Yahoo Article: Could Matt Holliday end up with the Angels?

by matt92130 on Jun 21, 2009 8:25 AM PDT Comment 41 comments

This is the first time I've seen anything like this directly linking Matt Holliday to the Angels. It appears to be typical LA Times speculation, but nonetheless, news for the Angels. If the link doesn't work, paste into your browser and shoot me later.... But anyways, here is the link below:

http://sports.yahoo.com/mlb/rumors/post/Could-Matt-Holliday-end-up-with-the-Angels-?urn=mlb,171608

Anyone out there with opinions?

This Fan-Post is authored by an independent fan. Tell us what you think and how you feel.

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I hope not

by HaloFanInDC on Jun 21, 2009 8:48 AM PDT reply actions 0 recs

if youre asking if i'd rather have matt holliday or vlad, i'd say holliday

baseball salaries will be down and he’s not having the type of year teixeira did last year in his contract year so he might come at a relatively decent price if the yankees and mets stay out of it.

sure, he’s not going to be the MVP-type player he was in colorado, but if you look at his numbers since may 1st, he’s actually been pretty great and kind of fits the Angels profile skill-wise. Maybe that 1st month was more adjustment to a new league and terrible park than him just being inept outside of Coors?

Unless there’s better options out there that are realistic (i dont consider Jason Bay a realistic target), i see no reason why not to. This team could potentially be out of Figgins, Vlad, Lackey and Abreu…so it’s not like the money wont be there to spend

maybe i’m crazy but to me he kind of profiles as a slightly younger, more powerful Torii Hunter…and torii has worked out great for us thus far.

RIP Nick Adenhart

by ihearhowie2.0 on Jun 21, 2009 9:14 AM PDT reply actions 0 recs

Depends on the salary...

I think numbers are deflated in Oakland slightly due to all the foul territory. A lot of batters never get to see that extra pitch… and while his numbers have not been eye-popping in OAK, they are respectable. He’s currently on pace for a .273BA, 19HR, 92 RBI’s, 82 runs, 28 doubles, 78 walks, 19 SB’s, and .373 OBP. His fielding numbers are .993 which is solid, but a career .981. Another up-side is he’ll be 30 at the start of next season, which is most players prime. I don’t believe he deserves $15M annually, but I’d sign him for $60M for 5 years ($12M per), and of course incentives (All-Star teams, lead club in catergories, ect.). He’s also had some post-season success.

by matt92130 on Jun 21, 2009 9:15 AM PDT reply actions 1 recs

he wants Torii Hunter money im assuming, so $90mill/5yrs

possibly even more

by mastermind565 on Jun 21, 2009 9:49 AM PDT up reply actions 0 recs

North worth it at $18M per

And the Angels should not pay that. Torrii is earning his salary this year. His kind of production warrants $18M. Not Hollidays numbers, I think $12M is a good offer for Holliday. If he can do better than $12M per for 5 years, he should take it.

by matt92130 on Jun 21, 2009 10:01 AM PDT up reply actions 0 recs

torii hunter signed in a much stronger economy

people are saying jason bay, who’s having a crazy year, might not get more than 65-75 million.

i see holliday getting somewhere between 12-15, depending on how he finishes this season. there will be no mark teixeira, CC contracts this offseason.

RIP Nick Adenhart

by ihearhowie2.0 on Jun 21, 2009 10:51 AM PDT up reply actions 0 recs

Holliday fits in 2 the Angels style of ball as well… A guy that can run and steal bases and put pressure on the defense.. I would be hesitant only if the salary demands are high…
I wonder though if it comes down to siging him or Abreu what it comes down 2 ??

by raven191 on Jun 21, 2009 10:41 AM PDT up reply actions 0 recs

That's a great question...

I honestly think I’d side with Holliday because of his age, and he’s in his prime. Even more difficult is Holliday batting .305 W/ RISP this year and Abreu batting .318 w/ RISP. Abreu has a .394 OBP where as Holliday has .373. Vlad on the other hand has .303 w/ RISP and a .320 OBP. Vlads numbers have steadily decreased over the years.

All that being said, I’d like to keep Abreu and sign Holliday, and let Vlad walk.

C. Napoli
1st. Morales
2nd. Kendrick
SS. Wood
3rd. Figgins
LF. Holliday / Rivera
CF. Hunter
RF. Rivera / Abreu
DH. Abreu / Rivera / Holliday

by matt92130 on Jun 21, 2009 10:57 AM PDT up reply actions 0 recs

I'd put the chances of signing both Abreu and Holliday at just above zero

Abreu is old, seeks a multi-year contract, and plays the same position.

by mattwelch on Jun 21, 2009 12:17 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs

Regardless of age...

You can’t argue with production. I would give him a 2-year deal w/ a mutual 3rd year option for $16M ($24M), breaking it down to $8M per. He’s playing solid ball and I think it would be in our best interest to extend him for those years. I don’t know how you find an argument to hold up to a .299 BA, .394 OBP, .318 BA w/ RISP, and averaging out to 90 RBI’s. Production does not have to be by way of the long ball. We have guys who are going to that for us next year. Namely, Napoli, Morales, Wood, Rivera, Hunter, and Holliday (If signed). All six named are capable of hitting 20HR’s apiece.

Production is timely hitting, by way of gaps (doubles), hitting behind the runner, sacrafices, not striking out. Abreu does all those things, and well. What’s not to like?

by matt92130 on Jun 21, 2009 12:50 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs

Not to sound too aggresive with you here mattwelch

But Abreu is a RF and Holliday is a LF. All I did is substitute Holliday for Vlad.

by matt92130 on Jun 21, 2009 12:55 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs

The corner OF spots are essentially interchangeable

by mattwelch on Jun 21, 2009 3:12 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs

What's not to like is only that we have a limited budget for old corner OFs

I would prefer to spend that budget on a one-year dear w/ Vlad. If that fails, maybe two years max w/ Abreu, assuming we don’t sign a Holliday. But Abreu will likely seek three years, and I want no part of that, due to predictable decline.

by mattwelch on Jun 21, 2009 3:14 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs

I'm with you on "Over-priced" aging outfielders...

I don’t see Abreu pushing for Vlad type money ($15M for 2009). Probably along the lines of $5-$8M. Like I said above, I would give him a 2-year deal w/ a mutual (team/player) 3rd year option for $16M ($24M), breaking it down to $8M per. If anything, you still save $12M from the previous year based on what Vlad ($15M) and Abreu ($5M) made combined, minues Abreu’s new deal for $8M.

by matt92130 on Jun 21, 2009 6:10 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs

He'll be an Angel sooner or later

Could be very later though.

Now because he’s not up to par this year, his price should go down. Vlad isn’t going to be worth much. If he continues on the path he’s on, the Angels could probably afford both. But we gotta remember Lackey and Figgins, both of whom may be pretty expensive.

Should be an interesting offseason.

by TheAntiSox on Jun 21, 2009 9:42 AM PDT reply actions 0 recs

Definitely not this year...

He may be traded to someone by the deadline but he’ll do what Tex did, not resign during the year. I’m sure he wants to see his value. With Vlad’s $15M, Escobars $10M, lackey’s $10M, Figgins’ $5.75M, Olivers $3.6M (Assume he’s retiring), and Abreu’s $5M expiring after this year, that leaves us with almost $50M. Probably closer to $40M after the usual pay raises. I figure Vlad at 5-10, Figgins at 5-8, maybe Escy at 1-2 pending his effectiveness and health the rest of the year. Maybe Abreu at 5-10, and Lackey at 8-14 (Again, pending his performance the rest of the year). We’re over this years salary by $4M if we used the top of my projected salaries. The low end is $24M which leaves us $16M.

Bottom line, you are right… it should be an interesting off-season. Sorry, went off on a tangent thinking aloud.

by matt92130 on Jun 21, 2009 10:19 AM PDT up reply actions 0 recs

MLB trade rumors also mentions

Holliday as a possibility for the angels. Also mentioning that his WIFE liked so. Cal unlike Tex’s. But who knows with Borass as a client if it will go down.

First we had a Salmon and now we have a Trout, let's see the same results.

by angelskid2210 on Jun 21, 2009 10:22 AM PDT reply actions 0 recs

Yeah, saw that too

Intersting point you bring up… having Boras as his agent. I hate to bring up a terrrible memory, but does anyone think Boras will throw us a bone for what happened with Nick Adenhart? I mean.. actually, I don’t know what I mean, but hopefully, someone here does.

Quote from that article “Holliday is represented by Scott Boras, whose habit of long-playing negotiations clashes with the quick-strike style of Angels owner Arte Moreno. The Mark Teixeira sweepstakes, conducted by Boras, left Moreno with a bitter aftertaste.”

by matt92130 on Jun 21, 2009 10:37 AM PDT up reply actions 0 recs

i dont think he's throwing anyone a bone

but i know holliday stayed here in the offseason and has young sons i believe. If his wife enjoys the idea of raising them in orange county, it sure helps our cause.

if anything, the adenhart conference showed that theres no burnt bridges between the angels and boras and that negotiations on contracts are not the most important thing in the world.

RIP Nick Adenhart

by ihearhowie2.0 on Jun 21, 2009 10:53 AM PDT up reply actions 1 recs

(Sigh)

Thanks, those were the words I was looking for. Couldn’t come up with them myself.

by matt92130 on Jun 21, 2009 11:00 AM PDT up reply actions 0 recs

Boras throwing somebody a bone

is in the same realm as hell freezing over. He is a greedy bastard but he is only doing his job. Yes, money is not what it is all about in the wake of a tragedy. But in Borasses mind it is time to move on and get the most he can get for Holliday. I like the guy a less athletic version of Torrii hunter. He seems like a great clubhouse guy and I having him Torrii next to each other in the outfield would be pretty damn sweet

First we had a Salmon and now we have a Trout, let's see the same results.

by angelskid2210 on Jun 21, 2009 1:49 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs

I think Holliday would fit in well with the Angels Organization.

I think he would play better and with more commitment given a long term contract with any team. I think he would put more of himself into it and a good manager like Scioscia would expect more and get more out of him.

From things I’ve read at Athletics Nation, they complain that Holliday is not living up to their lofty expectations because he knows he is only a rental for a year and the A’s are such a lousy team that is hard to get excited to play for. Holliday has had a very slow start this season, but for some reason I think he would play better in Anaheim.

He and his family would probably fit in comfortably in Orange County with their strong religious background. That might be why his wife has a positive opinion of SoCal.

I am the Iron Man

by 44FAN on Jun 21, 2009 11:59 AM PDT reply actions 0 recs

The more I read about him and his family

Makes me feel like he is an “Angel kind of guy”. I like it 44FAN, bring him onboard!

by matt92130 on Jun 21, 2009 12:52 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs

I've read good things about him just as a guy as well

Its something that has made us all partial to Torii and you can never have too many “good” guys. I remember in spring training reading about he is so into baseball that he was going to local colleges and high schools to watch games and would talk to kids after games to tell them he was impressed. Stories like that are just fun to hear.

RIP Nick Adenhart

by ihearhowie2.0 on Jun 21, 2009 1:58 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs

as long as borass wants to fairly negotiate w/the halos...

and not just totally use our offer to raise his clients price w/out any intention of signing w/us, i can bear his shit-eating grin.

by thejd on Jun 21, 2009 1:42 PM PDT reply actions 0 recs

if Jason Bay is available at the end of the year

you go after him. period.

if he’s not, Holliday isn’t a bad fallback. at our stadium, he’d be worth .285/.375/.500 with 25 or so HRs. that’s respectable for a corner OF, if his price is right. if he’s signed for around $12MM/yr, i’d be just fine with that.

make Napoli your DH, and you’ve got a pretty strong middle of the order with Hunter, Napoli, Holliday, Rivera, Morales and possibly Wood.

Thank you, Nick Adenhart. You will always be remembered. #34

by howiestheman on Jun 21, 2009 3:40 PM PDT reply actions 0 recs

Agreed:

Bay is priority #1 if he’s available. Holliday #2.

by matt92130 on Jun 21, 2009 6:03 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs

I'd love to get Bay but I don't see the Sux letting him slip away.

As for Holliday, he’d be great at the right price. His production has basically been even with Juan Rivera but he’s making more money this year than Rivera is making for the next 3 years combined. He would be a great addition to the lineup but I wouldn’t be overly aggressive in pursuing him. If he asks for money that is not in our comfort zone, then hell with him.

"F it, let's pitch." - Ervin Santana

by Chzburger Jones on Jun 21, 2009 10:32 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs

cashish

If the Halos offer $1 more than then next team, then we get him, otherwise he will go to Pittsburgh, Washington, Houston, or anyone who pays.

by elricsi on Jun 21, 2009 4:59 PM PDT reply actions 0 recs

Bay or Holliday?

Either way, I see both men wanting to be compensated for their talents but regardless, if Washington pays $2M more than the Angels offer, he’ll come to the Angels because of our odds of winning. There is no winning going on so far in DC.

by matt92130 on Jun 21, 2009 6:05 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs

Probably just wishful thinking.

It’d be nice, though.

Let's win one for Nick

by moosemastr on Jun 21, 2009 8:41 PM PDT reply actions 0 recs

I don't want a Holliday in the sun

RIP Nick Adenhart

by stolenbases on Jun 23, 2009 9:17 AM PDT reply actions 0 recs

Holliday and Angel?

No.

One must think from the brain, not the heart. While we’d love to think our team scooped up a coveted free agent, a few realities must be admitted:

1) Holliday’s numbers with Oakland confirm the knock against him in the NL—that his stats with Colorado were inflated by playing in Coors. His home/road splits through 2008 were accurate, in the light of his performance in the AL.

2) His agent is Scott Boras. What happened with Nick Adenhart doesn’t make a nickel’s worth of difference in negotiations for Holliday or anyone else. For Boras, it is all business, and if he was your agent you’d want him to have that attitude, too. By the time Team Boras is through spinning reality in pitching Matt Holliday to the various teams, he will be said to be the next superstar in baseball.

He won’t be, of course. But Boras loves to drag things out and wring every last shekel from the deal, and that is the antithesis of how Arte works. I don’t think Arte dislikes Boras personally, but he clearly despises the way Boras chooses to handle negotiations. Arte reluctantly played the game for awhile in pursuit of Teixeira, and Holliday isn’t close to being the impact player Teixeira is.

Forget it. Holliday will be in a different uni in 2010, but not one with a halo.

by George Kaplan on Jun 23, 2009 5:58 PM PDT reply actions 1 recs

Seems like you have a vendetta against him...

His numbers are clearly down from the Colorado effect, no doubt about that. But, he’s currently on pace for a .273BA, 19HR, 92 RBI’s, 82 runs, 28 doubles, 78 walks, 19 SB’s, and .373 OBP. His fielding numbers are .993. These are solid numbers. Like I said above, playing in Oakland has it’s major disadvantages, i.e. the extra foul territory.

It’s true, Arte may not like the way Boras promotes his clients and toys with organizations, but the reality is, we could lose Vlad, Abreu, and Figgins in the same off-season. The offense needs to be made up somewhere and it’s not like we won’t have the money.

If you don’t want the Angels to get Holliday, come out and say it. Don’t give B.S. reasons. You’re citing “What if’s?”.

by matt92130 on Jun 23, 2009 7:34 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs

"Vendetta"?!?

Sorry if I insulted your boyfriend.

What I stated were simple facts: Holliday had huge differentials between his home and road numbers during his seasons in Colorado. It was suggested he would prove his value as a hitter when he played in Oakland, and sure enough, he has been underwhelming (and read this next part carefully) based upon the reputation as an elite power hitter he brought with him to Oakland. Only on the Angels would a guy with 19 HR be considered a “power hitter”.

And who on the Angel roster has more HR than Holliday? Torii Hunter, of course, but so do Kendry Morales, Juan Rivera and Mike Napoli. They have higher slugging percentages, too. Not only do Hunter, Morales and Rivera have more total bases than Holliday, but do does Chone Figgins (!). All of them (including Figgins) have more doubles. The only thing he has done appreciably better than several Angels is draw the walk—only Abreu and Figgins have more right now than Holliday, but a bunch of walks isn’t that high on the checklist of qualities for an elite power hitter. Nice, to be sure, but well below other metrics.

Someone suggested Holliday would want Hunter’s contract, but he’ll never play the OF like Hunter—my 80+ year old mom with one knee replaced and one artificial hip moves better laterally than Holliday—and he sure isn’t hitting like Hunter. Holliday does very well running in on the ball, but he’s screwed if it is hit over his head.

Additionally, your lone gunman theory concerning foul territory doesn’t stand up to scrutiny, since Holliday has a total of 9 outs this season due to caught foul balls. While that is roughly twice the rate of one of the Angel hitters, to be significant one must presume another turn at the plate would have had a productive outcome, and the way Holliday hasn’t been hitting, there is no reason to believe those 4.5 second chances would significantly change any of his numbers. I don’t think you want to be lecturing others about “what ifs”.

Finally, it is absolutely relevant that Moreno doesn’t like doing business the Boras way. Moreno’s trait is to make the best offer up front, give a expiration date on that offer to keep it from being shopped, and move on if that player doesn’t climb on board. Hunter took the offer and signed, while Teixeira and Boras decided to drag it out. We all remember Arte voicing his frustration at that time, and there is no reason to assume anything will work out any differently.

Again, all of this is measured against the idea that Holliday will be expecting “Hunter money”, and Boras is skilled about leveraging the highest possible offer for his clients. Holliday on an Abreu contract is a deal worth making, but Holliday on a Hunter contract is a waste of resources.

by George Kaplan on Jun 23, 2009 8:49 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs

While we can agree to disagree...

About what his production would be in lesser foul territory or whatever other circumstances, it’s all going to be opinion based so we can find a medium there. He is a steady contributer and has been productive since he joined the league, that you cannot argue.

I’m looking at signing Holliday due to the fact that Vlad and Abreu may not be back next year, and he’s the 2nd best outfield option in the upcoming free agent market, behind Boston’s Jason Bay. Both, Vlad and Abreu have average power at this point in their careers and still have the ability to hit around .300. Another think about signing Holliday is continuity as he’ll only be 29 when next season starts, and the possibility of signing him long term is more likely than Abreu or Vlad. Continuity is something I don’t over look. Vlad has missed significant time the past two years and I feel we should be thinking long term rather than being short sighted. So, the possibilty of having an outfield with Holliday in LF, Hunter in CF, and Rivera in RF for extended periods of time can only be positive from a defensive stand point.

As I stated earlier in this thread, I’d rather have Jason Bay. In MY order, Bay, Holliday, Abreu, Vlad. But I’m realistic and knowing Boston, they’ll lock Bay up at some point this year. I also stated that if he is asking for Hunters contract, we should walk away, but I’m completely comfortable with offering him $12M per on a 5 year deal. In all honesty, counting out Bay as I just don’t think he’ll be available, I’d like to sign Holliday and Abreu, and let Vlad walk.

As for Arte / Boras equation… you said there is “No reason to assume anything will work out any differently.” The thing with Tex was he wanted to be a Yankee and apparently, his wife was a major factor in his decision to leave SoCal and move to the Bronx. All things the same with Holliday, he loves SoCal from what I’ve read, including his family. There are positives there. Something we never really felt with Tex.

According to Buster Olney,"Holliday will be in position to command three-year offers worth just $30-35MM. There’s still a lot of baseball left, but let’s take a look at some of the reasons his value is so low:

• Holliday’s hitting just .275/.368/.440
• His slugging percentage this year is 200 points lower than his career mark at Coors Field.
• He’s attempted just five steals after stealing 28 bases last year.

But he still has a lot going for him:
• He has Scott Boras for an agent.
• He’s hitting .330/.459/.534 since May 4th, with five homers and all four of his steals.
• If he’s dealt to a contender and makes the playoffs he could boost his value by playing well in October."- MLBTradeRumors.com.’

My response to Buster Olney:
1. I’m fine with him hitting .275.
2. His slugging may be down from Coors field, and really, who’s wouldn’t be besides the obvious superstars like Pujols, Hamilton, Braun to name a few. His slugging would be 5th on our club behind Hunter, Rivera, Morales, and Napoli.
3. The Angels are a running team as Oakland is not, so the SB’s being down don’t worry me.
4. We’ve already addressed the Boras issue.
5. He could be still adjusting to the league change and seeing different pitchers.
6. He’s had some post season success in the past, something we could use.

by matt92130 on Jun 24, 2009 3:35 AM PDT up reply actions 0 recs

Boras

As for Arte / Boras equation… you said there is "No reason to assume anything will work out any differently." The thing with Tex was he wanted to be a Yankee and apparently, his wife was a major factor in his decision to leave SoCal and move to the Bronx. All things the same with Holliday, he loves SoCal from what I’ve read, including his family. There are positives there. Something we never really felt with Tex.

Not the point. It matters little that Holliday has a comfort in playing in Southern California. I think we all recall highly encouraging comments made by Teixeira about how much he liked playing for Scioscia, with the Angels, and in Anaheim. Somehow, he didn’t think to mention that his wife wanted for them to live close to family on the East Coast—it should surprise nobody that Boras coaches his clients in how to play this game, and Holliday’s statements about liking SoCal may simply be to set the table for inviting the Dodgers and Angels to the bidding.

The point is that Boras’ style of negotiation is to drag everything out as far as possible. Assume Holliday does want to play in Anaheim. Arte makes his best offer up front. Boras will continue to shop Holliday to other teams and use the Angel bid as a baseline—which is why Arte puts an expiration date on the offer. Say the Angels offer $33M/3 yrs. Boras then solicits other bids, and the Yankees counter with $38M/3 yrs or $50M/4 yrs. History has shown that Arte is loathe to match that offer, since Boras will simply ratchet that higher.

There is nothing wrong with what Boras is doing. It is simply contrary to how Moreno wishes to negotiate. The two men have opposite styles, and we all read in the Teixeira negotiations how Moreno felt the team was being used to drive up the bids from other teams. Ultimately, the Angels withdrew their bid and exited the process.

What I am saying is that there is no reason to believe that negotiations for Holliday will be any different. Unless Holliday does what no other Boras client has done, which is sign a deal without exposing himself to the bidding process, it is doubtful the Angels will wind up signing him. History is a pretty consistent guide on that.

by George Kaplan on Jun 24, 2009 4:55 AM PDT up reply actions 0 recs