who was shocked that Weaver was pulled?
by Ca1IFORNIA ANGELS on May 12, 2009 10:17 PM PDT
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PrintNot me, too bad, he pitched another great game. Seven inning, he gave up four hits and one run. I was hoping he would get his second complete game in a row, once he was pulled in the 8th, Im sure no one was surprised Boston tied the game. I can hear all of you now and tell me I am out of my mind. Didnt Roy Holiday throw another complete game today? Weaver cruising through seven and out great leader has to pull him, another great job handling the pitchers. We have the highest ERA in the Majors for our bullpen.
Scoscia, what is the deal with your stance on not allowing your ptchers to throw complete games?
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Something about Mike watchng Tommy LAsorda ruin so many careers
with arms falling off mid-80s Dodgers starting pitchers… that is all…
by Rev Halofan on May 12, 2009 10:29 PM PDT reply actions 1 recs
Wow 98 pitches is too many?
Get a grip, that is two of Weaves last three starts he could have had W’s. The only one of course is the complete game.
by Big Bad, 'Vlad'! on May 12, 2009 10:33 PM PDT up reply actions
i disagree
Its a tight game, I am not talking 140 pitches, and Weaver was breezing. I dont believe Toronto fans are up in arms because Holiday is throwing complete games. Too much managing by the book. I think Mike is a good manager, but sometimes, this is his downfall. We win tonight 3-1 or at the worst 3-2 if he leaves Weaver in.
by Ca1IFORNIA ANGELS on May 12, 2009 10:33 PM PDT reply actions
May I borrow the keys to your DeLorian?
by ReggieBullits on May 12, 2009 10:35 PM PDT up reply actions
If my calculations are correct, when Weaver baby hits 98 pitches… you’re gonna hear some serious shit from Ca1IFORNIA ANGELS.
by ReggieBullits on May 12, 2009 10:42 PM PDT up reply actions
i am disagreeing with the CG
yes he should in hindsight have pitched the 8th, but your hysterical post did not address that.
by Rev Halofan on May 12, 2009 10:36 PM PDT up reply actions
Hindsight was his start before the complete game.
Today is about not recognizing the reality that our blowpen is no longer the vaunted Angels pen, but has rather suddenly (in the long term of multiple seasons) entered the world of the below average. I realize Sosh isn’t used to that, but for all our sakes I hope he wakes up.
by Big Bad, 'Vlad'! on May 12, 2009 11:24 PM PDT up reply actions
Weaver was pitching on shorter rest than normal since Ortega was sent down.
That may have had a bearing on Soth’s decision to pull him.
I am The Iron Man.
doesn't the off day negate that?
could be wrong but with the off day isn’t that his normal rest?
correct
Weaver was on regular rest. The bullpen, though, had an extra day of rest – all the more reason to think that Arredondo, Oliver and Shields should have been able to do their jobs.
I read somewhere in a newspaper article today that said Weaver was on shorter rest than normal,
that is why I said that. Can’t trust everything you read in the papers I guess.
I am The Iron Man.
Toronto pitchers do not have to worry about pitching in October
Weaver does.
Play Wood already. Willits sucks.
What you fail to comprehend
is that it’s not the # of innings, but the # of pitches.
Weaver was at 98 through 7, for an average of 14 pitches/inning. The Angels aren’t going to let him throw 112 pitches (let alone 126 for the CG), so you’ve got a choice of either replacing him to start an inning or replacing him in the middle of the inning. He’s not going to finish either way.
If you’d bothered to look, you’d have seen that Halliday threw only 103 pitches in his CG – the same as Weaver did last time, and two more than Saunders threw the other night.
So, unless you want to see Weaver burned out before he even reaches free agency, you know he cannot pitch a complete game tonight. Seriously; think before you post.
by jjackflash on May 12, 2009 10:38 PM PDT reply actions 1 recs
+1000000000
exactly. There was no reason to think our BP couldnt have handled it. That was the correct move 100%. Theres no way you want Weaver throwing too much this early. Its a marathon, not a sprint. Im guessing that Weaver being young and all has a strict innings/pitches limit for the year to avoid the Verducci Effect. No sense tiring him out now when we could use him later
That'll only happen if that one prospect is the second coming of Christ and redemption for mankind can only be achieved by smacking many balls out of the yard.
-The Limey
by anaheim angels on May 12, 2009 10:49 PM PDT up reply actions
your right, who cares about Wins, the season is really all about Pitch Counts.
We wouldnt’t want to offend the pitch count Gods!
BTW, I just got off the phone with the pitch count Gods; It’s 95 pitches! not 98. Oh Shit, we just overworked Weaver! Now his arm is no good.
by Big Bad, 'Vlad'! on May 12, 2009 11:17 PM PDT up reply actions
Thats a complete oversimplification of it
Arms over the course of a season get tired. They break down. The effort a pitcher uses to throw pitches 100+ are significantly more than 1-50. When a pitcher reaches the end of his stamina, his mechanics start to break down and he is alot more likely to get injured. The stress on the arm builds up over the course of the season. We might not see the effects for a few months, until he hits the DL in the middle of the race.
Also, as a pitcher faces the same hitters more times, the advantage shifts towards the hitter. It makes statistical sense, no it is smart to pull a pitcher who has faced the batters four times already, and replace him with a reliever who has the advantage of being able to change the hitters viewpoint. Arredondo had been nails the past 3 outings before this one (5 Ks, 1 BB, 0 Hits allowed, 0 ER), and there wasnt much of a reason to think he wouldnt be again. We only needed one inning to get to Fuentes, and we cant assume that we cant hold that lead for 1 inning.
That'll only happen if that one prospect is the second coming of Christ and redemption for mankind can only be achieved by smacking many balls out of the yard.
-The Limey
by anaheim angels on May 12, 2009 11:57 PM PDT up reply actions
Then it would follow that we would see the results as being the hitters getting hits, or the pitcher losing command.
At which point the bullpen comes into play. I am not saying leave a starter in for the sake of leaving him in. That would be just as inane as taking him out for the sake of taking him out.
However, if he is still on his game and getting hitters out, it makes no sense to bring in a bullpen full of guys that cumulatively have the worst ERA in the entire Major Leagues!
by Big Bad, 'Vlad'! on May 13, 2009 2:08 PM PDT up reply actions
Why not bring the bullpen into play BEFORE the pitcher starts sucking
especially in a close game. 3 outs, 1 run or less, thats all we needed, 8-9-1 hitters coming up. Our setup men should be able to do that better than our tiring starter
That'll only happen if that one prospect is the second coming of Christ and redemption for mankind can only be achieved by smacking many balls out of the yard.
-The Limey
by anaheim angels on May 13, 2009 5:42 PM PDT up reply actions
so
you’re saying that it’s factually incorrect that pitchers are more likely to get hurt after 100 pitches? That mountains of statistical data are inaccurate?
Look, I can’t argue that letting WTY throw another 5-7 pitches would have been the wrong thing to do, but you’re probably talking about one, maybe two batters. So, the bullpen would come into play at some point.
Suppose Weaver faces one batter who reaches base, after a six-pitch AB. Now, you’re bringing a reliever into a game with a runner on base and nobody out. At that point, the odds of recording three outs before the run scores have dipped dramatically. I’m not Soth, nor do I have the credentials to serve as a major league manager, but I find it easy to believe that he would rather put Arredondo (or Shields or whomever) into a situation where he needs to record three outs while allowing one run or less at the beginning of an inning rather than with no outs and a man on. The lower leverage situation should be easier. The fact that Arredondo didn’t do his job demonstrates a failure in the performance, not the process.
by jjackflash on May 13, 2009 6:51 AM PDT up reply actions 1 recs
How many relief pitchers get hurt every year? I am quite confident that none of them threw 100 or more pitches.
How many pitches did Mose, Lackey, and Santana throw before they went to the DL?
Wasn’t quite a hundred was it?
by Big Bad, 'Vlad'! on May 13, 2009 2:17 PM PDT up reply actions
non sequitur
You’re debunking a strawman. I never said that relievers don’t get hurt, or that overuse is the only cause of injury. What I DID say, and it is true, is that the risk of injury increases with pitch count.
I can drive my car, obey all laws and still get into an accident; I’m much more likely to do so, though, if I disregard all traffic laws and drive with my eyes closed. In so doing, I increase the risk of a bad outcome.
My point is that it is possible to get injured on pitch 1 or pitch 101
It is not a non-sequitur to bring information into the discussion which illustrates that point. If the pitcher is throwing well, and not laboring, and pitching a great game, then throwing pitches 99, 100, and 101 are not any more dangerous than pitching in the 2nd inning. These guys are big strong dudes who’s job is to pitch. With that Job comes risk.
I would suggest that by your argument we should take him out at 80 pitches. Where do you draw the line? Ultimately that is Sosh’s job, and though I may disagree with him, he must know best. When he pulls a starter throwing a great game and we lose, it sure doesn’t make me happy, as I am sure it bums you out too. Then we get to have some fun discussing it.
by Big Bad, 'Vlad'! on May 13, 2009 5:20 PM PDT up reply actions
If Weaver pitched 6 innings, and had 98 pitches
maybe he goes out for the 7th. But when we get to the 8th inning, time to hand it over to our set up man, then our closer. The starters job is to pitch 6+ innings with <3 runs (or so). The setup man pitches the 8th, the closer the 9th.
Also, while you could get injured on pitch 1, or pitch 101, the likelihood of getting injured on pitch 101 is 100000% more likely than on pitch 1. The risk of getting injured/ineffective is not worth it, as the bullpen SHOULD be able to do this. Dont blame Soth, blame Sharradoliver
That'll only happen if that one prospect is the second coming of Christ and redemption for mankind can only be achieved by smacking many balls out of the yard.
-The Limey
by anaheim angels on May 13, 2009 5:52 PM PDT up reply actions
Disregard injury
That is a possibility, but let’s step away from that.
Many pitchers, as they fatigue, change their arm angle. For some, this means their pitches begin to drop lower and they walk a few batters. For others, it causes their pitches to elevate and thus there is a greater risk of giving up an extra-base hit or even a longball.
Scioscia and Butcher are watching from the sidelines, and with Mathis, they have a pretty good idea of how strong and consistently Weaver is pitching. After his huge start previously, my guess is that Scioscia thought Weaver was starting to tire, and took him out of the game with a chance for a W and another boost to his confidence as a young pitcher.
We know how it turned out, but there was no shame in evaluating the pitcher and trying to program him for success in the long view of the season to come, instead of flogging him like a borrowed mule for this single game.
by George Kaplan on May 14, 2009 9:33 AM PDT up reply actions
johnsamo has entered the building.
Make some noise already people. Come on!
by Downing Rules on May 12, 2009 10:46 PM PDT reply actions 2 recs
rec'd for being around long enough to remember johnsamo
http://inplaynoouts.blogspot.com/ - A blog about teams I like, written by me.
#34
Shit man, why even have a bullpen?
If only our manager realized the correlation between CGs & Ws, we’d have a few more bats on our bench
*Ade-Rock 34*
by TheTypingFiend on May 12, 2009 11:04 PM PDT reply actions
5 pitchers
20 bats
Quinlan pinch hitting in the 4th inning every night!
by Rev Halofan on May 12, 2009 11:08 PM PDT up reply actions
should I feel insulted by that?
*Ade-Rock 34*
by TheTypingFiend on May 12, 2009 11:19 PM PDT up reply actions
I was a little surprised he was pulled
He had only thrown 98 pitches and had been in very little trouble all night. I thought Mike would leave him through maybe 110 pitches or so. He threw 12 pitches in the 7th, so he stood a good chance getting through the 8th, too. Throw in the fact that it was the #8 – #9 – #1 hitters coming up, and, yes, I would have left him.
I’m all for protecting pitchers – don’t get me wrong – but we still have to, you know, WIN some games. Weaver wasn’t at risk, and the game was still tight. I would’ve let him go out for the 8th inning.
"There's nothing that cleanses your soul like getting the hell kicked out of you." - Woody Hayes
by johnnyangel101 on May 12, 2009 11:10 PM PDT reply actions 1 recs
Listen up and let me chime in
So what is the number one thing you do when your best hitter is in a slump? Do you allow all the guys around him to go to the plate and take hacks? No, you don’t. You get that hitter as many swings as it takes to get back into his groove. Every time a pitcher takes the mound he gets better or worse. Right now Soth is trying to get these guys back in the game. I personally think that if Papi was in any kind of shape the fastball wouldn’t have hit him and who knows were we would be. Anyways, lets try to wait this out, the numbers from the past show that we have a good pen. It’s really just a matter of time before they get it together. We have been spoiled with the pen of old and now it seems we have a pen with humans. No big deal, they have dropped some games early. What matters most is where we are at the All-Star break. If our pen is still our blowpen then I will be with the revolt. Until then just take a chill pill. Were in Socal for crying out loud. The reason people from the east are so bitter is they didn’t see the players breathing tonight.
"its like deja vu all over again."
-Yogi Berra
You can't wear out your starters over a 162 game season
Because your relievers aren’t coming through. Quick fixes hurt you in the long run. The relief coming around is the only solution.
Angel Pitching (Adenhart), Angel Defense - get past that.
by vladtheimpaler on May 13, 2009 12:56 AM PDT reply actions
You seem to always have some sort of gripe against something
Or maybe its just a bad week. At 98 pitches after 7 either Weaver pitches part of the 8th or you have the bullpen just start off the 8th. We have to trust our bullpen. We cannot sustain our starters throwing CG’s every outing over the course of an entire season. The Bullpen blew one again…thats not Mike’s overmanagement; thats the bullpen blowing the game.
RIP #34
by linkbruin on May 13, 2009 2:36 AM PDT reply actions 3 recs
How come they don't play any good songs on the radio anymore?
Why isn’t milk delivered to my porch the way it used to be? Why do kids these days use slang words I can’t understand? Whatever happened to those funny shows on TV? Hey you kids, get off of my lawn! And so forth.
by LazorkoRules on May 13, 2009 7:01 AM PDT reply actions 2 recs
i see what you did there!
"Man, this is baseball. You gotta stop thinking. Just have fun. I mean, if you were having fun you would've caught that ball."
And get off my lawn, you darned kids!
rassum fassum mumble grumble
Kids today… got no respect…. why back in my day… now what was I sayin’ ag’in?
Angels fan since '67
aren't you the guy who hates the monkey?
This bullpen collapses faster than the Austro-Hungarian Empire
Two of his premium pitchers just THREW complete games...
Get off of it dude. We are like 25 games into the season. If you want your pitchers to have some gas in october then you got to temper their pitch count.
get a grip. it was one loss…
Do it for Nick '09
by BryanHarvey'sMoustache on May 13, 2009 1:02 PM PDT reply actions
Actually it is a pattern. That is two of the last three Weaver starts ending the same sad way.
As you know, the only one of the three that resulted in a W was the CG.
But that is not the point. Let him pitch till he needs to be taken out.
by Big Bad, 'Vlad'! on May 13, 2009 2:20 PM PDT up reply actions
Yes if a pitcher throws a complete game, it's an automatic win. Page 340 of the MLB rulebook.
by Big Bad, 'Vlad'! on May 13, 2009 4:46 PM PDT up reply actions
I think Weave should have pitched the 8th
Send him out there, see if he gets some quick outs, yank him if he allows a baserunner. He’s absolutely dominated the Sox this year, and our bullpen has absolutely sucked.
Palmers pitch count
So what was Palmers pitch count? Was it over 100?
by Ca1IFORNIA ANGELS on May 13, 2009 9:48 PM PDT reply actions
hmm
So everyone comes unglued yesterday because I post that Weaver should not have been pulled, but a career minor leaguer throws more pitches and gives up more runs then Weaver and is allowed to pitch a complete game?
by Ca1IFORNIA ANGELS on May 13, 2009 10:13 PM PDT reply actions
Yes
He had a comfortable lead, and he was under 100 through 8 – basically in the same position as WTY was through seven. So yes, Palmer was in position to throw a CG and Weaver was not. Nothing has changed. Add to that, who knows when Palmer may start again?
just as jjackflash said
If the angels are up by 4 runs going into the 8th, I think Weaver stays. Last year we had a 162 game winning streak when leading after 7 innings snapped (or was it after 8?). Anyway, would rather risk a Palmer injury than a Weaver one
That'll only happen if that one prospect is the second coming of Christ and redemption for mankind can only be achieved by smacking many balls out of the yard.
-The Limey
by anaheim angels on May 14, 2009 12:11 AM PDT up reply actions
Sorry to change the subject
But when you have time, can you give an update on Howie hitting at the top half of the lineup vs the bottom? This season and career mlb?
Why have you quit giving all the stat info stuff? That was great.
Angel Pitching (Adenhart), Angel Defense - get past that.
by vladtheimpaler on May 14, 2009 1:45 AM PDT up reply actions
Sorry about that.
Schools kinda kept me busy for a while, with APs and whatnot. But I should be posting more about stats soon, as Im done with school on Wednesday.
That'll only happen if that one prospect is the second coming of Christ and redemption for mankind can only be achieved by smacking many balls out of the yard.
-The Limey
by anaheim angels on May 14, 2009 7:26 AM PDT up reply actions
RE: "Scoscia, what is the deal with your stance on not allowing your ptchers to throw complete games?"
Three CG’s in the past 2 weeks…
I am not sure your question makes any sense in this context… “3 CG’s in the past 2 weeks.” Just because he didn’t let Weaver do it the other night, you are all over Scioscia? Sure does not appear that he is intentionally not allowing his pitchers to throw CG’s.
I think your argument could have been better presented as:
Scioscia, why not let Weaver go further in that game the other night? At least a few more batters into the 8th …
Make some noise already people. Come on!
further more
Use the bullpen, when your starter is in trouble, is out of gas or thrown over 120 pitchers. Weaver, is perfectly healthy and in the prime of his career now. I can see puling Lackey or Santana who is coming back from an injury. But, when Weaver is cruising and pitching a great game, with your Bullpen ERA over 12 why be so quick to pull Weaver? Yes, I am still upset, I have seen this too often. Lackey, Saunders last year in August and September last pulled and having the bullpen give up leads. I believe Lackey had three wins in September last year taken away because of the pen. To be honest, Why would Weaver want to resign here when he knows he never has a chance to go to the distance? I wonder if starting pitchers enjoy playing playing for MS?
by Ca1IFORNIA ANGELS on May 14, 2009 3:54 PM PDT reply actions
Congratulation, Your hindsight is 20/20.
Do you really think Weaver is more worried about throwing a CG than a chance at the playoff’s. Also, any manager with a reliable bullpen (which ours was over the weekend) would have made the exact same move.
R.I.P. King Ad-Rock #34
what??
Entering Wednesday’s game, the Angels had the best starters’ ERA in the AL, with a 3.49 mark. But, the Angels bullpen ERA was worst in the AL at 6.90. So please tell me what your smoking? Calling our bullpen reliable? ALso, players care about their stats and a big pay day in free agency Its 2009, where have you been? Weaver has been to the playoffs, if that was the case why did Texiera leave? Its all about the pay day.
by Ca1IFORNIA ANGELS on May 14, 2009 6:16 PM PDT reply actions
I'm pretty sure Boras is smart enough
to look past wins when negotiating for his clients.
*Ade-Rock 34*
by TheTypingFiend on May 14, 2009 8:05 PM PDT up reply actions
1st learn what the REPLY button is for
2nd actually read what I wrote, “Also, any manager with a reliable bullpen (which ours was over the weekend)”
3rd Texiera did leave for a team that on paper has a chance to make the playoffs (as he stated was one of his criteria for his new team), if it was the Yankees of the 80’s, I’d bet money that he’d be playing for the ANGELS or the sux’s.
R.I.P. King Ad-Rock #34
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