Angels once again the 'luckiest' team in baseball
I'm sure we all remember last year's articles on the Halos amazing ability to defy statistical analysis and post a record far in excess of their 'true' talent level. We've had a few discussions just this year on the ways this is claimed to be the case, but until recently we'd actually been outmatched in terms of luck by teams like the Houston Astros and San Francisco Giants according to the number crunchers. Well, no more. Having just glanced at Baseball Prospectus' hilarious 'adjusted' standings we are once again tops in the majors with 8.1 wins over where we should be if there were any sabermetrics justice in the universe. So give yourselves a pat on the back, Halos, because apparently, you haven't earned it.
This Fan-Post is authored by an independent fan. Tell us what you think and how you feel.
4 recs |
81 comments
Comments
I am quoted in the last paragraph
of that Wall Street Journal article. I refused to budge an inch on the guy’s “luck” premise.
The problem with buying into the Pythagorian standings is that not all runs are created equal. 1 run in a 1-0 game is far more valuable than 2 runs in a 5-0 game.
by Rev Halofan on Aug 12, 2009 7:03 PM PDT reply actions 0 recs
I'm thinking it's a modeling problem, pure and simple. Ian Fleming wrote
that once is happenstance, twice is coincidence, and three times is enemy action. As CKD pointed out below, 6 straight times (and we’re well on our way to #6) means there’s something wrong with the system you’re using.
#34 Forever
Plugging the upside since 2006.
Never give up, never surrender!
by TheOptimist on Aug 12, 2009 7:18 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
I think this is the correct observation
I don’t find anything mysterious about it either. For the last five years or so, the Angels have had very good late-inning relief pitchers (K-Rod, Fuentes, Shields, Arredondo, Oliver) but very bad middle-relief pitchers (Speier, Bootcheck, Carrasco, Romero, everyone on the 2009 team). Scioscia never changes his bullpen strategy, which is to save his good relievers for the late innings of a close game at all costs. So when his team gets ahead by even a small margin, they tend to win. When they get ahead by a large margin, it tends to turn into a small margin. And when they get behind, they get really behind. Thus their wins tend to be close wins, but their losses tend to be big losses.
The Pythagorean formula is an empirical law, there is no theory behind it. But in a sample of 30 teams over many seasons, the average margin of victory will be the same as the average margin of defeat. The Angels are an outlier that don’t have this symmetry, so they shouldn’t be expected to fit the model as well as other teams. I haven’t yet put this up to a statistical test over the long run, but this is my suspicion of what’s happening. It’s not luck as much as it is a very “polar” bullpen.
by Suboptimal on Aug 12, 2009 11:49 PM PDT up reply actions 1 recs
but but but
Your explanation of the Angels bullpen structure (and its success) undermines the theory that demands that one must use his best pitcher at the moment in the game of highest leverage, be it the 6th or 9th.
by Rev Halofan on Aug 13, 2009 12:30 AM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
That argument really has to do with closers
No manager in baseball uses his best relief pitcher in the highest leverage situation. Everyone would rather save the closer to protect those “precarious” three-run leads in the ninth instead of using them at critical points in the sixth or seventh inning. This is how the game used to be played before the idea of the closer evolved. The point of the sabermetric criticism is that a bullshit statistic, the save, determines how managers handle their bullpens, not the commonsense notion that you put out fires with a fireman. Sabermetricians are actually defending the old-school baseball practice in this case, the complete opposite of their usual attitude toward tradition.
by Suboptimal on Aug 13, 2009 1:16 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
But our bullpen sucks b***s this year, and yet we continue to overperform
And last year, we weren’t any better in close games than not.
by mattwelch on Aug 13, 2009 6:20 AM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
Huh?
I seem to remember at one point the HB times had us with more close games than anyone in the league and we were winning a majority of them.
~Till the Halo burns out...
by Zu Long on Aug 13, 2009 7:40 AM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
My bad, was going from memory at the halfway point of '08
Back then, we had already opened up a huge lead on Pythagoras, but had only a slightly better record in one-run games than in the rest. But by the time the season was finished, we were 21-10. My thoughts on the topic from back then.
by mattwelch on Aug 13, 2009 11:03 AM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
Hey, that was the Jonah Keri thread.
I remember that.
Man…some of my comments are pretty douche-y in there. I mean, I was right, but I was being a dick about it in places. I must have been really annoyed that week or something.
~Till the Halo burns out...
by Zu Long on Aug 13, 2009 2:38 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
Definitely agree with your thoughts and that someone needs to actually measure these effects.
All bullpens will be leveraged to some extent. But how much does a bullpen that’s extremely open to being leveraged compare to a bullpen that has the same talent level across the board? Two wins? Ten wins?
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by Sky Kalkman on Aug 20, 2009 12:07 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
I don't think you'll find anyone who believes otherwise...
not all runs are created equal. 1 run in a 1-0 game is far more valuable than 2 runs in a 5-0 game.
The real question is in what ways is being able to score a run when needed a skill (or preventing a run)? (And, I suppose, for what reasons would a team stop scoring runs when not needed or give up more runs)?
Obviously, a stronger than average bullpen, will prevent runs at the right time, which has consistently been a strength of the Angels. Some have argued that their style of offense scores more consistently, which tends to make more of the runs scored important. You can also be more willing to keep in a crappy starter or put in crappy relievers when the game is out of hand. That doesn’t seem like an Angel thing, though.
What else? What else explains being able to control the timing of runs?
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by Sky Kalkman on Aug 20, 2009 6:55 AM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
the force???
Well, sir, you are a cowardly son of a bitch! You just shot an unarmed man!.......Well, he should have armed himself if he's going to decorate his saloon with my friend. – Will Munny
by pslakerfan on Aug 21, 2009 9:47 AM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
Fuck pythag
if something happens every year for 6 straight years, the system is wrong.
by Caseys Kiss of Death on Aug 12, 2009 7:12 PM PDT reply actions 0 recs
Actually, the system is telling us that the Angels have an extraordinary way of winning
Which is useful information! The un-useful part is the interpretation, which tends heavily (and inaccurately) toward the word “luck.”
by mattwelch on Aug 12, 2009 7:36 PM PDT up reply actions 1 recs
Well, if the system's purpose
is to project a likelihood of winning, and it is consistently off in regards to one team, then the system clearly has kinks in it somewhere which leave a noteworthy blind spot for certain types of play…blind spots which may very easily be compensated for, but have not been to this point. I prefer calling that system ‘wrong.’
by Caseys Kiss of Death on Aug 12, 2009 7:48 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
Agree completely
I just wish they would try to find an explanation for it, or at least confront the problem, rather than just BS you and call it luck. I find it humorous that the Halos end up being the heretics of statistical worldview.
by HaloFanInDC on Aug 12, 2009 8:13 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
But if other teams stopped to find out why the Angels win this way...
Then they might learn something and we’d have more competition.
Therefore I blame the monkey. All teams need to find their own damn monkey.
Let's do this for Nick Adenhart, Courtney Stewart, and Henry Pearson.
by AlanFalcon on Aug 18, 2009 3:09 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
Vould you like to touch my monkey?
Touch it!!!
Und now, ve dance!
Angels baseball. We do what we must, because we can -- HaloDutch
by red floyd on Aug 18, 2009 4:16 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
Dammit opiejeanne!
You like all the same stuff I do…
Too bad we’re both married! :-)
Angels baseball. We do what we must, because we can -- HaloDutch
by red floyd on Aug 19, 2009 8:53 AM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
I think I'm too old to train a new husband. Forty years with the current one in December.
Wait, are you the guy who knew about Ankh-Morpork?
We are busily making the tourist Twoflower’s camera in our kitchen out of odds and ends. He had the costume in his closet and it will be the only time I let him go outdoors wearing sandals with dark socks.
I’m going as a witch, how appropriate you might say. Miss Tick, Miss Perspicacia Tick. The hat is giving me fits.
THIS… IS… ANAHEIM!!
by opiejeanne on Aug 19, 2009 11:31 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
Hey WiHaloFan
How about a Sprockets Day At the Park?
“Vould you like to touch my rally monkey?”
Angels baseball. We do what we must, because we can -- HaloDutch
by red floyd on Aug 19, 2009 10:34 AM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
I have no idea what a "Sprockets" is.
I’ll have to google it I suppose.
by WiHaloFan on Aug 23, 2009 9:16 AM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
SNL sketch.
Angels baseball. We do what we must, because we can -- HaloDutch
by red floyd on Aug 23, 2009 2:37 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
"Give yourselves a pat on the back, because apparently you haven't earned it."
XD
~Till the Halo burns out...
by Zu Long on Aug 12, 2009 7:44 PM PDT reply actions 1 recs
lol
WE WILL WIN WITH WHAT WE GOT.
R.I.P. Nick Adenhart, Marquis Cooper, Steve McNair, and Frank Grimes, or Grimey, as he liked to be called
by JoseGuillenSux on Aug 12, 2009 10:47 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
Isn't it time, then, for a Michael Lewis book?
I mean REALLY—The bleeping A’s got one after being “so lucky” and even got a whole new statistical system out of it, or at least popularized one, and they barely did shit. Where’s the new, Angel-centric statistical system????
RIP Nick Adenhart.
"When the Babe tries to call his shot, I hope Nick puts one in his ear."
--RallyMonkey5
by Clutch on Aug 12, 2009 9:37 PM PDT reply actions 0 recs
I can see it now
“RESISTANCE POWER: How the Most Luminous Owner and GM Ever Put Together the Luckiest Team in Baseball, and How to Study Every Their Match,” BY LEWIS MICHAEL.
RIP Nick Adenhart.
"When the Babe tries to call his shot, I hope Nick puts one in his ear."
--RallyMonkey5
by Clutch on Aug 12, 2009 9:39 PM PDT up reply actions 1 recs
Ha!
Replace “Luckiest” with “Most Lucky” and you’re good to go
We are the Los Angeles Angels of the late 2000s
by Higz on Aug 13, 2009 12:07 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
Most Luckiest?
THIS… IS… ANAHEIM!!
by opiejeanne on Aug 13, 2009 12:11 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
take luck?
Thank you, Nick Adenhart. You will always be remembered. #34
by howiestheman on Aug 13, 2009 2:14 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
maybe they're all eating their lucky charms....
WE WILL WIN WITH WHAT WE GOT.
R.I.P. Nick Adenhart, Marquis Cooper, Steve McNair, and Frank Grimes, or Grimey, as he liked to be called
by JoseGuillenSux on Aug 12, 2009 10:44 PM PDT reply actions 0 recs
nice signature! you took my suggestion
by gary matthews jr. jr. on Aug 13, 2009 9:38 AM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
BS models don't work
because if it did, everyone would be winning their bets at the sports book.
by dan73962 on Aug 12, 2009 11:41 PM PDT reply actions 1 recs
Luck
“Luck is not chance-
It’s Toil-
Fortune’s expensive smile
Is earned-” – Emily Dickinson.
Angel Pitching, Angel Defense - get past that.
by vladtheimpaler on Aug 13, 2009 1:36 AM PDT reply actions 0 recs
I'd like to get Emily
on a craps table and have her say that.
by Rev Halofan on Aug 13, 2009 9:43 AM PDT up reply actions 2 recs
Hahaha, rec'd
RIP Nick Adenhart.
"When the Babe tries to call his shot, I hope Nick puts one in his ear."
--RallyMonkey5
by Clutch on Aug 13, 2009 10:10 AM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
Good luck getting her out of the house.
by OntariGro on Aug 13, 2009 5:55 PM PDT up reply actions 1 recs
I think she's in the narrow bed.
THIS… IS… ANAHEIM!!
by opiejeanne on Aug 13, 2009 9:59 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
I would guess that the Missus might take issue...
with you getting Emily anywhere, much less on any craps table.
We don't have a Bullpen. We have a Cowpen. Before we get to call it a Bullpen these guys gotta grow a pair.
by Stirrups on Aug 21, 2009 7:36 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
I love statistics, but this is garbage
As Matt noted above, the only value of this metric is that it indicates that the Angels have an extraordinary way of winning. Although the metric is offered as evidence that the Angels are not as good as they appear to be, it would seem that the metric in fact is further evidence that MS is the best manager in baseball, because MS has found a way (not revealed by this metric) to manufacture wins year after year.
by Brody on Aug 13, 2009 6:58 AM PDT reply actions 0 recs
The problem isn't necessarily with the metric
it is how people interpret it. The P’ Theorem does provide a relativly accurate prediction of a team’s record. The problem is when people use is as an equation for what a team’s record should be rather than what it could be
by gary matthews jr. jr. on Aug 13, 2009 9:41 AM PDT reply actions 0 recs
No it doesn't...
…it gives you a way of establishing the length of the sides of a right angled triangle. That’s where these eejits are going wrong…
I see red people
by The Limey on Aug 13, 2009 11:16 AM PDT up reply actions 1 recs
but if we're lucky every year, how is it luck?
and at what point does BP maybe consider that theres a hole in their little system and that style of play can work around their projected win totals?
RIP Nick Adenhart
by ihearhowie2.0 on Aug 13, 2009 10:17 AM PDT reply actions 0 recs
Forget the "GA is so lazy" meme
If these lazy “analysts” really wanted to do some investigation they could conduct a game-by-game breakdown during the Angels 900+ game “lucky streak” so as to deterimine which games the Angels supposedly lucked into a win. For each game, every play could be examined from a ‘luck’ viewpoint in the context of pitching, defensive, and offensive contributions, as well as the leverage of the situation.
Supposedly the Angels have eight “lucky” wins this year that they shouldn’t have won. I’d like to know these specific games. Because apparently there have been eight occasions I was cheering at the end of the game when in fact I should have been booing.
by XYZ123 on Aug 13, 2009 12:32 PM PDT reply actions 3 recs
Yeah, and how about those eight truly "unlucky" games in April and May?
I do believe the Halos would be looking at something like 76 wins at this point if the Grand Slam Specialist and Co. hadn’t wreaked their havoc in those first two months…
RIP Nick Adenhart.
"When the Babe tries to call his shot, I hope Nick puts one in his ear."
--RallyMonkey5
by Clutch on Aug 14, 2009 12:29 AM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
And if we hadn't pitched an injured Shields
in numerous late-game situations before we finally shut him down.
by Brody on Aug 14, 2009 6:13 AM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
Exactly
Damn, we’d be looking at like 90 wins already! ;-D
RIP Nick Adenhart.
"When the Babe tries to call his shot, I hope Nick puts one in his ear."
--RallyMonkey5
by Clutch on Aug 14, 2009 10:57 AM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
And still be only
the second best team in the AL West
by eyespy on Aug 17, 2009 10:43 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
Ignore me if you were just joking.
But that’s not what the point is at all, whether or not you agree with the premise.
If you flip 7 out of 10 heads, you were lucky to get two more heads than expected. But you can’t tell me which two flips were the lucky ones. (Yes, it’s a soft analogy.)
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by Sky Kalkman on Aug 20, 2009 6:59 AM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
Real soft......
Coin flips are 100% luck. Therefore each flip is luck. Baseball is x% luck and y% skill. Therefore a particular game could be more luck and less skill than the average. Think 5 errors in one game by losing team. Luck? Of course.
Well, sir, you are a cowardly son of a bitch! You just shot an unarmed man!.......Well, he should have armed himself if he's going to decorate his saloon with my friend. – Will Munny
by pslakerfan on Aug 21, 2009 9:54 AM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
It's just the gift that keeps on giving.
As of today, if the universe were run according to sabermetrics, the Rangers would be above us in the standings according to 3rd order wins.
#34 Forever
Plugging the upside since 2006.
Never give up, never surrender!
by TheOptimist on Aug 13, 2009 5:34 PM PDT reply actions 0 recs
Pythag
this
Godspeed Nick - RIP - 1986-2009
by norcaliangelsfan on Aug 16, 2009 9:16 PM PDT reply actions 0 recs
I agree with the person who said "Not all runs are created equal".
The Arizona Diamondbacks won lover 90 games in 2007 if I remember correctly despite having a negative run differential. It doesn’t matter how you win, just how often. Winning by 10 runs is no better than winning by 1 run and similarly, losing by 1 run is no different than losing by 10. It depends on the context of the game really. Every game is different. A win is a win and a loss is a loss. The Pythagorean Record formula treats all games as they are exactly the same and nothing is farther from the truth. Baseball is the most highly analyzed sport statistically but no matter how many new crazy metrics they come up, they will never be able to quantify the intangibles of the game.
"F it, let's pitch." - Ervin Santana
by Chzburger Jones on Aug 17, 2009 2:14 AM PDT reply actions 0 recs
I agree with the person who said "Not all runs are created equal".
The Arizona Diamondbacks won lover 90 games in 2007 if I remember correctly despite having a negative run differential. It doesn’t matter how you win, just how often. Winning by 10 runs is no better than winning by 1 run and similarly, losing by 1 run is no different than losing by 10. It depends on the context of the game really. Every game is different. A win is a win and a loss is a loss. The Pythagorean Record formula treats all games as they are exactly the same and nothing is farther from the truth. Baseball is the most highly analyzed sport statistically but no matter how many new crazy metrics they come up, they will never be able to quantify the intangibles of the game.
"F it, let's pitch." - Ervin Santana
by Chzburger Jones on Aug 17, 2009 8:50 AM PDT reply actions 0 recs
Adjusted Standings
They run them over on Beyond the Boxscore.
I fully understand that a team’s actual record is not always indicative of their quality of play. Sometimes teams do get lucky/unlucky (and the lucky team in the AL West is Seattle, by the way). I’m not going to call B.S. if they put the Angels 3rd or 4th instead of 1st or 2nd.
But they have us behind freakin TORONTO, for crying out loud. The 4th place, 55-61 Blue Jays are actually better than the 1st place, 70-45 Angels? That just jumps the shark, and I can’t take it seriously.
The HK-47 hitting droid is the finest line drive machine ever built
by RallyMonkey5 on Aug 17, 2009 9:36 AM PDT reply actions 0 recs
Hilarious isn't it?
Of course, Sky Kalkman is an A’s fan. But that means nothing, it’s all numbers… >_>;
~Till the Halo burns out...
by Zu Long on Aug 17, 2009 7:16 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
Sean, I'd at least expect you to dig a little deeper and attack a part of the methodology instead of crying BS.
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by Sky Kalkman on Aug 20, 2009 7:02 AM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
Reality has already impeached the methodology.
At this point, it’s really up to you to convince us that the method is still worth paying attention to.
~Till the Halo burns out...
by Zu Long on Aug 20, 2009 8:12 AM PDT up reply actions 3 recs
The method
Is expected runs scored via wOBA and expected runs allowed via tRA + our best defensive estimates like UZR and DER. I assume that you don’t have a problem with those measurements.
I’m assuming the thing that you (and probably most Angels fans in the world) have a problem with is using Pythag to turn those expected runs and runs allowed into wins. That is the thing that will always cause problems; however, there is no proof either way that the Angels have or don’t have an ability to drastically outperform their Pythag. Until somebody takes an in depth look at it, the debate is never going to be settled.
Thanks
by vivaelpujols on Aug 21, 2009 12:13 AM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
Hmmm
Here’s what I’m wondering:
Apparently, the Angels are + (crazy amount) in team baserunning every season (or every season for a while). I’m wondering if this helps a team outperform their expected Pythag based on RS/RA
Aaron King is still my homeboy... iffy mechanics and all
If Dustin Pedroia played in Seattle, not many people would be talking about him.
GET THAT VORP SH!T OUTTA HERE!!!
by baetown415 on Aug 21, 2009 3:49 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
One honest dude. Welcome to HH.
It is not encumbent upon the Solar System to explain why it does not adhere to Ptolemaic motion. And creating even more epicycles within the epicycles is not the way to solve the Angels Pythag problem. The solution must lie outside Pythag math, and it is encumbent on those who lay claim to statistical analysis as a predictive solution to describe team results to figure it out, else surrender.
The Angels Pythag problem is real. It is consistent, and it is accelerating.
We don't have a Bullpen. We have a Cowpen. Before we get to call it a Bullpen these guys gotta grow a pair.
by Stirrups on Aug 21, 2009 4:37 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
At the end of the day
Sometimes luck is better than skill. All you have to do is look at the scoreboard at the end of the game and ask yourself “Who won?” and that’s what counts in the real works of baseball.
by Big Daddy Dave on Aug 19, 2009 9:28 PM PDT reply actions 0 recs
1, 2, 5, 4, 12, 7
Those are the number of games the Angels’ Win total has beaten their Pythag by over the last six years. ’04 and ’05 are nothing. ’06 and ’07 are solid, but nothing crazy. ’08 was crazy. ’09 is on pace to be crazy.
I guess my question is, How big is the Angels’ skill to beat Pythag? 12 games a year? 5 games a year? 2 games a year? Whichever you picks, don’t you have to accept that they’ve fluctuated around that number significantly over the past six years? And whichever you pick, we’re still looking for an answer why, right? Rev answered “Mike Scioscia” in our mid-season round table, but what’s the mechanism for winning more games than run differential expects with a good manager?
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by Sky Kalkman on Aug 20, 2009 7:33 AM PDT reply actions 0 recs
If there's a "mechanism" for it, you can be sure no one here knows what it is. The best we've been able to come up with
for why the last two years have been so crazy is the ever-widening disparity between the best relievers in our bullpen and the mop-up guys who fill in. Since the mop-ups only come in when we have a giant lead or are behind by a lot, our pythag is naturally manipulated by the variance. The other thing that seems to be true is that both of the last two Aprils the Angels have been forced to throw out a bunch of AAA-guys who have subsequently been completely lit up, yanking the Angels pythag down. However both seasons they have managed to keep enough average-above average starters in the rotation to stay competitive in the short run. Over the long haul, it would catch up to you, but in the short run you can keep your head above water.
But the big problem with the “lucky” mantra that we Angels have isn’t really based on Pythag. It’s more about the way predictions always seem to completely undershoot the real potential of the players the Angels put on the field. It’s the way the the current models seem organized to underrate the Angels not as a one-time fluke, but year after year.
A good example would be the adjusted standings mentioned above. You take the Angels (who even if they are 7 games over Pythag, are still the second-best team in the AL according to run-difference) you put their numbers into your calculations, and somehow arrive at the mind-boggling conclusion that in a less random world, the Blue Jays, currently +29 in run difference, are a better team. Almost 60 runs of difference over the course of two-thirds of a season of play are discarded to arrive at this conclusion. At THAT point, most Angels fans feel totally justified in shrugging their shoulders and flipping the bird at the whole school of thought.
That i
~Till the Halo burns out...
by Zu Long on Aug 20, 2009 8:45 AM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
Discard last two words. >_>
Think I started a sentence and forgot about it.
~Till the Halo burns out...
by Zu Long on Aug 20, 2009 9:01 AM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
Ok
Forget about the Pythag. It’s entirely possible that the Angel’s bullpen is leveraged enough to outperform their Pythag significantly over a full season, or that Mike Scoscia is just an amazing manager.
So far this year, the Angels Pythag W% is .554 and their actually W% is .613, so we’ll say that they have had the ability this year to outperform their Pythag by .059 points.
According to Justin’s rankings at BtB, the Angels should have scored 645 runs and allowed 608 runs. Their offense remains the best in the league with a .353 wOBA, however, tRA doesn’t like their pitching at all and their defense has been slightly below average.
Using those estimates of RS and RA, translates to a .529 Pythag you add the .059 points of “extra” wins due to their ability to outperform Pythag, then their expected W% is .588.
The question is whether or not you believe that the Angels are actually this good at overperforming Pythag. I suspect that the real answer is somewhere in between.
Thanks
by vivaelpujols on Aug 20, 2009 9:09 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
Well the math works!!!
That’s usually the first response of the guy that can’t explain a real world anomaly. I am sure the math works. You can continue to post the numbers to back up your claim. I think everyone’s point here is simple……use the “lol, you must be joking” test. If your answer is ridiculous to most reasonable people then the system is flawed. Toronto > Angels being our test of course.
There are two ways to test if the answer to a math problem is correct or not. The first one is “does this make any sense”. If it does then you input your answer back into the problem and see if it works mathematically. You seem to be glossing over the first test and going right to the second one. If I am solving for X, and X= the distance from NY to Chicago in miles, and my answer is 7, then I don’t need to go to the second test. It is just wrong (or in your case maybe just flawed).
Here is an example from basketball-reference.com. According to their formula, the NBA player with the highest offensive rating of all time is…………wait for it…………………Steve Kerr. Now this implies that statistically he is the best/most efficient offensive player ever. We all know this is a load of crap, however the “math” might work out just right. Using the “real world” test, we know there is a flaw in the system.
I am not saying that this system is bad (it might be the best system there is), but it certainly has flaws.
Well, sir, you are a cowardly son of a bitch! You just shot an unarmed man!.......Well, he should have armed himself if he's going to decorate his saloon with my friend. – Will Munny
by pslakerfan on Aug 21, 2009 10:15 AM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
An interesting post, but my original point was not about the Pythagorean runs theory.
It has more to do with the attitude towards it and, even more to the point, the third order wins of Baseball Prospectus and other advanced sabermetric ranking systems. In my opinion, Pythagorean wins are an interesting snap shot of where a team would be were all runs created equal. When I see a team whose Pythagorean wins are signifcantly above or below what they actually have, I am intrigued. I ask myself why this team or that team is so far from what the numbers say, what cause it could have.
Increasingly, however, I find Pythagorus and other saber-rankings used by others to say that this or that team has gotten unlucky, or that team over there is overperforming and bound to regress. In other words, when the numbers and reality disagree, REALITY IS AUTOMATICALLY WRONG. The numbers SHOULD be right, and the fact that they aren’t is simply proof of the whims of chance and bound to come around under the law of averages. I find this to be arrogant and dismissive of a sport played not by numbers but by real people, people who are subject to emotions, fatigue, injury and attitude.
By the way, I’d point out that Pythagorus isn’t the mechanism telling us that the Blue Jays, Rangers and White Sox are better teams than the Halos.
#34 Forever
Plugging the upside since 2006.
Never give up, never surrender!
by TheOptimist on Aug 20, 2009 12:35 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
Good points.
I think another one that’s underrated is that just because something isn’t being measured by the stats guys (like emotions, fatigue, injury, attitude, etc.) doesn’t mean that it’s correctly being picked up by other approaches. A lot of what gets said by managers, players, reporters, and talking heads is simply one plausible explanation for something that’s difficult to explain. When people hear a story that fits, then tend to believe it, even though it’s often just one of many plausible stories. Or sometimes the real explanation is a really weird, unlikely one and Occum’s Razor is wrong.
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by Sky Kalkman on Aug 20, 2009 2:23 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
Well Occum's Razor is never wrong............
cause it isn’t absolute. Meaning Ockham was smart enough to imply that the simplest answer “is usually” right or preferable. Smart guy that Ockham.
Well, sir, you are a cowardly son of a bitch! You just shot an unarmed man!.......Well, he should have armed himself if he's going to decorate his saloon with my friend. – Will Munny
by pslakerfan on Aug 21, 2009 10:20 AM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
Occam or Ockham, he sure was.
THIS… IS… ANAHEIM!!
by opiejeanne on Aug 21, 2009 10:24 AM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
Name was Ockham...........
principle is called Occam, not sure why the difference. Maybe changes in language or translation, who knows?
Well, sir, you are a cowardly son of a bitch! You just shot an unarmed man!.......Well, he should have armed himself if he's going to decorate his saloon with my friend. – Will Munny
by pslakerfan on Aug 21, 2009 11:14 AM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
Knew he was called William of Ockham, didn't know the Razor was the only thing called Occam.
THIS… IS… ANAHEIM!!
by opiejeanne on Aug 21, 2009 12:10 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs





















