SB Nation Los Angeles Editor's Pick
Jim Fregosi, NOT Maury Wills, was the shortstop of the '60s
So there I was, minding my own business on Sunday morning, when the MLB Channel I had on as background noise informed me that Maury Wills was "the shortstop of the '60s." So I says to myself "Self, didn't we sponsor Jim Fregosi's Baseball Reference page with the claim that he was 'the best Major League shortstop from 1961-79'?" Since we have searchable Wins Above Replacement (WAR) on Baseball Reference now, I thought I'd quickly re-visit the topic. But first, let's compare the '60s production of Fregosi and Wills:
NM: G PA AB R H 2B 3B HR RBI SB/CS BB SO BA OBP SLG OPS+
JF: 1164 4866 4296 565 1160 171 64 88 431 69/31 450 682 .270 .340 .401 117
MW: 1507 6662 6091 874 1744 136 62 17 369 535/183 439 561 .286 .335 .337 92
Despite playing 343 fewer games, Fregosi hit more doubles, triples, and (five times as many) more home runs, drove in more runs, drew more walks, had a higher OBP and (much) higher slugging percengage. Wills played more games, hit more singles, stole waaaaay more bases, and scored more runs. And remember, they played in the same stadium for half the decade, so there's not a whole bunch of park distortions in effect.
If you take Fregosi's 8 full years in the '60s and compare them to Wills' 10 full years, you get seasonal averages like this:
NM: G PA AB R H 2B 3B HR RBI SB/CS BB SO BA OBP SLG OPS+
JF: 156 663 585 78 158 24 9 12 58 10/4 62 93 .269 .340 .402 118
MW: 151 666 609 87 174 14 6 2 37 54/18 44 56 .286 .335 .337 92
I know which guy I'd want in my lineup, but what about defense? WAR has Wills (who started the decade at 27 years old) at -1.8 for the time period; Fregosi (who started at 18 and debuted at 19) at positive 1.6.
Wills made 5 All-Star teams, won 2 Gold Gloves, and showed up in MVP voting 6 times (finishing 1st, 3rd, 11th, 17th, 17th, and 21st).
Fregosi made 5 All-Star teams, won 1 Gold Glove, and showed up in MVP voting 7 times (finishing 7th, 13th, 15th, 20th, 21st, 23rd, and 28th).
When I looked at season-by-season Win Shares in the post linked above, the results tilted decisively in Fregosi's favor. So let's similarly rank their '60s seasons best to worst, according to WAR, and see how they total out.
NM: 1.0 2.0 3.0 4.0 5.0 6.0 7.0 8.0 9.0 10.0 (total)
JF: 8.1 5.2 5.2 5.0 4.5 4.1 3.2 0.5 0.0 (35.8)
MW: 6.1 4.7 3.8 3.3 3.3 3.0 2.3 2.3 1.8 1.1 (31.7)
For comparison purposes, the most WAR by anyone in 2010 was Evan Longoria's 7.7; the top by a shortstop was Troy Tulowitzki's 5.6, and Alex Gonzales was second at the position with 3.7 (the top AL shortstop, if you can believe it, was Cliff Pennington with 3.3). Generally anything above 4.0 is a damned good All-Star caliber season, above 5.0 is great, and above 6.0 gets you into the MVP conversation. WAR re-confirms to me that Fregosi was the shortstop of the '60s.
Here's a list of all Major League shortstops who put up at least 10 WAR during the 1960s. In order, that's Fregosi, Wills, Luis Aparicio, Dick McAuliffe, Ron Hansen, Dick Groat, Denis Menke, Rico Petrocelli, Leo Cardenas, Gene Alley, Bert Campaneris, Eddie Bressoud, Zoilo Versalles, and Tony Kubek:
JF: 35.8
MW: 31.7
LA: 30.3
DM: 28.3
RH: 23.4
DG: 21.2
DM: 20.7
RP: 20.3
LC: 18.0
GA: 16.3
BC: 14.3
EB: 14.1
ZV: 13.3
TK: 10.0
And just for fun, here's a list of top shorststop WAR by decade, with everyone matching Fregosi's '60s total listed, as well as some other players of interest:
2000s: Derek Jeter (46.2), Miguel Tejada (37.5) ... David Eckstein 12th (20.0), Orlando Cabrera 14th (17.2) ... 23 total
1990s: Barry Larkin (51.7), Cal Ripken (41.3) ... 19 total
1980s: Alan Trammell (50.1), Cal Ripken (47.8), Ozzie Smith (44.7) ... Dickie Thon 6th (17.4), Dick Schofield 11th (10.2) ... 11 total
1970s: Bert Campaneris (31.1) ... 13 total
1960s: Fregosi (35.8) ... 14 total
1950s: Ernie Banks (43.2) ... 13 total
1940s: Lou Boudreau (53.0), Luke Appling (36.5), Pee Wee Reese (34.6) ... 12 total
1930s: Arky Vaughn (52.3), Joe Cronin (48.8) ... 13 total
1920s: Joe Sewell (39.5) ... 8 total
1910s: Art Fletcher (39.2) ... 12 total
1900s: Honus Wagner (91.6), Bobby Wallace (42.6), George Davis (42.0) ... 8 total
From 1961, Fregosi's rookie season, until his retirement in '78, here are the top seasons recorded by a shortsop:
1) 9.3 Rico Petrocelli 1969
2) 8.1 Jim Fregosi 1964
3) 7.0 Jim Fregosi 1970
Maury Wills' 1962 (6.1) checks in at 10th, and his second-best year ranks 25th. Fregosi has slots #18, 19, 21, 31, and 45. Nobody else had 2 of the top 10 seasons, no one else had 4 of the top 20, 5 of the top 30, 6 of the top 40, or 7 of the top 50.
Finally, what does WAR say about my original, slightly more expansive claim that Fregosi was the best Major League shortstop between 1961 and 1979? If you rank just by total WAR, he still beats Bert Campaneris -- who played 230 more games -- by a nose.
Look, it's our 50th anniversary season now. A half-century is just about long enough to accept playing second fiddle to second-rate (though still high quality) Dodgers. Consider this the first in a sporadic offseason series in which historical Angel snubs are treated with the fact-checking they deserve.
This Fan-Post is authored by an independent fan. Tell us what you think and how you feel.
52 comments
|
4 recs |
Do you like this story?
Comments
Awesome post, Matt
But because he didn’t play in “Los Angeles” or New York, he didn’t get much consideration.
Witty .sig goes here.
There is not a doubt in my mind
if Fregosi had played his entire career in NY, he’d be in the Hall. Wils may have had a bigger impact on the game because he was the first big base stealer of the nmodern era, but I’d take Jim on my team over any other SS of the 60’s/70’s hands down.
Thanks Matt
I must not fear. Fear is the mind-killer.
Thanks, though I don't think he would have made the Hall under any circumstances
Not many ’Famers are essentially done as full-time players after age 28.
Very nice analysis.
I was starting to get down on Fregosi too and thought he wasn’t all he was cracked up to be (and did he really deserve his number being retired?)—but this thoroughly put me right. I just hope he gets more recognition now!
Light up that halo! RIP, Nick.
Even in my Dodger crazy neighborhood
Jim Fregosi was the man.
I cried when the Angels traded him.
Knoop - Fregosi - Mincher...4-6-3 double play!
Yeah, and I can't believe the p-ss-poor return they got for him too
What the heck kind of name is “Nolan” anyway? That guy never amounted to anything.
Light up that halo! RIP, Nick.
by Clutch on Oct 5, 2010 12:01 AM PDT up reply actions 1 recs
Honus Wagner's WAR?????
91.6???
That’s some funny shit.
dissenter, dubious and devil's advocate to blog monitors everywhere.
by BryanHarvey'sMoustache on Oct 4, 2010 10:29 PM PDT reply actions
dude was a monster...
of course, it was during a time where pitchers usually didn’t have more than one pitch but whatever…
dissenter, dubious and devil's advocate to blog monitors everywhere.
by BryanHarvey'sMoustache on Oct 6, 2010 6:27 AM PDT up reply actions
I went to three Dodger games this season
and they rolled out old Maury in two of them. He looks more well-preserved than Lasorda… I guess cocaine is a helluva drug, eh Maury?
just wanna test out posting a pic. never done it before.
by (!ts_a_C.A._thing) on Oct 5, 2010 1:11 AM PDT via mobile reply actions
ooooh yeah!!
Nice, now I know how to do it. Hopefully I can make a new one for 2011. Come on Moreno bump our salary up to 140 mill and let’s be champs next year!
by (!ts_a_C.A._thing) on Oct 5, 2010 1:14 AM PDT via mobile up reply actions
made this too!
I know there’s not gonna be much traffic on here for a while so I’ll prob repost this when spring training starts so here’s a preview of what’s to come ;)

by (!ts_a_C.A._thing) on Oct 5, 2010 1:19 AM PDT via mobile reply actions
Ha!
Apparently, after three years + on here I still can’t figure the reply button…muhahaha….
dissenter, dubious and devil's advocate to blog monitors everywhere.
by BryanHarvey'sMoustache on Oct 5, 2010 6:01 AM PDT up reply actions
NO TRAFFIC???
shows how much of NEWBIE you are, son.
We’re all just coming out of hibernation, after a long, crappy, disappointing season. We got months and months to speculate about trades, what ifs, historical moments in Angels baseball and countless hours scouring the internet to see what Peter Bourjos OPB is in Mexican Winter Ball and attempting to find off-season Flickr accounts showcasing the best and worst of the lives of the our boys’ offseason.
Nice little cute homemade photos you made. This is a Welchy post though so it usually drives a fair amount of comments. I would suggest posting them to a Halowood post…he usually writes about 38 of them a month.
dissenter, dubious and devil's advocate to blog monitors everywhere.
by BryanHarvey'sMoustache on Oct 5, 2010 6:01 AM PDT reply actions
Indeed
I joined almost a year ago (/tear) because of the quality of discussion and better thread structure HH presented compared to the Angels’ official page. Not to mention the fact that trolls actually get put back under their bridge here. Don’t get me wrong, I like flaming the trolls, but when even I get bored of my own insults it’s time for them to go.
I’ve been concocting a thread in my head for the last couple of weeks that I think will be kind of an interesting tangent for the start of the offseason. Hopefully, I’ll find time to actually write it.
By the way, I think when you say “finding off-season Flickr accounts”, we all know you mean 44Fan finding creepy pictures of Mike Napoli’s personal life.
Scioscialist Party of America - Redistributing your defense since 2000.
by Commander_Nate on Oct 5, 2010 9:05 AM PDT up reply actions
haha
Please don’t call me a newbie, and I’m not your son.
Honestly I think we both know that only the real die hards will be visiting this site religiously. I can almost almost guarantee that about 50 percent of the fans on here would have moved on to football or are just going to take a break for a while and may not visit or post here more then once or twice in the next few months….
To be clear, I didn’t mean this site would die between now and spring training. I just meant that traffic would slow down and the Jim Fregosi thread had been up all day with only 9 posts before I jumped on it. Which shows some slowing. Most posts no matter how important or not may grow to 50-60 posts in an hour. Enough of my ranting lol I see your point and feel the same. I love speculation on trades and off season talk. Your right I probably shoulda posted on a halowood haha.
by (!ts_a_C.A._thing) on Oct 5, 2010 9:57 AM PDT via mobile up reply actions
There was quite a bit of traffic last winter as rumors picked up and ST got closer
Stick around, man!
Scioscialist Party of America - Redistributing your defense since 2000.
by Commander_Nate on Oct 5, 2010 10:26 AM PDT up reply actions
dont worry nate.
Ill be here and I hope a lot of us stick around. I’m really interested to see what’s gonna happen.. from everything I’ve been reading sounds like Moreno is super pissed from what Torii’s quotes say. Plus I read that Moreno is willing to up the payroll from 121 mill to 135+ that’d be really nice.
by (!ts_a_C.A._thing) on Oct 5, 2010 10:56 AM PDT via mobile up reply actions
Alot of us are here year round,
Myself included, so don’t worry, it never get that slow around here.
YOU DON'T KNOW THE POWER OF THE DARKSIDE.....
We'll see
My comment was tongue in cheek but in reality, we actually do pretty damn well in the off-season…
dissenter, dubious and devil's advocate to blog monitors everywhere.
by BryanHarvey'sMoustache on Oct 6, 2010 6:26 AM PDT up reply actions
Know where Fregosi ranks on career WAR by a shorstop through age 28?
Fifth. Seriously, fifth. You have to go to #9 to find your next non-Hall of Famer.
There was baseball and stats in the 60's?
What was it like?
Scioscialist Party of America - Redistributing your defense since 2000.
Ask Bob Gibson
Classic old post from Stirrups around here somewhere about Bob Gibson and pitch counts, just can’t find it.
Don't call me Pete.
by highlandhalo on Oct 5, 2010 11:03 AM PDT up reply actions
Classic quote from Tim McCarver on one of his visits to the mound to settle down Gibson...
…“The only thing you know about pitching is how hard it is to hit. Now go get back behind the plate”.
Found the link to Stirrups old Bob Gibson remark about baseball in the 60s
Always worth the re-hash:
http://www.halosheaven.com/2006/7/30/181415/611#847527
Don't call me Pete.
by highlandhalo on Oct 5, 2010 12:19 PM PDT up reply actions
Ahhh, yes....good times.
Back before I was neutered by the f-bomb limit.
"Wastin away again in Minor-Leaguer-Ville..."
Nice offseason start matt...
I vaguely remember watching JF play a couple times @ the Big A. Seems like he hit a HR that hit or came close to hitting the scoreboard on the A…on 1 bounce.
by K3YEROUT on Oct 5, 2010 9:07 AM PDT via mobile reply actions
Fregosi was my favorite Angel as a kid
and probably still is. I think for my 6th birthday my mom hand-made me an Angels baseball uniform with No. 11 on it (back in those days, moms could do things like hand-make baseball uniforms for birthday presents, rather than just click “buy X-Box” on Amazon.com.
Good times, good times … and Fregosi had a damn good glove.
Don't call me Pete.
hahahaha, I was just going to post that!
Gary DEEE-Sar-SEENA!!!!!
by Balls and Strikes on Oct 5, 2010 10:11 PM PDT up reply actions
Who was the singer-songwriter of the '60s?
Statisticians are still debating how to properly evaluate Bob Dylan’s Anti-WAR, but they’re reasonably confident that he set an all-time record in 1968.
by Suboptimal on Oct 5, 2010 2:01 PM PDT reply actions 1 recs
Fregosi's 1964 was off the charts good
A 8.1 WAR in a severe pitcher’s park (Dodger Stadium) in the year of the pitcher. Dean Chance won the Cy Young that year with an era of 1.65. Koufax had an era of 1.74 that year and Drysdale 2.18.
Great piece of writing Matt.
And although both Fregosi and Wills were a bit before my time, from talking to various people who were around at the time, and had the pleasure of seeing both these guys, the conclusion is pretty unanimous. Wills was a great player, but Fregosi was the better, more complete player. Too bad he didn’t get his proper dues.
YOU DON'T KNOW THE POWER OF THE DARKSIDE.....
Yes, growing up...
…there are a few names of early Angel players that are permanently stuck in my head…Bobby Knoop, Lee Thomas, Bo Belinsky, Dean Chance (sorry Gubi!), Ryne Duren, Bob Cerv, Rick Reichardt, Bob Rodgers and Albie Pearson to name a few.
But the one name that stood above all others was Jim Fregosi. He WAS the Angel franchise for the 1st 10 years. There was some sweet symmetry/karma that he managed the Angels to their first ever western division championship. Beside the 2002 world series championship, that was about as happy as I have even been as an Angel fan. YES WE CAN. Yes, we did.
Honestly, no.
I didn’t attend ANY games at the Big A until the ’75 season (2-3 games). The next 3 seasons I attend a grand total of 2 games. 2 of those 3 years I was going to college in another state.
But I was back home in 1979, and that season was…in one word…AWESOME. I attended about 10 games that year. Even without Bostock (R.I.P.), that team had such a great offense. Baylor was beyond superlatives. He was on pace for 150 RBI’s before faltering a bit in September.
My friends and I would try to sit along the 3rd base line on the railing. Early in the season, we were getting seats mid-way between 3B and the foul pole. Midway through the season, we were pushed further down by the foul pole. Later in the season, we could no longer get seats along the railing. So, we’d sit as close as possible to the railing…usually 3-4 rows back. Still, good time with lots of late inning rallies. So, I sort of recall an Angel booster club, but nothing specific of a guy with his drum and trumpet. He may have been closer to home, and not easily within ear reach.
That 3 game sweep of Yankees before the ASB remains one of my all time favorite Angel highlights. That was when I realized…this team has a chance, a real chance to FINALLY topple KC and win a western division championship! The little kid in me still gets giddy recalling specifics from that season. Ah…memories.
"Halo Harry". He wore a straw hat and striped vest, and also had a tambourine.
"Wastin away again in Minor-Leaguer-Ville..."
Real name Jay Freese.
So very, very little info about “Halo Harry” on the ’net. Which is a shame, because he was a full 5 years ahead of Ted Giannoulas – the San Diego Chicken – and all the team mascots that followed after the SD Chicken.
"Wastin away again in Minor-Leaguer-Ville..."
SS
The Dodgers went to the Ws 1963-1965-1966—Without Wills they would not have made it once!-He brought back the stolen base!—Fregosi WAS great but numbers are not the only way to gauge a player!—The Angels did nothing in the 60s!
Wills was the 5th best player on baseball's best franchise of the time
Fregosi was the best player on an expansion team (albeit the most successful expansion team until the 1990s, judged by winning% over first six years). Giving Wills credit for being Sandy Koufax’s teammate seems queer.
Nothing?
I am guessing that you are one of those all or nothing guys.
Fregosi gave us hope! gave us Pride! He made us competitive!
He was the face of the Angels until Nolan Ryan (and a lot of people were upset at that trade.)
Fregosi was the reason other teams feared coming to the West Coast for a series. Sure there were other bats or gloves in the line up from time to time. But Jim was the home grown product that starting All Star games. (Is there another player who started an All Star game that came up with the Angels?)
He was great with the bat during a pitching age. He was awesome with the glove. He Angels used to market Golden Glove Fregosi and Knoop as league leaders in turning the double play. His only problem is that he doesn’t have the counting stats.
Yes, the Angels didn’t even win the league. But isn’t that what makes us fans? We root for a team even when they don’t come out on top. And it was easy to tell who our best position player was. Who is it now? Napoli?
It must seem kind of amazing that I fail to share in the Fregosi love.
Considering I grew up in the first 3 rows behind the home dugout, chatting with the guy on a weekly basis when I was a punk, seeing him play up close for years, having loved and the Halos since the mid-60’s, not owning the hero worship must seem out of place. Or it is a serious failure in my cred.
Maybe it was because back then offensive production was not something sought from the SS position. Defense was, and Fregosi had hands of stone. I guess it would be the equivalant of having Torii Hunter playing SS these days. So I have been an Aparicio guy.
"Wastin away again in Minor-Leaguer-Ville..."
Jim Fregosi was Mr. Angel, Maury Wills changed the game
Fregosi will always be Mr. Angel to me and personified the team for the first decade of its existence.
Maury Wills re-introduced the stolen base to baseball, and paved the way for players like Lou Brock and Rickey Henderson to take it to another level.
Both players were what their team needed.
Both were my favorite players for their respective teams. Wills should be in the Hall of Fame for changing the game. I wish Fregosi was. Because he’s Mr. Angel, always has been, and always will be to me.
by California Cajun on Oct 7, 2010 10:35 AM PDT reply actions

by 




























