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RE: Who missed K-ROD?  MEEEEEE!!!!

Fuentes has 2 losses and an ERA of like 7.  K-ROD has an ERA below 2 and is perfect in save opportunities.  Hypothetically the Angels would have a 12-11 record instead of a 10-13 record with K-Rod.

Furthermore, the Fuentes disease seems to have infected the entire bullpen.  Jose lost his dominance and Scot can't find the strike zone.

Someone commented that there's something wrong with the system.  If the system is flawed, how come Sanders and Weaver and the AAA starters don't seem to have contracted it?  When Santana and Lackey get back I think Palmer and Loux should go to the pen.

Someone else commented that Scioscia shouldn't use relievers.  That makes sense.  Let's just have Weaver and Saunders pitch every other day like Drysdale and Koufax.

K-ROD can listen to Kid Play and dance the funky chicken for all I care.  I don't care if Ocho Cinco was closing for us as long as the Angels the win.

This Fan-Post is authored by an independent fan. Tell us what you think and how you feel.

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The vocal bunches that insisted we didn't need K-Rod

mes thinks they were slightly spoiled by years and years of awesome closers into thinking “meh, that’s not so tough.”

by Caseys Kiss of Death on May 3, 2009 12:15 PM PDT reply actions   0 recs

its not.....

when you dont walk the leadoff guy…

Godspeed Nick - RIP - 1986-2009

by norcaliangelsfan on May 3, 2009 12:27 PM PDT up reply actions   0 recs

doesnt matter who closes....

Freaking speier can close…….and it helps…..when you dont let the leadoff guy get on with a free pass.

Godspeed Nick - RIP - 1986-2009

by norcaliangelsfan on May 3, 2009 11:31 PM PDT up reply actions   0 recs

He's talking about the rationalizations used last year.

In fairness, though, few didn’t think this way by the end of the year.

Angel Pitching (Adenhart), Angel Defense - get past that.

by vladtheimpaler on May 4, 2009 1:33 AM PDT up reply actions   0 recs

I know what he's talking about......

but it really doesnt matter because if Frankie wanted to be here….he would…

but he didnt….so turning the page.

Godspeed Nick - RIP - 1986-2009

by norcaliangelsfan on May 4, 2009 4:32 AM PDT up reply actions   0 recs

It's hard to come back when they don't offer you a contract because they are too focused on a guy who is

only using them to ratchet up the Yankee paycheck he’ll receive.

~Till the Halo burns out...

by Zu Long on May 4, 2009 9:00 PM PDT up reply actions   0 recs

They offered him one the year before.......

he turned it down……..

Why should they try any harder if he doesnt want to?

Godspeed Nick - RIP - 1986-2009

by norcaliangelsfan on May 4, 2009 11:18 PM PDT up reply actions   0 recs

Three year deal.

Play Wood already. Willits sucks.

by hauldog on May 5, 2009 12:19 PM PDT up reply actions   0 recs

So he signed a three year deal with the Mets didnt he?

Looks like to me….the Angels offer was more than fair…..

Godspeed Nick - RIP - 1986-2009

by norcaliangelsfan on May 5, 2009 12:24 PM PDT up reply actions   0 recs

it was...

but it wasn’t a 15M/yr and more than 3 years as he was looking for. I thought he was shooting for a 4yr/$60M contract.

In a year of such turmoil, whining still abounds.

by Downing Rules on May 5, 2009 2:04 PM PDT up reply actions   0 recs

Well he woulda had to take less money to stay

If he wanted to play for a dollar a day there wouldn’t have been an argument.

But remember, in the grand scheme of things, he’s probably got a whole village to support back in Venezuela. It’s hard to live large when your aunts, uncles, grandparents and cousins don’t have basic health care and security.

I got a fever and the only prescription is... more Kowbell!

by melvintoast on May 6, 2009 8:29 AM PDT up reply actions   0 recs

Really?

But…but I though Hugo Chavez was running a socialist utopia!

This bullpen collapses faster than the Austro-Hungarian Empire

by HaloDutch on May 6, 2009 8:35 AM PDT up reply actions   0 recs

are you sean penn?

Who goofed? I've got to know.

by hittheg on May 7, 2009 2:13 AM PDT up reply actions   0 recs

Do we know for sure that it wasnt kept?

I dont remember if I heard one way or another.

Godspeed Nick - RIP - 1986-2009

by norcaliangelsfan on May 6, 2009 6:38 AM PDT up reply actions   0 recs

Yeah

I remember you and stirrups. Maybe it just seemed to me like the majority were against.

Angel Pitching (Adenhart), Angel Defense - get past that.

by vladtheimpaler on May 5, 2009 12:52 AM PDT up reply actions   0 recs

That's the one

Angel Pitching (Adenhart), Angel Defense - get past that.

by vladtheimpaler on May 4, 2009 1:31 AM PDT up reply actions   0 recs

for melvintoast

Angel Pitching (Adenhart), Angel Defense - get past that.

by vladtheimpaler on May 4, 2009 1:45 AM PDT up reply actions   0 recs

WHOA WHOA....12-11?!?!?

man! You mean we would be in 2nd place and playing 500. ball???

Do it for Nick '09

by BryanHarvey'sMoustache on May 3, 2009 12:42 PM PDT reply actions   0 recs

That's one way to say it

another is to say that it has thus far resulted in a two game swing over 23 games, or, in a 162 game season, would result in a 14 game swing.

yet another is to say it results in a winning percentage differential of 8.6%.

by Caseys Kiss of Death on May 3, 2009 12:54 PM PDT up reply actions   0 recs

you could say that OR

you could make those same calculations using how many losses we can attribute to the rest of the bullpen and come to the conclusion that Fuentes is not the main problem and then by reaching that conclusion, you will reach the point of my sarcasm.

Do it for Nick '09

by BryanHarvey'sMoustache on May 3, 2009 2:27 PM PDT up reply actions   0 recs

You don't have to be the main problem

to be a big problem…and thus far, Fuentes has been a big problem, and as far as individual members of the bullpen go, two losses is a lot for a closer to have before one month is done.

I’m not going to start the doom-and-gloom crap, but a 1-for-1 swap out of Fuentes right now creates a significant swing thus far.

by Caseys Kiss of Death on May 3, 2009 3:23 PM PDT up reply actions   0 recs

Palmer is too good to throw in the pen.

Loux and Ortega should go when Lackey and Santana come back.

Lackey
Santana
Saunders
Weaver
Palmer

I am The Iron Man.

by 44FAN on May 3, 2009 12:51 PM PDT reply actions   0 recs

Escobar

I’m talking the near future.

I am The Iron Man.

by 44FAN on May 3, 2009 1:30 PM PDT up reply actions   0 recs

2 good starts.

I am The Iron Man.

by 44FAN on May 3, 2009 1:54 PM PDT up reply actions   0 recs

Plenty of time for a complete implosion

His history is inconsistent at best.

…However, I’d love to see this guy just turn it around, and he’s on his way.

What do you need a fancy suit for, Charlie, you ain't got no job to wear it to.

by clover_black on May 3, 2009 2:37 PM PDT up reply actions   0 recs

That's what being an Angels fan is about, right? :)

What do you need a fancy suit for, Charlie, you ain't got no job to wear it to.

by clover_black on May 3, 2009 9:57 PM PDT up reply actions   0 recs

what about mose?

RIP Nick Adenhart 4/9/09

by vlad IS my man on May 3, 2009 1:25 PM PDT reply actions   0 recs

Well then boohoo

I guess it’s goodbye…so long, don’t let the door hit your ass.

by Caseys Kiss of Death on May 3, 2009 3:24 PM PDT up reply actions   0 recs

*revolving door

I am The Iron Man.

by 44FAN on May 3, 2009 3:39 PM PDT up reply actions   0 recs

bullpen.

Will get better immediately. If we put Moseley/Palmer plus Loux back there along with Oliver.

Do it for Nick '09

by BryanHarvey'sMoustache on May 3, 2009 2:29 PM PDT up reply actions   0 recs

Maybe we can trade

our puss throwing closer and juicing 50 million dollar man for……ummmm……errrrrrrr…..a hitting coach. Wait, we still need a closer….

When I'm not at the stadium, I'd rather be watching my Halos back in Costa Rica!

by Dono Romantico on May 3, 2009 5:45 PM PDT reply actions   0 recs

Where'd all the Hatcher haters go?

I got a fever and the only prescription is... more Kowbell!

by melvintoast on May 3, 2009 5:47 PM PDT up reply actions   0 recs

I'm right here

RIP Nick. We will miss you!

by KingF15h on May 4, 2009 12:03 PM PDT up reply actions   0 recs

I miss Frankie's swagger

I loved the fact that Frankie would close out games with such bravado. The Angels kicked the crap out of the AL West the past 5 years (4 titles and a .580 winning percentage over 810 games). I don’t want this Angels team to lose that confidence, that presence, that attitude.

by Fan Since 1981 on May 3, 2009 8:17 PM PDT reply actions   0 recs

Me too

Loved his swagger, but many on this site began to hate it and claimed it was over the top.

Angel Pitching (Adenhart), Angel Defense - get past that.

by vladtheimpaler on May 4, 2009 1:37 AM PDT up reply actions   0 recs

Different strokes for different folks...

…I don’t like the sportsmanship shown by K-Rod. A lot of HH’ers did like it.
I was a basketball hound that closely followed John Wooden, even paying my way to attend his baskerball camp for 4 years. There wasn’t any swagger or bravado in UCLA’s championship teams, even though they flat dominated college basketball from the mid-60’s through his retirement in ’75.
Confidence yes, swagger and bravado, no. Ah well… I suspect this is a decided minority view among fans in general.

by sothball on May 4, 2009 10:45 AM PDT up reply actions   0 recs

it's not a tea party

it’s a highly competitive sporting contest at the professional level. bravado is necessary.

RIP #34

by linkbruin on May 4, 2009 12:35 PM PDT up reply actions   0 recs

K-Rod's bravado is necessary? OK...if that's what you want to believe I wouldn't try to change your mind.

I would point out a few things…
1) There have been many competitive athletes playing at the highest of professional levels for many years that didn’t resort to screaming, fist-pumping, and generally behaving with “bravado” upon completion of a play, victory, save or other similar event.
2) I fing it more professional that – after – trying to bash each others brains out for 3 periods, hockey players form a line and congratulate each other after the game.
3) I thought sportsmanship – you know, the kind we teach our kids – was the “essence” of a professional athlete. I suppose that is considered what…old-fashioned?
4) I realize that society and athletes have changed over the course of time, and there is a “market” for more than a game…fans want a show! I don’t know if that’s making for better competiton at sporting events, but I again acknowledge that I am likely in the miniority…and that “bravado” is here to stay. Just not sure what will constitute excessive bravado, or where it ends. I see NFL players now have special dances for particular types ok sacks. Oh well…there’s the show I suppose the fans want.

I think I will go get a cup of tea…

by sothball on May 4, 2009 1:10 PM PDT up reply actions   0 recs

Winning isn't everything

It’s the only thing – Vince Lombardi

GA gets trashed for being to cool. K-Rod gets trashed for being to brash. Everyone loved Magic because of his flamboyance and Kareem doesn’t get the same play because he’s grumpy.

Scoreboard.

I got a fever and the only prescription is... more Kowbell!

by melvintoast on May 4, 2009 2:31 PM PDT up reply actions   0 recs

I'm not sure...is that a rebuttal to what I wrote above?

I understand going out and trying to win as the “only thing”, especially from about high school varsity on up. How is that incompatible with good sportsmanship?
Kareem was grumpy? I guess that made Magic happy…Jamaal Wilkes was sleepy? I don’t want to know which was dopey. Come to think of it, I don’t know I’d describe any of ’em as dwarves…

by sothball on May 4, 2009 4:00 PM PDT up reply actions   0 recs

It was a celebration

I’m ok with that after winning a game, which is what he did. Bravado and sportsmanship are not two mutually exclusive ideas and should not be treated as such. Frankie never came off as a cocky guy in his interviews, maybe his post-game celebration was a little over the top…but shit, its not supposed to be devoid of emotion.

RIP #34

by linkbruin on May 4, 2009 5:20 PM PDT up reply actions   0 recs

I am guessing you are relatively young (20-something?)...

…so you can look forward to pondering/measuring how things change over your life cycle.
I recall an interview a few years ago with Ted Williams. He was cocky and brash when he first came up with the Red Sox. After his first home run, he showed the slightest bit of glee as he rounded the bases. When he got back to the dugout, the players, coaches, and managers glared at him. A few innings later, he was read the riot act by a couple of teammates, "…you DON’T show up the other team like that…what’s the matter with you?" Now maybe that was their own sense of self-preservation…they didn’t want the pitcher throwing at the next batter for "showboating". Or, maybe it was simple respect for one’s opponent. I’m not sure…maybe it was part of both, neither, more? I don’t know…Ted didn’t explain in the interview. Oh yes…the media also criticized his brash behavior.
If you see any subsequent home run by Williams, he is sprinting (yes, sprinting!) around the bases with his head down…no show of emotion whatsoever. It didn’t seem to diminish any of those 520 HR’s. He was…whupped?
Ah well…you can look forward to how "bravado" is expressed in 30-40 years, and perhaps ponder how it’s worse – or better depending on your perspective – than it was in your past. I see no reason that it won’t progress to more provocative behavior…why not? What’s to stop it? Adult opinion/reasoning left the building a long time ago…hey man, if it feels good, do it! Who the F**K are you to tell me it’s wrong! That’s just YOUR opinion…why should anyone care what you think?
I suppose the "bruin" in your name refers to UCLA. I’m guessing you would join with me in raising a toast to John Wooden…a damn good man. Cheers!

by sothball on May 4, 2009 7:07 PM PDT up reply actions   0 recs

Yeah, because K-Rod should be held not to the standard currently set by teams and players of all stripes

from home-run trots to high-five parties after a sac-bunt, but to the standard of a player who had stopped playing the game 20 years before K-Rod was even born.

K-Rod’s antics on the mound are a symptom of the game as it is. You can hate the present era all you want, but blaming K-Rod for it, and holding it against him as the entire representation of the kind of player he is seems unfair to me.

Ted Williams and your bygone era of “sportsmanship” didn’t have any problems with head-hunting or mound-charging. Nor did they place a great deal of emphasis on humility. Ted Williams never once tipped his hat to the crowd, not because he thought it was unsportsmanlike, but because he had decided early in his career that he didn’t like the way fans behaved, and refused to acknowledge them as a group.

~Till the Halo burns out...

by Zu Long on May 4, 2009 9:19 PM PDT up reply actions   0 recs

I disagree with the assessment that he is shoving it in the face of the opponent.

But first, lets be clear on some things:

I didn’t hold K-Rod to any particular standard.

You compared him to John Wooden and Ted Williams. Those would, I think, be particular representatives of what you termed sportsmanship, i.e. the standard you are holding him to.

I think there are a lot of things are different now than 20 or 30 years ago.

~Till the Halo burns out...

by Zu Long on May 4, 2009 10:12 PM PDT up reply actions   0 recs

Hit "post" before I meant to.
Do you believe that type of behavior has improved or become worse over the last 20-30 years? Do you think it was better 20-30 years ago or now?

I think there are many differences now. I don’t think it’s better or worse. Now instead of guys having contempt for their opponents and demanding the batter show proper “respect for” (i.e. “fear of”) the guy on the mound, like Goose Gossage might, some players celebrate. The percentage probably remains the same.

Joe Nathan is K-Rod’s contemporary, but he wasn’t the example you used. I could name Dennis Eckersley or Johnathon Paplebon as counterexamples though.

Not sure where you got the "bygone" impressions

It’s probably the fact that you kept using examples from 40-50 years ago and making references to other things age related, like how another poster could reflect on how things had declined 30-40 years in the future. Did you forget about those?

Your example of professional hockey games I found questionable, given that professional hockey is perhaps the only sport that has actually RITUALIZED the act players of descending into brawling. Sportsmaship to be admired, I’m sure. Major League baseball has at least taken steps to curb this practice in recent years, with some measure of success.

And I like the sportsmanship kids are taught in YMCA leagues, various municipal recreations leagues, grade school, middle and high schools.

An interesting point. Which of those are you suggesting the street urchin brought up by his lone grandmother in a poverty-stricken country run primarily by oil companies and drug lords for the benefit of themselves should have learned sportsmanship from?

~Till the Halo burns out...

by Zu Long on May 4, 2009 10:30 PM PDT up reply actions   0 recs

Ok...last comment tonight, then to bed...

You don’t believe sportsmanship has become better or worse in the last 30 years…OK.

The bygone thing…I cited both characteristics from 30-40 years ago AND contemporary. I’m not sure why that’s not clear…must be my crotchety age or something! Ha!

The street urchin victims of oil companies (did you know the 14 largest oil companies are government-run monopolies?) drug lords tied to sportsmanship taught at the YMCA connection somehow eluded me. Again, I bow to superior intellect. Good night, and sleep uptight!!

by sothball on May 4, 2009 10:42 PM PDT up reply actions   0 recs

It's not clear because you spent several times more writing space

on the bygone era vs the present.

At any rate, I do bid you a good night. Perhaps you will feel less passive-aggressive in the morning.

~Till the Halo burns out...

by Zu Long on May 4, 2009 10:52 PM PDT up reply actions   0 recs

Good morning!! I am not sure how the quantity of words matters...

…I’d have figured a balance of citations (past & present) would be more determinant…but to “balance the books” so to speak, let’s pretend this sentence is followed by a 1000 words on Cassius Clay/Muhammed Ali’s lack of sportsmanship in favor of showmanship.
Blah, blah, blah, yadda, yadda, especially when he kept referring to Joe Frazier as a monkey.
Now there’s an example from 30-40 years ago of what I consider a poor sport. But, he sold lots of tickets, made a ton of money, and is still mightily revered!
Passive-agressive…covering your bases, huh? Well you characterized me in this exchange…how would you characterize yourself?

by sothball on May 5, 2009 5:51 AM PDT up reply actions   0 recs

Quantity of words matters because it leaves a more lasting impression on the reader.

If I write a book on a given subject, like say “Fusion power is the future of energy”, and in my energy blog I have sentence about short-term wind power, which do you suppose I have stronger feelings for? Which do you suppose people will remember my stance on? The comments on this blog scale downward, but the same principle applies. Readers assume that if you write about something a lot, they’re supposed to remember it. If you write about something as an aside, they’ll probably pay less attention to it.

As for your questions, I’m not sure what you think I’m covering my bases against. I would characterize myself as straight forward, with occasional uses of sarcastic irony and rhetorical questions for effect.

~Till the Halo burns out...

by Zu Long on May 5, 2009 9:19 PM PDT up reply actions   0 recs

What you were cooveringyour bases against...

…i was an attempt at a bit of humor. You had characterized me as passive-aggressive, which are like…antonym/synonym. It just sounded funny…like you could cite me for either/or or both. Covering your bases!

I asked for your self-characterization since you had characterized me. I didn’t offer a characterization of you…I don’t believe I know you well enough to offer a partial ZuLong assessment (beyond your rough age/gender which you confirmed in another post).
Cheers!

by sothball on May 5, 2009 9:32 PM PDT up reply actions   0 recs

I wasn't aware you had to know someone to analyze

the rhetorical strategy they are using in an argument.

~Till the Halo burns out...

by Zu Long on May 5, 2009 10:00 PM PDT up reply actions   0 recs

Apples and oranges,,,

…you answered above on “rhetorical strategy”, when I was assessing “character” as in asking you for “self-characterization”. No big deal though.

by sothball on May 6, 2009 3:48 AM PDT up reply actions   0 recs

Finally as far as "hating" the present era...

I got that impression from what you wrote. Namely:

I realize that society and athletes have changed over the course of time, and there is a "market" for more than a game…fans want a show! I don’t know if that’s making for better competiton at sporting events, but I again acknowledge that I am likely in the miniority…and that "bravado" is here to stay. Just not sure what will constitute excessive bravado, or where it ends. I see NFL players now have special dances for particular types ok sacks. Oh well…there’s the show I suppose the fans want.
Ah well…you can look forward to how “bravado” is expressed in 30-40 years, and perhaps ponder how it’s worse – or better depending on your perspective – than it was in your past. I see no reason that it won’t progress to more provocative behavior…why not? What’s to stop it? Adult opinion/reasoning left the building a long time ago…hey man, if it feels good, do it! Who the F**K are you to tell me it’s wrong! That’s just YOUR opinion…why should anyone care what you think?

These seem to indicate an intense dislike of the present state of sports. If this is an incorrect interpretation, and you were saying nothing of the sort, then I apologize.

~Till the Halo burns out...

by Zu Long on May 4, 2009 10:36 PM PDT up reply actions   0 recs

Well there's a huge sliding (ascending?) scale...

…from mild dislike to hatred. Heck “intense dislike” is somewhere on that scale…but that isn’t hate. It’s intense dislike. That’s a part of why we have words, to make these distinctions. Hatred is a term reserved for those that harm others for no reason other than they happen to be in heir way…like the creatures that fly aircraft buildings. Those people I truly hate. K-Rod…not even close. I actually like him…a lot! The pointing to the sky in honor of his grandfather is quite touching and commendable. The primal scream fist-pump is over the top. But that doesn’t provoke hatred…not even close.

Now the 2nd citation above is wild speculation of how things may become, not as they are. I can see conditions present for some “celebrations” to become worse/more provocative. Will they? I don’t know…only time will tell.

I hope you have a good Tuesday!

by sothball on May 5, 2009 6:04 AM PDT up reply actions   0 recs

As far as the first part of your post:

Dictionary.com

hate

–verb (used with object)
1. to dislike intensely or passionately; feel extreme aversion for or extreme hostility toward; detest: to hate the enemy; to hate bigotry.
2. to be unwilling; dislike: I hate to do it.
–verb (used without object)
3. to feel intense dislike, or extreme aversion or hostility.
–noun
4. intense dislike; extreme aversion or hostility.
5. the object of extreme aversion or hostility.

Emphasis mine. :-P

I find the rest of your post entirely agreeable.

~Till the Halo burns out...

by Zu Long on May 5, 2009 9:27 PM PDT up reply actions   0 recs

OK. I sit corrected.

In the architecture of my own mind there’s actually a large number of variables that provoke my like/dislike for any given individual. And – rather than on a sliding left-right scale, this like/dislike expands along multi-dimensional axes.
To add to the complexity, it’s possible to mildly/intensely dislike one’s behavior while still liking the person. For example, there are many people whom I intensely disagree with on politics/sports/religion, yet I truly like them on a personal level. Their personal views do not affect my affection for them.
Anyway, that’s all for this evening. Once again, it’s my bedtime. Have a great evening!

by sothball on May 5, 2009 9:40 PM PDT up reply actions   0 recs

I am 52. and a half.

Wooden didn’t want his players celebrating a win for the same reason he didn’t want them upset or angry after a loss: conservation of energy.

My rule is simple: I will agree that the celebrations of any successful closer are out of line when every baseball team agrees to NOT throw a mad, team-wide, equipment throwing, orgasmic, mini-World series styled, dancing fool celebration at home plate when the offense wins on a walk-off.

by Stirrups on May 4, 2009 9:34 PM PDT up reply actions   0 recs

Well, that was one reason, but not there only reason.

He held the same view of winning even after championship games, when there was no longer reason to conserve energy.
Regardless, I would agree with you “celebrations” rule. Chances of it happening? Yeah…zero.

by sothball on May 4, 2009 10:06 PM PDT up reply actions   0 recs

Every older generation believes the younger generation represents the downfall of society

This is slightly grandiose, but it also doesn’t negate my point. These are (relatively) young individuals playing a highly competitive sport at the highest level. I dont see why they shouldnt enjoy and celebrate their individual and team accomplishments. I’m sure you get happy when your team does well, why dont the players enjoy that same right? Why must they keep their “head down” with “no show of emotion whatsoever?” Simply put…thats boring.

And Zu Long made a good point about the fans. There was no connect to them in the past, and thats what some of the current era’s “antics” represent. You can even bring this all back to John Wooden. The seats in Pauley were purposely designed to keep the fans as far away as possible, it was seen as more as an afternoon at the theater. This was all done at Wooden’s specific request. Today that is not the case, and one of the big reasons for the Pauley renovation.

It’s a different game. But hey, it’s still a great one. Players aren’t worse than in previous eras, nor is the game going to devolve into some show where the players do what the want. You see a downfall of the game; I see an evolution of the game.

And your ideas on it progressing into even more provocative behavior where people do what they want is very Nietschean. And those ideas came into play before Ted Williams was even born. I get where you’re coming from, but things are not as bad as you make them seem. The game is still baseball.

It’s the job of the elder generation to say things are getting worse and you kids have it so easy nowadays. It’s humbling to us young-ins. But that doesn’t make it true.

RIP #34

by linkbruin on May 4, 2009 9:34 PM PDT up reply actions   0 recs

I'm curious...

…did you write “Every older generation believes the younger generation represents the downfall of society” because you think that’s what I think, or because that’s what you want me to think?
For the record, I think every generation is about as screwed up as the next (or last). In fact, I think my generation was – in many ways – far worse than the present (or previous) generation. I think my generation is composed of some of the most selfish navel-gazers ever let loose on the planet.
No connection to fans in the past? Well, I will leave that to better minds than mine to decipher. I can tell you that my father was about as rabid a fan imaginable. Fans disconnected? Tell that to Giant and Dodger fans in Queens and Brooklyn. One of the most quoted/memorable lines of baseball came from a young fan in 1919…“Say it ain’t so Joe”.

Anyway, it actually is possible for some behaviors to get worse while others get better. It’s actually possible for sportsmanship to improve in baseball and get worse in football…or for sportsmanship to generally improve in high school and get worse at the pro level.
My general view over the years is that sportsman has become worse in some pro sports, and that behavior has carried over – to a degree – to other levels of competition, including high school.. That doesn’t make it universal, nor does it signal the decline of civilization as we know it.

Where did i write that I see the downfall of a game? Another straw man argument! Geez…you guys are moving ‘em down tonight. Again, I wrote that some behavior after games does not appear to be sportsmanlike. You seem to agree by stating of K-Rod “..his post-game celebration was a little over the top”. On that, we agree. It would be nice to see it scaled back a bit..that’s all. And if you don’t like that, I’m going to come over to your residence, let out a few big fist-pumping war whoops, and dance on your lawn!!! Good night!!!!

by sothball on May 4, 2009 10:31 PM PDT up reply actions   0 recs

I think you should re-read your own last paragraph
I see no reason that it won’t progress to more provocative behavior…why not? What’s to stop it? Adult opinion/reasoning left the building a long time ago…hey man, if it feels good, do it! Who the F**K are you to tell me it’s wrong! That’s just YOUR opinion…why should anyone care what you think?

Sounds like a signaling of the downfall of the game. Or at least the celebratory antics involved with it. For my argument to be a straw man one, you would have to not argue this point. It’s right here. I’m not assigning you beliefs nor values.

And no, I don’t think you think that at all about elder generations. I’m merely stating an a fact that has been true over the course of human history. All people hear the same story from their parents or grandparents about how they how it so hard and how times used to be simpler and people used to be better more upstanding individuals. Its a psychologically conditioned response to aging. Been reinforced time and time again.

The fans are a lot closer to the game now then they were before. Case in point…this blog. There was much more a disconnect between players and fans in the past since the players were revered as some sort of heroes. Today they’re individuals with an extraordinary talent…not a hero. Fans want to be entertained, as does the media. This allows for the antics we see now. Yeah its different. No “sportsmanship” hasn’t deteriorated…just been redefined. Yeah K-Rod’s celebration might be a little over the top, but where you see a bad thing in his antics I just see something I wouldnt do. By all means tone it up. It’s a celebration.

RIP #34

by linkbruin on May 4, 2009 10:57 PM PDT up reply actions   0 recs

Hmmm... sometimes I reach a point where I think I'm covering old ground...

…and I’m reduced to repetition. what you cited above is from an earlier post, and I thought I clarified that in the comment directly above with this;

Anyway, it actually is possible for some behaviors to get worse while others get better. It’s actually possible for sportsmanship to improve in baseball and get worse in football…or for sportsmanship to generally improve in high school and get worse at the pro level.
My general view over the years is that sportsman has become worse in some pro sports, and that behavior has carried over – to a degree – to other levels of competition, including high school.. That doesn’t make it universal, nor does it signal the decline of civilization as we know it.

So, it appears to me that you are setting up an argument I have not made. I hope I have helped lift the fog of misunderstanding and showered these comments with abundant sunshine.
One last question. If you believe that , “sportsmanship hasn’t deteriorated…just been redefined”, I suppose – by extension – you wouldn’t have the slightest objection to teaching children this new sportsmanship…yes or no?

by sothball on May 5, 2009 6:20 AM PDT up reply actions   0 recs

I would not object

The values of society change over time. You can extend this thinking in many other areas. What’s important now is not the same as what was important 20 years ago. There’s a great Keynes quote that I think is pertinent here:

 “When the facts change, I change my mind. What do you do sir?”

This was done in answering some of his early critics and the intial troubles of his demand side economics. The beliefs and values of society are constantly changing. One can adapt and change with it or hold steadfast to tradition/old values. It’s two different modes of thinking and approaching the world. It would be boring if we all thought the same.

And I’m actually not sure what your quote was proving. You’re still saying the concept of sportsmanship has declined; it doesn’t refute what it seemed like you thought was the end game…anarchic attitudes of athletes. But that’s really neither here nor there.

I don’t really think you’re wrong, I just disagree with you. Thats the point I’m trying to make.

RIP #34

by linkbruin on May 5, 2009 9:29 AM PDT up reply actions   0 recs

I love nothing more than clarity…

…and this is one of those rare opportunities to find it.

To that end;
1) You view of the "new sportsmanship" includes K-Rod’s primal screams and fist-pumps. From what I have read above, this could include a greater degree of "in your face" behavior.
2) You would not have the slightest objection to teaching this behavior to children.

Just want to be 100% certain I have not mis-characterized your thoroughly modern "thinking and approach to the world".

by sothball on May 5, 2009 12:30 PM PDT up reply actions   0 recs

The "new sportsmanship"

I believe is more about entertainment than anything. More about having fun rather than a respect for the other team. So yeah, I’d be ok with that.

And my approach to the world isn’t a modern one, I dont kid myself. Some people adapt, some people hold to what they have. Those two ideas are pretty consistent throughout human history.

RIP #34

by linkbruin on May 5, 2009 4:14 PM PDT up reply actions   0 recs

PERFECT.

The goal as described above is that our children be entertained and have fun as values higher than respect for the other team. FAN-tastic! I would LOVE, absolutely love to see your future son/daughter/niece/nephew/friend’s son or daughter facing a team full of little Johnny MnEnroe’s. As the other 6-7 year olds engage in the “new sportsmanship”, I’m sure your words – that sports is really about entertainment and having fun, forget respect for your efforts – will be especially comforting. “Don’t worry…you’ll adapt”. Hey…it’s a tough life kid grow the HELL up!!!
Think of the possibilities for international competition! Ugly American…DUDE, you ain’t seen nothing yet! Olympics spirit… Ha!! In a few years of the new sportsmanship, we could spread the “good cheer” of war whoops, primal screams, fist pumps, and more to the farthest reaches of the globe! Respect for one’s opponents…we could make that old fashioned in 5-10 years!

I think you are on something here…why we could have K-Rod doing PSA’s on the new sportsmanship! “If you want to really piss-off an opponent, pretend to urinate on their logo. It will drive the fans wild! This is K-Rod, for the Boys and Girls Clubs of America”. You have opened my eyes to a whole new world of possibilities in sports entertainment. Thanks for that.

Best of luck to you. Take care!

by sothball on May 5, 2009 8:56 PM PDT up reply actions   0 recs

Seems like its all hyperbole

And too much to do about nothing.

Let K-Rod have his little celebrations. He is getting paid millions of dollars to do so and you mean, he cannot show any satisfaction of a job well done?

If he didn’t show emotion in saving 30, 40 games a year, people won’t say ‘good job Mariano Rivera,’ but ‘why doesn’t he give a crap?’

He isn’t showing up the opponent, but letting some pressure go.

 

Who misses Frankie? I don't...

by BBFan1 on May 6, 2009 2:08 AM PDT up reply actions   0 recs

I'm pretty sure you misunderstood everything I just said

I’m not even sure where you’re coming from anymore.

RIP #34

by linkbruin on May 6, 2009 2:47 AM PDT up reply actions   0 recs

OK. I'll always accept...

…the possibility it’s me that mis-understood. However;
1) Did I ask you to clarify above what constitutes some behaviors of your “new sportsmanship”? CHECK.
2) Did I ask you to confirm you would not have the slightest objection to teaching this “new sportsmanship” to children? CHECK.

If we are going to teach children – as you would not object to – that their fun and entertainment are values superior to respect for one’s opponents, then I think you will see more K-Rod type behaviors. I think a team full of Johnny McEnroe’s is a likely result. Flawed logic? Perhaps.

by sothball on May 6, 2009 4:15 AM PDT up reply actions   0 recs

OK...

I chose John McEnroe since he is a classic example of not having respect for one’s opponents, judges, etc..

So pull John McEnroe and substitute K-Rod. Would you want to coach against a team of 8-9 year olds that act like K-Rod upon thier victory?

by sothball on May 6, 2009 4:10 PM PDT up reply actions   0 recs

I dont think John McEnroe was out there having fun

He was just an asshole. And an asshole will always be an asshole.

I’m saying its more about having fun then about respecting the other team. Doesn’t mean it doesn’t exist anymore…there’s just been a shift.

RIP #34

by linkbruin on May 6, 2009 12:29 PM PDT up reply actions   0 recs

You made a comment to me above...

…about being “slightly grandiose”, then you make pronouncements like “An asshole will always be an asshole”. Since this was said specifically in reference to John McEnroe, I am not sure that’s true. He appears to have mellowed with age…at least his public/braodcasting persona. Beyond him (hell, I don’t know the guy) I actually know of several people that became or have become far less “assholy” as they matured, or emerged better (humbler?) from some life crisis (AA program, loss of a family member, etc).

For the record, I started with “I understand different strokes for different folks” and I didn’t like K-Rod’s more “in-your-face” celebrations. About 150 thousand words later, it appears we both remain where we started. Oh well!!
Hope you enjoy the game this evening…a chance to get back to .500…

by sothball on May 6, 2009 4:24 PM PDT up reply actions   0 recs

You still push the grandiose with the "teams full of McEnroes"

I dont think it’s entirely out of the question in calling John McEnroe an asshole; I’m 98% sure most people would agree with me. People mellow with age because it takes a lot more energy to be an in your face person…just not worth it anymore.

But I think you saying McEnroe has mellowed out is going a little against your point. But whatever, nothing here going to change…we just have different viewpoints.

RIP #34

by linkbruin on May 7, 2009 1:42 AM PDT up reply actions   0 recs

I think you need swagger

The finger pointing to the sky is theatrical, but it is also a gesture for his grandfather who raised him.

We may mock it, deride it or simply hate it [because it supposedly shows poor sportsmanship], but it is part of what made K-Rod special [in the hearts of Angels fans at one time in his career up through his last save in the Angels uniform].

Who misses Frankie? I don't...

by BBFan1 on May 5, 2009 4:25 AM PDT up reply actions   0 recs

If K-Rod had posted the same stats as Fuentes has so far

No one would be making excuses for him.

He would be burned at the stakes by now.

Who misses Frankie? I don't...

by BBFan1 on May 3, 2009 9:38 PM PDT reply actions   0 recs

I'm still not giving up on Fuentes

Hell, what choice do I have. C’mon son, buckle down.

Angel Pitching (Adenhart), Angel Defense - get past that.

by vladtheimpaler on May 4, 2009 1:42 AM PDT reply actions   0 recs

i hope so

after all the set backs with that shoulder, do you think it can hold up on back 2 back nights?

by HALO_86 on May 4, 2009 10:13 AM PDT up reply actions   0 recs

Okay so having a weak closer doesn't make a difference?

When teams lose it usually isn’t a single problem. It is usually a number of problems. That’s why it’s called a team. Everyone has to step up. I’m just pointing out that all you Hatcher and K-Rod haters can eat crow. At least until the team goes into a slump and/or Brian Fuentes stops pitching like Tito Fuentes.

I got a fever and the only prescription is... more Kowbell!

by melvintoast on May 4, 2009 2:35 PM PDT up reply actions   0 recs

Agreed

Toast says that Fuentes “infected” the whole bullpen and I just don’t see how that is possible considering that they have all been bad to start the season (exception of Old Man Oliver). You could probably make an argument that it was the other way around as well. Bottom line is that these guys need to get better, back to form or whatever you want to call it and fast.

While I don’t think any of the other 3 teams in the West are built to run away from the pack – can’t be throwing away opportunities and drop games when you have a 5 run lead with 2 to play.

We need a pitcher...not a DL itcher!

by gorams77 on May 5, 2009 12:12 AM PDT up reply actions   0 recs

I'm not a Fuentes hater but

I sure as hell missed Frankie on Friday night

When the Yankee fans yelled “Angels Suck!!” I just stared, nodded and said “yes we do.”

GA GA he's the man, if he can't do it, no one can

by Moondoggy on May 4, 2009 3:38 PM PDT reply actions   0 recs

I would rather have kept Frankie

K-Rod has great stuff, even though he can be wild. He still got the job done and done well. You gotta think he strikes a bit more fear in hitters that Fuentes does.

There just isn’t that buzz in the crowd anymore when the closer comes out, like there was with Percy then Frankie. Who knows? maybe Fuentes will eventually create a buzz, but for now I wish Frankie didn’t leave.

They should rename Angel Stadium to "Heaven"

by ryanb517 on May 4, 2009 6:20 PM PDT reply actions   0 recs

Frankie can suck a fatty

as the kids say

This bullpen collapses faster than the Austro-Hungarian Empire

by HaloDutch on May 5, 2009 8:06 AM PDT reply actions   0 recs

I thought they smoked those.

In a year of such turmoil, whining still abounds.

by Downing Rules on May 5, 2009 8:23 AM PDT up reply actions   0 recs

I'm sucking on a cuban fatty right now and it tastes pretty good!

I got a fever and the only prescription is... more Kowbell!

by melvintoast on May 5, 2009 4:53 PM PDT up reply actions   0 recs

I met her at the tobacco shop.

I got a fever and the only prescription is... more Kowbell!

by melvintoast on May 6, 2009 8:29 AM PDT up reply actions   0 recs

Does your wife know?

Angel Pitching (Adenhart), Angel Defense - get past that.

by vladtheimpaler on May 7, 2009 2:23 AM PDT up reply actions   0 recs

I shared it with her

I got a fever and the only prescription is... more Kowbell!

by melvintoast on May 7, 2009 9:26 PM PDT up reply actions   0 recs

Innocent bystander...

I’m just an innocent bystandr for the most part out here these days. I used to spend an unhealthy amount of time out here, then kids came, etc.

I will say early last year I came out to the site to see a bunch of guys dogging GA/K-Rod/Mathis while stroking the Napolis of the world regardless of what either side do, as usual. (for the record, I like all these guys)

I pretty much sat out the rest of the season and from independently watching I just thought GA surprisingly helped us in a big way, and K-Rod was fantastic after developing that changeup which more than offset his loss in velocity. I came out here expecting to see a ‘wow, I can’t believe how well these guys are doing’ sentiment.

Instead, same old same old. GA sucks, get rid of K-Rod, do what you can to keep the rent a player Tex who we all know was only in it for the money, etc.

We need to learn one thing with closers. We always hear that if the closer leaves, we’ll just move the stud setup man to the closer spot! That only works if you have a stud to fill in for the guy that did pitch the 8th, and if its the guy that pitched the 7th, then you need a stud to fill that spot too. K-Rod was money in the bank for 40 saves year after year. He was a HUGE part of our only title and continued to be productive. He should have stayed an Angel IMO or at the very least we should have made it clear that we even WANTED him.

I also always find it funny how we heard so much about his flamboyance and rubbing it in to the opponents, when he’d end a save by pointing to the heavens while not facing the other team or even the plate, but yet we continue to hear how intense and noble Papelbon is with his fist pumping towards the dugout after every save. Why is that?

by thewebb on May 5, 2009 9:00 PM PDT reply actions   0 recs

You don't hear anyone here calling Papelbon "intense and noble."

the east coast loving networks may be on his nuts all the time but we have different things we call Papelbon here – I’ll let you guess some of them…

We need a pitcher...not a DL itcher!

by gorams77 on May 5, 2009 10:19 PM PDT up reply actions   0 recs

i like to call him

Papelbon. not sure what you guys call him.

"Man, this is baseball. You gotta stop thinking. Just have fun. I mean, if you were having fun you would've caught that ball."

by wallispdub1 on May 6, 2009 10:24 AM PDT up reply actions   0 recs

I call him ShitBird

We need a pitcher...not a DL itcher!

by gorams77 on May 6, 2009 11:21 PM PDT up reply actions   0 recs

I call him "good paper"

Make some noise already people. Come on!

by Downing Rules on May 7, 2009 10:52 AM PDT up reply actions   0 recs

You will lose your innocence fast on this site

And I agree with most of what you just said.

Angel Pitching (Adenhart), Angel Defense - get past that.

by vladtheimpaler on May 5, 2009 10:24 PM PDT up reply actions   0 recs

Papelbon vs. K-Rod

Is seen as a ‘cowboy’ whose intensity and celebratory antics is the stuff of lore among the loyal Boston Red Sox faithful. Anything he does cements his character as a good natured fella whom no one will bitch about after he grabs himself and pumps his fist after a save.

K-Rod is a scrawny little shit who came out of wherever he came from to act like he is some big shot who is too good for the Angels’ money. Yeah, sure he had some good games at the end of 2002, but he was never as good as Troy Percival or even Brian Harvey. Who is he to be pointing to the heavens to pay tribute to his grandfather? Show some class boy, you ain’t no rook.

Who misses Frankie? I don't...

by BBFan1 on May 6, 2009 2:03 AM PDT up reply actions   0 recs

You got kids by hanging out here?

yikes.

In a year of such turmoil, whining still abounds.

by Downing Rules on May 6, 2009 7:47 AM PDT up reply actions   0 recs

Frankie

if he was as dominant as Papelbon closing games then i wouldn’t have any problems with his celebrating after every save. he just isn’t. did he get the job done? yes, but he just wasn’t dominant.

by HALO_86 on May 6, 2009 10:37 AM PDT reply actions   0 recs

maybe not dominant

but boy he sure has some filthy stuff

They should rename Angel Stadium to "Heaven"

by ryanb517 on May 6, 2009 11:43 AM PDT up reply actions   0 recs

As I always say: you are quibbling over style points

He got the job done. That is all that counts. HOW he got the job done means zilch as long as he got the job done. He did. Period.

by Stirrups on May 6, 2009 12:29 PM PDT up reply actions   0 recs

celebrating

thats all i’m talking about. not how he got the job done. theirs a huge diff when your dominant like Eck was and pumped his fist. or when Paplebon does it. when Frankie closes its like, “wow he barely got it done” sense. i have np celebrating, its just be dominant like them.

by HALO_86 on May 6, 2009 12:44 PM PDT up reply actions   0 recs

There are very few dominant closers in the game

Frankie is one. You are quibbling over nothing. Is Paplebon going to pitch for us? No. Could we have retained one of the few dominant closers in the game? Probably.

To say that Frankie is not a dominating closer would be crazy. To say that Paplebon may be more dominant than a dominant closer who pitches for us means nothing to me as an Angel fan.

Angel Pitching (Adenhart), Angel Defense - get past that.

by vladtheimpaler on May 7, 2009 2:43 AM PDT up reply actions   0 recs

He didn't here you

Angel Pitching (Adenhart), Angel Defense - get past that.

by vladtheimpaler on May 7, 2009 2:30 AM PDT up reply actions   0 recs

or there you

Make some noise already people. Come on!

by Downing Rules on May 7, 2009 10:52 AM PDT up reply actions   0 recs

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