Darin Erstad or John Lackey?

by Rev Halofan on Mar 23, 2009 4:32 PM PDT in News Comment 55 comments

One of these players will be ranked #11 in our Top 100 Angels countdown and the other will be admitted to the All-Time Top Ten. The choice for immortality falls with you...

Poll

Which One of These Angel Greats Should be Included in the All Time Top 10?

Darin Erstad

200 votes

John Lackey

164 votes

364 votes | Poll has closed

0 recs | Comment 55 comments

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Comments

Might want to edit Erstad's name in the poll.

~Till the Halo burns out...

by Zu Long on Mar 22, 2009 9:19 PM PDT reply actions 0 recs

Thanks, Zu

For the record, all votes for “ERSATD” will still be counted.

by Rev Halofan on Mar 22, 2009 9:27 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs

This is extremely tough for me.......

but I voted for Ersty………..

and it pretty much boiled down to the fact that Ersty was an everyday player…..and John takes the hill every 5 days………and both men work hard and bust their asses for their teams.

A person who performs good Karma (deeds) is always held in high esteem
12/19/08 - Thank you KLJ for coming into my life.

by norcaliangelsfan on Mar 22, 2009 10:03 PM PDT reply actions 0 recs

Based on that Norcali..

You wouldn’t trade an everyday player like say Erick Aybar, for a guy who takes the hill once evry 5 days, say Tim Lincecum?

by statlr on Mar 23, 2009 6:07 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs

I would if I had a guy like Brandon Wood to take Aybar's place..........

it would ultimately depend on who I would have replace said player……..

in this case….i would most defintely let Aybar go for Lincecum.

A person who performs good Karma (deeds) is always held in high esteem
12/19/08 - Thank you KLJ for coming into my life.

by norcaliangelsfan on Mar 23, 2009 6:43 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs

Lackey has now whined two times more than Erstad ever did...

easy choice! I hate whiners!

There are three things in my life which I really love: God, my family, and baseball. The only problem - once baseball season starts, I change the order around a bit. -- Al Gallagher

by K3YEROUT on Mar 22, 2009 10:05 PM PDT reply actions 0 recs

that Erstad has nearly doubled Lackey’s vote total. Yeah, Darin Erstad played hard and was a good defender at multiple positions, but he was just not that good an overall player. John Lackey is so much better at his job. For his career, Erstad was a below-average hitter. And if all you’re looking at is 2002, well then, it’s still debatable. Erstad, on the other hand, had one really good season and that’s it. Frankly, it’s not even debatable. Lackey by a mile.

by jjackflash on Mar 22, 2009 10:19 PM PDT reply actions 2 recs

I think it's probably about the achievements.

Erstad has a historically awesome season (2000) and has done something no-one else in the history baseball has (won gold gloves playing OF and IF). Lackey is a great pitcher but hasn’t done anything historically significant outside of helping us win the World Series in 2002, which Erstad was also a big part of.

~Till the Halo burns out...

by Zu Long on Mar 22, 2009 10:49 PM PDT up reply actions 1 recs

Let's not forget

Erstad played the last half or so of the WS with a broken hand, including that HR in Game 6, and we didn’t even hear about it for several months.

If Erstad failed to fulfil his early promise, it’s only because he could never give less than all he had all the time. I’ve always thought of him as Eck with a much greater level of natural talent (not to take anything away from Eck). Ersty left the best part of himself in the Angel Stadium outfield, and in consideration of that I would consider myself ungrateful to criticize his general ineffectiveness at the plate in his last years here. He did still tend to step up his game in the postseason; as I recall, he batted .500 in the 2004 ALDS.

". . .and the young lions will lock horns!" -- Ron Fairly, from an Angels telecast

by rspencer on Mar 22, 2009 11:48 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs

Completely agree...

Lackey by a HUGE margin.

Jim Scully

Jim Scully Home
Haloville - Land of the Halos

by jimmuscomp on Mar 22, 2009 11:49 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs

Wow Jim, you REALLY hate Erst huh

Phys: Well, Coon doesn't have a lot of power but he's a good bunter
Coon: F$%# That!
Thanks Zu

by halofan4life on Mar 23, 2009 6:32 AM PDT up reply actions 0 recs

HUGE

Give me tangibles over intangibles (not that there’s anything wrong with Big John’s intangibles).

by cj1646 on Mar 23, 2009 7:57 AM PDT up reply actions 0 recs

Lackey

It is close but he is the more significant Angel

Play Wood already. Willits sucks.

by hauldog on Mar 22, 2009 10:34 PM PDT reply actions 0 recs

Erstad because

To me, his game six HR officially broke the curse.

When Henderson hit the HR in ‘86, I knew the series was over (even though the game wasn’t) and I couldn’t bear to watch anymore.

When Ersty hit his HR in 2002, I knew right then the Angels would win it all. I knew the Angels wouldn’t rip my heart out this time, even though we still trailed.

He brought closure to my angst.

by The Clyde on Mar 22, 2009 11:16 PM PDT reply actions 0 recs

BUT

if Ramon Ortiz had been pitching the next night, the curse would have reappeared.

by Rev Halofan on Mar 22, 2009 11:18 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs

Angels would have scored 20

by The Clyde on Mar 22, 2009 11:22 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs

don’t screw with my mythology

by The Clyde on Mar 22, 2009 11:25 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs

EVERYBODY KNEW… that Ortiz was not going to pitch game 7 due to excessive suck-i-tude. Heck the Halos caught a break getting Hernandez instead of Reuter. Thanks again, Dusty!

by Downing Rules on Mar 23, 2009 11:02 AM PDT up reply actions 0 recs

Erstad

If for nothing else then that Lackey’s career here isn’t over yet and it might end on a sour note. Though it is an incredibly tough call given that they’re both nails.

by neochoa on Mar 22, 2009 11:50 PM PDT reply actions 1 recs

I tend to believe the vote is ...

based on “up til today” stats (well, as of October 2008, at least, as yesterday’s spring training wind tunnel didn’t count!). Anything Lackey does to soil his career going forward will be reflected in the 2011 version of “Halos Heaven Top 100 Angels”

by Downing Rules on Mar 23, 2009 11:04 AM PDT up reply actions 0 recs

Lackey

May be suffering because of a perceived lack of willingness to sign an extension at a good price (for the Angels), and the fact that he may be gone next year.

Angel Pitching, Angel Defense - get past that.

by vladtheimpaler on Mar 23, 2009 12:44 AM PDT reply actions 0 recs

Sometimes I don't vote in the poles,

and just move on to the results.

This time I forced myself make a decision, albeit tough.

I voted for Erstad……..and was very surprised to see the results.

by wumbug on Mar 23, 2009 6:09 AM PDT reply actions 0 recs

The Poles appreciate your vote in this poll, as do the Americans. Are either Lackey or Erstad Polish? ;)

by Downing Rules on Mar 23, 2009 11:05 AM PDT up reply actions 0 recs

Can't believe I did that.

by wumbug on Mar 23, 2009 3:53 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs

The reasons for voting for Ersty are really weak:...

…intangibles, one game, broken hand, Lackey MAY be gone next year, one big year.

Reasons for voting for Big John (besides his great intangibles): actual contributions.

by cj1646 on Mar 23, 2009 8:01 AM PDT reply actions 0 recs

Actually, Erstad had four fairly productive seasons at the plate

and in 2002, his defense was so good in CF that he didn’t need to hit well to be a huge contributor. He was that good.

So at least 5 seasons where he contributed at least a pretty good season.

Lackey has 2002, where he was good, then in 2003 and 2004 he backslid and had to adjust. He didn’t become a really good pitcher until 2005, and he has been ever since.

So 5 at least pretty good seasons for Lackey as well.

There’s a reason Rev had to put it to a vote.

~Till the Halo burns out...

by Zu Long on Mar 23, 2009 8:24 AM PDT up reply actions 0 recs

I remember Lackey's mental meltdowns in 2003 and 2004.

He would get going, then have ONE INNING that would just KILL his outing. He would get all riled up on the mound. It was ugly.

by Downing Rules on Mar 23, 2009 11:12 AM PDT up reply actions 0 recs

Besides Ersty's big year,...

…he only broke .800 OPS twice: in his second and third years. And anyone who has studied the matter knows that no amount of defense is going to justify a .702 OPS in center field.

by cj1646 on Mar 24, 2009 6:15 AM PDT up reply actions 0 recs

Really?

Like which people who have studied the matter? Because even Baseball Prospectus gives Erstad a WARP (Wins Above Replacement player) of 6.4 in 2002.

Just so you know, that’s better than Vlad’s WARP in any season with the Angels except 2004. THAT’s how good Ersty’s defense was. The fourth “decent” offensive year was 2004, when he put up a .746 OPS at first. Not good for a first baseman perhaps, but serviceable, and again, his insanely good first base defense helped close the gap.

~Till the Halo burns out...

by Zu Long on Mar 24, 2009 11:00 AM PDT up reply actions 0 recs

OK

A little hyperbole on the “no amount.” He had a fluke defensive year statistically. It was far and away his best, which is strange for a consistently excellent defender such as Ersty. Hence is 2002 WARP is second only to that of his big year, and his third best is a distant third.

.746 is not “serviceable” for a first baseman. The defense helps.

by cj1646 on Mar 25, 2009 8:24 AM PDT up reply actions 0 recs

were you born on October 27, 2002?

Because from that point onward, yes, Lackey has contributed more. But, Erstad played amazing defense and had a 200+ hit season in 2000 and became the 1st player in MLB history to win a gold glove in BOTH the OF and the IF.

Does John have a Cy Young? 20 game winner? When he reaches those milestones, then this comparion would be a no-brainer. As for now, Lackey is HIGH UP on the top-100 list due to stepping into the limelight of game 7 and pitching like a stud, and more recently he has been one of the top pitchers on several division winners. But, he has yet to eclipse Erstad in my most humble opinion.

by Downing Rules on Mar 23, 2009 11:11 AM PDT up reply actions 0 recs

Why does Lackey have to win a Cy Young or 20 games? Shouldn't then Erstad then have to win an MVP or at least have a productive season at the plate once in the six years?

by snowhor on Mar 23, 2009 8:14 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs

I was born in 1961.

The same year as the Angels.

by cj1646 on Mar 24, 2009 6:16 AM PDT up reply actions 0 recs

BTW

I do like the man (Ersty).

by cj1646 on Mar 23, 2009 8:02 AM PDT reply actions 0 recs

Yesterady I would have voted for Lackey

But seeing as how he’s turning into a bitch right before our eyes, I voted for Erstad.

I don’t begrudge him his negotiating stance. Just don’t be a little bitch about it in the press.

by LA Seitz on Mar 23, 2009 8:05 AM PDT reply actions 0 recs

The image of Johnny Estrada being "Fosse'd" into oblivion

makes me wanna vote for, as Jim Rome would say, The Redass.

by PieceOfAase on Mar 23, 2009 10:44 AM PDT reply actions 0 recs

That was an AMAZING hit...

jeez…for a freakin’ punter, Erstad laid the hurt on Estrada. It was a vicious hit. “Git outta my way!” Then he casually taps home plate with his palm after the ball is jarred loose. Gutsy. Glad we didn’t have to play Atlanta again that year, otherwise, there might have been some retaliation.

by Downing Rules on Mar 23, 2009 11:14 AM PDT up reply actions 0 recs

Cornhusker

by The Clyde on Mar 23, 2009 10:46 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs

I have to go with Erstad

Why… because Chompo, my brother, saw Erstad tag up on a pop fly to super duper shallow right field that was caught by the 2nd baseman and score. The next day at the men’s hard ball league, Chompo was standing at 3rd, and there was pop up in the general direction as Erstad’s except that it was a few paces of the dirt, Chompo tags up and runs like an Albatross towards home plate… The ball arrives at least 10 strides ahead of said Albatross… Like Pete Rose at the “All Star game” Chompo massacres the city league catcher. The catcher holds onto the ball and Chompo is thown out at home. Of course, chaos breaks out at home plate, the benches clear. Everybody is running around with nothing to do. Chompo is thrown out of the game in the 1st inning of the game. When we all asked him “WTF?” He answered with a calm of a mob boss ordering a hit, “I was going Ersty Berzerker.”

Darin Erstad

"why do you we still have quitlin?" -VladdyG

by cupie on Mar 23, 2009 5:50 PM PDT reply actions 0 recs

Sell the Rights

That is the opening 20 minutes of THE CHOMPO STORY.

by Rev Halofan on Mar 23, 2009 6:05 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs

This is easy...

Outside of 1 fluke season, Erstad was a mediocre player. Yes a great fielder…one of the best ever maybe….but as a hitter…there were probably 25 better hitters in Angels history (or more), once you throw out the fluke.

A Gold Glove CF, who hits even a little has value, a lot of value, and if that was all he did, maybe he rates this high…but a Gold Glove 1B who hits like Erstad actually hurts the team. No way did his glove save the runs he lost as a 1st sacker when he didn’t hit.

Lackey, on the other hand,has been a front line starter for years now. He is far more important as a pitcher, and among pitchers than Ersty ever was as a hitter.

Edmonds was miles better than Ersty, except in getting his uniform dirty.

by statlr on Mar 23, 2009 6:02 PM PDT reply actions 0 recs

but but but

I would take Lackey as well, but your argument confuse “The Top Statistical Angels” with “The Top 100 Angels” an Erstad shaping the team culture toward being focused on winning and giving i everything was the polar opposite of the cancerous tumor known as Edmonds.

Erstad is an ANGEL, Edmonds is just a memory.

by Rev Halofan on Mar 23, 2009 6:08 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs

Not true

He was a very good baseball player in 1997 and 1998, on the way to stardom. Injuries cut down his effectiveness.

by mattwelch on Mar 23, 2009 7:29 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs

Also

Erstad wasn’t a bitch like Edmonds.

by LA Seitz on Mar 23, 2009 8:49 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs

Ersty

Stats are part of it; he was an Angel in spirit & soul

"People ask me what I do in winter when there's no baseball. I'll tell you what I do. I stare out the window and wait for spring".
Rogers Hornsby

by ladybug on Mar 23, 2009 6:16 PM PDT reply actions 1 recs

WORD UP SISTER

by Higz on Mar 23, 2009 6:17 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs

I see your Ersty picture

and raise you a Lackey one:

Oh, and I voted Lackey. And it’s so ridiculously not even close. Not in the same ballpark here. Not the same league even. Not even the same fucking sport.

Seriously, this question might as well be “Jorge Fabregas or Tim Salmon” to me.

117 ERA+ (and rising) > 94 OPS+ (and sinking)

by Caseys Kiss of Death on Mar 23, 2009 6:35 PM PDT up reply actions 2 recs