Jim Bowden's realignment scenario
by California Cajun on Aug 18, 2009 12:52 PM PDT
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It is not my favorite but think it is a very interesting idea. (My favorite scenario would be to put all eight teams West of the Rockies in the same league or division to combat the East Coast bias.) The reason for doing this is because you aren't going to get a hard salary cap in labor negotiations. The idea is to lump teams with similar revenue and payrolls into the same divisions so that everyone has a chance at the postseason. He wants to eliminate the DH and play a completely balanced schedule between all 30 teams to truly determine who the best teams are. When asked if there was any way this could be accomplished, Bowden said that it was said interleague play/wildcards/and instant replay wouldn't happen either. I think the Angels would get more attention nationwide if in the same division with the Dodgers and Giants because other than the A's they are isolated with no other AL team West of the Rockies. A disadvantage is that if you balance out the schedule that leaves only 5.8 games per opponent in a 162-game schedule. AL EAST (Team, team revenue/team payroll) AL CENTRAL AL PACIFIC NL SOUTHEAST NL MIDWEST NL WEST |
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Here is a big issue to overcome
NL teams still find a stigma to being in the AL.
Hard to believe, since they play a generally inferior brand of ball.
Acknowleding that some form of geographical nonsense will happen, how do the Astros, on the Gulf Coast of Texas, wind up in the NL West?
Astros in NL West same as the Rangers in the AL West
I guess it’s a scenario of nowhere to put the Astros.
Actually if no realignment is done, I’d like to see the Astros go to the AL West (Astro fans probably wouldn’t). It gives the Rangers a nearby divisional foe, which they don’t have now, and it gives each of the six divisions 5 teams and each league the same number of teams.
by California Cajun on Aug 18, 2009 2:25 PM PDT up reply actions
AGREED
both Texas Teams get screwed on this … funny how the east coast looks at things – I would see San Diego, Colorado, Texas, Houston and Arizona making a great “Southwest” division.
That acutally makes sense to me.
Then the Pacific Division could be:
Seattle, San Fransisco, Oakland, and both Los Angeles teams sound good to me.
Travel time would be cut down. Instead of the Angels flying to Arlington, Seattle, Oakland, and back to L.A. can now make a trip down the five and add an extra stop in the Bay Area.
RIP Nick Adenhart 4/9/09
I blog about the Angels at The Diamond Aces
Selig already explained why this won't happen.
That means there would always have to be an interleague matchup going all year. However, if the DH is eliminated (or the NL decides to adopt the DH, which I think is better and more likely), then it renders interleague play useless, and we might as well have 5 teams per division.
This season is my best chance to get called out of the stands to pitch.
by Rally Manatee on Aug 19, 2009 8:26 AM PDT up reply actions
I Wish we could move straight into the NL west.
what was are record against them this year 12-3 or something like that
R.I.P. Nick Adenhart #34
I see potential there
Plus the NL needs to go to the DH rule anyways. Nobody cares about the pitcher batting. Plus with how much pitchers get paid these days, you don’t want to see one get hurt while batting. (usually well below the Mendoza line I might add) And also the NL might actually be able to compete with AL teams finally on an everyday basis.
And for those who cry that NL style is the way baseball is supposed to be: Times change. Baseball changed. That thinking was for my grandpa. Though on this site I doubt there’d be anyone crying about that.
Sorry for the 2cent rant…
W6G!
It’s ironic. The only reason the NL does not have the DH is because the owner of the Pirates was on vacation and incomunicado when they had the vote. He told his GM to vote the same way the Phillies voted. The Phillies abstained and the DH was voted down by one vote. The ironic thing is, the Pirates wanted the DH and the Phillies abstained because they thought it would pass anyway without their vote. We should have it in both leagues anyway.
by Baylorsgroove on Aug 20, 2009 6:09 AM PDT up reply actions
If you all think this is interesting;
You guys should read up on Jim Bowden’s findings on Cold Fusion and Time Travel.
Once I can find the links I’ll post them…
Personally I think it’s important for the Dodgers and Angels to remain in separate leagues. Much like I think it would suck if the Mets and Yankees were in the same league.
by MidwayCityLivestock on Aug 18, 2009 2:32 PM PDT reply actions
Wow, I thought I was the only nerd (of that sort) on HH!
Angels baseball. We do what we must, because we can -- HaloDutch
All that really needs to be done
Brewers move back to the AL West. Even if it isn’t geographically correct, there is no reason for the NL Central to have 6 teams while AL West has 4.
Moving close geographical teams like us and the Dodgers into the same division is a stupid idea because it robs a market of having a choice between NL and AL teams. Do you really think that the teams making the switch from AL to NL would enjoy seeing the drop in revenue because they lose out on the Yanks and Red Sox?
I would love to see the Angels and Padres in the same division since I am now a San Diego transplant and I’d love to have two places to see the Angels play. There is definitely an Angels fanbase down here, as I witnessed at the exhibition game in March where the majority of the fans were donning red, and I’d love to watch the Angels style of speed and gap power work itself in Petco.
#34, never forget.
Something everyone always forgets...
It’s impossible to make a schedule where all teams play on the same day with 15 AL teams and 15 NL teams. Unless two teams are added or two are subtracted, the leagues have to remain unbalanced 16 – 14.
by bryan15 on Aug 18, 2009 2:49 PM PDT reply actions 3 recs
do something
We should never think we have it perfect, and improvement is always possible.
But despite some people saying they think Jim is a bright guy, I will never think of him as anything other than an idiot. Putting 4 of the highest revenue teams in one five team division is a complete non-starter.
I know the answer and one of these 2 things need to be done:
1. Have the AL go back to 2 seven team divisions with 2 wild cards. I know us Angel fans don’t care, but making it so hard for the Rays, Jays and O’s to make the playoffs will eventually destroy those teams. The Rays had to suck for 10 straight years and do superb job with all those top 5 picks just to make a run at the playoffs for a few years. Meanwhile deeply flawed teams from the current AL central cruise into the playoffs each year.
2. Have one NL West team move to the AL West (the Padres would be a good choice), then re-align the NL into 4 four team divisions with no wild card. That way one league is the new fangled league and one is old fashioned, something for everyone. (Texas shifts to the Central, and one AL team has to move to the NL.) This way the 8 teams that are completely west of all the other teams are in their own western divisions, and this should help with travel costs too.
I agree
Go back to two seven team divisions!!!!!
by Ca1IFORNIA ANGELS on Aug 18, 2009 4:41 PM PDT up reply actions
When did the city of Seattle end up on the other side of the Rockies?
I have been away for a couple of weeks on vacation, so maybe I missed the apocalypse?
We don't have a Bullpen. We have a Cowpen. Before we get to call it a Bullpen these guys gotta grow a pair.
Kind of a re-hash of some ideas that were floated around 10-12 years ago
…along with the contraction talk regarding the Marlins/Expos/Royals of the world. Of course, the Marlins went on to win a title in 2003, lol.
Even though it was geographically asinine, I liked the good ol’ days of Atlanta and Cincinnati in the NL West, and the Minnesota’s, ChiSox, and Royals in the AL West.
Nick Adenhart - 1986 - 2009 R.I.P.
So, at the end of the day, what Bowden is trying to solve is...
…creating a way for owners who are cheap to get rewarded with playoff revenue. He feels bad for the Royals and the Pirates not having a shot at a playoff slot. I do seem to recall both of those franchises having had playoff teams in the free agent era. Maybe it ain’t the towns or the markets, but the current owners/GM’s?
Even still, for some reason Bowden does not appear too sympathetic to any concern for “fairness” when it comes to the Blue Jays. If his position is that all the teams in a division must be close to one another in revenue and payroll else they cannot compete, he is happily throwing Toronto under the bus.
But then, I reject the whole premise of his argument anyways. Bowden implies that failure to compete is directly attributable to failure to realize revenue, which results in an inability to spend. There is no law that spending a lot equates to spending wisely. There is no law that assigns blame for poor revenue exclusively on the local market (in fact, it could be argued that poor revenue is a result of poor spending which results in poor product, and the local market is reacting exactly right.)
So using Bowden’s example, a team could CHOOSE to be miserly with their payroll, REALIZE a bad product, generate MINIMAL revenue as the fans fail to support a bad product, but then get rewarded by being slotted with like-minded cheapskates and make the playoffs and then POCKET THE PROFITS. I thought that this way of thinking only happened in Oakland.
And, of course, what do we do over time? Oh. Yeah. We switch this up every 3 years based on the new revenue/payroll realities. Memo to Bowden: you are leveraging rivalries that exist today only because they have been built up over time. Changing things up every 3 years based on financial reports will only threaten to uncork those relationships and dissolve the notion of rivalries going forward. You eventually won’t have anything other than finiancials and geography upon which to base decisions. Yeah, that sounds fun. And it is done by committee. An MLB committee. Anybody recall a time when one of those actually worked?
Then we get such gems as: “All of these clubs can afford payrolls between the 80 and 120 million dollar mark.” (Speaking of the proposed NL Midwest.) Uh, Jim? You base that declarative statement on what authority, exactly? Or: “…teams will have to watch what they spend on payroll, because if they are not spending the money, they are not going to be able to be in certain divisions…” Where the hell did this guy learn his econ? Cracker Jack prize tattoos? Hey Kansas City, unless you start throwing out large wads of cash at your players, we ain’t gonna let you into the same division with the Yankees where you can get your ass kicked 25 times each season and never sniff the playoffs again!
Next, and not surprising coming from a National League guy: the DH has always been horrendous and is eradicated. Gee, Vlad says thanks, man.
And, oh! “Balanced schedule” means that all teams play all other teams the same number of times. Uh huh. The Yankees have to play the Padres the same number of times that they play the Red Sox. Sounds great for Delta Airlines. Or the Padres. Good luck with that one, Jimmie.
But then, I forget myself. It is not as though Bowden has had a storied career of success in managing baseball operations. Consider the source. But, yeah, “…at least somebody is thinking.”
We don't have a Bullpen. We have a Cowpen. Before we get to call it a Bullpen these guys gotta grow a pair.
by Stirrups on Aug 18, 2009 3:42 PM PDT reply actions 2 recs
wish
I voted yes, just because I miss the two divsions. When a team won a division title it was so much harder and sweeter.
AL West AL East
Angels Yanks
Royals Bo Sox
Twins Jays
A’s Tribe
White Sox Rays
Mariners Tigers
Wishful thinking, it will never happen.
by Ca1IFORNIA ANGELS on Aug 18, 2009 4:40 PM PDT up reply actions
You missed the
Rangers in AL West and the O’s in AL East
Angels baseball. We do what we must, because we can -- HaloDutch
I did
your right, I was just going off the top of my head, thanks.
by Ca1IFORNIA ANGELS on Aug 18, 2009 4:59 PM PDT up reply actions
If we're going to do re-alignment
Why not completely change things geographically? Imagine some of the regional rivalries with my idea:
WESTERN CONFERENCE
CALIFORNIA DIVISION
Angels
Dodgers
A’s
Giants
Padres
WESTERN DIVISION
Mariners
Rockies
Diamondbacks
Rangers
Astros
MIDWEST DIVISION
White Sox
Cubs
Cardinals
Royals
Twins
EASTERN CONFERENCE
NORTHEAST DIVISION
Yankees
Mets
Red Sox
Phillies
Pirates
NORTH DIVISION
Brewers
Tigers
Blue Jays
Reds
Indians
SOUTH DIVISION
Marlins
Rays
Braves
Nationals
Orioles
This would never happen, but except for the Western Division, every division has teams that all play close to each other.
That would be my preference
I think it would stir up more media and fan attention, and improve the competitive balance.
by California Cajun on Aug 18, 2009 5:14 PM PDT up reply actions
I like this one.
If something was to be done, I’d be cool I think with something like this.
Wishful thinking after all….
W6G!
by Monkeyspanked on Aug 18, 2009 5:23 PM PDT up reply actions
Thanks for reading guys
Yeah, it would build a ton of fan and media attention (could you imagine Angels-Dodgers, A’s-Giants, Cubs-White Sox and Yankees-Mets playing each other 18-19 times a year?)
I would think the players would like this too, less travel.
Wishful thinking indeed, but I think this would be very cool.
Sounds great, except instead of Western Conference and Eastern Conference, I’d go with Campbell Conference and Wales Conferences.
I love this team.
by Downing Rules on Aug 21, 2009 4:14 PM PDT up reply actions 1 recs
I don't think that many owners are satisfied with mediocrity
Teams that at one time could compete for pricey players no longer can.
The Pirates tried a couple of spending sprees, a new ball park, an ownership change, but they still can’t compete.
The Angels want to maintain affordability yet compete every year while at the same time meet their expenses. They compete against teams who don’t care about how high the ticket prices are because fans will pay them.
The Yankees operate on their own economic level. The Red Sox have to keep up with the Yankees or else they lose their preferential treatment by the national networks.
Some teams are mismanaged.
Bowden had a wide range of scenarios to consider, including fans who never get to see their team compete, and I think he did a doggone good job. If the Pirates can do better against outside competition than the Royals, they have a chance. If the Yankees spend $300 million yet can’t beat the Red Sox they go home and perhaps they wake up and stop the madness. Perhaps division affiliation exerts pressure on the deadbeat owner to pull his weight and compete. There are teams that don’t seem to have a fit geographically and economically like the Blue Jays and Astros. Maybe a Scott Boras is less effective in this economic environment.
by California Cajun on Aug 18, 2009 5:39 PM PDT reply actions
The Pirates and Royals
along with the Nationals make bad decisions year after year. With more money to spend, maybe they just make bigger, badder decisions. The Marlins, Rockies, Twins, and Rays (and once upon a time, the A’s) have built good teams with low payrolls. Its not that hard to figure out. Invest in baseball operations rather than over-the-hills “veterans” who do nothing more than make a 70 win team into a 72 win team. Draft well, invest in international scouting, get some sort of system and consistency in your organization (like the Angels during the Scioscia era) and those bad teams should eventually get competitive. Blaming high revenue teams for the lack of success of these poorly run organizations is nothing more than a cop out. When the Pirates trade for and then extend Matt Morris, is that really the Yankees fault? When Jim Bowden failed to capitalize on Alfonso Soriano’s big walk year by not trading him for prospects, how can he blame his low payroll for that? I think the tide is changing, however. Jim Bowden is out of the game and likely for good. Teams are hiring smarter personnel every year. Just look at last offseason. Teams are starting to properly evaluate talent, and I think we’ll see a much more level playing field in the not-so-distant future.
This is a terrible idea
There is no point to changing the alignments while we still have 30 teams. We should wait until we add two expansion teams and then create 8 four-team divisions (like the NFL) with no wild card and each division winner making the playoffs.
I like that idea too
If they go to 32 teams perhaps it can come with a 50-year moratorium on further expansion.
by California Cajun on Aug 18, 2009 7:17 PM PDT up reply actions
eliminate
KC Royals and Pitt Pirates.
Move Houston Astros to NL west move Colorado to AL west, Pick another team to go from AL to NL or vise versa to get the balanced league so everyone can play. this makes traveling better
It also gets rid of one of the 500 teams that play in the NL central (if the TX Rangers can be in the AL west why not the Houston Astros?)
It also rids the league of two teams that are perpetual loosers in cities that aren’t going to cut it as major franchises EVER!
And please spare me on the great and rich history of the Pitt Pirates, history is just that…. History. You have got to think about current times and economical factors.
Not every city deserves a franchise
Quit Bitching about Wood not playing, The guy does deserve his shot but quit pretending that we have Willie Mays riding the pine
by Sinatrasratpack on Aug 18, 2009 8:26 PM PDT reply actions
nope
Pittsburgh ballpark is the best in the majors, they have to stay.
Plus with Minny and Miami getting new parks, there is no opportunity for contraction for a long time.
We might get expansion if we can get a real good run of economic growth to get the economy better than it has ever been, but what really drives expansion is if the owners have to come up with a big chunk of change again like for collusion or something.
Fail
Just on general principles.
I recall a decade ago, when the idea was widely supported within baseball to contract the Angels, since Disney was complaining this was a “small market”. It was stated that the LA market belonged to the Dodgers, and by eliminating the Angels (and A’s or Twins), the AL would have better balance.
How things did change.
I don’t doubt the Pirates will be back, and the Royals can contend for the AL Central with just a few small adjustments.
by George Kaplan on Aug 19, 2009 4:32 AM PDT up reply actions
MLB has to commit themselves to make historical markets work
In my lifetime, the NFL has surpassed MLB in popularity and the Super Bowl has surpassed the World Series. I think one contributing factor is that Pittsburgh can compete in the NFL and can’t in MLB. The NFL considers the Green Bay Packers a national treasure and worth keeping and MLB didn’t replace the Brooklyn Dodgers. The Super Bowl is played before the kiddies have to go to bed on a school night and the World Series is not.
I think survival of the fittest puts MLB at a competitive disadvantage if you alienate yourself from historical MLB marketplaces. The Kansas City Chiefs and Pittsburgh Steelers of the NFL would love to see the Royals and Pirates flounder and ultimately fold because it further solidifies their sport as America’s Game.
What Jim Bowden has done is recognize that MLB can’t get a salary cap and revenue sharing to the degree that the NFL has and proposed a workaround. The more you make and the more you spend, the more you have to win to get into the postseason. The Yankees have to win more games than the Red Sox to compete for a championship and the Pirates have to win more games than the Royals. I started this thread because it is the only proposal out there to create competitive balance without the NFL’s salary cap.
by California Cajun on Aug 19, 2009 6:45 AM PDT up reply actions
The NFL's popularity
has more to do with the instant gratification mind set this country has adopted over the last 20 years. Baseball is “slow and boring” while the NFL has big steroid monsters bashing into each other. Baseball is more of a thinking man’s game, and unfortunately the “thinking men” in this country are getting outnumbered by the day…
I think the NFL out-hustled MLB for the #1 position on the American sports scene
The NFL has handled labor, gambling, drugs, realignment, changing times, revenue sharing, and their championship game more quickly and more efficiently than baseball has.
I also think the NFL did a better job selling their product than baseball. That’s why some people have gotten more excited about it than baseball.
Bowden’s proposal may never see the light of day, but I think it will take a big idea that hits home to catapult baseball back to the #1 position. Either that, or the NFL has to hit on hard times.
by California Cajun on Aug 19, 2009 9:49 PM PDT up reply actions
Or just
Eliminate the Pirates and the Marlins and do the adjustments I wrote about above then you have 14 and 14 teams
Quit Bitching about Wood not playing, The guy does deserve his shot but quit pretending that we have Willie Mays riding the pine
by Sinatrasratpack on Aug 18, 2009 8:27 PM PDT reply actions
Didn't someone mention that the Marlins are playing .500 ball, and not just this year?
THIS… IS… ANAHEIM!!
Nats are kind of better canidates.
#34 Forever
Plugging the upside since 2006.
Never give up, never surrender!
One problem with your logic here:
I think the Angels would get more attention nationwide if in the same division with the Dodgers and Giants because other than the A’s they are isolated with no other AL team West of the Rockies. A disadvantage is that if you balance out the schedule that leaves only 5.8 games per opponent in a 162-game schedule.
Aren’t the M’s west of the Rockies? Just sayin’.
#34 Forever
Plugging the upside since 2006.
Never give up, never surrender!
this entire thread makes my head hurt...
i best call my girlfriend.
Do it for Nick '09
by BryanHarvey'sMoustache on Aug 19, 2009 1:47 PM PDT reply actions
If the AL would gain 2 teams...
…if you support expansion that is…where would you put them?
If you look at U.S. Census data, there are a few regions in the country that might support a team. San Antonio is a huge market, as is Jacksonville (FL), Nashville, Las Vegas, Charlotte, Portland, and Oklahoma City, in addition to a few others that are possibilities.
San Antonio could absolutely support a team, but even with the successes the Florida teams have had, I highly doubt Florida should or would get another team should expansion ever occur. The East and Central time zones already have an abundance of teams, so I’d prefer to see a team added in Las Vegas or Portland. Would baseball want to be that close to THE gambling epicenter of the world? Portland was at least considered when the Expos were vacating Montreal, and a smaller downtown ballpark to replace the AAA stadium might be a good option.
In Remembrance of Nick Adenhart, Courtney Stewart, Henry Pearson. Heal soon Jon Wilhite.
I want Andrew Thomas Gallo to be a pinata, and the Angels supply the bats...
Oh, and W6G.
Jacksonville, Nashville, Las Vegas, Charlotte, Portland and OK City
Could be good choices. But if I remember correctly, aside from Portland and Virgina, that the Expos were considering Monterey Mexico. I think a team in Mexico might create a buzz internationally. Not that Mexico is the epic center of baseball, or anything, but it would certainly be interesting.
I agree that Florida probably couldn’t sustain another baseball franchise.
RIP Nick Adenhart 4/9/09
I blog about the Angels at The Diamond Aces
The Expos played in San Juan, Puerto Rico too
a few seasons back, but they would need a much better stadium than Hiram Bithorn. I like the idea of international expansion, but Mexico City would still be quite a long shot for now. It definitely has the population and it could have the resources to build a stadium, but I just can’t see it being a legitimate possibility at this stage. But you’re right, it would definitely be interesting to see if they could convince MLB that they deserve a team. As long as the Mexico City Red Devils (or Diablos Rojos del Mexico) don’t play in the AL West…
In Remembrance of Nick Adenhart, Courtney Stewart, Henry Pearson. Heal soon Jon Wilhite.
I want Andrew Thomas Gallo to be a pinata, and the Angels supply the bats...
Oh, and W6G.
Yes, let’s put a team in Vegas, then baeball has to lift the bans on Jackson, Weaver and Rose and let them in the HOF were they belong.
by Baylorsgroove on Aug 21, 2009 8:20 PM PDT up reply actions
I see no need for change in the current system
Some of the proposals mentioned here by HHers are workable, but Bowden’s is idiotic, as is Bowden himself.
If new teams are to be added, it seems to make sense that they be added in the west, and I agree with Slasher52 that Portland and Las Vegas are prime candidates. But I can’t see this happening for several years at least.
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