Lunch Thread: The Fall of Howie Kendrick
by Rev Halofan on May 21, 2009 10:00 AM PDT
in Pregame
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Print7:10 PM tonight JOE SAUNDERS faces ERIK BEDARD as the Angels look to make the road trip a .500 one before the weekend's freeway series.
Bottom Line: How terrible will Howie Kendrick have to be this season before he is just dumped... benched with no tomorrow... sent to the minors (does he still have options?)... traded for a bucket of balls to make room for Brandon Wood.
Even if you like Howie, you gotta draw the line somewhere. He is batting .237 ... FUTURE BATTING CHAMPION ... Ha hahahahaha! ugh.
This thread is NOT to tell us how much you like him or how much you believe in him. This thread is to draw the line as to where he has to fall for you to give up on him.
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It seems like Howie has had a logn leash so far
maybe it would do him some good to take a few games off. Maybe if he is benched for a little while a light will turn on hopefully. I think sliding Aybar/Izturis over to second and start Wood at short is our best option right now.
yikes
The thing is, even when Howie was hitting .300 the last couple years, he still looked over-matched against the best pitchers, who would expose his poor approach at the plate. Right now it just looks like hes trying too hard to be more disciplined and letting very hittable pitches pass him by. The league has caught up to him and hes going through an adjustment period. I think he’ll eventually be fine, but at this point I think our expectations have to be tempered. If he still sucks in mid-June, I say send him back down, shift Figgy to 2nd and let the Wood era begin.
That is a good point about tring to "appear" disciplined
as he is NOT winning the best actor Oscar for acting like he is waiting for his pitch.
by Rev Halofan on May 21, 2009 10:23 AM PDT up reply actions
Applies to defense this year, too
He really appears to my eyeballs to be trying hard to get close & make a credible showing, rather than making damned sure he makes the play.
HK = LBJ
If I have lost Cronkite (Welch), I have lost America….
by Rev Halofan on May 21, 2009 10:30 AM PDT up reply actions
I think if he is not hitting better by the end of the month ship him to SLC
Then either:
1. Call up Wood to play short and put Aybar at second.
2. Call up Wood to play Third and put Figgins at second.
3. Call up Sean Rodriguez to play second.
Play Wood already. Willits sucks.
by hauldog on May 21, 2009 10:24 AM PDT reply actions 1 recs
+1
Make some noise already people. Come on!
by Downing Rules on May 21, 2009 1:12 PM PDT up reply actions
Other teams...
Still salivate over the thought of Kendrick’s potential and with our middle-infield depth, we could get a lot for him in a trade and not lose anything (it might even be addition by subtraction at this point.)
I still think Kendrick is going to be a career .300 hitter in the majors, but that is pretty worthless if he isn’t hitting tons of home runs or drawing any walks. Most of his minor league value was Avg./doubles driven and he isn’t going to hit .360 in the majors…
We are being outperformed by the Rangers
Ship his ass out NOW.
The time is out of joint; oh cursed spite, that ever I was born to set it right.
by chairmanofthebar on May 21, 2009 10:40 AM PDT reply actions
i dont know man
obviously, i’m not ready to give up on the guy yet, but he’s clearly not himself right now.
maybe a demotion to Salt Lake to work something things out (ala Santana ’07) should be in the cards. in that time, you could move Izturis or Aybar to 2B with Wood coming in as the SS.
Thank you, Nick Adenhart. You will always be remembered. #34
agreed also, I like HK a lot, seems like a very nice guy and when he is right he
hits line drives all over the place but give him some time to find himself in SLC and give Wood and/or SRod a chance.
Angels in 09!
no trade because you'll be getting no return
send him to salt lake and leave him there for at least 100 ABs until he’s hitting .350 down there against minor leaguers. He has no value offensively to the angels right now
RIP Nick Adenhart
List of all-time 2Bmen who hit at least .290/.320/.400 in at least 800 PAs by age 24
Here. That’s only 19 players, 8 or so of whom are in the Hall of Fame. If you wanted to be really sneaky, you could change it to .300/.330/.430, and you’d get just 9. Not many suddenly fell off a cliff and forgot how to hit at or soon after age 25.
Or perhaps you just want 24-year-olds w/ 800 PAs & OPS+s of between 90 and 110, since that’s a more accurate look at Kendrick’s value to date. Even on that list, you’ve got a whole lot of great players not far from Howie’s 97.
So — do you trade a guy whose stats through age 24 look similar to both Charlie Gehringer (HoF) and Dave Cash (not)? No, I think you don’t consider trading that guy, unless he’s a clubhouse cancer, which Howie isn’t. The mere statistical probability of him being a very good player, coupled with his athletic (if fragile) body & pleasant demeanor, suggests that you show some patience while you’re paying him minimum wage.
How much more, though? Depends on if he continues performing both at this level & with the evident mental funk he’s in. If he hits .240 for another whole month while seeming like he’s fishing around w/out a clue, you might then need to tell him to clear his head at Salt Lake for a month. That’s a pretty terrible outcome, though, considering that the problem is obviously between the ears & confidence-related right now.
If I was the Angels I’d tell him to stop thinking, start playing. Go out and hit Ball when Ball looks Good. Keep him in the 9-hole, flush everything out, tune stuff out. He has a tremendous gift which he has ALREADY DEMONSTRATED AT THE MAJOR LEAGUE LEVEL, and rare indeed is the healthy 25-year-old who suddenly forgets how to hit. So flush his brain, give him a month, hope for the best, and remember that almost all young players at some point go through an excruciating learning phase.
by mattwelch on May 21, 2009 11:03 AM PDT reply actions 3 recs
I agree to a point...
What is his ceiling really though? I have no doubt that Howie is going to be a nice player, but his ridiculous minor league average simply doesn’t translate to the majors without plate discipline and a better contact rate.
It’s true he could develop plate discipline and more power, but players that haven’t learned plate discipline by 25 do not have a good track record of suddenly developing it. Also, you have to take into account the fact that there are better hitting second baseman in today’s game, so I wouldn’t start inscribing Howie into the HOF just yet. Nonetheless, you make good points.
If the Angels can trade Howie and get a lot back, they should do it now because he loses market value with age. At worst, they lose one really good player and replace him with other good players plus whoever they get in the trade. At best, they get value for a player who doesn’t develop.
On the other hand, if you can get a lot of value for Aybar, I’d rather see him go than Kendrick by a long shot. If the Angels decide they want to be patient with Howie, I don’t mind so long as they trade one of their other middle infielders. I was admittedly being harsh in calling him pretty worthless as a .300 hitter since he is a second baseman and does hit a bunch of doubles.
Matt -- you may want to rethink this part
Go out and hit Ball when Ball looks Good.
First pitch swinging pop out. Maybe you weren’t watching yesterday’s game.
Witty .sig goes here.
You know, even that looked like overthinking
Along the lines of, “I know he totally wants to throw a strike so I bet he throws one now and so I’m gonna SWING SWING SWING!” The Ball was not in a tasty location, which unthinking Howie is usually able to determine, at least on a 0-0 count.
A little loose with the facts.
Howie is almost 26..July 12. BBREF cuts off at June 30. For that extra 12 days, you wanna credit him a whole extra year of development?
His comps at BBREF include guys like Bobby Brown, Earl Smith, Ken O’Day, Lew Fonseca….
Yes Gehringer is on that list, but he was born only 2 months earlier (in relative terms) than Howie. But by your query, that makes him a full season younger…which of course he ain’t. By his 26th BDAY, he had already 3 fine seasons of increased growth and development, and in his 26 year old season he was well on his way to .339/.405/.532. In his 25th Y/O season (except for those 2 months noted above, LY’s Howie comp) he came in 8th in the MVP. How can you even suggest these guys are at all comparable?
Look, not going tooooo deep with this. Howie is an ok player, with huge obvious weaknesses. More problematic is, he shows absolutely no ability to learn and grow, in fact he is regressing.
At his age, he should be entering the early parts of his prime years (generally 26-30), not regressing. The pitchers have learned and exposed his weaknesses. He, to this point, has not shown the ability to adjust. From this point, true he could still go on and have a fine career, if BA with no power or OBP gets you….or he could be Ken O’Day.
Me, I’d trade him. Wood and Rodriguez are both far better bets at this point..and If Mensa Mike can’t figure that out, maybe he should go too.
"Loose" my ass
I give you three links to choose from, all with relevant stats (such as birth date, and lousy-player comps), and you’re busting my balls? Then you state as fact that “Howie is an ok player, with huge obvious weaknesses. More problematic is, he shows absolutely no ability to learn and grow, in fact he is regressing”?
Here’s an idea — instead of throwing inane potshots, calling for the best manager in Angel history to be fired, and (more importantly) bringing ABSOLUTELY NOTHING to the argument except the sound of your own lips smacking in the wind, why don’t you introduce some data of your own?
As for “BA with no power,” Howie’s ISO through his age-24 season was better than that of Rusty Staub and Frankie Frisch, to mention two halfway decent players.
by mattwelch on May 21, 2009 10:16 PM PDT up reply actions 1 recs
Matt Welch laying the smackdown.
nice
That'll only happen if that one prospect is the second coming of Christ and redemption for mankind can only be achieved by smacking many balls out of the yard.
-The Limey
by anaheim angels on May 21, 2009 10:25 PM PDT up reply actions
I'd ship Hatcher out before Howie
After shipping Hatcher out, I’d let Howie sit for a few games to stop pressing.
The Angels are currently leading the league in batting
as they did in 04.
The hitting coach is NOT the problem.
I brought sexy back, but they only gave me store credit....
Hitting is pretty important, yeah
unless you want to walk runs in all day.
I brought sexy back, but they only gave me store credit....
Wrong....
Hitting is important..but hitting is producing runs. That’s a hitter’s job. The Angels have proved, beyond any doubt, that you can’t hit enough singles, get enough squeezes, hit behind enough runners to score enough RUNS to compete with real offensive teams.
Honestly, answer this. Would you rather have a team that .265 and scores 900 runs, or one that hits .285 that scores 750? Which team is the better hitting team.
Which QB is better, one that hits 65% of his screens, dump offs and dinks and puts 2 TD’s up a game, or a guy completing 50% of deep throws and putting 4 TD’s up a game?
Points, runs, goals…what ever you wanna count..they matter. The better offensive team puts more on the board than the other. And the just do not score enough..because they have far too many empty .290 hitters.
Well
If we don’t give credit to Hatcher for improving team BA, it would be unfair to blame him for the runners LOB.
RIP Nick Adenhart, #34
Because LOB, after all, is more important than scoring runs
wait that didn’t make sense.
I brought sexy back, but they only gave me store credit....
HK
yeah, he’s clearly squeezing the bat too hard – - ok so that’s a hockey analogy.
I’m Canadian, it’s all I got.
But he’s trying to be too perfect in the box, and in the meantime has lost his ability to be normal.
That said, the long leash isn’t doing him any favors. He needs a shakeup – - mentally at the very least – - and here’s me putting Aybar in the mix too – - I figure if I’m going to dream, I’m going to dream big.
2b – Figgins
SS – Wood
3B – Matt Brown
Nothing like popping those cherries all at once and rushing Brown. Yeehaw. he only hit what, .500+ in spring? even half of that is better than Aybar or HK right now.
Self-realization. I was thinking of the immortal words of Socrates, who said, "I drank what?"
The Geek.
by The OC Sports Geek on May 21, 2009 11:13 AM PDT reply actions
matt brown will never excel in the majors.
by Quinlan's Goofy Swing on May 21, 2009 11:22 AM PDT up reply actions
I'd say he has until the end of June
If his month of June sucks, I’d expect him to be benched but it better not be for Izturis.
As bad as Howie has been, Izturis has a much worse ops and that dude gets to dh?
I’m happy with Howie’s defense, expect him to pick up his bat, and don’t look at second base as a position that is costing the team any games.
3rd base, ss, and 2/3 of the outfield have combined for 1 less homer than Howie.
He’s hitting .286 with risp while the beloved hunter(.238), abreu (.268), napoli(.226), and morales(.235) all have failed miserably with risp on the season.
Singling out a guy who is batting 7-9 most nights seems funny considering what the meat of the order does in rbi situations.
by Quinlan's Goofy Swing on May 21, 2009 11:22 AM PDT reply actions
Minors
If he has options.
It’s all mental, and he just needs to find his swing and stop over thinking. He’s FAR too pull happy and needs to learn to ONLY swing at balls that he can drive, rather than just swinging at balls in the strike zone. Just because it’s a strike, or near the zone, doesn’t mean it’s OK to swing.
I’m fine with Figgins to 2B and Wood to SS, or even S-Rod to 2B in the meantime. And while I agree with selling low on Howie, I’d still have no qualms about moving him due to our current depth at the position if we can get something of worth.
Combined with last year's post season
I have about as much patience as Howie does at the plate. If he does not straighten himself by July, I’d sit him down and give Wood a go
GA GA he's the man, if he can't do it, no one can
agreed
Thats just it – - he came off an significant time off due to injury to jump into a playoff round that had the Halos totally dying on the vine in terms of run production, and Scioscia went with a guy who didn’t have his timing down.
I forget exactly but wasn’t he 0 or 1 for 16 or something? And as if that’s not bad enough, it was the amount of phat pitches right down the middle of the plate the he took.
Clearly he can’t hit the breaking ball, and he WON’T hit the fastball. That’s a rough combo to be succvessful with.
Self-realization. I was thinking of the immortal words of Socrates, who said, "I drank what?"
The Geek.
by The OC Sports Geek on May 21, 2009 12:47 PM PDT up reply actions
Before anyone decides to ship out Howie (in any direction), ask yourself this:
Can you honestly believe that Howie would be struggling as mightily as he is were he in the hands of Rudy Jaramillo?
Imagine that Texas needed a 2B, and the Halos did something as stupid as trade within their own division to their #1 rival this year. I suggest that HK might possibly then end up as the hottest hitter in all of baseball before we got out of September.
Howie has the physical tools to be a doubles-hitting machine. The fact that he is nowhere close to that and appears to be going backwards uncontrollably should fall on the shoulders of the coach who is failing to extract the potential from those tools.
Brandon Wood is slated for 2010, and no amount of whining by us is gonna change that. So evolve, already!
Maybe
But I think a big part of it is major league pitchers available to find a weakness and pick at it until he makes an adjustment – which he’s not.
Recognizing/understanding how the league has figured out a hitter, and helping that hitter make counter-adjustments, is precisely what coaches are for.
Brandon Wood is slated for 2010, and no amount of whining by us is gonna change that. So evolve, already!
Exactly
If it ain’t broke … Mickey doesn’t seem to get involved until it’s wrecked not just broken.
Either Mickey figures that they will figure it out himself, or Mickey runs an open door policy. Never soliciting work just waiting for it to fall at his doorstep with desperation.
Last time it was Nathan Haynes helping out Chone, now we got Torii trying to help out Howie (LINK). Maybe Hatcher can’t help a batter that’s struggling, but can only rebuild the wrecked ones.
Lastly. I always thought Sosh was a solitary manager during the games while in the dugout. never talking to his coaches or players unless needed. But Butcher is always giving him insight, and they converse regularly, side by side. But I have never seen Micky Hatcher do the same. Maybe a walk by comment or two, or maybe the cameras never catch it, or the Mick is just not camera friendly.
Trade him for Adam Kennedy, straight up...
(just kidding folks)
I think HK could still be a strong big leaguer. He just needs to find his groove again. A trip to SLC at the end of the month is in order if he is still not performing.
I also wish to apologize to the poster who trolled here during the offseason — he said Howie was lucky and we argued that he is that good and you had to see it to believe it. We failed thus far in 2009 to prove that point. LOSE.
Make some noise already people. Come on!
Here is what I just got from the Angels Insider..........I had not noticed
Howard Kendrick has shown glimmers of breaking out of his month-long slump. He hopes to continue to rebound at 7:10 PT tonight against the Mariners. After Wednesday night’s 1-0 loss, Angels outfielder Torii Hunter and second baseman Kendrick were embroiled in a lengthy conversation at Hunter’s locker.
Play Wood already. Willits sucks.
addition
Doesn’t he have a six-month-old son?
I don’t have kids, and I’ve never played ball, but babies seem to change many things.
I guess he and I both miss summers at Franklin Covey…. (OMG the view.)
Well that changes everything...
I didn’t realize that Kendrick had a baby. Baseball Prospectus actually did a regression analysis that conclusively identified a causal link to having babies and a temporary decrease in EQA. It usually lasts about a month.
HAHAHAHAHA
you quoted FOP…and as a fairly odd parents, I sadly got the reference. THE CRIMSON CHIN rocks.
Self-realization. I was thinking of the immortal words of Socrates, who said, "I drank what?"
The Geek.
by The OC Sports Geek on May 22, 2009 10:07 AM PDT up reply actions
Patience is required.
Howie will be fine. Players have funks. This guy will be a productive ML player for many years to come. I feel a lot less certain about Brandon Wood.
Well
most of the problem lies in the fact that HK relies very heavily on his Batting Average to be of value to an offensive club.
He never walks, his defensive is average at best, and he does not steal a whole lot of bases. His entire value rides on him hitting a lot of singles/doubles. Which he hasn’t.
Unfortunately he has no other tool to fall back on other than slap hitting/gap power, and that one tool seems to be a tad rusty at the moment.
I brought sexy back, but they only gave me store credit....
simple
it takes an all star break where he isn’t at .240, and the angels are not in first place.
www.13stoploss.com
I dont care who sits....Free Brandon Wood.
Godspeed Nick - RIP - 1986-2009
by norcaliangelsfan on May 21, 2009 4:11 PM PDT reply actions
In my mind, he's passed it already.
Look, if your idea of a hitter is a gaudy average, with no power and no plate discipline, than Howie’s your guy. An empty .320 BA, if he can even hit that, looks great on the scoreboard, but it produces very few runs. Napoli could hit .220 and he’d produce more runs than Howie hitting .320.
On top of that, there is nothing about him that is particularly impressive. He runs well, but not that well, and uses questionable judgement also. He doesn’t hurt you in the field, but he is not really better than a dozen other guys. He is not a smart player, and doesn’t seem to learn from mistakes.
Last night, alphabet soup was on the ropes, walking 2, loading the bags, sweatin’ bullets and about ready to take a dump right there in the middle of Safeco. What does Howie do, swing at the 1st pitch, a borderline high/tight one at that and pops out.
Now if this happened rarely, it does after all happen to everyone…no biggie. But this nonsense happens all the time with him.
I always thought you should always try to trade a player when his perceived value is higher than his real value. That, in my mind has been Howie. Id’a traded him BEFORE I exposed his weaknesses to the world.
Just ask Josh Barfield…
EMPTY
man you got alot of opinions with nothing to back it up…reminds me air…smelly air…like a fart.
Do it for Nick '09
by BryanHarvey'sMoustache on May 22, 2009 12:27 AM PDT up reply actions
i think we'll know what we have w/howie by the end...
of this season. he shoukd have approx. over 1600 career ab’s assuming he stays healthy. i don’t remember who said it but a pretty reputable baseball mind said it takes about 1200-1500 ab’s to figure out how to hit in the majors. also, we may have set the bar to high for him with all this “future batting champ” talk. he could be a .290-.300 career guy, which isn’t bad, i’ll take it but that’s not a batting champ.
Free Brandon Wood & Sean Rodriguez
When I'm not at the stadium, I'd rather be watching my Halos back in Costa Rica!
FREE TACOS!
"Man, this is baseball. You gotta stop thinking. Just have fun. I mean, if you were having fun you would've caught that ball."
.290 or 80+ rbi
And reserve the right to change my mind
Angel Pitching (Adenhart), Angel Defense - get past that.
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