2009 ASG Team Participation
Here is an interesting take on the 2009 ASG:
Taking all the pitches that each player experienced, either while on offense or defense (even if just waiting their turn to bat while sitting in the dugout), and aggregating those numbers by team, I can take the team totals and divide by the total pitches possible for all players. I end up with a table that looks something like the following (teams arranged to match the current standings in each division)... after the jump... what jumps out at YOU?
via i26.tinypic.com
This Fan-Post is authored by an independent fan. Tell us what you think and how you feel.
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Well...
that blows
Heaven has another Angel. RIP, Nick Adenhart. You'll be missed.
by HawaiiHaloFan35 on Jul 15, 2009 12:37 AM PDT reply actions
I'll tell you what jumps out at me.
Even the freakin’ Royals got more participation than us. We got hosed.
Let's win one for Nick
The AL East is well represented.
Charlie Manuel managed the NL team. And not a single Halo Chined bright tonight.
See what i did there?
I see what you did there
cuz I speak Chonese
by Rev Halofan on Jul 15, 2009 12:41 AM PDT up reply actions
I just checked Manuel's Wikipedia entry.
He’s 65 years old. Sorry, but he looks absolutely awful for his age. My 72-year-old grandpa looks healthier.
Let's win one for Nick
The way he claps his hands when he reaches base safely.
I am happy to introduce All Star Third Baseman, Chone Figgins.
Superb work, Stirrups
And as much as I agree that Joe Maddon is an ungrateful bastard, he and Charlie Manuel could not have shown such East Coast bias without the encouragement of MLB. I note that the Doyers were shafted as well; not as badly as the Angels, but then again, they have the best record in the Majors right now (inflated though that record is). If the ASG is all about the fans, then MLB doesn’t give a crap about its fans this side of the Sierras.
I try hard not to let this bother me, but this is just too much. Here is quantifiable statistical evidence of East Coast bias, a valid and newsworthy story, but I can guaranfriggintee that the story will not make it into the local sports sections.
Is it Thursday yet?
by rspencer on Jul 15, 2009 1:09 AM PDT reply actions 1 recs
You mean GuaranFIGGINtee
"F it, let's pitch." - Ervin Santana
by Chzburger Jones on Jul 15, 2009 4:54 AM PDT up reply actions
Figgy will have other chances, but this guy?
Let’s not be too hard on Maddon … if the best storyline in the all-star game gets put on the bench and it makes baseball look bad the next day, it must have been Bud Selig pulling the strings.
I’m the biggest of the East coast haters, but this must blow.
Also I see the Twins were over compensated on the playing time. And the B’Lays have the whole Great White North , including Santa Clause himself, to represent. So they got what they deserved.
Halladay should have had a
sign around his neck.
Lets be honest here...
I would love to believe that Maddon managed the game to win, because “It matters”, in terms of home field advantage. However, our guys, all two of them never get a shot at PT? Howard comes to bat, who just happens to be a lefty, and you have the AL saves leader, Brian Fuentes, who also happens to be a southpaw in the bully, but again, he doesn’t get the call. After 30 years of coaching in the Halos organization, you’d think Maddon would have a little loyalty, especially if it didn’t come at the Rays expense. Figgy, despite the naysayers, deserved to have at least 1 AB, and a chance on the field, he’s lead in most offensive categories, other than homers, is a catalyst, can swipe bags and is a class act. Maddon sucks. He is dead to me.
YOU DON'T KNOW THE POWER OF THE DARKSIDE.....
Stop the fucking madness
Did everyone lose sight of reality?
This is an exhibition game. It isn’t the World Series.
Maddon said at the before the game began that he was going with a 7-8-9 of Papelbon, Nathan and Rivera. Rivera has had the success he’s enjoyed through the years precisely because he could get lefties out and didn’t need to be lifted for a left-handed reliever.
Second, does nobody remember the 2002 game, when both managers ran out of pitchers in the 11th inning? This was a one-run game, and some here are seriously theorizing it would be a really smart idea to burn two relief pitchers in a single inning, just because a left-handed batter is coming to the plate? For real?
American culture was destroyed by AYSO—it isn’t necessary that everyone gets a chance to play. Had the game gone into extra innings, Fuentes (and Wakefield and whoever else remained among the pitchers) would have had an opportunity to play. Likewise, Figgins would have had an opportunity in extra innings, but not if he’s burned early as a pinch-runner or pinch-hitter.
Finally, I think I like Figgins as much as anyone here (except for those who have the irrational mancrush on him), but take a moment of honesty: If you were selecting your own team in some sort of expansion draft, and you could choose your position players from among the AL rosters currently in force, would you really select Figgins as your 3B, over Longoria, Young, Inge, Rodriguez? Beyond the fact that the balloting is largely fan-driven, the reality is that Figgins is a player out of position; he had grown defensively, but he isn’t the prototypical 3B.
For the love of God, stop the whining. If I want to read incessant crybaby posts from guys with the emotional makeup of a 12 year old girl, I can always click over to Lookout Landing. Figgins was there. He got to participate in the game festivities. He was recognized.
Now get over it.
by George Kaplan on Jul 15, 2009 5:02 AM PDT reply actions 6 recs
George
You’re a smart, sensible guy, and I typically agree with you, but lately it seems that all you’ve been doing is lecturing us on “getting over” something. Respectully, I say: get over it yourself. If anyone’s whining here, it’s you: no one forced you to endure the content of this page.
The ASG is less than an exhibition. It’s a farce. It’s not important to me either, really, but in one way or another I spend most every day of the year in part thinking about the Angels. Excuse me if I get a little fed up with Joe Maddon perpetuating the institutional MLB mistreatment of my team; there is little I detest more than disloyalty.
And equating Figgins and Fuentes with the last kids picked in an AYSO game is a damned poor argument. If I want to read weak thinking like that, I can always click over to Lookout Landing.
Fair enough
I appreciate the kind words and I don’t mind the criticism.
I think this site, more than any other on the global interwebs, represents the best of the Angel fans.
When I read utter nonsense slagging on Maddon, as if he had personally sabotaged the club’s players, it makes me more than a little upset.
First, we had the outburst regarding the replacement of Hunter, even though Maddon had nothing to do with selecting that replacement, and even though there is no law which says an Angel can be replaced only with another Angel (regardless of the position each plays).
Then there was the suggestion that he had personally snubbed Figgins in not picking him to replace Pedroia (and probably others as well).
Repeated over and over was the line “he’s dead to me”.
Joe Maddon was the Angels’ bench coach for over a decade. He functioned as the link between player and manager, was the father confessor to many and helped run the players to free the manager to manage. He literally provided inspriation to the players on a daily basis. As much as anyone else, he is responsible for making sure a clubhouse of overachievers stayed loose during 2002 and won a World Series, despite the fact that (on paper at least) it was not the most talented or fearsome team in the game that year.
To bash Maddon in that way is to ignore the enormous contribution he made to this team, as well as the love still felt between the players of past Angel teams and Maddon. It is absolutely ridiculous to assume that he would intentionally slight any Angel player simply because he was an Angel (or because he wasn’t a Ray).
You called me out for what I wrote, and I accept that. Likewise, I think I have the right to call out those here who would disrespect Maddon because he didn’t act in a manner 100% in concurrence with their own views. He’s a good manager, but he’s also a good man, and he made decisions in the best interest of the team he was slated to lead, and had even more decisions thrust upon him with no input whatsoever.
Lost in all this weeping is a simple question: Can a logical, strong case be made that Figgins is significantly better at 3B in 2009 than Inge, Longoria and Young (we’ll ignore Rodriguez for now), and thus MORE deserving of a spot on the roster? If Figgins is good but not so much better than those other three that his omission is a glaring oversight, then why not just appreciate his season and what he’s done for the team and leave it at that?
If Maddon orders James Shields to throw at Torii’s head, then I am more than happy to revisit my opinion of him. But the open weeping over Figgins’ alleged slight, along with the harsh view of Maddon, embarrasses this site.
by George Kaplan on Jul 15, 2009 10:35 AM PDT up reply actions 2 recs
agreed on all fronts...
Joe Maddon is not dead to me, and i think all angel players from the maddon days, figgins included, will agree. Another point not brought up is the win/win for me. While figgins was rightly recognized as an All-Star, he also got added rest like the rest of the halo players. I’d rather have a team of rested halos for the 2nd half then burned out All-Stars. And lastly, not to attack fellow posters or halos fans in general, but if your desire for figgy to play in the game was so great, vote for him and get on the fans who didnt vote him.
Meet me @ the budweiser patio
by BigBangRobbDawgg on Jul 15, 2009 12:00 PM PDT up reply actions
Props to both rspencer and George Kaplan
for demonstrating how to have a mature, intelligent discussion.
You are both great members of this community.
by WiHaloFan on Jul 15, 2009 12:55 PM PDT up reply actions 1 recs
Agreed
But it’s something called heat of the moment. With all the adversity we faced this year, we couldn’t even get a break and watch one of our All-Stars get their share of the glory. At least for me, that’s what upset me the most.
And as for a case for Figgins, at least I think he’s better than Young. :-P
The logical, strong, case for Figgy is NOT slotting him into one field position
and then comparing his value to somebody else having a hot year. No, the strong case for Figgy is that MLB fails to include a selection for All Star Utility Player each year. Given how strong of a season Figgy has had to this point, it would be hard to argue that anybody else in the AL is more deserving of that honor (AL Utility All Star) than he.
In fact, though, we are using the very best utility player as our every day 3B. Why? Because we need to, and because we can. Does that make him one of the best 3B in the AL? Not necessarily. In fact, this year, no. But Figgy can carry his offensive value to SS, 2B, LF, CF and RF and with a very, very respectable glove. That is huge. So as the roster kept getting filled out with one more replacement infield position specialist after another up to, and including, one player out of position, failure to recognize Figgy’s all-around All Star caliber season to date – along with his greater versatility – was wrong.
We don't have a Bullpen. We have a Cowpen. Before we get to call it a Bullpen these guys gotta grow a pair.
Sorry, but it doesn't work that way
The logical, strong, case for Figgy is NOT slotting him into one field position
If the Queen had balls, then she’d be King.
Why not make a category for “Best Left-handed Situational Reliever”? “Best Non-hitting Defensive Catcher”?
But there is no such category, and thus we have to accept a couple of facts: 1) Like Golden Glove voting, All-Star position winners aren’t always chosen because they’re the best that year, but because of overarching career heat, and 2) Figgins, by offensive and defensive metrics, is probably no more than 3rd best 3B in the AL in 2009.
The fans had a chance to vote him in as starting 3B. They did not. The fans had a second opportunity to vote him in as the “final player”. They did not. So if the game is, as suggested, all about pleasing the fans, then whether or not Figgins played would be irrelevant to them—they never wanted him in the game in the first place.
Winning an All Star berth isn’t too dissimilar to being chosen Prom King. It isn’t about quality, but about popularity. The game probably has gone downhill since the fan vote was returned to the selection process, and the ability of fans to vote an infinite number of times online for their pet players makes this less on the up-and-up than a Chicago election.
Maybe this offseason we’ll see Reagins trade Kendrick, sign Figgins to a free agent deal, and move him to the more appropriate spot of 2B, with Wood inheriting 3B. That would be a more logical alignment of offensive talent, certainly more traditional.
Then we can spend 2010 complaining that he is ignored behind Pedroia and Kinsler.
by George Kaplan on Jul 15, 2009 6:19 PM PDT up reply actions 1 recs
Well, my statement about Utility Player is neither new, nor novel.
It has been commented on by media analysts in the past, and still makes lots of sense. All it takes, ala the DH, is a rule change. Then it becomes the rule, not the queen’s balls.
Instead of sticking to the notion that Figgy needed to be voted in as the #1 or #2 3B in the AL to warrant selection is a total fallacy that flies in the face of all the evidence in front of us.
- For starters, the vast majority of All Star players are NOT voted in at all. They are selected.
- Those selected are, presumably, selected based on a combination of merit and the requirement to have each team represented. This season Figgy has merit.
- The selection process went back to the well REPEATEDLY in order to fill out infield slots. In the second-to-last round of replacement selections (the last being the one that tabbed Figgy), a 1B was chosen to fill the slot of a 2B. There is no reason to believe that Pena would ever actually be able to play at 2B. He was chosen out of position, and for a value other than his ability to play the slotted position. This logic could have applied equally to Figgy all along. More so, in fact, because Figgy can play any of 7 defensive positions while still maintaining his All Star level offensive value.
- As for the voting process, there certainly were fans that wanted Figgy to be an All Star. They were merely outvoted. Mob rule, not democracy. Losing the vote does not imply that fans rejected him, nor that there were not large numbers of fans who would have enjoyed seeing his talents at play. In fact, based on my first point, more people made a conscious proclamation to see Figgy in the ASG than they did for a boatload of other players that were fully accepted as All Stars on the roster. For example, Figgy outgained every pitcher on that roster in fan voting. Based on the rules that is rather disingenuous of me, for sure, but factual nonetheless.
- Finally, it is true that Figgy did not get sufficiently recognized to get into the ASG, either by the fans or by the team Manager. So why is that? How much of that is due to a lack of publicity, a lack of media coverage? While Figgy is hitting gappers for triples, flying around the basepaths, stealing bases, making spectacular plays at thrid, and showing off his great arm on putouts to first base, the Eastern media giants sleep. Maybe next year, after Figgy goes FA, he signs with an East Coast team and gets proper publicity. He then pulls vastly supoerior voting numbers in the ASG voting for 2010 and beats out Wood for a reserve 3B slot (it is presumed that ARod will sweep that spot going forward). We can then all sit around and bitch that Figgy MADE the team and Wood did NOT, and then be forced to watch Figgy enter the game in the 5th inning of the 2010 ASG being played in our home stadium in Anaheim. Wearing a Baltimore Orioles jersey.
And won’t that really suck the queen’s balls?
We don't have a Bullpen. We have a Cowpen. Before we get to call it a Bullpen these guys gotta grow a pair.
by Stirrups on Jul 16, 2009 12:49 AM PDT up reply actions 1 recs
Do you have a chiropractor on speed dial?
- As for the voting process, there certainly were fans that wanted Figgy to be an All Star. They were merely outvoted. Mob rule, not democracy. Losing the vote does not imply that fans rejected him, nor that there were not large numbers of fans who would have enjoyed seeing his talents at play. In fact, based on my first point, more people made a conscious proclamation to see Figgy in the ASG than they did for a boatload of other players that were fully accepted as All Stars on the roster. For example, Figgy outgained every pitcher on that roster in fan voting. Based on the rules that is rather disingenuous of me, for sure, but factual nonetheless.
I imagine you can pull something painfully attempting to bend logic like the above. Since Figgins received more votes than did the pitchers (who don’t require any), then he is deserving?
Please.
Let’s deal with two fundamental truths of the All Star game.
1) It is not a meritocracy. How many years has Derek Jeter been acknowledged as the best SS in the AL, despite many seasons when other SS were having superior first halves? As stated before, it is little more than a popularity contest, with the system not just allowing but endorsing ballot-box stuffing. In the Final Man vote, one could vote as many times for Figgins as their fingers would allow.
How else do you explain Josh Hamilton getting the starting nod over Torii Hunter, when one objectively compares the 2009 seasons of each?
Which leads me to…
2) Angel fans don’t vote. They never have. Some here might have worn their fingers to bloody stubs voting online, but for a team with consistently one of the highest attendance levels in all of MLB, in the midst of the second-largest metro area in the entire United States, it is rare than any Angel player wins a starting bid. Why?
Because Angel fans apparently can’t be bothered to vote. Maybe because there are too many distractions in SoCal, maybe because it is seen as pedestrian and uncool, but Angel fans have NEVER voted in numbers comparable to their legion.
Simple statement of fact: If Angel fans voted as vigorously as those of other teams, Chone Figgins beats Longoria for 3B, and Hunter wins in CF. Figgins wins, not because he’s having a better season than Longoria (because he isn’t), but because more people voted for him.
To paraphrase Willy the Shakes, the fault, dear Stirrups, lies not in the AL, but in ourselves.
by George Kaplan on Jul 16, 2009 6:28 AM PDT up reply actions
Well,
concerning the voting by Angels fans, I doubt that you have the demographics to support your statements. It cannot be a statement of fact, simple or otherwise. I do not know of any such published data. I cannot believe that it is even possible since it was not mandatory that a voter define themselves as a fan of any team when placing their vote. So with Internet voting, we have no way of knowing that the problem behind low voting for Figgy is low voting by Halo fans.
For all we know (to use one possible variation), Figgy may have the single highest percentage of votes from fans of his own team, but zero support from the fans of all the other teams. Meanwhile, perhaps, 40% of fans for all the other teams voted for Longoria. Since there are so many other teams, the final tally would end up similarly skewed towards Longoria and away from Figgy. There are lots of ways to make those results work out as they did without singling out and castigating Halo fans. It does look bad, but I want to see more underlying data before I pursue more underlying reasons.
Meanwhile, It is highly possible that Figgy actually received more total votes in the 2009 ASG voting process than Pujols. The Sprint Final Vote was huge, and the news out of MLB.com was that Figgy was closing fast at the end. I cannot find any final published number for the votes Figgy got, but it may have approached 8 figures when all was said and done.
So, yes, this concludes the beauty pageant phase of the ASG selection process.
So here we have a guy who may have had disproportionately high support from his own fans and who, due to the vagaries of the voting process, probably ended up among the top 6 or 7 vote getters overall. But, again due to those same vagaries of the same process, Figgy did not get voted in. He was not among the lucky 9.
Now, from this point on out, all subsequent responsibility for Figgy making the team or not falls to Maddon and MLB front office folk. Something like 21 other players were selected before Figgy got named. And one of those guys named ahead of him was named to fill a field position that he does not even play. If one player can be named out of position, it follows that Figgy was not locked in as 3B either. So sticking to the worry about Figgy only getting in as 3B candidate does not hold water. Besides, of the two (Figgy and Pena), Figgy is actually the one who CAN play 2B. And SS. And LF. And CF. And RF. Maddon even came right out and stated that Pena was chosen for his bat, not because he was a 2B. Maddon could just as easily made the call to select Figgy for his amazing versatility, not because he was 3B.
Finally, although it can be said that the selection process is not a true meritocracy, it cannot be said that it is without any merit at all. The absolute winner may not be the absolute best, but will uniformly be among the best and definitely not among the worst. There is always some merit behind the winning vote getter.
But, at the end of the day none of this back and forth is gonna change anything. It is what it was.
We don't have a Bullpen. We have a Cowpen. Before we get to call it a Bullpen these guys gotta grow a pair.
by Stirrups on Jul 16, 2009 9:26 PM PDT up reply actions 1 recs
Attendance
From ESPN, the season to date attendance figures:
Angels 45 home games Total 1,832,941 Average 40,732
Rangers 44 home games Total 1,201,747 Average 27,312
Those ballots are handed out at every home game, plus the internet voting is widely publicized.
So why does Josh Hamilton get more votes for CF than Torii Hunter, whose highlight-reel catches have been a staple of Baseball Tonight and MLB Tonight for the last three months?
by George Kaplan on Jul 18, 2009 8:00 AM PDT up reply actions
Well...
Vlad Guerrero received 916,404 votes. How do you think that happened? No Halo fan capable of rational thought would have voted for him. We, of all fans, have been well aware that the guy had missed a huge amount of the first half of the season and, when he did come back, was mediocre at best. Even if Halo fans were voting, they would rarely be voting for him. So how did he get nearly 1 vote for every two halo fans through the turnstiles?
Answer: because the votes came from fans beyond the Halo fan base. Why would thy do that? Because they had little faith in their own guys, and Vlad has a huge national reputation, so they penciled in Vlad instead. Nothing to do with local turnstiles. Vlad got votes from fans outside of Angels Stadium.
Worse: Abreu received 1,204,786 votes. How the hell did THAT happen? Either the Halo fans ignored their own eyes and voted as homers in overwhelming numbers (meaning that Halo fans voted in overwhelming numbers, which defeats your argument), or Bobby picked up huge numbers of votes from beyond the Halosphere strictly due to reputation and nothing to do with a need to be on ESPN (which, again, defeats your argument).
The point here is that votes come from beyond the local turnstile audience and how much this happens is unknown and, in the current system, unknowable. We do not have the demographics. We cannot make declarative statements or impose assumptions as absolute.
Other things to consider: I have not been handed an ASG voting card when entering the stadium since the 70’s. Nor have I seen anyone handing them out to other fans. Nor I have seen unused voting cards laying around after a game. Just because the Halos had 1,832,941 paid seats prior to the ASG, that does not mean that we had 1,832,941 chances to vote that we intentonally neglected.Turnstiles can have an impact, but they are not THE metric.
Further, we can certainly infer a meaningful fact: since players such as Hamilton and Hunter received more votes that their teams experienced in attendance, the MAJORITY of their votes came from beyond the turnstiles. Turnstiles can have an impact, but they are not THE metric.
Directly to your question: Hamilton has a huge national reputation. He had a huge showing at last year’s Home Run Derby, is a famous story, and an incumbent All Star. He doesn’t need ESPN to promote him all over again in 2009.
But, Hunter on ESPN? Uh, a huge percentage of his games finish long after Midwestern and Eastern voters have gone to bed. Those ESPN highlights you are watching are landing on dark TV’s all across the nation. And that presumes that they really are staples for the baseball fan, as you claim.
We don't have a Bullpen. We have a Cowpen. Before we get to call it a Bullpen these guys gotta grow a pair.
Understood, but hardly the point
Turnstiles are highly relevant in one key area: As a measure of the active fan base. I’m an Angel fan who can’t attend home games, so I completely understand the idea of fans outside of the home area voting via the internet.
But if the Angel attendance shows a native advantage of 50% more fans per game than the Rangers, it should follow that those same engaged fans, voting in comparable fervor, would provide the Angel a distinct advantage in votes before becoming involved in the more expansive national vote totals.
Of course, we can parse this till the cows come home—the attendance figures don’t necessarily indicate 40,000 or 27,000 different fans per game for those teams, nor does it take into account season ticket holders who sell their seats for individual games via Stub Hub or some other means and thus bring in different fans for those same seats. But what happens in one stadium most likely happens in the other, so the same ratios would figure to apply.
I lack Arbitron data at hand for the radio numbers for the Ranger and Angel radio networks and the numbers from Fox Sports for the telecasts, but given the disparity in the sizes of the two metro areas, the Angels would figure to have an advantage in listening and viewing audiences. Even as we’ve seen that the numbers for the Angel TV games are off, the much larger metro area means that each share point is worth far more homes than in the DFW market. We know that the CSA for the LA Metro area is literally double that of DFW. A fan who is motivated to turn on the radio or TV for the game should be one who is motivated to vote for his team’s players.
All this adds up to a potential statistical advantage that an Angel player would enjoy, something which would have to be overcome by an extended national vote—if the Angels fans took advantage of it.
I have acknowledged the fact that national voting carries certain prejudices—Jeter has been the starting SS in just about all of the games (except for seasons with injury), regardless of the seasons being posted by other AL SS. And I don’t think Brandon Inge was undeserving of being voted in as Final Man.
But do we really think that Figgins shouldn’t have won that vote, given what should be a statistical advantage of a SoCal fanbase?
Unless, of course, those fans weren’t participating in proportionate numbers.
And under any circumstances, how would this point to the claim that Angel players are screwed over by MLB? If Figgins had two chances to win a spot on the roster and lost both times, is that a simple lack of votes or evidence of some darker conspiracy?
by George Kaplan on Jul 19, 2009 5:47 AM PDT up reply actions
I wonder how many of the votes come from agents or family members trying to “promote” their player?
I love this team.
by Downing Rules on Jul 21, 2009 12:05 PM PDT up reply actions
No more than on American Idol
Oh, wait…I guess that proves your point, huh?
by George Kaplan on Jul 21, 2009 2:02 PM PDT up reply actions
You guys still back here chatting about all this??
First of all, I ain’t claiming that there is any conspiracy against Figgins. I am claiming unprofessional neglect on the part of the players and the manager and the league front office. Figgy didn’t get many votes in the open primary. I think national name recognition and some bias here speak for all that. Figgy had an amazing first half as an all around player, but he will never vault over ARod, Longoria, and whomever plays 3B for Boston (unless that ends up becoming Figgy next year!)
But let’s look at that 3B balloting a bit. Figgy pulled better than 6 other 3B’s. We don’t have the data, but it is possible that the fans for the Orioles, White Sox, Royals, indians, Mariners and A’s all cast 90% of their 3B ballots for the either ARod, Longoria or Lowell. 90% of 6,150,629 pre-ASG turnstile ballots would be 5,535,566 votes split among those top 3 and added to their local fan base votes. And if those same 3 got just 10% of all the votes from NL pre-ASG turnstile ballots, that would be another 2,193,398 votes. That’s a total of 7,728,964 they could draw from turnstile ballots based on name recognition and bias alone. And that does not count their local fan attendance opportunities. Meanwhile, the Halos had a max voting opportunity for pre-ASG turnstile ballots of only 1,832,941. Even if the Halos had figured out a way to mandate that every single paid attendee file a vote on behalf of Figgy, he needed a huge amount of support from non-attendees to pull it out.
We can play this same math game for radio listeners, for television audiences, and for Internet fans. In every single case we can calculate a theoretical result that would support the possibility that Figgy enjoyed a huge amount of support from his own fan base, but that support paled against the support that the other top vote getters pulled from beyond their own bases. This is why I reject the claim that the whole thing must lie at the feet of Halo fans. No, this is not necessarily so. And because we do not have demographics, we cannot castigate Halo fans.
And, for the record, I could similar thought experiments for the Hunter-Hamilton conjecture. I reject the claim that Hunter has been some kind of web-gem staple on TV. First, I would be hard pressed to believe that he had more than 20 such moments out of nearly 90 games and hundreds of plays. Second, most of his moments would have reached the TV play loops so late that only West Coast and Hawaii viewers would have seen them. Mid-West and Eastern viewers would have long since gone to bed.
So that brings us to the Hamilton Q factor. The guy was THE story of last year’s ASG. He had that whole rags to riches thing going on that the media just drooled over. He had that unbelievable round in the Home Run Derby. His was a large story for a greater part of the season. He went into this year’s balloting as an AS incumbant. I would posit that I could do the same math for Hunter votes around baseballdom that I did for Figgy and come up with a way that mimics the actual results. And, again, the Halo fans would be innocent of your criminal accusations.
But, moving back to Figgy. Once The Final Vote was done, not only did Figgy have an incredible first half on the field, but he ended up 3rd in The Final Vote. He probably ended up receiving more overall votes for ASG consideration than every other major league baseball player but 5. What he did on the field made him worthy of being an AS. What he did at the ballot box made him worthy of replacement consideration. What he did at the ballot box made him worthy of performing in the game on behalf of his supporters. What he brings to the game in terms of versatility made him worthy of getting onto the field for the sheer value of helping the AL win the game in regulation.
But he got in only as the final option. He got in only at the last minute and denied the full AS experience. He got in only because of a hangnail or somethingorother. And his only chance to actually play, his only chance to perform on behalf of all those who did vote for him, was pre-ordained to be dependent on the rare chance of a tie game sometime after the 9th inning. And that’s a shame.
We don't have a Bullpen. We have a Cowpen. Before we get to call it a Bullpen these guys gotta grow a pair.
The horse is still dead
What you saw was a muscle twitch from a nerve impulse firing post mortem.
by George Kaplan on Jul 23, 2009 5:38 AM PDT up reply actions
There is a very hilarious comment issued in court
by the judge overseeing the Microsoft anti-trust trial, concerning what lawyers do when they come across a dead horse. You should look it up. Very appropriate for some threads here at HH.
We don't have a Bullpen. We have a Cowpen. Before we get to call it a Bullpen these guys gotta grow a pair.
To me,
I wouldn’t say I was as mad at Maddon as I was bummed/mad I didn’t get to see Figgins play.
Great comment, though.
34 - N.J.A - R.I.P
PLAY FIGGINS ALREADY!!!!!!!!!!!.....or not
by Figgi4life on Jul 15, 2009 10:36 PM PDT via mobile up reply actions
Thanks most sincerely, George
for taking my comments as they were intended, and looking past my asperity. You have no idea how relieved I am! I felt bad all day after posting that, because I felt that I had fragged one of my favorite commenters on this site.
I am sensible of all Joe Maddon gave to the Angels during his long tenure, but in fact this was what in large part has fed my extreme disappointment at his handling of Figgy. It all had the distinct odor of disloyalty. After all, the Angels had given a lot to Joe, too. After considering the many reasoned comments on this subject from you and others on this thread, however, I will humbly relent so far as to say that I now agree that this was not a personal snub. I’ll give Joe the benefit of the doubt on that.
Still, I am angered at the whole spectacle of making Figgy jump through so many hoops only to have him ride the pine for nine (as Rex puts it). And please understand this is not weeping nor whining. As I said, I don’t really care about the ASG; what I care about is the World Series. But what I care the most about is the Angels. And while I personally prefer to concentrate on the game between the lines, the Angels as a business have to take a wider view, They have to worry about the popular perception of the team. MLB is supposed to be a full partner in promoting the Angels to the nationwide audience that watches the ASG.
And there is a lot there worth promoting. Not only do the Angels consistently draw one of the highest attendance figures of any team while providing what has recently been cited as the best experience in all of professional sports, but they have managed to attain one of the best records in baseball despite having to endure an arguably unprecedented run of disasters.
But when the entire game passes without the AL feeling the need to deploy even one Angel for even a lousy half-inning, what it says to a large national audience is this: the Angels are irrelevant to baseball. I can easily disregard the insult delivered to me as a devoted fan, but I can’t disregard the harm delivered to a business the welfare of which I care about deeply. I can’t help but be greatly angered by this, because anything that hinders the Angels’ ability to earn income hinders its long-term ability to compete.
by rspencer on Jul 16, 2009 12:47 AM PDT up reply actions 2 recs
We're very cool
I don’t think many folks recall the 2002 game in Milwaukee, when both managers (Torre for the AL and Brenly for the NL) trotted out their players like show ponies, giving everyone exposure in the game…until it went to the 14th inning and both teams were out of pitchers and position players.
Remember, no GM wants his pitcher abused in the ASG, working 3-4 innings and winding up used up for the games which count. Over those 14 innings, both managers had burned though their pitching rosters.
That left MLB in the embarrassing spectacle of having the managers conferring with Bud Selig on the sidelines, wondering if they should end the game as a tie, or allow guys who had pitched (and hit) earlier in the game back into the game to restock the player pools.
I can’t prove it, of course, but I think since that game the rule from the Commissioner’s office is that, unless it is a blowout, the game is supposed to be managed as one which might go into extra innings.
So if you’re Maddon, do you keep a guy like Figgins—who only got to the park a matter of an hour or two before game time as it was—in reserve, in case a scenario emerges when a slower player hits a double and Figgins goes into the game to run for him, creating a better chance of a game-tying or -winning run?
I’d think so.
All speculation on my part (I happily own up to that), but it makes absolute sense that Maddon wouldn’t have all players in the game within 9 innings of a one-run game.
But to your earlier point: You’re absolutely correct that the Angels have one of the highest rates of attendance in all of baseball. So why is Josh Hamilton getting the start over Torii Hunter? Where are all these Angel fans voting for Hunter? Why is it Angel players historically get into the game only as manager picks (Vlad to the contrary)?
Angel fans don’t vote in number representative of their total. I don’t know why that is, but it has been true for decades. If Angel fans bothered to participate in the way other teams’ fans do, Figgins wins the starting berth at 3B and this entire conversation you and I have had is rendered moot.
by George Kaplan on Jul 16, 2009 9:57 AM PDT up reply actions
Please correct me if I'm wrong
Isn’t there a rule that says the pitchers can’t go more that 2 innings, and I’m thinking that is for the starters.
Was searching hard for the rules to the All Star Game and couldn’t find them anywhere.
I'm not aware of any rules
But just about any GM would throw a rod if his player went 3 or more.
by George Kaplan on Jul 16, 2009 7:00 PM PDT up reply actions
I can't argue with any of your points here
except to say that unless you have some internal numbers re the ASG voting that I don’t know about, then you are relying too heavily on the argument that Angel fans are not voting enough to get their players in. I’m not saying you’re wrong, merely that I don’t have enough information to say that you are right.
I might just as easily respond that no players become starters on the strength of their team’s fans alone, that only players with fame that transcends one team’s fan base get enough votes to win. After all we got Vlad in; is that because for this one player Angel fans got motivated? I don’t think so; I think it was because he has fans all over baseball because he is one of the players MLB has marketed heavily.
Chances are your point about Angel fans and ASG voting is quite valid, but it nonetheless does not adequately answer my point about marketing and promotion. Every fan of the MLB has been told in minute details about Joba Chamberlain’s digestive health, but they have been told very little about Chone Figgins.
I'd like to revise and extend my remarks
Replace last sentence, second paragraph in the above with the following: “I don’t think so; I think it was because fans of baseball all over the country are aware of his excellence because he is one of the players MLB has marked heavily.”
Vlad has been an All-Star starter, first and foremost, because he has deserved the honor; other Angels meriting such an honor have not been voted in, I believe, because they have not gotten the nationwide exposure necessary to get sufficient votes.
Here is a clue
From the story in today’s LA Times, concerning Fuentes’ non-appearance:
Fuentes, the Angels’ closer, did not pitch in the game. He said he was told in an American League team meeting Monday that he would pitch the sixth inning, and he shared that news with family, friends and Angels officials in St. Louis.
On Tuesday, two hours before game time, Fuentes said AL pitching coach Jim Hickey told him that there had been a “misunderstanding” and that AL Manager Joe Maddon had not been aware that the commissioner’s office wanted the starting pitchers to work two innings.
That left one fewer inning for the relievers and that left Fuentes out.
by George Kaplan on Jul 17, 2009 4:38 AM PDT up reply actions
And this advances your argument *how?*
A pitcher needed to be bumped, so the Angels pitcher was chosen for that distinction. Furthermore, the decision was made by the Commissioner’s Office.
You have far more faith in the Commissioner’s Office than experience and common sense allow me to have. Either they are completely tone-deaf or they are playing favorites.
Quick! What do the following men have in common?
Andrew Bailey
Josh Beckett
Brian Fuentes
Justin Verlander
Tim Wakefield
by George Kaplan on Jul 18, 2009 8:22 AM PDT up reply actions
You're personalizing an action which wasn't personal
Maddon stated he intended to have Fuentes pitch the 6th, and his 7-8-9 was going to be Papelbon, Nathan and Rivera. That didn’t happen.
When that plan was altered by MLB, Fuentes would have pitched the 9th in a tie game, saving Rivera as closer. That didn’t happen.
There were plenty of pitchers who didn’t see action. As Bill Shaikin wrote in the LA Times:
Here’s the thing: Baseball is so spooked by the possibility of a tie, and so wedded to the television-inspired concept that the game must deliver a winner, that a lot of All-Stars become nothing more than insurance for extra innings — of an exhibition game.
Last year’s All-Star Game lasted 15 innings, with both teams exhausting their supply of pitchers. But we can’t have a tie, so MLB increased the roster for each league to 33 players, including 13 pitchers. Never mind that an All-Star Game never has lasted more than 15 innings.
And, because the game counts for something, MLB wants the starting pitcher to work at least two innings.
Check the box score for the result: 16 pitchers were used, so 10 were not. That’s far beyond the idea of saving a pitcher or two for extra innings, and that’s not going to help persuade pitchers to give up their break to sit in the All-Star bullpen.
Too many pitchers. It doesn’t get more plain than that. This wasn’t a deliberate slight aimed at Fuentes or the Angels. It is simply that MLB has imposed guidelines upon the selection of the teams and the implementation of the players in the game which left no room for Fuentes in a 9 inning game.
Besides, if the League was “playing favorites”, why was Felix Hernandez pitching while Beckett sat?
by George Kaplan on Jul 18, 2009 6:25 PM PDT up reply actions
I appreciate your willingness to continue the discussion
But you keep revisiting settled points while studiously avoiding others. For one thing, I relented on Joe a while back.
My basic point was that I suspected that strings were being pulled behind the scenes that, whatever the motivation, affected the Angels adversely. Fuentes confirmed this, albeit from an angle I didn’t foresee. Obviously Selig was concerned with certain things, and conspicuously absent from these concerns was seeing that at least one Angel got in, despite their current standing in MLB. Certainly there were Red Sox who didn’t get in, but the fact is that they were even so over-represented among the teams who saw action. I notice that so were the Rangers; in fact, they constituted the greatest percentage of players seeing action of all the AL teams. Is it a coincidence that MLB now has a financial interest in that team?
Clearly MLB is playing favorites. The Angels are not the only team affected adversely by this, but they (and the Dodgers, I must say) are the most conspicuous of these. This angers me, and I’m wondering how it makes you feel.
I also am curious to hear your thoughts upon my (and Stirrups’) questioning of your analysis of the ASG voting.
It doesn't anger me in the slightest
I do feel badly for Fuentes, because he was given assurances earlier which were later countermanded. Figgins, on the other hand, I am sure was just happy to have arrived in time for the game.
But we have shown demonstrably that this was too many pitchers and not enough innings. And in a tie or one-run game, are you saying unequivocally that you’d put Fuentes on the mound for 7, 8 or 9 before using Papelbon, Nathan or Rivera?
Not because we’re subscribing to some AYSO ethic that everyone gets to play/every team gets a player in the game, but because we’re saying that with the game on the line in the 7th, 8th or 9th inning, you feel Fuentes would be the superior choice over any of the other three?
As to the Rangers being favored because of baseball having invested in the team—Cruz was added by the players, not the league or fans, but he never got in the game. Michael Young was selected by the players. And then of course, there were the Ranger pitchers on the squad (insert pause for laugh here). There were three Rangers on that team.Two started, but one because of injury. Two were chosen by their peers, not the fans or management. Hard to say MLB was pulling any strings on that one.
by George Kaplan on Jul 19, 2009 6:13 AM PDT up reply actions
Actually, because of the "it's for the fans" factor, the ASG is exactly like AYSO.
It’s all for the benefit and enjoyment of the fans and all fans should get to enjoy the game. Unless you happen to be a fan from, say, Chicago. Then, no, the 2009 ASG is not for you. Not so much.
We don't have a Bullpen. We have a Cowpen. Before we get to call it a Bullpen these guys gotta grow a pair.
Nice job, George.
And I’m referring to all of your posts in this thread. It’s nice to see someone speak logically on the subject. The “Joe is dead to me” comments were more than just a little ridiculous. It’s refreshing to know that someone has the balls to hold an unpopular opinion, and even more so, the eloquence of expressing it.
Apologies in advance.
We have this!
If you ask me, the All-Star introductions are the coolest part of the game. I love to watch the Angels selected tip their caps, but after that the game itself doesn’t really bother me.
Figgins said he was just happy to be there, and while it would have been nice for him to play after all he went through to get there, it was just nice to see him on that line. Well done, Desmond, you deserved it.

Don't call me Desmond
by highlandhalo on Jul 15, 2009 6:36 AM PDT reply actions 3 recs
Angel caps in St Louis
Andy Richter (Conan O’Brien show) wore an Angel cap and had the logo on his jersey in the celebrity softball game on Sunday in St Louis.
He hit a home run. He also clanked a couple of throws at 1B, but he was representing.
by George Kaplan on Jul 15, 2009 7:36 AM PDT up reply actions
i think he clanked on purpose
because both the grounders were hit by Jenna Fischer from The Office. smart man.
His behind-the-scenes video can be found here
7/13/09 Tonight Show with Conan O’Brien.
Drag the timeline to the 15:00 mark and enjoy.
by George Kaplan on Jul 15, 2009 6:29 PM PDT up reply actions
He didnt get his chance to do the backflip!
How can you not be mad??
Please get rid of Kendrick and Aybar. And Santana. R.I.P. Nick Adenhart, Marquis Cooper, Steve McNair
I'm just glad he didn't get hurt doing the backflip!
I have a feeling Desmond is going to come out really firing after the break. (Sorry for my obvious mancrush on Desmond, but most HHers know he’s been my favourite Angel for many, many years).
Don't call me Desmond
by highlandhalo on Jul 15, 2009 7:09 AM PDT up reply actions
me too
i have a feeling he’s going to have a big 2nd half too
Please get rid of Kendrick and Aybar. And Santana. R.I.P. Nick Adenhart, Marquis Cooper, Steve McNair
by JoseGuillenSux on Jul 15, 2009 5:55 PM PDT up reply actions
That sucks
I can not believe that Maddon did not put Figgins or Fuentes in. I hope Scioscia gives Maddon an earfull. Fuentes should have gotten the save!!!! Maybe he put Rivera in so the Yankees would take it easy on the Rays cause they suck.
by Lower View MVP Rocks on Jul 15, 2009 7:24 AM PDT via mobile reply actions
I'm annoyed he didn't play in the ASG
but I’m just happy he’s on our team. Go Halos!
Aybar is a nowhere man, Sitting in his Nowhere Land, Making all his nowhere plans for nobody.
by princeton11loveshalos on Jul 15, 2009 9:36 AM PDT reply actions
Ah well, at least he got the ASG selection
Now he has that coveted title “All-Star Chone Figgins.” Now go and win a gold glove for me, Chone!
come on
Come on george out of the list you named i would take Longoria then Figgins.A-rod ? Inge One needs steroids to hit homers and the other cant hit a home run in the home run derby. Figgy is faster than both of them and is a far better defender. Halos got hosed.
Figgins over Inge?
Really? Then I’d be happy to play your team.
by George Kaplan on Jul 15, 2009 11:56 AM PDT up reply actions
Speaking of which (hate to butt in too)
In The Show Figgins is ALWAYS a better choice than Inge.
He had 3 straight All-Star starts for me, and had 3 straight .300 average season and even winning 2 straight gold gloves. Inge was lost in some other team’s mediocrity. :)
You look at their stats since the start of May
or since the start of June, or since the start of July and Figgy has done considerably better than Inge even w/o the steals factored in. Inge had a great April and Figgy had a relatively poor one, but since then Figgy > Inge.
Personally I’d go with the hot hand, Inge was only even up for consideration for the ASG because of what he did in April.
Inge
This is a guy who was a 3B, then had his position taken away when MigCab was signed (and was moved to the OF), who even became a catcher just to contribute to his team. He’s back at 3B after a two year hiatus and playing as if he never left.
Some guys see their hitting disappear when adjusting to a new post (especially if there are errors or lapses in concentration), but Inge still has 21 HR/58 RBI for the season with an OPS of .876. He is perhaps the single biggest offensive reason why the Tigers are in first, especially with Ordonez completely MIA at the plate. His .287BA/.908 OPS In June was a good indication he wasn’t just an April phenomenon.
Offensively, his numbers are exactly what one would be seeking in a 3B slot. Defensively, he is keeping his team in the game with solid D. He was very deserving of his nod for the game.
by George Kaplan on Jul 15, 2009 2:44 PM PDT up reply actions
I don't dislike Inge, I mean they were both deserving All-Stars IMO.
I was just showing that over the last 2 and a half months, which is a decent amount of time that Figgy and not Inge has been the better player.
You made it sound at least to me, that in your opinion Inge is clearly the superior player, I was just trying to show you it is a lot closer than it appeared you thought it was and that yes someone can have a rational opinion that Figgy is better w/o being an Angels homer.
Joe did the best for the team to win the game. I am sure Figgins and Fuentes are better off having attended the event and gaining the recognition of the fans and their peers. Not playing, while a disappointment, is not the end of the world. They were still All Stars and still represented our awesome team.
What stands out to me in the chart above … The AL East got a lot of love and the Red Sox finished FOURTH on that list.
Tangent: How ‘bout Frankie’s showing? He looked pretty darn good last night.
I love this team.
I almost didn't recognize Frankie when they showed him before the game.
He’s put on a little weight, not much, but it changed the shape of his face a bit.
.... as sexy as socks on a rooster.
I'm happy Nelson Cruz went to the HR Derby finals
I hope he wore himself out the way Vlad did two years ago. That might slow down the Ranger offense for a few weeks.
And I'm glad Josh Hamilton semi-embarassed himself last night
By disappearing through a wormhole in the 1st (seriously, watch the replays, it looks like that), and botching a throw to 3B.
Does anyone remember who actually won the HR derby last year?
Because after it was over all of the media rushed to interview Josh.
.... as sexy as socks on a rooster.
*sigh*
At least now, during and after his career, anytime he is introduced, he will be
“All-Star thirdbaseman Chone Figgins”
Thinking of that makes me smile. :)
34 - N.J.A - R.I.P
PLAY FIGGINS ALREADY!!!!!!!!!!!.....or not
by Figgi4life on Jul 15, 2009 10:52 PM PDT via mobile reply actions
stop criticizing the people
statements like “joe maddon is dead to me” and the like are just hyperbole’s and theres no reason to rush so quick to defend them to to criticize the people who say them
of course they dont actually mean them, its just a way to express frustration
and to the debate between figgy, young, and inge imo its a futile argument because ur comparing 3 different players with 3 different skill sets
they all have played different positions and all are very versatile players, but figgins is a leadoff hitter, his goal is to get on base and score runs and put pressure on pitchers (which his base stealing does very well)
young is a hybrid, a good mix of power and speed which i have to give props to the rangers for having him hit 2nd becuz i think thats where he belongs
inge is a power hitter and is a great middle of the lineup guy
compare all the stats u want but ill tell u that a leadoff hitter should lead obp, sb, and runs scored
while a middle of the lineup guy should lead hr, rbi, slg, and ops
and a 2 should be in the middle of all of them
and amazingly thats just how it worked out except for runs scored where inge beat young
as a wise man once said, “it’s like comparing apples and oranges”
R.I.P. #34
All of that is understood
What I had asked for was a case to prove that Figgins was slighted in the selection of Inge over Figgins (in the second fan vote), or by Longoria in the first fan vote, or by Young, selected by the players to be the backup at 3B.
This goes back to my AYSO comment—we’re in a society where trying and being good is sufficient to be awarded, where schools graduate with a dozen valedictorians, where everyone who signs up gets to play. Figgins is having a great year. The question was, is his season demonstrably better than those of Longoria, Young or Inge? The fans answered in selecting Longoria and Inge, the other players in selecting Young. There is no sin in saying there might be players at 3B in the AL having better seasons.
So why is it being said here that Figgins is being jobbed?
Finally: Since we know that fan selection is all about ballot-box stuffing, why is it that a player having an excellent year and playing for a team with one of the highest attendance figures in all of baseball can’t win a slot in two different votes? Shouldn’t the acrimony at Figgins being passed over for a job fall to the Angel fans as a whole for not voting as ferociously as the fans of other players, instead of misdirected venom towards Maddon?
by George Kaplan on Jul 16, 2009 4:44 AM PDT up reply actions 2 recs
You speak with great eloquence.
I like it. Now that I’ve gotten over my hissy-fit over Maddon, I really agree with what you say. There should be no one to blame but ourselves for Figgins’s lack of support through both rounds of voting.
Thanks for being so awesome. :)

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