scioscia over manages again
whats wrong with allowing weaver to pitch a complete game? or at least 8 innings? I knew once he pulled Weaver who pitched great after the first inning our bullpen was done. How many times did scioscia allow his starters to throw a complete game last year? How many times will our startes have a lead and throw a great 5th , 6th and 7th inning and out great manager has to pul our starter to allow the bullpen to throw the game away.
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I feel you man
but you cannot compare to last year. Our bullpen got the job done. This year though I think he is trying to save another guy for the DL. But I agree I think he is pulling starters to early and is relying waaaaay to much on our thing out there called a bullpen.
R.I.P. Nick Adenhart you will forever be missed...
102 pitches
Maybe we should just let Weaver pitch until his arm falls off. Great idea.
by HungryHunter on May 1, 2009 7:52 PM PDT reply actions 3 recs
Glad you're not the manager
1.Weaver wasn’t on track for a complete game
2. It’s May 1st
3. The season ends October 4th
4. We (Me & I assume The Soth) would like Weaver to continue to pitch effectively every 5th game
5. Starters usually don’t pitch too well 5 days after throwing 120+ pitches
6. Weaver threw 102 pitches in 6 innings.
Those are just some quick reasons I could think of
*Ade-Rock 34*
by TheTypingFiend on May 1, 2009 7:53 PM PDT reply actions 3 recs
there are about 10 more reasons you didn't think of, too! ;)
In a year of such turmoil, whining still abounds.
by Downing Rules on May 1, 2009 8:04 PM PDT up reply actions
WTY is a flyball pitcher in a wind tunnel...
…lucky he only gave up one HR…anything more was pushing our luck!
Miss you Nick...! RIP
oh puhleez
He’s lost 4 pitchers. You just don’t go to minor league teams and eenie miney mo the next great starting/relief pitching. Our bullpen was devastated by injuries.
Weaver isn’t a marathon pitcher. He threw what, 30 pitches the first inning?
RIP Nick
Not much to complain about Scioscia today..
he marched out a nasty nasty lineup and it still scored NINE RUNS, even though I was inspired to hold a rally in front of the stadium by myself requesting the Angels shorten Sciosc’s leash.
This was on the bull-shit-pen and they need to get their act together.
Also, Frankie … I miss you, man.
In a year of such turmoil, whining still abounds.
Quinlan is utterly WORTHLESS
Yet, somehow, Soth sees him as an integral part of this team.
DFA Q ………. Please!
"Quitlin" was worthless tonight.
izzy came in and picked up his slack for that PH AB.
In a year of such turmoil, whining still abounds.
by Downing Rules on May 1, 2009 8:20 PM PDT up reply actions
Not easy for the Sosh...
When 4 starters and your best reliever so far (olly) are on the DL… if you want to compound the problem yeah lets have Weave throw til his right arm is dead he’s got the left arm… CMON man. Sosh has the hardest job in the world right now when he’s got to go to his bullpen and see Rodriguez… uhh no.. Shields… struggling… Speier… cookie man… Arredondo… wild thing.. and Fuentes… soft tosser. how do you pick from that bunch right now ? oh i forgot to add Denny’s new spokesman Bulger… he of the grand slam fame
Meet me @ the budweiser patio
by BigBangRobbDawgg on May 1, 2009 8:09 PM PDT reply actions 2 recs
laughing and crying all at once
These guys need to get it together.
i'll be blunt.
dumb post.
RIP Nick Adenhart :(
by scottnak on May 1, 2009 8:13 PM PDT reply actions 5 recs
great point!
"Man, this is baseball. You gotta stop thinking. Just have fun. I mean, if you were having fun you would've caught that ball."
your wrong
i disagree, whats sdum, is having Oliver who hasnt started for years, and then you start him, that is why he is on the DL. Please, doesnt matter if its May or September, our manager does not like our starters going 8 inning. What our great bullpen this year, if you think we can win the west with this bull pen its non sense. By the way, didnt fegie Jenkins throw 30 complete games one year? Weaver is fit to throw 8 or 9 innings. Now if this was Lackeys first start or we are throwing Mosely, I wold understand.
by Ca1IFORNIA ANGELS on May 1, 2009 8:23 PM PDT reply actions
* You're wrong.
I disagree. What’s dumb is starting Oliver, who hasn’t started for yea… okay, I give up trying to translate this post.
Let's do this for Nick Adenhart, Courtney Stewart, and Henry Pearson.
Wow Really
Fergie Jenkins?
Seriously, what the hell are you thinking, Weaver threw 102 pitches. If the bullpen was pitching like they’re capable, you wouldn’t have made this post.
nuff said
R.I.P. King Ad-Rock #34
Fergie is a pitcher?
Wow, a bad singer AND a pitcher. Amazing.
In a year of such turmoil, whining still abounds.
Downing Rules playing CF...
the ball goes over his head.
In a year of such turmoil, whining still abounds.
by Downing Rules on May 1, 2009 9:14 PM PDT up reply actions
I have a friend who went to high school with her
She apparently couldnt make the high school choir there…so yeah…
RIP #34
i had a friend that is related to her
"Man, this is baseball. You gotta stop thinking. Just have fun. I mean, if you were having fun you would've caught that ball."
You're an idiot.
enough said.
Do it for Nick '09
by BryanHarvey'sMoustache on May 1, 2009 11:27 PM PDT reply actions
okay that was rude.
im emotional…this game was tough.
Do it for Nick '09
by BryanHarvey'sMoustache on May 1, 2009 11:29 PM PDT up reply actions
wow guys
go easy on this guy. I feel the same way sometimes, but I do manage to put things in perspective and I know that overusing our starters isn’t the answer. But Scoscia does sometimes irk me with his decisions to take a starter out of the game when he’s been dominating. I’m no MLB manager though, and thats why I trust Sosh
im confused....
I’m no MLB manager though, and thats why I trust Sosh
you’re saying that you have faith in the soth? “ya dont see that everyday”
"Man, this is baseball. You gotta stop thinking. Just have fun. I mean, if you were having fun you would've caught that ball."
He makes a valid point.
We’ve all seen our starters cruising, get pulled, then BLAM! . I agree that this is a Angels management weakness. It needs to start in the low minors, but PLZ, enough of this babying pitchers BS..
by Big Bad, 'Vlad'! on May 1, 2009 11:47 PM PDT reply actions
Valid point?
He said that Weaver should have been allowed to pitch “at least 8 innings,” if not a complete game, tonight. The same Weaver who, as others already have pointed out, had thrown 102 pitches in 6 innings. He does not have a valid point.
by Brody on May 2, 2009 12:35 AM PDT up reply actions 1 recs
Do you have the 'Maximum amount Weaver can throw in a game before he is destined to get injured' handbook? If so let me know so I can get a copy too
by Big Bad, 'Vlad'! on May 2, 2009 2:08 PM PDT up reply actions
yeah how about
2006: 6.47 innings per start
2007: 5.75 innings per start
2008: 5.873 innings per start.
Weaver had already thrown 102 pitches and was 6.0 innings in. But hey, let’s just push our already injury-depleted starting rotation. sounds like a great idea.
And Weaver has also never thrown a complete game in his major league career. This is a 9-month season, not a 2 month one.
RIP #34
Maybe he can rub some Tussin' on it...
when his arm is aching.
Seriously, the idea of throwing 300 innings when away almost 30 years ago now. Pitch counts help to keep pitchers healthy. 110 pitches is fine, even 115 every once in a while can be tolerated but continually throwing 120 pitches a game and doing it for long stretches can become problematic for some arms.
It is roulette – you are gambling that Weaver is the next Nolan Ryan and not the next Mark Prior. Wanna bet which it is?
Me either…
RIP Nick...
Jim Scully
Jim Scully Home
by jimmuscomp on May 2, 2009 12:41 AM PDT up reply actions 1 recs
You just made the point of the post.
" 110 pitches is fine, even 115 every once in a while can be tolerated". I agree completely. Now wouldn’t you also agree that with the current state of our bullpen, that ‘once in a while’ is appropriate to be applied to this game we are discussing? That could have gotten him through the 7th, maybe into the 8th. That would be 1+ innings less that our bullpen had to destroy the game.
by Big Bad, 'Vlad'! on May 2, 2009 2:05 PM PDT up reply actions
It isnt just the number of pitches, but how much he is laboring.
120 pitches by greg maddux, who uses minimum effort could be less of a strain than 100 from a max effort pitcher. But Soth made the right call there. 95% of the time our BP holds that down. No reason sending out Weaver for the 7th.
That'll only happen if that one prospect is the second coming of Christ and redemption for mankind can only be achieved by smacking many balls out of the yard.
-The Limey
by anaheim angels on May 2, 2009 2:33 PM PDT up reply actions
especially after that long of a delay of him sitting in the dugout
That'll only happen if that one prospect is the second coming of Christ and redemption for mankind can only be achieved by smacking many balls out of the yard.
-The Limey
by anaheim angels on May 2, 2009 2:33 PM PDT up reply actions
95% of the old time. We are in uncharted waters my friends.
by Big Bad, 'Vlad'! on May 2, 2009 9:33 PM PDT up reply actions
thats teh win expectancy, and it appears to be above 95% actually at one point

That'll only happen if that one prospect is the second coming of Christ and redemption for mankind can only be achieved by smacking many balls out of the yard.
-The Limey
by anaheim angels on May 3, 2009 12:01 AM PDT up reply actions
8-13 pitches would be a fast inning
Weaver had used 17 pitches per inning up to that point. At that rate, his pitch counts after each inning would have been 119 (7th), 136 (8th), and 153 (9th).
In today’s game, no one throws 136+ pitches. In fact, the highest pitch count in 2007 was 130 pitches (I couldn’t find data for 2008). Thus, by even the most extreme standard, it would have been improbable for Weaver to complete more than 7 innings.
The question then is this: Should Scioscia have sent Weaver out there to throw another 15 or so pitches — pushing his total up to around 120 for the night — just so he could complete one of the three remaining innings when the team already had a 5-run lead? As a reminder, Rodriguez pitched a scoreless 7th, so Weaver could not even have saved us any runs that inning.
Good points too
But he didn’t have a 5 run lead in the seventh. I am a fan of starting pitching. Plain and Simple. To my liking the bullpen in general would be used less. Now in our current situation, Giving Weaver another inning (or more depending on efficiancy), assuming he doesn’t struggle, makes all the sense in the world.
by Big Bad, 'Vlad'! on May 2, 2009 9:32 PM PDT up reply actions
I just got off Pinstripe Alley...
the fans there were bitching at their manager for leaving CC in and that he should stop CC after 100 pitches. The grass is not always greener, man.
In a year of such turmoil, whining still abounds.
by Downing Rules on May 2, 2009 9:33 PM PDT up reply actions
The fans are always right.
;)
In a year of such turmoil, whining still abounds.
by Downing Rules on May 2, 2009 9:48 PM PDT up reply actions
thank you
for agreeing with my post. I have seen to many times, our pitchers cruising and then gets pulled, and how many times last year did we see this and one of our starters pissed off and begging to not get pulled.
by Ca1IFORNIA ANGELS on May 3, 2009 4:50 PM PDT up reply actions
I don't know about a complete game
But pitching into the 7th wouldn’t have been a bad idea (to me). 102 pitches? If Weaver gets the side in order, he’d have still been below 120, which isn’t TOO bad. At least let Weaver start the 7th and go from there. Who would you rather have on the mound, Weaver 100+ pitches or Rafael Rodriquez?
Any innings the bullpen doesn’t have to pitch is a plus.
"I see great things in baseball. It's our game, the American game. It will repair our losses and be a blessing to us."
people keep saying stuff like
“any innings the bullpen doesnt have to pitch is a plus”
But if the bullpen never pitched against live competition, how are they ever gonna get out of this funk they are in?
Godspeed Nick - RIP - 1986-2009
by norcaliangelsfan on May 2, 2009 8:17 AM PDT up reply actions
If the bullpen never had to pitch in live competition we'd have a lot of complete game gems!
Let's do this for Nick Adenhart, Courtney Stewart, and Henry Pearson.
I agree Weaver should have stayed in
Weaver was absolutely dominating after the first inning. No reason he shouldn’t have at least started the 7th. He had another 15 or so pitches in him.
by LosAngel on May 2, 2009 11:24 AM PDT reply actions 1 recs
didn't watch the game
but i’m sick of pitch counts. i understand that you want to protect the arm, but if the pitcher is in cruise control then whats the harm in letting him keep pitchin? i would understand if he labored through 6 innings. sometimes i think you just let a pitcher pitch. its not like he’s going to have to throw 120+ every game.
That's the rub...
If a Saunders, Lackey or Weaver throw 120 once every four or five starts that isn’t the end of the world. If it is every other start -that is troubling and if it is every start (Dusty Baker becomes our manager) then I don’t like the odds of an arm injury happening.
Most studies have shown – or at least pointed to age 25 as a general rule re: pitchers and overuse. If a pitcher is north of 25, there is less likelihood of an arm injury with an increased work load. Under 25, the numbers are less encouraging.
Also, remember that this is a marathon, not a sprint. We want Weaver and Saunders fresh for October, right? Dramatically increasing their workload from April to September isn’t a good way to prepare them for October…
RIP Nick...
Jim Scully
Jim Scully Home
i agree
but its not like Sosh is going to let Weaver do that every start. i was just thinking about friday’s game only. thats it.
it's too bad Soth hasn't won any awards for most wins as a manager
he really should be replaced. He has no respect from the players, other coaches/managers and certainly not the fans
/dripping sarcasm
RIP Nick
Satchel Paige
Pitched 3 games in one day and won them all.
I guess he threw 27 pitches “per”
by SocalAngelFaninOC on May 2, 2009 3:04 PM PDT reply actions
My opinion
You don’t change strategy because things are not going well. You have a 5 run lead in the 7th, you pull your starter if he has 100 plus. If you don’t do this, you are showing your relievers that you don’t have confidence in them. Even if your relievers are not performing well, you can not show that you don’t have confidence in them. Once you do that, it’s over anyway.
Angel Pitching (Adenhart), Angel Defense - get past that.
This is better then
“The Soth blows it again, leaving the starter/reliever in too long. Soth for BOTG.
There is a great song by REM off their 2nd album ...
called “Second Guessing.” Is Soth perfect? No. Personally, I think he is a little too aggressive with the running game, but I understand what he’s doing and why he does it. But his use of starting pitchers cannot be a serious basis for criticism. What he has done cobbling together a rotation, throughout his tenure here as manager, is nothing short of fantastic.

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