mlbtraderumors outlines 3rd base trade market

Figgins for Kaz is an idea worth exploring.

    If nothing else materializes in regards to 3B and leadoff, why not look at it. Last year was by far his worst season, it is highly likely that he will bounce back. I find this even more likely if he was to ‘come home’ .
   Yes , his playoff performances are for the most part forgettable (he did hit .333 in 08), but so are many of our regulars (Jaun Rivera, HK, and Aybar come to mind). Will his struggles continue, or will he turn the corner?
   Kazmir is a 5th starter at best, and his contract is not desirable. Swapping for Figgy coulld benefit the M’s as well. They lack starting pitching depth, and I doubt they would be sad to see Figgy go.
   Who else do we have for leadoff? Figgin’s 09 leadoff #‘s are probably top 3 in Halo History. Do we really want to see Aybar or a declining Abreu in that position? It’s too early for Bourjos, and Willits is not a viable long term option.
    Let’s say Figgy has another poor season. Exchanging his for Kaz’s is still an upgrade.
2010 WAR (BR), Figgy: 1.3, Kaz: -1.0
    Not to mention, he could always return to his original super-utility mold. He still stole 42 bases, walked 74 times. Not to mention he played on a terrible offensive Mariner’s team.
    It may not be the answer, but it very well could be.

by Wally's World on Oct 18, 2010 2:23 PM PDT reply actions

I haven't been a fan of bringing back Figgy when it has been suggested before, but if the Mariners would make that trade for some reason, I would do it.

I don’t think they would do it though.

by ~MMP~ on Oct 18, 2010 2:38 PM PDT reply actions

Not in love with the idea of paying Figgins 35 million dollars over the next 4 years though

by ~MMP~ on Oct 18, 2010 2:51 PM PDT up reply actions

No. No. No. Fuck no.

One of the MAJOR reasons that sometimes you have to swallow your heart and say goodby to a homegrown player you love, is because somewhere out there is a jackass team that will overpay for said player. You can’t blame the player for chasing the pot of gold, but you can shake your head at the sheer stupidity of the owner willing to blow up the marketplace for your player.

Taking Figgy back means agreeing to be the stupid party. And it takes the initial stupid party off the hook. Why would you want to do Seattle any such favor?????

"Wastin away again in Minor-Leaguer-Ville..."

by Stirrups on Oct 18, 2010 3:21 PM PDT reply actions 4 recs

You are correct sir.

Peter Bourjos is faster than anyone on your team.

by 44FAN on Oct 18, 2010 4:47 PM PDT up reply actions

How about we actually analyze the proposed trade?

In general, I agree with you that trading for Chone Figgins is not a good idea, particularly where sentiment is in any way a factor. But the proposal was not about sentiment — it was about an exchange of two burdensome contracts. We have made these types of trades before (for example, Mo Vaughn for Kevin Appier), and this proposal warrants a closer analysis than you gave it.

Figgins is owed $9 million next season, $9 million in 2012, and $8 million in 2013. He also has a vesting option of $9 million for 2014 that becomes guaranteed with 600 plate appearances in 2013.

Kazmir is owed $12 million next season, and he has a $13.5 million club option for 2012 that may be bought out for $2.5 million.

Comparing the two contracts, Figgins is owed $26 million over the next three seasons, with the potential to secure an additional $9 million if he plays full-time in 2013, and Kazmir is owed a minimum of $14.5 million for next season or, in the much less likely alternative where the Angels pick up his option, $25.5 million for the next two seasons. Thus, taking Kazmir’s contract as a sunk cost, which we must, the cost of Kazmir for next season ($14.5 million) is only $11.5 million less than it would cost us to have Figgins from 2011 to 2013.

The question therefore is twofold. First, which player, Kazmir or Figgins, is more likely to help the Angels next season? And second, would it be worth paying an additional $11.5 million on top of the sunk cost of $14.5 million to have Figgins in 2012 and 2013?

The first question, in my opinion, is easy. Kazmir at this point has no value to our team. We have four great or very good starters in Dan Haren, Jered Weaver, Ervin Santana, and Joel Pineiro, and we have possible fifth starters in Trevor Bell and Scott Palmer. Barring a major turnaround, Kazmir at best will match the expected performances of Bell and Palmer, and at worst will continue to perform at below-replacement level. Figgins, on the other hand, could have significant value to us at two areas of need (third base and lead-off hitter). After his abominable start, Figgins was reasonably good in the second half (.286/.349/.339). Those numbers are comparable to what he did for us in 2008. Although we cannot expect him to ever match his 2009 performance, it would not be unreasonable to expect Figgins to contribute 1.5 to 2 WAR on offense and another 1 to 2 WAR on defense. This would be very useful to the Angels next season given the terrible performances of Wood at third base and Aybar at lead-off.

If we can agree that Figgins would be more valuable to the Angels than Kazmir next season, then the question is whether it would be reasonable to pay Figgins an additional $11.5 million beyond the sunk cost of $14.5 million to have him on the team for 2012 and 2013. This means $5.75 million, which is approximately what he made for us in 2009, in both 2012 and 2013. If Figgins can be a 2-3 WAR player, as we have projected, then the additional expense is justifiable, especially given the organization’s lack of quality depth at third base. Some further discounting of the trade is necessary in light of Figgins’ vesting option for 2014. That option will only vest, however, if Figgins is healthy and at the top of the order in 2013. In that case, the additional cost over the $14.5 million sunk cost for 2011 would be $20.5 million for three seasons (i.e. $6.8 million per year from 2012 to 2014). Although this scenario is more expensive, it is still a reasonable cost to pay for a 2-4 WAR third baseman and lead-off hitter.

In sum, rather than just dismissing the idea as “stupid,” I would suggest taking a closer look at the proposed trade. You might find that it actually could, and likely would, be to the Angels’ benefit to trade Kazmir for Figgins.

by Brody on Oct 19, 2010 9:02 AM PDT up reply actions 2 recs

who is Scott Palmer?

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by 2pintsofbooze on Oct 19, 2010 9:52 AM PDT up reply actions

Whoops

Sorry Rosie. I guess Scott Palmer would be the lovechild of Matt Palmer and Scott Kazmir.

by Brody on Oct 19, 2010 10:40 AM PDT up reply actions

just messin with ya

thought it was funny since your comment was so long and thought out that you didn’t get his name right.

:p

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by 2pintsofbooze on Oct 19, 2010 11:22 AM PDT up reply actions

It's not that you don't make good points

It’s just that I would prefer the Angels to finally have a real, prototypical 3rd baseman for the first time in years. Figgins worked well there with his skillset, but that appears to be in decline. Give me someone who plays great D and can change games with one swing of the bat.

Scioscialist Party of America - Redistributing your defense since 2000.

by Commander_Nate on Oct 19, 2010 11:29 AM PDT up reply actions

I agree with that

If we can sign Adrian Beltre or trade for a top-tier third baseman, I am all for that. I just do not want us to have a complete void at third base like we did this season. Figgins is better than our in-house options, and Kazmir right now is just a $14.5 million price tag.

by Brody on Oct 19, 2010 12:44 PM PDT up reply actions

That is why I say

we move Morales to 3B and leave Naps at 1B. Then we’d have prototypical power in both corners. Then we can focus on getting Crawford or a better DH.

Trust the Deception

by Rally Manatee on Oct 19, 2010 3:10 PM PDT up reply actions 1 recs

thought you've been saying

that Nap should move to 3rd?

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by 2pintsofbooze on Oct 19, 2010 4:22 PM PDT up reply actions

I've been saying this as well

but who would be better at 3B, Morales or Napoli?

by angelsownredsux on Oct 19, 2010 8:26 PM PDT up reply actions

Maybe my idea wasn't a great one

but it’s certainly no worse than your continued insistence that Kendry move to third base. You realize the organization spent years grooming him to be an adequate first basemen, right? Now, coming off a broken leg, he is supposed to learn a brand new position, one that would require much more movement on that leg than first base?

And yes, I realize he played every position on the field in Cuba. Well, that’s just great, but it doesn’t mean shit in the major leagues. I remember Scioscia specifically talking about how raw Kendry was when he first arrived and how much work they had to do with him on fundamentals, etc.

Maybe had they moved him to third in the minors he may have been adequate there eventually. But they didn’t, which should speak volumes to his limitations in the field and why it’s an even worse idea now.

by dmhead on Oct 20, 2010 8:57 AM PDT up reply actions

Your points are well-made, but...

If moving Kendry to third means having him and Napoli play every day, I think that bodes well for a much more potent offense. Obviously, if we trade for Beltre, then that plan is not necessary. Then it’s back to Kendry at first, and Nap platooning between catcher, first, and DH.

A wise man does not need advice and a fool won't take it.

by angelslogic on Oct 20, 2010 9:06 AM PDT up reply actions

3

That’s that total number of games Kendry has at third in the States, all during his stay in Rancho in 2005. Now six years later he moves across the diamond at the major league level on a freshly repaired broken leg?

by dmhead on Oct 20, 2010 9:52 AM PDT up reply actions

we can't trade for Beltre he's a free agent

by angelsownredsux on Oct 21, 2010 10:43 AM PDT up reply actions

Well, we could, but we'd be incredibly dumb to do so.

Angels baseball. We do what we must, because we can -- HaloDutch

by red floyd on Oct 21, 2010 3:30 PM PDT up reply actions

Of course the two ideas are not necessarily incompatible.

The Angels could sign Beltre to play third base, and opt out of competing with Boston/New York/etc/etc in the Crawford race, and just have Figgins play leftfield.

Figgins in left field would probably be something on the order of Podsednik/Pierre in a typical year, and DeJesus in a good year. He would play there for a year or two and then assume a super-ute role for the duration of his contract.

It’s not my first choice, but it’s also not a terrible option either.

by Turks Teeth on Oct 19, 2010 5:47 PM PDT up reply actions

Nope. Still Stupid.

Seattle is on the hook for $26 million to slot a guy who has hit 32HR’s in his entire career, into a field position that should yield 32 HR’s per season. By moving him out of 3B in 2010 they already admitted that that was a failed idea. And yet you want to take that mistake off of the hands of one of your immediate competitors and shackle the Halos with that liability.

Your reason for doing this is because there is no other name on the current list of Angels players that will yield 32 HR’s per season out of 3B anyway, as though this is the only list of possible solutions. And your method for reducing the cost of doing this is to dump a single year commitment to Scott Kazmir, a pitcher who – admittedly – had a sucky season but did suffer through 7 games in the back half of 2010 where his own team scored 2 or less runs behind him, and who is set up for a special conditioning and training progrm this offseason in an effort to get him back on track.

We don’t know what Figgy will be like in 2011. We don’t know what Kaz will be like in 2011. But, sure, let’s lock ourselves out of any power opportunity at 3B for the next 3 years so we can increase payroll, bail our immediate competition out of a long-term mistake of their own making (one with consequences for all other clubs in the FA market), and hand them a starting pitcher who can give you 150 innings and has made the commitment to rebuild his strength, stamina and mechanics in an effort to possibly regain an All-Star form.

I’ll take the one year exposure on Kaz as a #5 for $14mill, keep Seattle in a handcuffs, and leave myself open to the possibility of adding another $35 million to any 4 year contract for a power bat elsewhere on the roster.

"Wastin away again in Minor-Leaguer-Ville..."

by Stirrups on Oct 20, 2010 11:58 AM PDT up reply actions 1 recs

Where did this 32 HR metric for third basemen come from?

Only one third baseman hit 32 home runs last year. The rest of them did not. I do not see how we are going to find someone to do that next season.

by Brody on Oct 21, 2010 7:27 AM PDT up reply actions

It's simple phraseology. Figgins' career HR count is 32.

If his count had been 27, I would have said “…out of a position that should yield 27 HR’s per season.”

The point being that 3B is a place you put an athlete big and strong enough to hit with consistent power, because that position is one that enables a bigger, stronger athlete to be successful defensively.

It is not smart to lock yourself out of the opportunity to fill that slot appropriately. It is less smart to lock yourself out of that opportunity for long term. It is even less smart to lock yourself out of that opportunity long term for massive amounts of cash. And it is brain dead to lock yourself out of that opportunity long term, for massive amounts of cash, and rescue your immediate competitor from that same stupidity shortly after they just did it to themselves.

"Wastin away again in Minor-Leaguer-Ville..."

by Stirrups on Oct 21, 2010 8:31 AM PDT up reply actions 1 recs

How about Figgins average number of bases per season rather than his limited power

I get the obsession with home runs, they are great. But there are other skill sets that influence the outcome of a game too.
If you get 2009 figgins you get nearly 500 bases when you combine his hits with his walks and his stolen bases. THAT is more valuable than a guy who hits 25 HR but never walks and cant steal a base. Look at matsui as a perfect example. This year he hits .274 with 21 homers. But his total base count is right around 320. (The same as figgins this year by the way)

by Balls and Strikes on Oct 21, 2010 9:22 AM PDT up reply actions

Because you only get to play 9 guys at a time.

Each of those 9 slots is precious. You can put a guy like Figgy in a large number of those slots and claim that offensive productivity. But let’s take our last power productive 3B, Troy Glaus. Although he was an excellent SS during his college days, as he aged and grew and developed more power, there became fewer and fewer places you could put him in the field if you wanted to keep his bat in the lineup. 3B is one of those places that you can park a decent athlete with limited range without sacrificing defense, in order to gain access to the offense that comes with a powerful build.

So let’s use your Matsui versus Figgins example. During Matsui’s 8 years in MLB, he has averaged 25 HR’s to Figgins’ 5. Interesting what comes from that kind of production. For example, Matsui averaged 280 bases to Figgins’ 233. Matsui averaged 90 runs scored to Figgins’ 97. Matsui averaged 104 runs batted in to Figgins’ 56. Matsui’s On Base Percentage is .369 versus Figgins’ .359.

It’s great to have a guy who can get on base and has the potential to score. It’s also great to have a guy who gets on base more, and scores more often, and pushes home more players ahead of him that might already be on base. (And it is ideal when you have both!) Matsui does not do this with his legs. He does it with his bat. So how do you get slow legs and strong bat into the batting order and not create a defensive liability? You find those places in the defensive positioning that can hide lesser athletic skill. WIth Matsui, specifically, it was not 3B. But 3B is one of those precious defensive positions. You don’t have many, so you should try to use them wisely.

"Wastin away again in Minor-Leaguer-Ville..."

by Stirrups on Oct 21, 2010 10:15 AM PDT up reply actions 1 recs

Agree completely

3B is a power position. Neither Callaspo nor Figgins belong at that position, especially for 35 million. I think the Angels deserve the legitimate thirdbaseman that’s been absent for many years now.

by angelsownredsux on Oct 21, 2010 10:48 AM PDT up reply actions

not arguing with anything you're saying

just wanted to point out that there were many stories last offseason about how Kaz was doing a new conditioning program to strengthen his body and mainly his core, and that it would pay dividends during the season.

I bought into this hype, and wasted a draft pick in my fantasy baseball league. I don’t intend to fall for conditioning hype again.

so be forewarned that just because he may have a different conditioning program this offseason, there’s a good chance it won’t mean squat once the regular season starts.

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by 2pintsofbooze on Oct 21, 2010 3:03 PM PDT up reply actions

If all else fails...

then a trade for Figgins could come as a much needed improvement. maybe kazmir and wood could do it.

by angelsownredsux on Oct 18, 2010 3:32 PM PDT reply actions

Did alberto callaspo just disappear?

What do you need a fancy suit for, Charlie, you ain't got no job to wear it to.

by clover_black on Oct 18, 2010 4:41 PM PDT reply actions

We wish

BOURJOS BOURJOS BOURJOS BOURJOS

by ryanfea on Oct 18, 2010 4:54 PM PDT up reply actions

Gamel

seems a lot like Wood, but with less D and maybe less head trauma.

www.appealtoemulsion.com

by feNOMINAL on Oct 18, 2010 10:21 PM PDT reply actions

That's a bit extreme

In Wood’s minor league career he hit .284/.352/.536 with 784 SO and 297 BB in 3356 PA. Over Gamel’s minor league career he has hit .302/.376/.489 with 528 SO and 270 BB in 2665 PA. So Gamel might have less power but makes up for it with much better plate discipline. I honestly know nothing about his defense so I’ll take your word for it.

Their major league performances are more telling. In 2008 as a 23 year old Brandon hit .200/.224/.327 in 157 PA’s, by far his best major league stint. In 2009 as a 23 year old, Gamel hit .242/.338/.422 in 148 PA’s, no great shakes but by far better than any thing Wood has done at the major league level. Gamel spent most of 2010 in AAA, posting a respectable .309/.387/.511 line over 359 PA. We know all too well about Woody’s 2010 so I won’t bother.

As far as I can tell, the only reason Gamel didn’t get to start with the Brewers this season is due to their fondness for Casey McGehee (If someone with more information on Gamel and the Brewers can shed more light on this I would appreciate it). He is no longer a top prospect but to me he seems like a fair gamble to at least be average and he is young enough yet to improve. Wood’s historical suckage this season should not make us shy away from all prospects.

by dmhead on Oct 20, 2010 9:32 AM PDT up reply actions

He pulled some muscle in his back in Spring training or he would have started at the major league level is my recollection. I think he’s pretty sure to be an above average hitter. Defensively, he’s one of those guys who has the skills, but is inconsistent. He’ll dazzle you with a play, but only make 2 out of 3 routine ones. With Prince gone this off-season or within a year, his left handedness and power would make me think he won’t be shipped off without a pretty good offer.

They do seem to have a hard-on for McGehee. I like him, but they also have to find an eventual spot for Lawrie too. They’ve got a guy who would probably get a shot on most teams, Taylor Green, to fill the spot for a while.

by Salty on Oct 20, 2010 6:36 PM PDT up reply actions

No on Kaz for Figgy, and no on any of those trades.

Kazmir isn’t very valuable as a starter, but we can always move him to the bullpen where he may be better suited at this point in his career. If we trade for Figgins, on the other hand, he’s going to be clogging up our lineup regardless of what position he plays. We already have 3 or 4 or 5 mediocre third basemen, why would we add another into the mix? If we cannot legitimately UPgrade at a position, why make a lateral move? That’s what we did with Callaspo in the first place.

Plus, we already have other spots in the lineup besides 3B that are questionable next year – we got little offensive production out of LF, SS, and C (once Naps moved to 1B). We’ve got to improve in at least 2 of those positions to get back to being competitive.

None of the other guys seem like they’d fit our team either. Reynold’s power is tempting, of course. But since the Angels main offensive problem in 2010 was having too many guys like Reynolds, it wouldn’t make much sense to add another free-swinger.

Trust the Deception

by Rally Manatee on Oct 19, 2010 3:18 PM PDT reply actions

Huh?

Who is our line up was anything like Reynolds, except maybe Napoli? Of course he strikes out a ton but he’ll average 75 walks as well. That doesn’t sound like a free-swinger to me. I wouldn’t mind Reynolds, who will be 27 next season, but he simply isn’t a Mike Scioscia-type player. Although Reagins has surprised us before…

by dmhead on Oct 20, 2010 9:38 AM PDT up reply actions

211 strikeouts to lead the majors

Sounds like the lord of free swingers to me.

by angelsownredsux on Oct 21, 2010 5:26 PM PDT up reply actions

It would never happen, and it's a bad idea

Remember what we got back for GMJ? It was a bum, not a Chone Figgins-quality player.

We need to solve 3B with someone who is going to be a quality and hopefully power-hitting solution for the next several years, not someone who is going to be in expensive and light-hitting decline.

You shouldn’t waste motion on transactions that don’t solve immediate and long-term goals. With Kazmir, our goal should be a salary dump, not a salary-obligation increase; and with 3B, it should be someone like Adrian Beltre, not someone like Bip Roberts.

by mattwelch on Oct 19, 2010 5:29 PM PDT reply actions

I agree

Get rid of Kazmir and the wasted payroll even if it means getting nothing, literally nothing in return.

by mustard_man on Oct 20, 2010 6:44 AM PDT up reply actions

We already did that with GMJ, do we really want to add on another 14 million in wasted cash?

That would be near 20% of our payroll this year going to players who we are not allowing to play for our team.

There is simply no way we can win making stupid moves like this.

by Balls and Strikes on Oct 21, 2010 12:59 PM PDT up reply actions

Fair enough points

I was shooting from the hip with the Figgins trade and realize how foolish it might be. But aren’t we playing a zero-sum game here with Beltre? It’s basically either him or nothing. The guys available for trade are mostly horrible, the rest of the free agents are even worse, and there won’t be any quality third basemen on the free agent market for the foreseeable future. So we either let Boras grab us by the balls and outbid all the other teams that need a third bagger, or get creative and make a trade.

by dmhead on Oct 20, 2010 9:03 AM PDT up reply actions

Screw a trade

Arte should just take his new TV deal, buy the D-backs and merge them with the Angels.

We’ll still have Dan Haren and we’ll get Skaggs, Corbin and Colonel Saunders back…

Scioscialist Party of America - Redistributing your defense since 2000.

by Commander_Nate on Oct 20, 2010 9:41 AM PDT up reply actions 1 recs

This might be the best suggestion yet

We’d also have Reynolds at third, Kelly Johnson at second and Upton to play left! The D-Backs ballpark becomes our spring training facility and Arte can build a super-monorail from there to the Big A…

by dmhead on Oct 20, 2010 9:46 AM PDT up reply actions

This is so frustrating

MacPherson and Wood really screwed us. We have not had a prototypical third baseman since Glaus left. In his reply to me above, Stirrups suggested that a third base is “a field position that should yield 32 HR’s per season.” I have no idea where he got that from. Mark Reynolds is the only third baseman who hit 32 home runs last year. No one hit more than that. The rest all hit fewer home runs. The median for starting third basemen last year was 15 home runs.

To sum it up, third base is a position with very little talent and depth. I have my fingers crossed that we can sign Beltre, because as you said, if we do not, there may be no one else.

by Brody on Oct 21, 2010 7:34 AM PDT up reply actions

He didn't mean it literally though

He’s just inferring that the 3B position warrants power numbers as opposed to whatever Callaspo and figgins do.

by angelsownredsux on Oct 21, 2010 5:30 PM PDT up reply actions

How about this follow-up idea?

We all agree these things are quite unlikely, but what about:

Trade Kazmir AND Abreu to Seattle for Figgins. The contract cost is almost equivalent at that point, and that package has more immediate value for Seattle.

Angels still acquire Beltre to play thirdbase, but they also charge hard after a true DH like Konerko or Dunn.

Figgins plays leftfield until Trout arrives, and then becomes a super-utility player. He does NOT become the everyday thirdbaseman.

If lack of OBP and SLG are our main problems, adding Figgins, Dunn/Konerko and Beltre to the lineup ain’t a terrible vitamin for that.

by Turks Teeth on Oct 19, 2010 6:04 PM PDT reply actions

that would be a really old team, wouldn't it?

by GoHalosGo on Oct 20, 2010 9:06 AM PDT up reply actions

I have to shoot that one down

Half of Figgins value would come from his great D at third. He hasn’t played the outfield in a long time and wasn’t all that great when he did. Abreu has more value to this team as a DH than Figgins would as an outfielder.

I like playing this trade Kaz game, though! What other awful contracts out there are a match for our screwy lefty?

by dmhead on Oct 20, 2010 9:42 AM PDT up reply actions

How come the article missed...

David Wright?

"Wastin away again in Minor-Leaguer-Ville..."

by Stirrups on Oct 20, 2010 2:53 PM PDT reply actions

Chances seem very slim

the next GM comes in and trades Wright. He is the star of that franchise and “the right package” that would even get their attention would have to include Mike Trout.

by dmhead on Oct 20, 2010 3:46 PM PDT up reply actions