Called Strikes Vs. Nick Green's Ball Four
Check out these photos of different pitches the Umpire called strikes earlier in the game, compared to the ball four on Nick Green.
4 months ago
halofan1
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Quit your bitching
I thought this was SB Nation, not some sort of gathering for women who are on their period.
I didn't like the old one very much. I didn't see the ball there very well. - Julio Lugo on the old Yankees Stadium.
by Charged on Sep 17, 2009 12:53 PM PDT reply actions 0 recs
Great point
Well presented and clearly exhaustively researched. Please add me to your mailing list sir.
Truth hurts?
by ReggieBullits on Sep 17, 2009 12:56 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
Truth hurts?
No, not really. We have had many losses to inconsistent ump calls and such, but we don’t sit around and bitch about it all day as if it’ll change anything.
I didn't like the old one very much. I didn't see the ball there very well. - Julio Lugo on the old Yankees Stadium.
by Charged on Sep 17, 2009 1:02 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
Charged=Classy fan fail...
They want power, We want respect...
by SenorChuckles on Sep 17, 2009 1:25 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
It takes a new level of 'pathetic'
when sports fans so easily subscribe to the stereotypes assigned them by diminishing reason, logic, and sound argument as the words of a “pussy” or a “whiner” or a “bitch.”
That you so willingly make yourself a walking stereotype, slinging callous, retarded, sexist euphemisms around because a fan is rightfully upset about being screwed out of a win shows what a headstrong faux-macho retard you are. It’s people like you that give all of sports a bad name by making the fans look like the neanderthal dipshits that so many believe us to be. Only a true idiot would dismiss and logically sound and well reasoned level of despondency with the crap you’re slinging.
Oh, and I’m a New York Giants fan too, so you can suck David Tyree’s dick on your way out of our thread, you stupid piece of shit.
by Caseys Kiss of Death on Sep 17, 2009 1:26 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
+1
The time is out of joint; oh cursed spite, that ever I was born to set it right.
by chairmanofthebar on Sep 17, 2009 3:15 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
Excuse me, I'm a woman and I am EXTREMELY offended.
THIS… IS… ANAHEIM!!
by opiejeanne on Sep 17, 2009 1:00 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
Just another masshole
Play Wood already. Willits sucks.
by hauldog on Sep 17, 2009 1:01 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
Actually..
I live in So Cal and I get to witness most of you retards on a daily basis. Originally from Boston, yes, but have been here for about 10 years now. I rather be a Dodger fan to be honest. Atleast they have some sort of class
I didn't like the old one very much. I didn't see the ball there very well. - Julio Lugo on the old Yankees Stadium.
by Charged on Sep 17, 2009 1:03 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
Don't let the door hit ya
Douche.
by ReggieBullits on Sep 17, 2009 1:05 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
Thats all you have to say?
Come onnn.. make fun of my accent!
Make fun of my 25+ collection of BAWSTON pink hats
Tell me how much you love Theo Epstein!
I love you Angels fans. All the same with your high school education (diploma achieved through GED though) and your endless whining. Its so adorable
I didn't like the old one very much. I didn't see the ball there very well. - Julio Lugo on the old Yankees Stadium.
by Charged on Sep 17, 2009 1:08 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
Oh I could've done all that
But resorting to stereotypes is for the feeble-minded, as you’ve so proudly displayed here today.
by ReggieBullits on Sep 17, 2009 1:11 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
I just wanted to stoop to your level during my lunch break
With that said, have a great day. Try not to think too hard. The big pile of nothing you have in your head might hurt a bit if you do..
BTW, go polish your General Education Degree. Your mountains of intelligence have just been displayed and I think you owe it to yourself to polish it as a reminder of just how smart you are.
I didn't like the old one very much. I didn't see the ball there very well. - Julio Lugo on the old Yankees Stadium.
by Charged on Sep 17, 2009 1:14 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
Maybe you can help me
Figure out how to polish paper.
by ReggieBullits on Sep 17, 2009 1:17 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
Ah sorry..
Us Bostonians with our big college degrees tend to keep them encased in a picture frame or something that protects it because we are proud of it. Now that you mention it, I could see you being totally embarrassed that Nicole Ritchie has a higher IQ.
You can always go wipe your ass with it?
I didn't like the old one very much. I didn't see the ball there very well. - Julio Lugo on the old Yankees Stadium.
by Charged on Sep 17, 2009 1:20 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
What's your problem?
No, really, what is your problem?
THIS… IS… ANAHEIM!!
by opiejeanne on Sep 17, 2009 1:21 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
I honestly don't have one
I just live around plenty of you so I know how to get under your skin.
I didn't like the old one very much. I didn't see the ball there very well. - Julio Lugo on the old Yankees Stadium.
by Charged on Sep 17, 2009 1:25 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
Aw I didn't mean to get you all worked up little man.
It’s ok buddy. Calm down. Take a deep breath and relax. Wouldn’t want you to burn the fries again.
by ReggieBullits on Sep 17, 2009 1:21 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
White trash racist immigrants work?
Play Wood already. Willits sucks.
by hauldog on Sep 17, 2009 1:26 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
You're all so cute.
Its like going to the pet store and seeing all the cute little puppies. You wanna take one home, but you know if you do, they will just chew up your furniture and piss all over your carpet. I wish I could take you all over the hump (I.E. actually beating us [inside or outside of the playoffs]) but I just cannot, as that would be a lie.
I didn't like the old one very much. I didn't see the ball there very well. - Julio Lugo on the old Yankees Stadium.
by Charged on Sep 17, 2009 1:30 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
Say what you will about the postseason
but last night’s game aside, we’ve had no problem beating you in the regular season.
Of course, I wouldn’t expect you to have your facts straight on that…what, since you probably don’t tune into baseball until mid-September anyway…and even then, only since what, 2004?
by Caseys Kiss of Death on Sep 17, 2009 1:32 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
You're absolutely right!
If only we won in 2002.. I could have had two more years of fandom like yourself!
I didn't like the old one very much. I didn't see the ball there very well. - Julio Lugo on the old Yankees Stadium.
by Charged on Sep 17, 2009 1:33 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
If only
alas, I had to deal with the pain of Jim Abbott being traded for J.T. Snow only to have him fail us in ’95, and be sent off for Allen Watson, who tore up his hand “opening a beer bottle,” and then having us trade back for Jim Abbott so he could go 2-18 for us in 1996…and watching Dave Hollins hit walk off doubles, only to nearly have a diabetic episode out on the base before he got his insulin…
or should I go on?
by Caseys Kiss of Death on Sep 17, 2009 1:36 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
Only if you like proving yourself to absolute strangers on the internet
I hear thats a good way to get raped, but I am not a rapist.
I didn't like the old one very much. I didn't see the ball there very well. - Julio Lugo on the old Yankees Stadium.
by Charged on Sep 17, 2009 1:37 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
Since that took me about 30 seconds to write
and you’re in here trying to prove something yourself…I don’t think there’s a whole lotta room for you to be talking trash about what other people do with their time.
by Caseys Kiss of Death on Sep 17, 2009 1:41 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
No, do whatever you want to your time
But proving yourself to someone you’ll never meet over something that nobody cares about is kind of sad.
I didn't like the old one very much. I didn't see the ball there very well. - Julio Lugo on the old Yankees Stadium.
by Charged on Sep 17, 2009 1:44 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
Sitting on a baseball blog of an opposing team
to taunt them with juvenile insults about their masculinity and sexuality ISN’T kind of sad?
by Caseys Kiss of Death on Sep 17, 2009 1:53 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
Uh, Charged you might want to get a life...
there not that bad actually but im a first time user ;)
They want power, We want respect...
by SenorChuckles on Sep 17, 2009 1:34 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
BUT DUDE
MY LIFE IS CONSIST OF JUST WATCHING DA SOX N PATS AND GETTIN THE LUBRIDERM OUT WHENEVER BRADY THROWS A TD OR PAPI HITS A BAWMB. N NO HE DIDNT DO STEROID!!!!!! LIFE JUST AITN FARE :(
I didn't like the old one very much. I didn't see the ball there very well. - Julio Lugo on the old Yankees Stadium.
by Charged on Sep 17, 2009 1:35 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
but dude.
you live in SoCal, its nice outside. As a matter of fact im going outside right now. Keep talking your penis isnt going to get any bigger, peace.
They want power, We want respect...
by SenorChuckles on Sep 17, 2009 1:40 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
But dude!
I have a job and I actually happen to be couped up in an office right now! Sorry I can’t mob outside and drink tall cans of monster with my bros like you. I dont enjoy that luxury :(
I didn't like the old one very much. I didn't see the ball there very well. - Julio Lugo on the old Yankees Stadium.
by Charged on Sep 17, 2009 1:41 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
You don't know stereotypes very well, do you?
Because last I checked, the stereotype is that the Angels fan base is composed of well-educated Orange County elitists…and last I checked, no one considers Dodger fans “classy.”
by Caseys Kiss of Death on Sep 17, 2009 1:27 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
what about your classic "its a 86 year curse" and "Buckners error" bitching?
your trash dude and its sad that people like you exist…
They want power, We want respect...
by SenorChuckles on Sep 17, 2009 1:28 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
How many DECADES were your great grandaddy, grandaddy, daddy, and yourself all whining?
or did you just jump on the bandwagon recently?
by Big Bad, 'Vlad'! on Sep 17, 2009 3:27 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
Then go to their board and hang out with them.
Geez. Why are you even here if you don’t like us?
THIS… IS… ANAHEIM!!
by opiejeanne on Sep 17, 2009 1:17 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
Yeah, real classy using "woman" as an epithet.
I love being a substitute for a swear word.
THIS… IS… ANAHEIM!!
by opiejeanne on Sep 17, 2009 1:18 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
You're never a swear word to me, Opiejeanne.
Angels baseball. We do what we must, because we can -- HaloDutch
by red floyd on Sep 17, 2009 4:05 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
You're kidding right?
Try this little experiment sometime..
1. Wear a Dodgers Jersey to an Angel game
2. Wear an Angels jersey to a Dodger game
3. Note the results of 1 & 2 above.
God needed a starter. RIP #34
by 3rd Echelon on Sep 17, 2009 1:41 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
Ive worn Sox jerseys to LA
Got nearly no trouble. Yet when I wore my Sox jersey to the LAAAAAAAAAA game, I got told to go “Suck a dick” after we won.
I laughed about it, but still.. that isnt very classy
I didn't like the old one very much. I didn't see the ball there very well. - Julio Lugo on the old Yankees Stadium.
by Charged on Sep 17, 2009 1:43 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
Even me and my GED can put two and two together and figure that one out.
by ReggieBullits on Sep 17, 2009 1:44 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
So basically you're an idiot
because you think wearing a Jersey to a rival team’s stadium and getting an insult hurled at you by a guy or two shows a lack of class, and then think that’s comparable to wearing your Jersey to a non-rival’s stadium (hell, it’s not even the same league), and not getting the same reaction.
Next time wear a Giants jersey, or the jersey of a team that the Dodgers fans have a reason in the world to give a shit about.
by Caseys Kiss of Death on Sep 17, 2009 1:45 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
AL NL Genius
Why would the Dodgers care about a Sux fan?
Play Wood already. Willits sucks.
by hauldog on Sep 17, 2009 1:45 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
Pointless to argue with any of you anymore
You’re all just so smart.
I’m gonna go drink Sam Adams and touch myself to my Tom Brady poster.
Good luck tonight! Oh and, don’t choke in the playoffs. Getting sick of having no competition in the first round.
Have a great day, fellas.
I didn't like the old one very much. I didn't see the ball there very well. - Julio Lugo on the old Yankees Stadium.
by Charged on Sep 17, 2009 1:49 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
That's what I'd do, too
if I made a point that I later realized was completely without merit or intelligence.
by Caseys Kiss of Death on Sep 17, 2009 1:54 PM PDT up reply actions 1 recs
And for no apparent reason, here's a picture I randomly found
by Caseys Kiss of Death on Sep 17, 2009 1:56 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
Yeah. You're football team is so much better than ours.
by adubson on Sep 17, 2009 1:57 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
16 and OHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHH
crap.
Play Wood already. Willits sucks.
by hauldog on Sep 17, 2009 1:59 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
The Giants actually are my team though
WHOA LOOK, ANOTHER PICTURE JUST APPEARED OUT OF NOWHERE:
by Caseys Kiss of Death on Sep 17, 2009 2:05 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
You are an evil, evil young man.
The worst thing is the day you realize you want to win more than the players do. - Gene Mauch
by Stirrups on Sep 17, 2009 2:31 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
Looking at this makes MY knee hurt...
by sothball on Sep 17, 2009 3:47 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
I didn't notice his knee until I read your post,
and now my knee hurts.
THIS… IS… ANAHEIM!!
by opiejeanne on Sep 17, 2009 4:00 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
+1000
made my day knowing the Pats will never reach the Super Bowl again.
They want power, We want respect...
by SenorChuckles on Sep 17, 2009 4:42 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
P.S.
There was incredible offensive line holding on that play, that the ref’s ignored. Swallowed their whistle. Considering the topic of the day, ironic, is it not?
The worst thing is the day you realize you want to win more than the players do. - Gene Mauch
by Stirrups on Sep 17, 2009 2:33 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
You and Bill Simmons both allege that
and for the thousands of times I see the play again and again, I’ve never once seen it.
Maybe your boys should actually sack a man when they have him wrapped up.
by Caseys Kiss of Death on Sep 17, 2009 2:37 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
As the Rock Man says to Oblio:
“You see what you want to see and you hear what you want to hear.”
Look at 4:57. Do not take your eyes off of David Diehl, left tackle, #66 of the NY Giants. He is the offensive lineman closest to the camera, and dead center of the video at that mark. Watch him grab Adalius Thomas of the Pats, #96,and hold that grab as he uses that grip to control Thomas all the way around Manning and not let go until 5:04. That’s ONE.
Start back at the same point. Watch Rashard Moore, #63. at 4:59 he breaks free and floats to the middle and into a clearing to charge at Manning. A Giants center (#60? O’Hara?) gives him a huge bear hug and clings so strongly that Moore’s momentum pulls the lineman off his feet and he has to race back with Moore trying to get his feet back underneath him. They tussle some more, and Moore doesn’t break free from the grasp until the 5:03 mark. That’s TWO.
Go back to 4:57. Watch the Giants right guard, #69 Rich Seubert. He gets beat by #93 Richard Seymour so badly that he grabs onto him from BEHIND at the 5:00 mark and continues to hold him until Seymour breaks free of his grasp at 5:03. That’s THREE.
The worst thing is the day you realize you want to win more than the players do. - Gene Mauch
by Stirrups on Sep 17, 2009 3:52 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
I've seen and heard all of this
and there’s a reason no one has ever really complained outwardly about this…not Belichick, not the men involved, and not even really many fans…and that’s because its only a few interpretations that allow it to be called a hold.
I watched the clip a thousand times, and I’ve heard the exact claims you’ve used. Nowhere in the clip is there much evidence that Diehl is actually HOLDING onto Thomas…rather, he manipulates him with his hands by pushing him around, creating a barrier between him and Manning, forcing Thomas to try to work around him to no avail.
The only one that’s ever made any sense to be to a verifiable degree is the last one you make, and if a player breaks his grasp quickly enough (it certainly does appear to be 3 seconds of grasp), it often goes unflagged.
Of course, if you want to be technical about it, Harrison’s first physical contact with Tyree was before the ball hit his hands, so…take that for what you will.
by Caseys Kiss of Death on Sep 17, 2009 4:08 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
16-1 hhahahahahaha
"That is not how you play the game!!!" -Jack in the Box
by shaqfor3 on Sep 17, 2009 3:25 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
+1
They want power, We want respect...
by SenorChuckles on Sep 17, 2009 4:41 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
Yeah Dodger fans stabbing people in the parking lot are REAL classy...
Oh wait, that’s just one step above fans at Fenway throwing racial epithets at our black players….see GA or GMJ circa 2007…
RIP Nick Adenhart.
"When the Babe tries to call his shot, I hope Nick puts one in his ear."
--RallyMonkey5
by Clutch on Sep 17, 2009 2:02 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
hahahaha....
if you call gang stabbings in the right field bleachers while stuffing one’s face with all-you-can-eat Dodger Dogs, peanuts, between washing them down with $14 Budweisers “class”, then boy they are the local team for you!
good riddance!
"This is a guy who is a combination of great courage and, nuts!"- Steve Physioc
by Brian S (brianguy) on Sep 17, 2009 2:15 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
Why does your avatar feature Kanye West?
by XYZ123 on Sep 17, 2009 1:14 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
Its actually the RZA from the Wu Tang Clan
But way to be racist.
I didn't like the old one very much. I didn't see the ball there very well. - Julio Lugo on the old Yankees Stadium.
by Charged on Sep 17, 2009 1:15 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
How is racist?
Besides that’s not RZA. That’s Dave Chappelle.
by XYZ123 on Sep 17, 2009 1:17 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
And you're a sexist.
THIS… IS… ANAHEIM!!
by opiejeanne on Sep 17, 2009 1:19 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
Way to be a misogynist.
Damn. Now you’ll have to google “misogynist”.
by XYZ123 on Sep 17, 2009 1:21 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
Why is it pronounced "rap"?
Is the ‘c’ silent?
by XYZ123 on Sep 17, 2009 1:23 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
Fleetwood mac fan alert
R.I.P Nick
by RexTookMyStash on Sep 17, 2009 1:25 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
Yup. And the possible disciplining of Scioscia for calling a spade a spade makes it worse.
THIS… IS… ANAHEIM!!
by opiejeanne on Sep 17, 2009 1:01 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
Unbiased analysis shows that this is silly.
Here is Reed’s K-zone from last night:
http://img179.imageshack.us/img179/6850/zoneplotnphp.png
The chart clearly shows that, regardless of team, if you hit the lower quarter of the box you had about a 2/3 chance of having your strike called a ball. That was just as true for Bard, who should have been up 0-2 on Aybar and 1-1 on Abreu instead of 1-1 and 2-0 with the very same location that the pitch in question hit. All pitchers in the game did not get the low part of the box.
by Buzzy on Sep 17, 2009 1:13 PM PDT reply actions 0 recs
Did you join Halo's heaven yesterday just to post that?
R.I.P Nick
by RexTookMyStash on Sep 17, 2009 1:21 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
That strike zone graph was obviously doctored...
You can totally see the sound stage in the rear. They must have filmed this where the faked the moon landing.
R.I.P Nick
by RexTookMyStash on Sep 17, 2009 1:24 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
It's not use in trying to argue with them.
They are too smart for us Sox fans man.
I didn't like the old one very much. I didn't see the ball there very well. - Julio Lugo on the old Yankees Stadium.
by Charged on Sep 17, 2009 1:27 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
no use*
I didn't like the old one very much. I didn't see the ball there very well. - Julio Lugo on the old Yankees Stadium.
by Charged on Sep 17, 2009 1:27 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
there is clearly no argument
as you can see. I am only posting the facts that anyone with access to the Web can go look up on Brooksbaseball or any other site and see. Perhaps it might be useful information.
by Buzzy on Sep 17, 2009 1:29 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
Your graph also shows that the pitch was a strike
and completely ignores the check-swing earlier in the at-bat, too.
by Caseys Kiss of Death on Sep 17, 2009 1:30 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
check swings are always 50-50 propositions
to be fair I thought he went around. I also thought Aybar was making a transfer. Yes the ball was a strike-but the fact that 2/3 of those balls-to both teams-were strikes make it clear that this was a consistent bad problem that did not single out the Angels. As I said, Bard got hosed on 3 important strike calls (you can look them up) and all were just as much in the box as the one Fuentes got jobed on. I don’t even blink at that crap as a fan-that is the very nature of real-time human fallibility, not some sort of conspiracy.
by Buzzy on Sep 17, 2009 1:34 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
I never alleged a conspiracy
so cut out the strawman angle.
The thing is, as a hitter, the onus is on you to swing at a borderline pitch with 2 strikes…that he didn’t swing, and the umpire did not call the strike in that situation, given the magnitude, is just unacceptable. The pitch IS in the strike zone…and with no swing, in a borderline case, on a pitch he HAD already set precedent for calling a strike, to not call a strike is just an outright sham. Whether the bias is subconscious or not is irrelevant.
And check-swings aren’t 50-50. That’s what you may think, but when a player ACTUALLY does swing, I would say the call is made correctly more times than not…and when a hitter is halfway back to the dugout in self-disgust at having swung, the call is really quite simple.
by Caseys Kiss of Death on Sep 17, 2009 1:39 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
No
there is no well defined definition of a check swing. It is more of a judgement call than anything else in baseball. I don’t deny that Fuentes pitch was a strike. But I do take issue with the idea that that strike is more or less important than missed strike calls in the top part of the 9th, each to guys that got put into much better hitting positions (aslo with 2 outs) than they should have been on the very same pitch. That can chance the game just as much. The zone was bad but consistent. And you may not have called conspiracy, but half this site, Brian Fuentes and Mike Scioscia did…
by Buzzy on Sep 17, 2009 1:44 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
Fuentes and Sciscoia said no such thing
they merely alleged a level of potential conscious or subconscious influence on an umpire’s behavior. That certainly does not constitute a claim of conspiracy.
And I know there is no definition of a check swing. But when everyone in the stadium (judging by reaction), the hitter, the pitcher, the catcher, and…well, everyone but Jeff Kellogg knew it was a strike…and the hitter turned back toward the dugout in disgust, the call was already made. It was not some ‘50/50’ shot just because the rule isn’t defined…some swings are grossly apparent, and this was one of them.
And by definition a single, specific pitch not called properly that, if called properly would bring an immediate ending to the game has more impact on the outcome than a pitch that merely changed the count to favor a hitter or pitcher. Were there pitches of that type called different ways all night? Yup. But changing 0-2 to 1-1 guarantees no change in the outcome of the final score. Calling ball four to walk in a run to tie a game that was otherwise won if called properly has a direct, immediate, and final change in the outcome.
by Caseys Kiss of Death on Sep 17, 2009 1:52 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
I disagree
with all of your points, but do thank you for not shouting me down here (sincerely-I expected otherwise).
a)The claim that the umps are unduely influenced by the “mystique” of Fenway, etc, is what I am talking about. The K-zone show no such thing. It shows that Reed called that pitch as he called the majority of those pitches to both teams. If he did otherwise, you could make the arguement just as clearly the otherway-that the ump is changing his strikezone based on situation.
b)I simply don’t think calls should be made by players or fans reactions. Did Green go around? I think he did, but as I said check swings are a complete judgement call. If that is the only claim of bias, well, there is nothing I can say.
c)As for the outcome issue-I think it reasonable that if that is a ball early in the game, it is a ball late in the game. Who knows what happens in the top 9th if the calls go the otherway, but would it be fair to call them balls for Bard and strikes for Fuentes?
by Buzzy on Sep 17, 2009 2:00 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
I wasn't using Green's reaction
as reason for the call to be made a certain way, but rather just as evidence of the completely obvious nature of the call.
The point of the matter on the pitch is the circumstance…precedent had already been established that Fuentes’ pitch COULD be called a strike (and had been, as the original post in this thread shows)…and when you have the bases load of a 1-run game in the bottom of the 9th inning, and you’re at the plate, and you don’t swing at a pitch as close as that (nevermind that it actually IS a strike by definition), the burden has always been on the hitter…he HAS to go on that pitch. Period. Call it an unfair burden if you will, but that’s baseball…you force Green to tell you the truth, and he’s going to tell you just this: he didn’t NOT swing at that pitch because he thought it was ball four. He didn’t swing because he was buckled by the pitch. It was pretty obvious just watching.
We can only speculate as to what an 0-2 count means instead of a 1-1 count. What we DO know, however, is that a bases loaded walk in a one-run game does have an immediate, irreversible impact.
by Caseys Kiss of Death on Sep 17, 2009 2:09 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
It is also baseball
to be granted a fixed strikezone regardless of count, team or technical definition of a strike (all umps have different zones). I think that one superceeds the one that says if it close you have to swing.
by Buzzy on Sep 17, 2009 2:11 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
And
every play has an irreversible impact-it is simply easier to say what that is in the Green case. Remember however, that that merely tied the game, it did not win it for the Sox.
by Buzzy on Sep 17, 2009 2:13 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
The irreversibility of the call
is not about the call giving the Red Sox the win…it’s that it took AWAY an at-that-moment, guaranteed Angels win.
It is easier to say in the Green case because it was an at-bat (well, technically plate-appearance ;-) ) ending call made. Even in your other examples, had the call been otherwise made, the at-bat would continue…strike or ball, those pitches did not have the capacity to end an at-bat unless offered at by the hitters. And all poor calls are just plain and simply not created equally. A poor call early in the game allows for recourse later in the game. A safe call at first when a man was out that is erased by a double play immediately after is not the same as, say Derek Jeter having a flyout turn into a home run because an umpire couldn’t see a 12 year old reach over a wall.
This is the case with an 0-1 ball/strike call to Aybar compared to a 3-2 ball/strike call made with the bases load and 2 outs.
by Caseys Kiss of Death on Sep 17, 2009 2:18 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
No, but given that it WAS a strike
had been called a strike before, and was a close pitch that decided a game, it’s really rather unforgivable to miss the call just because your hadn’t really been consistent with it earlier in the night. Even as your graph proves…had he called ball four a strike (which, per the MOST IMPORTANT factor, the rule book, was a strike), it would have been in line with other calls of the night. There were Angels on the receiving end of low strike calls too…Bard wasn’t the only one squeezed.
by Caseys Kiss of Death on Sep 17, 2009 2:14 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
And as an aside
not that I’m claiming there to be a conscious level of decisive bias in these particular contests, but I have to say I’m a little perplexed by you so easily dismissing the claim.
In the age of Tim Donaghy, and given the potential gains at stake for those who skirt the rules, I don’t think it’s very well-advised to so quickly laugh off accusations of bias. I, for one, find the corruptibility of an official in ANY capacity to be totally believable.
by Caseys Kiss of Death on Sep 17, 2009 2:12 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
You miss the point.
the check swing aside, the K-zone evidence clearly does refute the claim on the part of Reed. His zone was crappy but consistent-no low strike. That cannot be refuted. That is a fact.
As for the check swing-I agree, it is entirely possible that the first base umpire did not have the balls to end the game on a check swing. I am sure I would not like that as a fan of the Angels, but that is not unique to Fenway. I think that crap happens all over for home teams.
by Buzzy on Sep 17, 2009 2:17 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
What the graph shows is not consistency at all
I’m pretty sure I can identify which of those pitches was the one to Green (right on the -0.5 axis), and while as a uniform statement, you can say that ‘many low pitches in the strike zone were called balls,’ I can point out that SIX pitches below it were called strikes on the night, and only one that was higher (while in the zone) was called a ball…with one pitch at equal height also called a ball.
But to clarify…does ‘ana-called strike’ mean it was a called strike for an angels pitcher, or for an angels hitter?
by Caseys Kiss of Death on Sep 17, 2009 2:24 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
?
consistency is a statistical statement-if not we would not be talking about humans. Consistency in this regard means-“was there a greater than 50% chance that a pitch in the box from 1 to 1/2 is actually called a ball?” There are 8/3 ball/K ratio for squares and 7/3 for triangles. That is statistically the same, and show that there was more than a 66% chance that Reed calls that pitch a ball. There is simply no evidence to the contrary, and there is no way to argue around it. The evidence is clear that for whatever reason he likes to call that a ball.
What you are arguing for is a blueprint for bias. Chage you rules depending on the situation. I don’t see how you don’t see that. Anyway-enjoy the game and the rest of the season (gotta run home for dinner). This game meant nothing to eather team at this point, and the Angels have a hell of a good team-looks better to me than last year by a fair bit, despite the recent offensive glitch.
by Buzzy on Sep 17, 2009 2:37 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
Unless you show me a statistical sampling
across all of baseball that shows that umpiring consistency is defined as anyone who make a call a certain way 66% of the time, I question your definition of consistency.
Consistent is an abstract, subjective word in this context. That’s my qualm with it. When something is called a way 33% of the time and another way 66% of the time, there is certainly ample reason to think that there isn’t a whole lot of consistency without a larger context to view it in.
But once more, above and beyond every single point made to this very moment, that is there were 4 pitches thrown during the course of that plate appearance that, per major league defined rules, were strikes. As the rules dictate 3 strikes are all that is necessary for an at-bat to end, Nick Green was out. Twice. And if that’s not ample enough reason to be upset…that two borderline calls in the most important at-bat of the game both went against a team, in a manner that cost them the game…then you must expect Angels fans to be vapid, soulless, and emotionless stiffs. Which I, for one, most certainly am not.
Further, I was not referring to any game long unfair bias from team to team. But rather that, given that Green’s pitch fell ON the -0.5 axis, and that only two pitches north of that axis were called balls (one actually is on the axis as well), and SIX pitches below it were called strikes, that there was more than enough reason to consider Fuentes’ pitch a strike.
If you want to speak in vague “low portion of strike zone” terms, it’s easier to call Green’s pitch a ‘reasonable’ ball in the context of the game. If you want to speak in more specific terms…regarding the axis the pitch actually fell on in relation to other pitches, it becomes more apparent that it was a strike.
by Caseys Kiss of Death on Sep 17, 2009 2:45 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
OK
let’s make it simple: is there anything that you see in Reed’s zone that makes the call to Fuentes look inconsistent with regard to either team? Is there any evidence in that box of a biased call? If so-please tell me. He called 6/21 of pitches in the lower quarter of the box for strikes and an equal proportion of them for each team. Perhaps that is inconsistent, but it is equally inconsistent to both teams. You can’t claim that if that were not the last pitch of the most important at bat this wouls be an issue at all. Thus, again, it is the situation, not the call, nothing in the data suggests at all that there was bias.
Tonight already we have seen 2 consecutive “check” swings on the same at bat that were as full as Green’s was and they were both called non-swings. Since it was the second inning, no one cares, but the fact is it also illustrates how strange this disucssion is-calls are blown all the time and in all directions in baseball. Maybe you don’t notice them when they go your team’s way, but that is the reality.
by Buzzy on Sep 17, 2009 4:45 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
I didn't say there was necessarily bias in the call, even
merely that it was wrong, and based on the axis the pitch fell on, it was more consistently called a strike during the night than it was a ball. As I said…6 pitches below it were strikes, and only two above it were balls (or, as I pointed out, one of those two was actually on the same axis). Ergo, had there been consistency, it should have been a strike…and since it was not consistent, and it WAS a strike, you’re goddamn right I’m going to bitch about it with the rest of my fans, and I sure the hell am not going to listen to the fans on the other side lecture me on restraint when my argument is entirely within reason, and they came out the victors as a result of the blown call.
by Caseys Kiss of Death on Sep 17, 2009 5:47 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
It's not use trying to read what you just typed
R.I.P Nick
by RexTookMyStash on Sep 17, 2009 1:27 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
Actually, it IS doctored. Note the horizontal and vertical titles.
“from The Umpire’s Perspective” merely means that the true zone in real 3D space is ignored, and the graph measures what the ump should have called as a zone, as an artifact of where they should park their eyeballs.
“Normalized Vertical Location” is a euphemism for the programmer’s human bias as to what should constitute the upper and lower range of the zone. Sometimes this is adjusted per batter and sometimes it is just a fixed number of inches. Even if the programmer used high def imaging from the front side of every batter and was able to adjust the upper/lower limits of the zone in his/her video tracking system, there is no empirical law which mandates that the programmer’s setting equates to teh MLB rule book.
But, hey, it’s an intimidatingly large amount of cool data, so it must ro right, yes?
The worst thing is the day you realize you want to win more than the players do. - Gene Mauch
by Stirrups on Sep 17, 2009 1:35 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
are you on something?
that is a lot of words to basically make an incorrect statement. Go look up the methodology. The baslines need to be adjusted to player height, etc. It is the same technology that any K-zone uses. Go on thinking that this is doctored, the league has it out for your team, and the moon landing was faked.
by Buzzy on Sep 17, 2009 1:38 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
"The baselines need to be adjusted to player height, etc."
You just concured with my statement, which you claim is incorrect.
Having to ajdust the baselines is the precise problem. And an incomprehensibly bad failure of basic logic to boot. The idea that one can use technology to validate and/or challenge a human judgement call, when the tool itself is subject to adjustments that are conducted by humans and equally challenged by human judgement, is the technological equivalent of using a word in its own definition.
The ONLY way to create a correct and human-factor free methodology is to place visual or electronic markers on the player uniforms that match the precise language of the rule book and can be read by the technology. I have read two methodolgies about this stuff and inquired on the Beyond The Boxscore site and, of course, no such non-human precision is used.
The worst thing is the day you realize you want to win more than the players do. - Gene Mauch
by Stirrups on Sep 17, 2009 1:53 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
Fuck all that
then what are we supposed to do when this technology becomes self-aware and begins to launch preemptive attacks on all our key military installations?
by Caseys Kiss of Death on Sep 17, 2009 1:55 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
After reviewing all personnel files...
I have selected you to serve, as long as you cooperate, as my link to your species.
The worst thing is the day you realize you want to win more than the players do. - Gene Mauch
by Stirrups on Sep 17, 2009 2:59 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
I don't understand
the baseline is if the ball crosses at the top of the knees or line below the letters as the ball passes any part of the plate. Any digital program can do that for each player. It is not subjective and it is not “doctored”-it is done blindly for both teams. Are you suggesting otherwise? If so-than what is a strike?
by Buzzy on Sep 17, 2009 2:02 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
Where is "below the letters" on a batter 5'4" with a deep crouch?
Where is “below the letters” on a batter 6’1" with an upright stance?
The answer is not the same thing for these two batters.
So when the shorter batter steps to the plate, some THING has to know to adjust the top of the strike zone appropropriately lower. And when the taller batter steps to the plate, some THING has to know to adjust the top of the strike zone appropriately higher.
You have three choices:
1) use a completely mechanical solution that can adapt in real time, such as reflectors or electronic sensors attached to the unis by MLB officials, at pain of suspension should they be moved;
2) use a human being to make the adjustments manually as each batter comes to the plate;
3) do like they do at BTBS, and come up with a fixed upper and lower limit based on some preferred method for averaging.
Option #2 is subject to human interpretation, which is teh exact same thing as the ump behind the plate. Option #3 will always result in errors at the upper and lower limits of the zone because those limits differ in real space between batters.
The worst thing is the day you realize you want to win more than the players do. - Gene Mauch
by Stirrups on Sep 17, 2009 2:56 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
What's NOT silly is that there were 2 crucial in this AB.
The first crucial call was on the 3rd pitch. Green checked his swing…his body language after the swing indicated he has gone around for strike 3. For for the umpires to keep some semblance of fairness – after all, the appearance of fairness is critical to them being viewed as impartial – the 9th pitch SHOULD have been called strike 3. It wasn’t. That represent a real failure on the part of the crew to project an image of fairness by splitting the borderline calls towards both teams.
Add the non-out on Aybar transferring the ball on the DP attempt, and you can easily emerge with a view that the umpires showed greater partiality toward the Sox on borderline calls.
by sothball on Sep 17, 2009 3:54 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
It must irk the Sox fans to know they couldn't win last night without the assistance of the officiating crew
why else would they all get so worked up enough to join HH en masse to come over and rebut our claims of poor work by the umpires?
by Caseys Kiss of Death on Sep 17, 2009 1:31 PM PDT reply actions 0 recs
I really dont care about last night
Just sick of hearing you ignorant children make snotty comments from mommy’s computer.
I didn't like the old one very much. I didn't see the ball there very well. - Julio Lugo on the old Yankees Stadium.
by Charged on Sep 17, 2009 1:32 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
At least our stereotypes make sense
what are you, 16 years old? Seriously, who still throws out the “get off mom’s computer” insults? Have your balls even dropped yet, child?
by Caseys Kiss of Death on Sep 17, 2009 1:33 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
Then stop coming over here
Dense man, dense!
by ReggieBullits on Sep 17, 2009 1:34 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
By being a member of an SBN site
you can already post on any other.
by Buzzy on Sep 17, 2009 1:36 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
You actually have to add each blog to your account individually
but hey, who’s counting?
by Caseys Kiss of Death on Sep 17, 2009 1:40 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
+1
viva le douche
"This is a guy who is a combination of great courage and, nuts!"- Steve Physioc
by Brian S (brianguy) on Sep 17, 2009 2:19 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
Internet Tough Guy Rollcall
R.I.P Nick
by RexTookMyStash on Sep 17, 2009 1:34 PM PDT reply actions 1 recs
As a consistently and publicly declared fan of the New England Patriots since 1973...
…this is why I hate my fellow Pats fans. And I have been a fan longer than most of these trolls have been wasting perfectly good oxygen on this planet.
The worst thing is the day you realize you want to win more than the players do. - Gene Mauch
by Stirrups on Sep 17, 2009 1:37 PM PDT reply actions 1 recs
Russ Francis ?
Willie Mays Aikens is FREeeeeeeee
by Angel Aviator on Sep 17, 2009 2:34 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
Made a better Niner
Play Wood already. Willits sucks.
by hauldog on Sep 17, 2009 2:35 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
MLB pretends their umpires are as infallible as the pope
But seriously, how can this be defended?
Rick Reed was not consistently letting the low strike go, he was consistently being inconsistent with over one-fourth of the strike zone. Not a questionable borderline pitch here or there, but a randomly defined lower boundary. Pitchers were basically rolling the dice on a pitch at the knees. And that should not happen. MLB has equipment in every ballpark to check this. How Rick Reed is considered a professional is beyond me—-this would get a volunteer ump in a JV league booted. But I guess volunteers don’t have a union.
by Suboptimal on Sep 17, 2009 2:31 PM PDT reply actions 0 recs
Pretty damn sure the green triangle on the -0.5 axis is the pitch to Green, too
which would make it higher than six pitches previously called a strike, and lower than two pitches called a ball.
by Caseys Kiss of Death on Sep 17, 2009 2:49 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
And even if it's the green square, it's in the exact same location as one pitched called a strike
and on the same exact vertical axis as four called strike and two called balls, while still above another two called strikes.
by Caseys Kiss of Death on Sep 17, 2009 2:52 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
Triangles are pitches thrown by Angels pitchers.
Let's do this for Nick Adenhart, Courtney Stewart, and Henry Pearson.
by AlanFalcon on Sep 17, 2009 3:00 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
Meaning I was right the first time?
In which case, my level of anger is justifiable.
by Caseys Kiss of Death on Sep 17, 2009 3:37 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
Indeed.
Let's do this for Nick Adenhart, Courtney Stewart, and Henry Pearson.
by AlanFalcon on Sep 17, 2009 3:44 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
The simple fact of the matter is that the Angels should've walked away with a victory.
I’ve seen Boston fans all over the internet saying the same thing. YES, the Angels didn’t play all that great. YES, Fuentes sucks. YES, there were some bad defensive plays by the Halos. But the umps made two horrible calls at the end of the game that handed Boston the victory.
The time is out of joint; oh cursed spite, that ever I was born to set it right.
by chairmanofthebar on Sep 17, 2009 3:27 PM PDT reply actions 0 recs
fact of the matter
Remy on the NESN broadcast thought Green was out twice, but the big picture is, there is another game tonight. I’m sure the Boston media was doing their part all day today trying to fan the flames from last night, it’s what they do and have had lots of practice. So rather than focusing on what they should they are left to talk about the umps all day. Just win the the next one.
by 1970cs on Sep 17, 2009 3:35 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
don't leave 28 peeps on base...
Adenhart 1986-2009
by cupie on Sep 17, 2009 3:38 PM PDT reply actions 0 recs
Of the 14 TEAM LOB's ...
9 of those were left in scoring position!!!
By contrast, the Sox left 3 out of their 10 in scoring position.
I love this team.
by Downing Rules on Sep 17, 2009 3:45 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
Really?
Who is worse…the team that leaves 28 on base, or the team that plays so poorly it can’t beat the team that left 28 on base?
Blaming this on the Angels is just plain wrong. They made mistakes. So did Varitek when he let a passed ball turn into four runs. So did Ellsbury when he misplayed Juan’s deep fly. So did the Boston bullpen when it gave back the lead every time they retook it. So did Nick Green when he struck out twice in one at-bat without striking out.
Both teams fucked up repeatedly. The only difference in the end was one team was bailed out by bad calls and the other one was not.
by Caseys Kiss of Death on Sep 17, 2009 3:51 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
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