damn close to the heart of it. I leave it to others to decide whether the sense of English superiority has largely turned out to be a force for good or for bad.

As for me, Jack Aubrey is one of my literary heroes. So figure that one out!

by Higz on Mar 23, 2009 6:52 PM PDT up reply actions  

Leave it as it is

I understand where people from other countries are coming from, and at the same time, I don’t really care. When the first World Series was held in 1903, no other country could field a team that could come close to holding up against the ’03 Boston Americans. So they were without a doubt the best team in the world. Regardless of the quality of play in other countries today, no other league can compete with the American and National Leagues, so the winner of the World Series is still the best in the world, even if there is no playoff between MLB, NPB, and KBO teams.

Also, how many times have we seen a failed prospect or a journeyman from the United States go to play in Japan and become a 40 home run hitting monster?

by RICangelfan on Mar 22, 2009 6:48 PM PDT reply actions  

As a Canadian, I must say that there is no better place to play sports then the US… All the worlds best players per sport (maybe minus soccer) come to the US to showcase there skills. \
You have the best baseball players in the world playing MLB (minus a Cuban here and a Japanese there)
 It is a world series because you have the best on the planet competing in the 2 best leagues in the world.. a world championship series..
Nobody from the US that is truly capable of competiting in the ML is going to go play in Japan for the same amount of money… It is all better in the US..
It is the same in hockey— you have leagues in Europe that have players who could play NHL hockey,but the best players come to play in the best league- the Malkin,Ovechkins,Crosbys,Kiprusoffs and such… Proving you have what it takes to play and be the best..

by raven191 on Mar 23, 2009 12:34 PM PDT up reply actions  

Enough talent competes in American professional baseball from around the world

for it to be called a “world” champion. People come from all over the world to play in our league…the same cannot be said for any other baseball league in the world. That the team name is “Los Angeles” or “New York” or “Minnesota” is irrelevant, since the players putting on the uniform are from the Dominican, Japan, Venezuela, Australia, the Netherlands, Korea, or any other number of countries.

And if you want proof of America being the ‘real place’ that people from around the world wish to compete in baseball? The only people who go to play in Japan are guys like Tuffy Rhodes who go from benchwarmer to all-time greats. The Gods of baseball in Japan come over here and meet extremely mixed success (for every Ichiro and Dice-K, there are 5 Kaz Matsuis or Hideki Irabus.

by Caseys Kiss of Death on Mar 23, 2009 7:14 PM PDT reply actions  

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