last nights loss
by Ca1IFORNIA ANGELS on May 24, 2009 8:35 AM PDT
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PrintThat hurts, especially up 4-1. Thought Lackey is getting back to form, but something has to be done with Shields. How many games has he lost the lead this year? Its time to move him, I am scared when Spier and him are on the mound. Escobar will hopefully be our set up man the next couple of months.Hope we can win today and take the series. We will have to get off t a good start and score some runs. Chad B. is a very good pitcher.
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Shields has an owie, perhaps he will join Loux
Loux to DL
The Angels placed starter Shane Loux on the 15-day disabled list after the game with shoulder tendinitis, recalling reliever Rafael Rodriguez from Triple-A Salt Lake.
Miss you Nick...! RIP
bring up Rich!!!
Do it for Nick '09
by BryanHarvey'sMoustache on May 24, 2009 11:11 AM PDT up reply actions
Agree with everything
This will be a tough game for us to win against a good pitcher, but we really do need to take this game.
Longer term, I am now officially concerned about Shields. At first, I assumed that he would sort this out in time. That has not happened almost two months into the season. Not only are his results terrible, but there are questions about his knee and he seems unable at times to throw strikes. Even if Escobar could start, I think that we would be better off using him as our primary setup man. I’m just not sure that we can count on Dondo or Shields being that guy for us.
I thought Shields was getting better
It’s his knee. Just like a certain GMJ last year, he needs to recognize that his bad knee is keeping him from producing/contributing and go on the damn DL. Once that happens, he’ll be fine. I seem to recall he’s not given up a whole lot of runs recently—a definite sign of improvement.
RIP Nick Adenhart.
"When the Babe tries to call his shot, I hope Nick puts one in his ear."
--RallyMonkey5
I agree with you
But will 5 or 6 days of rest (or perhaps a trip to the DL) be good enough, or will his knee just continue to flare up unless and until he gets surgery? Hopefully, if he rests it a little bit, he can finish the season at a high level and then deal with this in the offseason. But I have no idea….
Tendinitis
Does not usually require surgery, does it? Might need a long-ish DL stint to get everything calmed down, but unless there’s a tear of some sort I don’t see the need for surgery. Then again, I’m not a doctor. Who knows?
RIP Nick Adenhart.
"When the Babe tries to call his shot, I hope Nick puts one in his ear."
--RallyMonkey5
concern with Shields?
How about concern with the umpires, yet again?
On two batters, especially Loney, he should have had a called third strike. And how about the mental error by Howie? Not only should that ball been a third strike, he slides safely into second under the legs of our clueless 2Bman, who should have easily tagged him out to end the inning, and preserve the lead.
Walks kill. But so do umpires who let strike cross the plate, and call them balls. As do mental errors on the field.
www.13stoploss.com
Yes, I am concerned with Shields
The umpire did squeeze the strike zone on the apparent 3rd strike and Howie did fail to apply the tag on the subsequent play at 2B. If it were just a matter of giving up a run under those circumstances, I would not be concerned. Instead, Shields appeared unable to locate pitches — not counting the two hits that he gave up, he threw just as many balls as strikes (16 to 16), including several in the dirt that required acrobatic stops by Mathis to prevent further damage. He also was not even close on the throw to 1B or on the two warmup pitches with the trainer at the mound. Given the repeated references to tendonitis in his knee, it would be naive at this point not to be concerned.
Lackey for Kinsler....straight up?
not.
Do it for Nick '09
by BryanHarvey'sMoustache on May 24, 2009 11:13 AM PDT up reply actions
Options at 2B if you want to send Howie down.
Rivera could play 2B.
Izturis could play 2B.
Sean Rodriguez can play 2B.
RIP Nick Adenhart 4/9/09
uh figgy could play 2nd and Wood could play 3rd!
Godspeed Nick - RIP - 1986-2009
by norcaliangelsfan on May 24, 2009 12:39 PM PDT up reply actions
UMP sucked
what was that call? i get to watch very few games and some of you guys were saying Shields was being squeezed and after seeing the game last night, that was horrible. some of these Umps and there on variation of a strike zone is frustrasting.
You guys are ridiculous.
Shields has inspired a lot of hate after last nights game. Lets take a look at how he did
8th inning:
1st batter: Double, what should have been an out if Howie had a brain or a K if the ump had eyes
2nd batter: ground out
3rd batter: RBI single
4th batter: fly out
5th batter: ground out
9th inning
1st batter: Walk
2nd batter: Ground out
(pick off error by Shields; moves runner over to third
3rd batter: Strikeout
4th batter: walked, However another strikeout not called
(pulled for Arrendono who K’d the next batter)
Okay the lead off walk and throwing error were inexcusable but hardly serious enough to justify this kind of talk. In the end it was Arrendono was the one who blew the game and got the loss, and in the end couldn’t record an out in the 9th.
I don’t understand the urge to get rid of a guy who has been awesome for the four years. No doubt he needs to improve. but why deplete a bullpen that is struggling. What is interesting is all the calls for sending him down and not one is accompanied by a suggestion of who to replace him with.
Lets save some of that frustration for players like HOWIE so seems to have misplaced the other half of his BA, or GMJ who continues to rob the team for the third consecutive year, or Aybar who things he can imitate VLAD’S strike zone and finally SCIOSCIA and REGAINS who insist on throwing up a power challenged lineup everyday, even though we have an adequate power supplement breaking records in SLC
You have been spolied by having the best bullpen in the majors for years, co-captained by Shields, and now don’t know how to deal with adversity. Chill out
#34 Nick Adenhart always an Angel
breaking records? really?
are you just letting off some steam or is this true?
Do it for Nick '09
by BryanHarvey'sMoustache on May 24, 2009 11:13 AM PDT up reply actions
Getting rid of Shields is not the answer or even an option
But we do need to figure out how to correct his problems — DL, perhaps — and, until we do so, he should not pitch in the 8th innings of games where we have a 1-run lead. Oliver is a much better option right now. Given the depth and quality of our starting pitching, particularly once Moseley returns, Escobar also would fit better in the bullpen than as a starter. These are not “ridiculous” comments or suggestions.
Last point: your “spoiled” reference incorrectly gives the impression that we are complaining simply because we no longer have the best bullpen. That is hardly the case. By all statistical measures, we have the worst bullpen in baseball. There is nothing wrong with expressing concern over and suggesting ways to improve a bullpen that has the most losses and worst ERA in the game.
I do not want to get rid of Shields!
I suspect he needs a stint on the DL however!
Miss you Nick...! RIP
?
Have you seen Shields performances the past two months? This is not just about last night.
by Ca1IFORNIA ANGELS on May 24, 2009 1:52 PM PDT up reply actions
Have you seen his peformance over the last *month*?
You’re right, it’s not about last night. Shields had a terrible April, this is true. Since then, however, he has calmed down considerably: in his last 10 games he has gone 10.2 innings and given up 5 earned runs while striking out 8, all lowering his ERA from 9.39 to 6.75. Not perfect, but certainly MUCH better than the first part of April.
RIP Nick Adenhart.
"When the Babe tries to call his shot, I hope Nick puts one in his ear."
--RallyMonkey5
To put it more precisely
Courtesy of here.
April Line:
8.1 IP, 0-2, 8.68 ERA, 10BB, 4K, 7H, 9R, 8ER
May Line
9.0 IP, 1-1, 5.00 ERA, 4BB, 8K, 9H, 5R, 5ER
I’d call that a definite improvement. Walks are WAY down, strikeouts are doubled, and he’s even got a win, though increased hits are a slight concern.
I’d be interested to see how many of those May hits and runs came after the injury cropped up, too. Who knows, maybe he’s been pitching on it all season and it’s just now getting worse.
RIP Nick Adenhart.
"When the Babe tries to call his shot, I hope Nick puts one in his ear."
--RallyMonkey5
Baseball 101
Don’t walk people, and don’t commit errors. If you start walking people, you’re out of there, and get someone in there who can get the Goddman job done. That’s the managers job to recognize that. Mike Scioscia is not. It’s also his responsibility to manufacture runs. I’m sick and tired of the Angels under-performing. They’re as talented as anybody in baseball yet they continue to beat themselves. It’s sickening.
I thought baseball 101
was to not walk in the winning run and to make a tag when a guy is trying to stretch a single into a double
#34 Nick Adenhart always an Angel
Versions of baseball 101...
If you didn’t walk people to begin with, the opportunity to walk in the winning run wasn’t a possibility.
The tag ordeal is in the part of commiting errors…. including mental errors.
I love these fanposts
its like reading Flowers for Algernon
This bullpen collapses faster than the Austro-Hungarian Empire
by HaloDutch on May 24, 2009 11:03 AM PDT reply actions 1 recs
Sweet Lord
I hope laughing as hard as I did at this comment doesn’t send me straight to hell with you.
Ca1 back on the "hate shields" campaign....
It seems like Rich Thompson would be a better choice to bring up than Rafael? Thoughts?
Do it for Nick '09
by BryanHarvey'sMoustache on May 24, 2009 11:12 AM PDT reply actions
Escobar
will be a starter, assuming he is completely healthy. Stop the ridiculous Joba-fanboy nonsense of wasting one of our best arms in the bullpen. Penny-wise and pound-foolish, my friends.
Bullpens can be very volatile over the course of the season and obviously a couple of our guys are having command issues, but there is still plenty of time to turn it around. If its still this bad through the summer, then we make a trade or find a gem somewhere in the minors, like Arredondo last year. Does anyone remember the last time our bullpen was this bad through the start of the year? I’m not smart enough to dig for the info, but if my memory serves me correctly it was 2002, and that ’pen turned out alright.
It would not be a waste to put him in the bullpen
Our top four starters are excellent, and we have very serviceable options at #5 with Palmer or Moseley. We have a greater need for a dominant back-end setup man, which Escobar has shown that he can be, than for a 5th starter.
In addition, because Escobar’s contract is up, we need not worry about the effect of putting him in the bullpen on his future ability to start. That is his problem as a free agent, not ours. As he already will have collected $9M last season and half of his $9.5M salary this season without throwing a pitch, the team should put its interests over his.
Well
Dominant starter eliminates need for bullpen. More precisely, the longer said dominant starter goes and the more dominant the said starter goes, the less need there is to bring in shaky bullpen arms and more opportunity to use the working bullpen arms.
RIP Nick Adenhart.
"When the Babe tries to call his shot, I hope Nick puts one in his ear."
--RallyMonkey5
There is some merit to this argument
But “eliminates” is not the correct word. More like “reduces.” Lackey went 7 innings last night and gave up three runs. We lost because of the 8th, 9th, and 10th innings. I would not expect more than that from Escobar.
Another point to consider: Even if we were to make Escobar our 5th starter thus gaining some improvement in starts that would have been made by Palmer or Moseley, can we reasonably expect Escobar to start in the postseason (assuming we make it that far)? If not, then that is another factor, in my opinion, that slants toward sending him to the bullpen.
Exaggeration was for effect
But yeah. The less—as in fewer innings in which—you need to go to the bullpen, the less you’re going to need to gamble on the shakier guys.
Having an offense, too, can be helpful in that a huge lead can allow those rookies and shakier guys to figure themselves out. Of course, when those rookies and shakier guys are so momentarily terrible as to blow 5 run leads, then you’re having more of a problem. ;-D
RIP Nick Adenhart.
"When the Babe tries to call his shot, I hope Nick puts one in his ear."
--RallyMonkey5
Let's put it this way
Recognizing that Escobar can go from starter to reliever but not the other way around, I am OK with trying him out as a starter. That will allow us to see a) how effective he is as a starter and b) whether Shields and Dondo (or someone else) can figure things out. If Escobar is effective as a starter and our bullpen rights itself, then he can stay there. If not, I think that we need to consider the alternative.
Yeah, sounds OK
It’s almost definitely better, I think, to keep Escobar stretched out as a starter at first—because it’s probably harder to get him stretched out in the “middle” (i.e., given that this is already approaching the middle of the season at more than 25% finished, his middle) of the season from the bullpen.
RIP Nick Adenhart.
"When the Babe tries to call his shot, I hope Nick puts one in his ear."
--RallyMonkey5
I agree with you otherwise
RIP Nick Adenhart.
"When the Babe tries to call his shot, I hope Nick puts one in his ear."
--RallyMonkey5
Also, in a divisional series
You’re right, unless Escobar is having a Cy Young-caliber season (can he even qualify for that as this point?) out of the starting rotation if and by the time you get to the playoffs—don’t forget that at the beginning of September, 2007, right before the injury happened, Escobar lead the league in ERA, at 2.88ish, and was being considered, along with Lackey, as a dark horse candidate for the Cy Young Award—then you probably wouldn’t see him starting in the ALDS. (How’s that for a run-on sentence?)
Instead, assuming everyone continues on their current great trends, you’d see a three-man rotation, as is typical for the ALDS, with a rotation of Lackey, Saunders, and Weaver, or Santana. Escobar would then come out of the bullpen, a la Weaver last year.
RIP Nick Adenhart.
"When the Babe tries to call his shot, I hope Nick puts one in his ear."
--RallyMonkey5
I think we agree
I am hopeful that our bullpen can turn this around on its own, and I have not by any means given up on Shields. But I do think that we need to be flexible because we have enough pieces to win this division and be dangerous in the postseason. But obviously you cannot win meaningful games unless you can get out of the 8th inning.
Yep
Sounds like we’re in agreement. I’d worry about keeping Escobar as the magical salve, though—for all we know he comes back and can’t pitch anymore. Anything we can get from him at this point is awesome and gravy.
But yeah, we agree, I think.
RIP Nick Adenhart.
"When the Babe tries to call his shot, I hope Nick puts one in his ear."
--RallyMonkey5
For the Angels and my fantasy team
I hope he can pitch!
Oh most definitely
RIP Nick Adenhart.
"When the Babe tries to call his shot, I hope Nick puts one in his ear."
--RallyMonkey5
To add to that...
Having Escobar instead of Palmer in the rotation should probably lower that slot’s ERA by about a run and I don’t think that’s an exaggeration. In turn that would create more wiggle room for the bullpen. And I’m sure the plan is to not have Escobar be the number 5 guy by the end of the year. If he stays healthy there’s no reason he can’t slot into the number 2 or 3 spot. Can you imagine going into the playoffs with a healthy Ervin, Lackey, and Escobar holding down the first 3 games? Put Saunders and Weaver in the pen and it solves our troubles there, too. The trick is just getting there…
Weaver in the pen?
He has been one of the most dominant pitchers in baseball through 1/4 of this season.
hes been very good.
Zach Greinke and Doc Halladay have been dominant. At their best, Escobar>Weaver. That’s not a knock on Jered, and that’s only if Kelvim is healthy.
Agreed...
Escobar will be in the rotation…and I suspect if he stays healthy will battle with Colonel and Ervin for the #1 spot…Escobar is that good when right!
Miss you Nick...! RIP
curious why we did not resign Garland?
He is a very good 4th or 5th starter. He eats up a lot of innings. With all the injuries, we could of used him this year.
by Ca1IFORNIA ANGELS on May 24, 2009 1:54 PM PDT up reply actions
because
matt palmer, 9th on our starting pitching depth chart, is as good as him.
by Rev Halofan on May 24, 2009 2:03 PM PDT up reply actions 1 recs
Haha, rec'd
RIP Nick Adenhart.
"When the Babe tries to call his shot, I hope Nick puts one in his ear."
--RallyMonkey5
Also because
he turned the Angels down. IIRC, the Angels offered him arbitration. He wanted to be a free agent and sign a multi-year deal. The Angels weren’t interested in paying him for several more years. They’d have taken one year; he wanted more.
Although cheaper...
Garland kept us in ball games last year and wasn’t a terrible 5th starter. It’s hard to argue with 20 quality starts for us in 2008… Just saying. We could have resigned him for what the DBacks signed him for, $6.25M. I would have been okay with that. The reason his ERA was so high was because he got blown up is last two starts of the season.
He also got blown up in about 10 other starts throughout the year
So there’s that, too. It’s not like he was this great pitcher who suddenly collapsed at the end and those cold, heartless Angels just let him go.
Garland could have re-signed with the Angels for 1 year, maybe $6.25 million, whatever. He could have accepted arbitration and gotten what, $12 million for one year? The Halos were perfectly willing to do that. Garland wanted something like 3 or 4 years at even more money. That’s just not happening for him now, or probably ever.
RIP Nick Adenhart.
"When the Babe tries to call his shot, I hope Nick puts one in his ear."
--RallyMonkey5
Palmer
Palmer is a career journey man. He has been really good this year, but did the Angels actually think he would have a start of the season as he has had? Today, he is off to a rough start, but overall he has had a good year. Just do not think the Angels planned on him being 5-0. Wish Garland is still hear, especially loosing Nick.
by Ca1IFORNIA ANGELS on May 24, 2009 2:08 PM PDT reply actions
if Garland had accepted arbiration from us
he would have made $12 Million. We offered it to him, he turned us down. Palmer is making 400 grand and WANTS to pitch in the OC.
Thank God for us
If he accepted that arbitration, no way we sign Abreu.
by Brody on May 24, 2009 2:34 PM PDT up reply actions 1 recs
Have you been out of the country for the last 6 months?
Garland was offered arbitration, where the worst he could have received was a one-year deal close to the $12M he earned in 2008. Instead, he rejected the offer and settled for a one-year plus option deal with the D’backs for $7M, with a mutual option for 2010 of $10M. That means, unless he overwhelms the D’backs with outstanding pitching in 2009, he’s a free agent again this Winter.
So, let’s review: The Angels didn’t show him the door, they offered him a chance to make approximately $12M, and he turned them down.
Clear now?
by George Kaplan on May 25, 2009 11:47 AM PDT up reply actions
where's the rallying cry for leaving Santana in the game longer tonight?
;)
Make some noise already people. Come on!
by Downing Rules on May 25, 2009 9:48 PM PDT reply actions 1 recs
I too was wondering Santana didnt throw a complete game
Baffled me. Scioscia clearly mismanages his bullpen.
RIP #34
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