Cleveland Trade Lee and Francisco for Abba Zabba Bar and some Minor leaguers
by MidwayCityLivestock on Jul 29, 2009 11:40 AM PDT
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Indians fans rejoice as it appears their team's management pull of BLOCKBUSTER for delicious taffy treat and some ball players
I made a FanShot about this but nobody reads those anyways, so here it is. Report says:
The Philadelphia Phillies and Cleveland Indians agreed to a trade that would bring Cliff Lee to the NL East leaders along with outfielder Ben Francisco for four minor-leaguers, according to major league sources.
Triple-A right-hander Carlos Carrasco, Single-A righty Jason Knapp, catcher Lou Marson -- the likely heir apparent to Victor Martinez -- and shortstop Jason Donald will be sent to Cleveland.
So basically they're saying we could have gotten Cliff Lee and Ben Francisco for Mason Tobin, Hainly Statia, Bobby Wilson, and Anthony Ortega????? Cool? I probably would have made that trade. As I said in my FanShot:
Not like we need pitching.. THERES A REASON WHY WE LEAD THE WORLD IN COME FROM BEHIND VICTORIES!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
UGH!!!!!!! I Hate this crap!!
This Fan-Post is authored by an independent fan. Tell us what you think and how you feel.
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On looking at this trade, my first impression was that Cleveland got their asses kicked.
#34 Forever
Plugging the upside since 2006.
Never give up, never surrender!
I never understand what other teams are thinking with stuff like this.
They ask the Angels for uber-prospects or KEY PIECES of our CURRENT TEAM and then act all surprised when we say no thanks. Then they turn around and trade the same player to someone else for what amounts to a box of crap. Seriously, what the hell?
~Till the Halo burns out...
by Zu Long on Jul 29, 2009 7:33 PM PDT up reply actions 1 recs
First of all...
…we don’t know what players the Indians asked the Angels for, and God help us all if we rely on Heyman or Rosenthal for the inside info.
Second, it is axiomatic that a GM would extract a higher price for a team in one’s own league than the opposite league, and a higher price still within one’s division. Thus, a higher price from the Angels than the Phillies isn’t illogical.
Finally, these players the Indians received are better than I think you’re acknowledging. Cleveland’s season was over months ago, so this isn’t about 2009, but it is a great move for 2010 and 2011.
by George Kaplan on Jul 29, 2009 7:51 PM PDT up reply actions
Consider this:
Two guys come into your store at the same time, both extremely panicked and extremely upset and both desparately looking to buy your last jar of Grey Poupon.
One guy reaches into his pocket and pulls out all his cash and shows that he has $20 in change. So you demand his $20.
Meanwhile…
The other guys reaches into his wallet and pulls out $50.
What do you do?
1) say to the 2nd man “the first guy offered $20. Gimmee $20 and the mustard is yours.”
2) say to the 2nd man “gimmee $21 and the mustard is yours.”
3) say to the 2nd man “gimmee $50 or the mustard is his.”
We don't have a Bullpen. We have a Cowpen. Before we get to call it a Bullpen these guys gotta grow a pair.
You're assuming facts not in evidence
Unless this is the dramatic moment where you reveal yourself to be Assistant to Tony Reagins, none of us knows which players the Angels offered, nor what they expected in return (for example: Maybe they offered Saunders, O’Sullivan, Wood and a couple of AA player, but expected a reliever with Halladay).
Since many of the “offers” reported for Halladay include Aybar, and Erick is widely regarded to be the pet player of Arte Moreno and one of the least likely Angels to be traded, I have disregarded most of the reports of “offers” the Angels have been alleged to have made in these various stories.
So to go for a more realistic version of your “what would you do?” above, let’s assume one man pulls out the requisite engraved picture of Andy Jackson, while the other man
A) Dithers and doesn’t respond with authority
B) Offers a ten, a five and a ten dollar gift certificate to Shakey’s Pizza
C) Offers ten dollars and another fifteen dollars in Lotto scratcher tickets
All are possible responses from the Angel front office. Maybe the Phillies gave the Indians a time-loaded take-it-or-leave-it deal to keep from losing Lee after giving up on Halladay. The Times reported that Kendrick was offered, but maybe the Angels reconsidered after the way he’s been hitting in the past week. The story in the LA Daily News claimed the Indians were demanding a lot of pitching, but only two of the four players they received for Lee and Francisco were pitchers.
The truth is, none of us know. Unless and until stories are corroborated from within each of the front offices to confirm these tales, what we “know” is otherwise only the desperate retelling of rumors by online columnists who are determined not to be the last guy to report on a breaking story. And until that time, assuming the Indians foolishly took a lesser offer from the Phillies than from the Angels is pretty silly.
by George Kaplan on Jul 29, 2009 10:06 PM PDT up reply actions 1 recs
I have looked into my crystal ball...
….and I have seen a long, long response to this comment in your future.
I have always liked
Shakeys Pizza. Pre-pizza hut (blech), it was the place to go to in Orange
I must not fear. Fear is the mind-killer.
'course I probably wouldn't like it now
but memory is so much better than reality and one’s taste without experience is so different that one’s with (hell, my kids like “Caesar Caeser” at one time)
The same goes with guys like Trevor Hoffman. Classy guy always closing for an inoffensive team, but reality may not meet impression in this case. I think we should look younger, instead of older.
But I do have good memories of Hoffman (mmmm. Shakeys)
I must not fear. Fear is the mind-killer.
Shakeys is good stuff, less so today than in memory, but still.
[BTW, Lamppost, Formerly of Fullerton and now in Irvine, wins, hands down. No not all Lamppost Pizzas, just that one.]
Let's do this for Nick Adenhart, Courtney Stewart, and Henry Pearson.
The one on Walnut, right?
Surely you don’t mean the one in Woodbridge? I give those guys props for supporting youth sports, but I was subjected to many “team dinners” at the Woodbridge Lamppost and had some of the most aggressively mediocre pizza one could imagine.
When the season was over, we crossed Culver and went to Round Table….yum.
by George Kaplan on Jul 30, 2009 1:22 PM PDT up reply actions
I'm assuming you're talking about the past...
The best pizza used to be Lamppost in Fullerton. I started working in Irvine in ’03 and went to the Woodbridge Lamppost once on my lunch break (which was ~20 minute drive.) I was horribly disillusioned.
I moved to Las Vegas soon after and visited California and went to get me some Fullerton Lamppost, and it was no longer there. I heard rumor that they moved to another location, and after moving back to CA from LV, I started a Great Lamppost Tour to try and find where Fullerton went. No luck. I went to all of them that Google Maps could find, with the exception of Woodbridge. No luck. Sad Alan.
Fast forward, I’m working in Irvine again, I decide to give Lammpost Woodbridge one more shot – maybe I was remembering wrong? I walk in and immediately recognize the owner and two of the employees behind the counter. The Fullerton gang. They took over! And the pizza was as good as I ever remembered it to be.
I was there at Lamppost last year when the Aybar couldn’t bunt, Willits couldn’t catch, and the Angels were knocked out of the playoffs by the Sox yet again. So that sucked. But I’ll be back again this year (I have faith that the Angels will, in fact, also be back.)
Let's do this for Nick Adenhart, Courtney Stewart, and Henry Pearson.
I heard the Walnut and Culver in Irvine Lamppost is the original owner of all Lamppost Pizzas. They had to sell the other locations due to divorce or something. The one in Woodbridge (Barranca and Yale) is a sauna in the non-winter months in their “big screen” TV room. The pizzas taste virtually the same, imho.
I love this team.
by Downing Rules on Jul 30, 2009 6:18 PM PDT up reply actions
As in
“Fun” spelled backwards is “Nuf” and Shakey’s has “Nuf fun” for everyone!
Angels fan since '67
Dude, I was not disagreeing with you. I was adding a sample scenario.
You are right, we have no clue what is being bandied about in fact. We only have rumors and innuendo for some parts of some negotiations. I have made your exact same point in numerous threads in prior years.
(Although I am not so sure about it being axiomatic that in-league trades necessitate a higher price.)
My point was to put the reader into a position of seller, take your point of “the selling price is gonna be a total surprise because the reader is making overly simple assumptions”, and then allowing the reader to be forced to react emotionally to a highly stretched potential reality, thereby knocking the reader off of some safe phony reality.
We don't have a Bullpen. We have a Cowpen. Before we get to call it a Bullpen these guys gotta grow a pair.
Fair enough
(Although I am not so sure about it being axiomatic that in-league trades necessitate a higher price.)
I think if you review trades, you can see that this is true. This applies when trading a player of quality (as opposed to simply unloading someone, like Steve Finley). No GM wants to look like a chump, so as much distance as he can put between himself and the player, the better.
If the player is traded outside of the League, then the worst that can happen is facing that player in interleague play or the Series. If the player is traded within the League but into a different division, then the player may come back to haunt his former team in the more frequent intra-league meetings. If the player is traded within the division, though, then there are 15-20 opportunities for that trade to come back and bite the GM in the ass each season.
Therefore, a GM will no so much give a discount to another GM in the opposite League as he will extract a higher asking price for a trade within the League, and an even higher one for a team within his division.
If the Red Sox were to offer Bucholz, Masterson and Lars Anderson (which is yet another rumor), that is arguably a fatter package of talent for the Jays than anything bandied about from the Angels.
Another rumor (which makes me laugh): D Magazine (in Dallas) reports that the Rangers are bidding for Halladay, but only if the Jays pay the rest of his 2009 salary.
by George Kaplan on Jul 31, 2009 9:22 AM PDT up reply actions
I love this site
I don’t have to agree 100% of the time with the George Kaplans, the Moondoggys, the Zu Longs, the Stirrups and the mattwelchs and so many, many others…
but I appreciate the thoughtful posts and detailed explanations so many of you put into your posts. That’s why I come to this site and why it is bookmarked on my browser.
More than anything, I appreciate all of you fellow Angel fans and your passion for our team. I am proud to be an LAA fan. It’s nice to know that there are a bunch of you out there that live and die with the ebbs and the flows just like me.
This has been one heck of a season, what a rollercoaster ride it has been. I am happy to have shared it with each of you. I hope bright things are in store for us all the rest of the season. And I hope we don’t trade Kendrick!
Carry on, and let’s keep lighting up the friggin’ Halo!
NA, #34 SP, LAA
Light up the Halo for Nick!
The Fail Bus leaves in five minutes, please make sure you are under it...
You're in good company
I don’t have to agree 100% of the time with the George Kaplans, the Moondoggys, the Zu Longs, the Stirrups and the mattwelchs and so many, many others…
My wife feels exactly the same way.
by George Kaplan on Jul 31, 2009 9:23 AM PDT up reply actions
Yeah, Cleveland fans are very unhappy.
I could post some quotes from their boards, but I used up by F-Bomb quota last night on Jeff Nelson.
Let's do this for Nick Adenhart, Courtney Stewart, and Henry Pearson.
Too bad yesterday was the Jay's deadline for trade... or so they say
Either way, I seriously doubt that this really changes much in the Halladay talks. Those two are VERY different pitchers. This is more a case of bad management than deflated value or market dynamics changing…
by MidwayCityLivestock on Jul 29, 2009 12:23 PM PDT up reply actions
Probably to the point where he doesn't get traded.
"F it, let's pitch." - Ervin Santana
by Chzburger Jones on Jul 30, 2009 3:39 AM PDT up reply actions
Philadelphia must have pretty damn good Abba Zabba bars
To get last year’s Cy Young winner.
Sound like Philly threw in an Almond Joy as well to sweeten the deal.
RIP #34
predict
I predict Angels give into the Jays and Angels land Halladay- we will give up Wood and a starting pitcher for sure.
by Ca1IFORNIA ANGELS on Jul 29, 2009 12:45 PM PDT reply actions
And only be marginally better than before the trade...
since that trade would also have to include at least one more player (and I doubt ML Pitcher = Saunders).
by MidwayCityLivestock on Jul 29, 2009 12:49 PM PDT up reply actions
Doubtful
Ricciardi was the guy who signed Halladay to that deal in the first place. This was to be the cornerstone of a winning franchise in Toronto. The last thing he’d do is trade Halladay for three magic beans. He needs a haul along the lines of Texas from Atlanta to prove his spending all that money on Halladay was worth it in the first place, since the rafters at Rogers Centre are noticeably short of championship banners.
by George Kaplan on Jul 29, 2009 1:19 PM PDT up reply actions
Something tells me the Sox would have to pay an even higher price
than requested from the Phils as Jays probably don’t want to lose to Halladay 8-10 times a season…
by MidwayCityLivestock on Jul 29, 2009 3:41 PM PDT up reply actions
That won't get it done.
They want Wood AND Aybar, a starting pitcher, and either Bourjos or Reckling.
I’m loosening my stance on Wood as time goes on but giving up both him and Aybar is ridiculous and should be out of the question for the Angels in my mind.
"F it, let's pitch." - Ervin Santana
by Chzburger Jones on Jul 30, 2009 3:45 AM PDT up reply actions
I think it is ridiculous, and that's why we haven't consummated a deal with TOR
We aren’t giving up two of our IF’ers, bottom line
NA, #34 SP, LAA
Light up the Halo for Nick!
The Fail Bus leaves in five minutes, please make sure you are under it...
Once again the white man has stolen from the Indians
Did the Phillies offer to throw in some smallpox-ridden blankets?
by Brew Angel on Jul 29, 2009 1:09 PM PDT reply actions 4 recs
whoa my, hahahaha
NA, #34 SP, LAA
Light up the Halo for Nick!
The Fail Bus leaves in five minutes, please make sure you are under it...
awesome.
how do we not even match that offer? that’s crap!
Thank you, Nick Adenhart. You will always be remembered. #34
It seems like it now...
But remember, everyone thought the same way about the Indians when they made the Colon deal and got Sizemore, Lee and Brandon Phillips back. Too bad for Cleveland, they gave up on Phillips too early.
You can’t judge a trade like this until 3 to 5 years down the road.
NA, #34 SP, LAA
Light up the Halo for Nick!
The Fail Bus leaves in five minutes, please make sure you are under it...
I'm struggling
with how people think this wasn’t a good deal from Cleveland’s perspective. My understanding, anyway, is that Carrasco is a more highly rated pitching prospect than anyone the Angels could offer.
So, a comparable Angels package might include Trevor Bell, Hank Conger and Aybar, plus maybe a Cedar Rapids or Orem-level pitcher.
Jason Knapp
Apparently was the guy the Indians really wanted. He’s in high A i believe, but is suppose to have a great upside. The Indians also got Jason Donald who some say projects at second instead of the SS he plays now. Again making sense for the Indians since they were looking for a guy a second that could help sooner than later. The upside/potential of the players don’t seem as high, but a couple of them are closer to being MLB ready.
OK
so maybe something like Bell, Conger, Aybar/Sean Rodriguez, and Walden/Reckling/Torres. A still price for Lee.
Carrasco might be "highly rated" but,
This year he is 6-9 with a 5.18 ERA in AAA. His career minor league record is 45-44 with a 4.14 ERA. As far as I can tell, the guy is really nothing special. I’ve never seen him pitch and like all prospects he could break out one day, but he has yet to do so in 5 years in the minors. Personally, I would rather have Sean O’Sullivan who has been able to put up decent numbers in the minors and in the majors (although it is a small sample size). If they wanted a “projectable” arm, Walden could do the trick. Knapp throws 98, and has struggled in A ball this year (2-7, 4.01era) and is currently hurt. This trade just makes no sense to me. They at least got LaPorta on the Sabathia trade and Santana in the Blake trade. This one is just embarrasing. Looks like a case of quantity over quality.
Carrasco's upside isn't that great, though. I'm kinda surprised the Indians didn't go for 1 A grade guy
and 1 other piece. And don’t forget they threw in Ben Francisco, a league average hitter with a decent glove in the OF. They should have been able to get more value.
#34 Forever
Plugging the upside since 2006.
Never give up, never surrender!
I dont see what the fuss is about, I would have done the trade
But then again abba zabbas are my favorite and I haven’t had one in like 6 years bcause they don’t have them in Texas
R.I.P. #34
thought about it a little bit
and the sad thing is our equivalent trade would have been something like Reckling, Bell/Smith and SRod for Lee. Add in Conger or Wilson for Francisco.
how’d we not make that deal?
Thank you, Nick Adenhart. You will always be remembered. #34
Good Question
Maybe the Angels just weren’t all that interested. It could be that they’re really focusing on bullpen help.
I dunno.
Donald really doesn’t seem as good as S-Rod but okay. I KNOW neither of their pitchers have been close to as good as the ones you lis.
I think similar trade is more like O’Sullivan, Tobin, Wilson, and S-Rod (but like a sucky S-Rod).
The reason it didn’t get done is obvious, Ninja simply can’t fathom the stupidity that would accept a trade like that over a package we could put together for the same guy.
~Till the Halo burns out...
Three seasons from now, Shapiro will be called a genius. Again.
Carrasco and Knapp will be in the starting rotation, Donald will be anchoring SS and Marson, at worst, will be playing the role of Jeff Mathis on the Indians. They’ll have filled four slots for the price of two players, and all four will be cheap, cheap, cheap—and good. If they trade Victor Martinez and score a young starter from the Red Sox or Rays, that rotation can look that much better.
Develop some power in the lineup and the 2011 Indians will look like the 2008 Rays.
by George Kaplan on Jul 29, 2009 8:28 PM PDT up reply actions
they prob wont trade martinez
because marson was supposed to be their guy to take his place
R.I.P. #34
Exactly
That’s why this trade can’t be evaluated for 3-5 or more years. You can’t judge a trade like this until you see how the prospects fan out.
NA, #34 SP, LAA
Light up the Halo for Nick!
The Fail Bus leaves in five minutes, please make sure you are under it...
Are they going to surround us (fan out)?
I love this team.
by Downing Rules on Jul 31, 2009 7:13 AM PDT up reply actions
Abba Zabba bar?
idiots. Everyone knows you hold out till’ the Snickers is on the table
Tell your statistics to shut up
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