SB Nation Los Angeles Editor's Pick
Adrian Beltre's Walk Seasons, and Other Illusions
Some people are pooh-poohing Adrian Beltre as a possible solution to the Angels' urgent 3B problem by saying he's really not that good a ballplayer. This is, I believe, the opposite of accurate, for reasons we'll get to after the jump. As a taste of the counter-argument, here's something you probabaly did not know: Adrian Beltre is one of the only players in major league history to NEVER -- not once, not even close -- hit as well at home in a season as he did on the road. Playing in offensive mausoleums for 12 of 13 seasons can do that to a guy, severely distorting the numbers we all use to make snap judgments.
For more on Beltre's "walk-year" magic and other (IMO) myths, read on.
Here are the ABCs against AB:
If you throw out the seasons Beltre had in '04 with the Dodgers & '10 with the Red Sux, he's an average player offensively. Very average. [...]
It looks like the best way to get a return on your investment with Beltre is to have him in a contract year.
Let's acknowledge that on the surface this sounds plausible. It is totally true that Beltre's 2010 and especially 2004 (one of the best seasons ever by a 3Bman) scream out as outliers. They are the only time he has hit above .290 (.321 and 334, respectively), had more than 166 Hits (189 and 200), more than 26 Home Runs (28 and 48), 100 RBI (102 and 121), OPS+s of higher than 114 (141 and 163), or Wins Above Replacement (WAR, Baseball Reference's version) higher than 4.6 (6.1 and 10.1). Sounds like he's just turning it on when he needs to, and coasting the rest of the time, right?
Wrong.
Beltre had a third contract year that most people don't mention. It was 2009, and he put up the 2nd worst numbers of his career: .265/.304/.379, with just 8 HRs, 44 RBIs, and 1.1 WAR. If big-league effort was an on-off switch activated by greed, where the hell in 2009 was the guy who once hit .334 with 48 HRs?
Another problem with the walk-year thesis: Even if you just wave off 2009 as an injury-riddled fluke, when you credit salary motivation for Beltre's 2004/10 results, you are basically arguing that the famous contract-year effect (which, according to researchers who have systematically studied it rather than half-assedly asserted it, does not, strictly speaking, exist) courses stronger through Beltre's veins than in those of just about any other player in Major League history.
Still, let's assume for the moment that that's true. What kind of player would produce effort and results that are so obviously and disproportionately discretionary? The basic type is not hard to conjure up: obviously oozing with talent, dogs it noticeably on the field, pulls himself out of the lineup for hangnails, rarely makes it to 150 games in a season, and is subject to periodic public questioning of his moods and motivations. In other words ... the exact opposite of Adrian Beltre.
Beltre once took a bad hop to the nuts, without a cup on, causing his testicle to swell up to the size of a "grapefruit," yet stayed in the game until the 14th inning and eventually scored the winning run, even though the injury was severe enough that he had to take a rare trip to the disabled list. Go ahead and read that sentence again. Then riddle me this: Have you ever read an article about, say, J.D. Drew or Milton Bradley or Gary Matthews, Jr. that began like this: "There was no way that Adrian Beltre was coming out of Saturday night's game, short of a broken limb or gushing blood"? Terry Francona, in that story, says "that's one of the things that kind of came with his reputation....They said he really never wanted a day off." If Beltre was a hangnail artist, he sure has had a funny way of showing it -- over the last two decades of Major League baseball, the third baseman who has logged the most 150-game seasons (7) is a cat named Adrian Beltre. And he had an 8th with 149.
People are eager to "throw out the seasons Beltre had in '04 with the Dodgers & '10 with the Red Sux," and before I take them up on that exercise, too, it's worth asking the question: Why exactly would you do that? It is not uncommon for a good player's two best seasons to tower above the rest of his work, nor is it rare for those seasons to occur in the near-prime ages of 25 and 31. Here are the best three seasons, according to Wins Above Replacement, by Adrian Beltre, Scott Rolen, and Darrell Evans:
NM YR1 YR2 YR3
AB 10.1 6.1 4.6
SR 9.2 6.6 5.8
DE 9.0 6.8 4.9
So the career arc is not exactly unprecedented. And keep in mind that Beltre is far from done, and could conceivably have another season with more than 4.6 WAR (Evans, after all, put up his 4.9 at age 40). So why do Rolen and Evans get to keep their best years but not Beltre? Sal Bando, like Beltre, set career highs at age 25 in Runs, Hits, Homers, RBIs, OPS+, and WAR, but we'll give him the benefit of the doubt because the Reserve Clause was still around? Mike Schmidt set career highs at age 31 in Batting Average, On-Base Percentage, Slugging, and OPS+; should we make him forfeit that MVP award?
All right, so what happens when we do toss out Beltre's walk years (including, to be accurate, his 2009)? You get a guy who for 9 full seasons averaged this:
G PA AB R H 2B 3B HR RBI SB/C BB SO BA OBP SLG OPS+ WAR
149 614 560 72 148 31 3 21 80 10/4 44 98 .264 .311 .441 101 2.8
Is that "very average" offense at third base? Well, comparing it to the average AL team's 3B output last year (minus Beltre), it sure the hell looks like it:
G PA AB R H 2B 3B HR RBI SB/C BB SO BA OBP SLG OPS+
162 678 617 75 158 32 2 18 79 7/3 48 115 .257 .310 .404 97
Almost uncanny, right? Ah, but here is where numbers can deceive. For one, Beltre is playing 149 games a year even in his non-walk seasons, something only 9 or 10 third basemen in the big leagues do in any given year. (The Angels' leader in games played at 3B last year, who shall go unnamed, had all of 56.) While Beltre was starting 703 of 810 possible games at 3B over the five years of his much-mocked Seattle contract, the team that let him go (winning almost unanimous applause from the sabermetric crowd, as I can testify from being on the butt end of many arguments from the time), was apportioning its 3B starts like this:
186 Casey Blake
84 Wilson Betemit
82 Blake DeWitt
50 Nomar Garciaparra
45 Willy Aybar
40 Andy LaRoche
33 Antonio Perez
33 Mike Edwards
33 Oscar Robles
30 Bill Mueller
28 Cesar Izturis
24 Jose Valentin
24 Olmedo Saenz
24 Tony Abreu
17 Shea Hillenbrand
14 Mark Loretta
13 Julio Lugo
9 Ronnie Belliard
8 Russell Martin
6 Norihuro Nakamura
5 Ramon Martinez
5 Joel Guzman
4 Wilson Valdez
2 Juan Castro
The Dodgers had 9 guys log more than 31 starts at 3B from 2005-2009; the Mariners had 1. Being able to set and forget your third base position for five years is something far more valuable than mere positional averages can convey.
Numbers Deception #2: Since the stat lines above are definitionally offensive, they don't show that Beltre has been one of the best defensive third basemen in the game for a decade. WAR has him saving the 12th-most runs at 3B in Major League history, just ahead of Matt Williams and below Terry Pendleton. He's not as good as he was in his mid-20s (which is true for virtually all infielders), but he's still quite good.
And finally, as foreshadowed at the beginning of this post, it is impossible to read Beltre's offensive numbers accurately without factoring in some highly unusual context. Because not only has Beltre played in extreme pitchers parks his entire career except for 2010, heavily distorting his surface numbers, he has personally suffered from his home setting more than just about any player in modern history. Consider this -- the average player puts up an OPS of around 40 points higher at home than on the road each year. Home cooking, familiar environment & all that. Beltre has NEVER had a home OPS even within 26 points of what he's done on the road, and usually the splits are a helluva lot worse: -200 in 2001, -159 in 2008, -141 in 2002, and so on. For his career, he's a .258/.315/.425 hitter at home, .290/.341/.496 on the road.
It's hard to accept these facts even after you learn them. I mean, Scott Rolen's obviously a better hitter than Adrian Beltre, right? Well, here are their career road numbers:
NM G PA AB R H 2B 3B HR RBI SB/CS BB SO BA OBP SLG
SR 929 3990 3489 590 989 235 15 160 580 60/24 405 692 .283 .363 .497
AB 924 3904 3581 475 1040 234 23 152 569 52/22 262 593 .290 .341 .496
I don't know about you, but that just stuns me. Rolen is one of the 10 best third basemen to ever play the game.
To best visualize the enormity of Beltre's park disortions, here are his road numbers since 1999, multiplied by two:
YR G PA AB R H 2B 3B HR RBI SB/C BB K BA OBP SLG OPS+
99 150 626 544 82 160 24 8 18 78 18/10 68 104 .296 .372 .467 118
00 146 636 564 78 168 38 2 26 118 6/4 60 88 .298 .362 .511 126
01 132 544 504 68 148 22 8 18 76 12/4 34 98 .294 .338 .476 117
02 158 658 624 72 188 24 8 28 98 12/2 24 94 .285 .311 .484 114
03 162 654 612 58 162 40 4 20 84 2/2 36 112 .265 .309 .441 101
04 158 688 620 104 212 38 0 50 120 10/2 66 110 .342 .404 .645 175
05 162 684 636 68 158 46 2 24 88 2/2 40 112 .248 .295 .440 98
06 160 722 658 88 186 52 6 18 90 10/8 48 126 .283 .343 .462 113
07 144 632 598 90 172 56 2 30 108 6/2 28 100 .288 .320 .538 127
08 144 624 562 86 164 30 2 30 108 10/2 52 84 .292 .349 .512 134
09 114 494 458 60 128 28 0 8 50 12/4 22 62 .279 .324 .393 96
10 158 670 618 88 202 60 4 30 104 2/2 36 68 .327 .370 .583 166
So, 6 seasons of .290 or better, 5 with 100+ RBIs, 4 with 30 HRs, 3 with 50 doubles (including one with 60), and slugging percentages above .500 in 3 of the past 4 seasons. That .264 batting average from above? He's cleared it on the road every season but 1. Put that man in a more neutral setting, then hand out helmets to the bleacher creatures.
It is for these reasons and more that Adrian Beltre is already the 23rd-ranked third baseman all-time by Wins Above Replacement. Among 3Bmen through their age-31 seasons, he ranks 13th in WAR, just between Robin Ventura and Ken Boyer. (Even if you replaced his walk years with average Beltre seasons, he'd still be in the top 30, somewhere between Ron Cey and Carney Lansford.) He already has more doubles than Pie Traynor, more home runs than Brooks Robinson, and more RBIs than Home Run Baker. He's been a top-5 third baseman in the AL in 4 of the past 5 seasons. Except for that one contract year....
But for the sake of argument, let's still pretend that we can and should just magically erase Beltre's walk years; further posit that he just happens to be the most durable player to ever give lukewarm effort for most of his career, and assume that his offensive numbers should be taken at face value and not adjusted heavily for context. Let us make believe that Adrian Beltre has really been nothing more than a .264/.311/.441 hitter all along. Now compare this fictional Bad Beltre to the real-world results that the Angels have been receiving from the third base position since 2005:
NM PA AB R H 2B 3B HR RBI SB/C BB SO BA OBP SLG
AB 614 560 72 148 31 3 21 80 10/4 44 98 .264 .311 .441
10 646 600 67 134 26 0 8 52 7/3 33 79 .223 .266 .307
09 755 643 116 195 32 7 7 62 41/17 100 119 .303 .396 .407
08 708 630 83 162 16 3 3 34 31/15 69 121 .257 .336 .306
07 690 618 96 183 30 6 4 75 38/9 63 100 .296 .358 .383
06 707 634 100 168 29 6 16 69 22/7 59 97 .265 .330 .405
05 675 611 89 150 29 8 14 58 25/11 53 132 .245 .306 .388
More homers, extra base hits, RBIs, and slugging than any Angels performance, and a higher OPS than every year but one. The caricature that Beltre isn't is still a better bet than the bags of meat (apologies to Chone Figgins) that we've thrown at the problem since Troy Glaus left.
Look, there is a perfectly respectable argument against signing Adrian Beltre -- he'll be entering his 32-35 decline phase, he's got a lot of mileage, and he'll be Borastastically expensive. But he is a very good, very durable, very hard-working baseball player who has been playing at a high established level the past half-decade with the exception of one injury year. I'd be shocked if he didn't put up at least 60 extra-base hits a year in Anaheim. With his defense and dependability, and with the black hole we currently have going at the hot corner, that's more than worth it for me.
This Fan-Post is authored by an independent fan. Tell us what you think and how you feel.
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Silly Matt
You let niggling things like facts get in the way of conventional “wisdom.”
People essentially find fault with Beltre because he has had “only” two MVP-type seasons, and has been merely good for the rest of the time. But how many players ever have even one MVP-type season, let alone a string of seasons as good as Beltre’s average year.
I almost wish he weren’t as good as he is; I wouldn’t feel as bad when he signs somewhere else. I honestly don’t think the Angels brass understands how good Beltre is, or how desperately they need him…a lot more than they need Carl Crawford or a free agent reliever.
by jjackflash on Nov 19, 2010 10:02 PM PST reply actions 1 recs
definitely agree...
the Angels need Beltre much more than they need Crawford. They need a quality thirdbaseman more than they need a solid outfielder. I just hope Reagins sees this as well.
go long with extenze...i do
by angelsownredsux on Nov 19, 2010 11:37 PM PST up reply actions
Everytime Beltre's name comes up the writer mentions tha the Angels have been a fan for a long time
Reggie Willits: The non-tender candidate of my dreams.
The reason for the statements, I think, comes from the fact boras is his agent
its easy to automatically assume that boras= greed and I think a lot of that comes out as dislike for the players. It seems there is no loyalty to a team and if there is no loyalty, there is no reason why the player would perform (assuming its possible) at his peak unless it was in his interest.
Unfortunately for Beltre, his amazing career has been marred by his choice of agent.
by Balls and Strikes on Nov 21, 2010 12:27 AM PST up reply actions
Great write-up
Your points are all well taken, and to elaborate on your last point….
How much a team should be willing to spend on a player shouldn’t be based solely on numbers, but on how much they can improve at that position as well. Paying an extra 3-4 mil every year is worth it to the Angels because the alternatives are so shitty. Same with CC which is why I’d love to see us sign both. But both are worth it for the same reasons. You can’t really make an argument for/against Beltre without making it for CC. Even when you look at the biggest difference between them: age. Beltre’s value comes from his defense and power upgrade at the plate. Crawford has speed, both in the outfield and on the paths. Crawford’s speed will decline just as much as Beltre’s power over the course of their next contracts. I’ll be satisfied coming out of this offseason with either, but I really hope we get both guys.
by lightupthehalo29 on Nov 19, 2010 10:41 PM PST reply actions
One advantage of an AB over CC signing
If I had to choose to sign just one of them it would be Beltre, due to our current depth at the position.
We have outfeild depth from Orem to Salt Lake. Also one of the best prospects in all of baseball is possibly a year away from breaking into the Angels outfield.
But with third base everything looks years away. Signing Beltre will help us now and it has a higher probability of helping us in the future. A big CC contract (most likely more years and annual $$$) could be a big headache. I know that both of them would help us now, but unlike the Yankees we have to think about next year and after.
Great job Matt! Now let's just hope Boras doesn't find this and use it to drive up Beltre's contract price...
Enjoyed it anyway!
Light up that halo! RIP, Nick.
I hate how people forget just how phenomonal his defense has been
Even if he is only alright offensively (Which he will certainly surpass) he is so great with the glove, he makes it worth the risk.
BOURJOS BOURJOS BOURJOS BOURJOS
Scott Borass says, "thanks Matt!"
He’ll include this in the AB GM presentation in contract talks.
I will say this…living in Seattle amongst the fans here. not that many people were all that upset to see him go at the time.
"People ask me what I do in winter when there's no baseball. I'll tell you what I do. I stare out the window and wait for spring." -- Rogers Hornsby
Really?
It seemed to me that many, many people in Seattle were upset to see Beltre go. Myself included.
by Ballard Erik on Nov 22, 2010 1:21 PM PST up reply actions
Here's where my issues lay.....
Everyone keeps saying Beltre was better on the road and such, well weren’t these the same arguments for signing Matsui? That his numbers were better outside of Yankee stadium. Yet he comes here, fans 23 more times, OBP dips a few points and hits 7 less HR’s. It’s not like he was a disappointment, it’s just he wasn’t going to make a difference one way or another.
Here’s another issue I have. Adrian Beltre comes here and produces his career average which is about .275/.325 35 DB 25 HR. Well that’s great, that’s a fine stat line to put up, but that is that stat line worth 15 million dollars a year? On top of which, our current 3B is one year separates from .300/.356 40 DB 11 HR. This year, in what was a horrible down year where Callaspo battled injury, he puts up .265/.302 27 DB 10 HR. he’s turning 28 years old, he’s in his prime and there’s a good chance we’ll see another .300/.350 35+ DB 10+ HR season from Callaspo. And guess how much he costs? Under a million.
The only thing separating Callaspo and Belte offensively in Callaspo will hit 15 less HR’s a year. Are you willing to invest 15 million for 15 more HR’s a year? That’s one HR once every 10 games, that’s all that’s separating Adrian Beltre and Alberto Callaspo.
I think Beltre is a fantastic player, but I don’t think he’s going to be an Angel or should be an Angel because:
1. He’s pricing himself right out of Anaheim at this rate. He wants Red Sox/Yankee money at the tail end of his career.
2. 3B is not a black hole, Callaspo is adequate defensively and not shabby offensively considering there’s a good chance he’s going to hit 25 points higher than league average at 3B.
3. Our biggest need is clutch hitting (yeah I know, some people think it’s a myth, Crawford’s numbers suggest otherwise, but I guess we’ll see), lead off hitter that can replace Figgins SB totals and play good defense in LF. Crawford does all those.
In an ideal world we’d get both, but if I have to choose, I choose Carl Crawford at 20 million over Adrian Beltre at 15. Crawford just fills more needs at the moment.
"You play for Cleveland? I didn't know they still had a team." - Claire Holloway
"Yup, we've got uniforms and everything, it's really great!" - Jake Taylor
Damn! Now I 'm all confused.
Matt’s hard core sales pitch is overwhelmingly persuasive.
Halowood’s not-so-polished rebuttal is colloquial, but true.
Combining Halowood’s rebuttal with Matt’s “respectable argument against signing Adrian Beltre” from his last paragraph, forever remembering that he is a Boras client, I am inclined to allow Boston to re-sign Beltre. We’re going to have plenty of trouble with Boras clients soon enough with Weaver and Morales; unless we can steal him, we don’t need his anchor of a contract as an example, or encouragement, to our own home-grown stars.
Having said that, I don't think CCrawford should get more than 5/$90MM from the Angels either.
No more than they paid Torii, with the possible caveat of a 6th year option.
If he demands more, pluck him!
On point 3
If Bobby Abreu is not leading off next year, I’m going to be very pissed off.
There are 3 things that matter for a leadoff hitter: OBP, BA and speed. Abreu for his career is the best combination of those on our team, and yes, that remains true even if our team includes Crawford.
Scioscialist Party of America - Redistributing your defense since 2000.
by Commander_Nate on Nov 20, 2010 8:45 AM PST up reply actions
Absolutely right
Crawford brings OF speed and defense, and some pop in the bat, but even he sees himself as a #2 or #3 hitter, not as a leadoff guy. He doesn’t have the metrics for it. He’ll be great hitting that double into the gap which scores the runners on base (he was much better last season hitting with runners on than with the bases empty).
So many people think that speed is the lone prerequisite for being a great leadoff hitter, but that myth was exposed most recently with Aybar at the top of the order.
Abreu is a very good #2 hitter (he allows the runner on first the chance to see a lot of pitches, and his lefhandedness blocks the ability of the catcher to see that runner), but he is a better candidate to lead off than any other player on the Angels roster, even if that roster included Crawford.
Maybe one day Bourjos will be that guy, but he’s going to need some seasoning first.
"I can't tell people what to think or not to think. Their perceptions are their perceptions. We just feel we've taken a step forward. At the end of the day, we have to play 162 games. Once that happens then we'll be able to evaluate the offseason moves."~Tony Reagins, on the Angels' offseason
by George Kaplan on Nov 20, 2010 8:58 AM PST up reply actions
Like I said before, Crawford would only be leading off for a season, maybe a season and a half.
Trout’s coming. And he’s going to lead off.
"You play for Cleveland? I didn't know they still had a team." - Claire Holloway
"Yup, we've got uniforms and everything, it's really great!" - Jake Taylor
IF Trout comes this is sound judgement
But Trout needs to make it to Anaheim without suffering injuries/arrrests/unexpected suckage.
Carl Crawford is really really important for us right now. Althought Matt almost has me sold on Beltre, I think Callaspo will be fine manning 3rd. Just get CC in that lineup!
Don't call me Pete.
by highlandhalo on Nov 20, 2010 1:21 PM PST up reply actions
"The only thing separating Callaspo and Belte offensively in Callaspo will hit 15 less HR’s a year."
I’ll take the over.
If Callapsfail hits a .350 OBP, I'll shit my pants.
Expect something a lot closer to .300.
Warning: The message above may or may not contain sarcasm. Read and interpret at your own risk.
by snowhor on Nov 20, 2010 9:42 AM PST via mobile up reply actions
^this^
Callaspo, Aybar, Wood and Glassturiz combined would not give us .310 OPB from 3B
by Rev Halofan on Nov 20, 2010 12:59 PM PST up reply actions
Per 162 games, here's the difference between Beltre & Callaspo
Beltre: 19 runs, +18 HRs, +5 2Bs, +33 RBIs, +6 SBs, +71 OPS points, and +16 OPS points.
Callaspo: uh, +3 3Bs?
This while Callaspo has played in much better places to hit.
That only tells part of the story Matt....
Those averages includes Beltre’s steroid season which we conveniently ignore and his monster season in Boston bandbox. Yeah I get it, he hit well away from home, but he also had Youk, Pedroia, V-Mart, Ortiz as protection. I’m pretty sure if we juice up Callaspo he’d hit .330 and 20 HR’s. I’m pretty sure if we put Callaspo in the heart of the Boston order he’d produce. Beltre in an Angels lineup….not so much.
All intuition, no stats is my style I know that and I know it doesn’t stand up so well in an argument, but I’m willing to be that if Beltre plays somewhere other than Boston next year and Callaspo plays in Anaheim, Callaspo’s BA will be at least 20 points higher, their OBP’s will be similar, their amount of DB’s will be similar and Beltre will hit 15 more HR’s.
I like Beltre and admit he’s an upgrade over Callaspo, but the difference is not a 15 million dollar difference.
"You play for Cleveland? I didn't know they still had a team." - Claire Holloway
"Yup, we've got uniforms and everything, it's really great!" - Jake Taylor
"Beltre's steroid season"
Do tell.
Also get back to me after you read the literature about “protection.”
Is it a “15 million dollar difference”? Depends on how you price losing.
Its about a 15 million payout if you get to the world series isnt it?
by Balls and Strikes on Nov 21, 2010 12:38 AM PST up reply actions
And you think Beltre's the differenc between 80 wins a World Series? HA!
"You play for Cleveland? I didn't know they still had a team." - Claire Holloway
"Yup, we've got uniforms and everything, it's really great!" - Jake Taylor
No, I didnt say that. But I dont believe this team will go anywhere with our current 3B options
I dont have the confidence in callaspo you seem to. I know you seem to think he is the new beltre, but I dont see it.
What we have now are 3 easy outs at the bottom of a lineup. Any pitcher would love to face the trifecta of Bourjos, Callaspo and Mathis every third inning. With those 3 bats in the lineup there is little chance a rally continues past the 6 hitter and there is little chance of getting anything going once they come up. We dont have any options better than Bourjos, mathis should be cut for anyone, but we have a chance to improve over what we have at 3B.
Yes, Callaspo may improve and come close to beltre’s BA and he is a great guy to have around as an infield backup; But this isnt a team that needs a bunch of crossed fingers and question marks and it certainly doesnt need any more light hitting infielders. We have question marks in in Bourjos, Aybar, and to a lesser extent Kendrick and Abreu. This is a team in the second largest market in the nation with an owner dedicated to winning a championship. If you can turn a question mark into a known top tier player, you do it because the money simply doesnt matter. The 200 million arte would spend to sign beltre, crawford and a solid closer is nothing compared to the money he can make off a world series contender.
by Balls and Strikes on Nov 21, 2010 8:18 AM PST up reply actions 1 recs
False, I don't think Callaspo's the next Beltre. I think he's a better deal that Beltre for 15+ million.
Callaspo will have a better BA than Beltre and match him in doubles and OBP. Beltre will hit more HR’s and play better defense. I seriously doubt however, that the difference between Beltre and Callaspo is the difference between making us a WS contender or not. Completely overstated. The difference would probably be going from an 80 win team to an 84 win team.
"You play for Cleveland? I didn't know they still had a team." - Claire Holloway
"Yup, we've got uniforms and everything, it's really great!" - Jake Taylor
What makes you so sure about Callaspo's production?
You seem to be banking on him returning to his 2009 form, which could very well be an outlier for him. Even if it isn’t, those numbers are pretty nice coming from a second baseman, but disappointing at third.
You seem to really underestimate the difference 15 home runs a year can make, especially when all their other numbers are pretty similar. While it’s a crude measurement, if 10 runs = 1 win, then theoretically Beltre would give us 1.5 more wins than Callaspo just due to his ability to hit the ball out of the park more frequently. Add in his immensely superior defense, and you’re looking at a guy that would probably net us 3-4 more wins a year than Callaspo, and that’s factoring in your optimistic forecasting of Callaspo’s production. If Alberto plays like he did in 2010 again, the spread is even greater.
I just don’t see how this team can go into 2011 with mediocre production at third as the best case scenario. Options for corner outfield are plentiful. At third, not so much.
Well we certianly agree on one thing, Callaspo's 2009 numbers were good for a 2B and not a 3B.
But I think if Callaspo duplicates those numbers in 2011 at 3B, we’d be better off with Crawford in LF. Mostly because if we get Beltre at 3B, I’m thinking LF will be an absolute disaster. We’d either have to deal with Juan Rivera’s awful offense and pathetic defense, or Abreu underperforming at the plate and worst defense in the OF I’ve ever seen, or Willits doing nothing but grounding out to 2B every AB.
"You play for Cleveland? I didn't know they still had a team." - Claire Holloway
"Yup, we've got uniforms and everything, it's really great!" - Jake Taylor
You act as if
We can’t sign or trade for a left fielder.
Honestly, I’m not a huge fan of either Beltre or Crawford. Both are flawed players who are going to be seriously overpriced because they’re hitting a very weak free agent class. The difference is after Beltre there are no legitimate options for third in the free agent market or through a trade. Left field is a pretty easy position to fill, comparatively speaking.
by dmhead on Nov 21, 2010 2:49 PM PST up reply actions 1 recs
Really? Who's going to trade us a stud LF? What are we going to have to give up?
After this year Pineiro, Kazmir and Rdoney are FA’s, are we willing to deal away Chatwood, Richards, Reckling or Walden? Because that’s what every team is going to ask for. I don’t think we can afford that price as easily as we can afford Crawford for 20 million.
Not to mention the first name that will pop up in every conversation is going to be Mike Trout, many teams won’t be willing to move their stud LF before the season unless we make it extremly worth while. They’ll ask Trout, we’ll say no, they’ll say bye.
"You play for Cleveland? I didn't know they still had a team." - Claire Holloway
"Yup, we've got uniforms and everything, it's really great!" - Jake Taylor
He was very charming
"You play for Cleveland? I didn't know they still had a team." - Claire Holloway
"Yup, we've got uniforms and everything, it's really great!" - Jake Taylor
Flawed players?
Who the shit do you want? Ryan Braun? Both are fine players and would be a welcomed addition/upgrade to the Angels. Please don’t say you wanted Podsednik or DeJesus or Ellsbury in LF because they’re cheap.
They want power. We want respect...
by SenorChuckles on Nov 21, 2010 4:35 PM PST up reply actions
Both can be productive at their age,
yet some insist on overlooking their skill because of the money they’re getting? This is what happens when trying to get a desired player through free agency; overpaying is part of the game. The contract might sting a lil’ towards the end, but it’s not like we’re giving CC 8 years or Beltre 5 years.
They want power. We want respect...
by SenorChuckles on Nov 22, 2010 8:53 AM PST up reply actions
We hope not, anyway.
Scioscialist Party of America - Redistributing your defense since 2000.
by Commander_Nate on Nov 22, 2010 9:17 AM PST up reply actions
it will most likely take
5 years to get Beltre. he ain’t signing no 3 year deal.
protectedpickprotectedpickprotectedpickprotectedpickprotectedpickprotectedpick
by 2pintsofbooze on Nov 22, 2010 9:18 AM PST up reply actions
Re: "protection"
Beltre last year hit mostly in front of J.D. Drew, Jeremy Hermida, Mike Lowell, and Bill Hall. Only Drew was worth much of a damn.
Callaspo's career high in WAR is 1.8
Beltre has bested that 9 different seasons. Beltre matched Callaspo’s career WAR total of 3.7 when he was 20 years old. (Callaspo, when he was 20, was playing hide-the-hot-dog with Erick Aybar in Cedar Rapids.)
by mattwelch on Nov 20, 2010 11:32 AM PST up reply actions 1 recs
hide the hot dog hahaha
+1
go long with extenze...i do
by angelsownredsux on Nov 20, 2010 12:09 PM PST up reply actions
Callaspo is not bad...
….but I want another ring damnit!!!!
Beltre and Crawford = Angels having a better chance to have plural championships.
Compare their road stats, and get back to me about "one HR once every 10 games"
.266/.308/.394 for Callaspo
.290/.341/.496 for Beltre
Lot more going on there per 10 games than an extra home run.
How about their splits at Anaheim stadium?
.265/.308/.301 for Callaspo
.268/.318/.448 for Beltre
That’s an extra double, home run, and walk per week, not 10 games.
Callaspo is cheap, younger, and played very well defensively at 3B last year. But Beltre is a much better player.
Not only
is Beltre better than Callaspo, he is better than any other 3B the Angels could possibly expect to get in the next 3-4 years unless the Mets suddenly decided to get rid of David Wright. Neither Longoria nor Zimmerman is going anywhere. Nor is A-Rod. And Scott Rolen is older. Off the top of my head, I can’t think of any other 3B who is arguably better than Beltre (I deliberately excluded an aging and injured Chipper Jones, who also isn’t going anywhere).
If the Angels want to win, they need to put together the best possible team. Generally, that means getting the best players you can. Yes, it’s a bit Yankee-ish, but the best players give you the best chance of winning. If the Angels had an MVP-type player at 4 other positions, then yeah, maybe they could get away with having Callaspo at third. But they don’t.
I'm not denying that, what I am denying is that Beltre is 15 million better than Callaspo
And I still stand by my other comment. Put Beltre in a npark and lineup other than Boston, and put Callaspo in a park and lineup other than Bsoton and Callaspo’s going to out hit Beltre in the BA dept, be neck and neck with him in OBP and doubles and hit about 15 less HR. If you don’t believe me, just wait, or don’t wait.
Boston’s chances are better than any other team of signing Beltre, but if by some miracle he neither goes to Bsotn or Anaheim, this time next year if we actually remember me saying this, you’re gonna have to say, “Holy crap, Halowood was right.”
"You play for Cleveland? I didn't know they still had a team." - Claire Holloway
"Yup, we've got uniforms and everything, it's really great!" - Jake Taylor
"Callaspo’s going to out hit Beltre in the BA dept"?
The same Callaspo who has hit 24 points worse than Beltre on the road?
Beltre has out-batting averaged Callaspo in Anaheim, Texas, Fenway, ChiSoxville, KC, the Metrodome, new Yankee Stadium, Oakland, Tropicana and Toronto.
Callaspo? Camden Yards, Cleveland, Detroit, Target, old Yankee Stadium, and Safeco.
There is zero reason to believe Callaspo will hit for a higher average or have a higher OBP than Beltre given the same ballpark and “protection.” And we know that Beltre will outslug him by a ton.
And 2009 means nothing? When Callaspo just outplayed him.
"You play for Cleveland? I didn't know they still had a team." - Claire Holloway
"Yup, we've got uniforms and everything, it's really great!" - Jake Taylor
It was one of two years in his career that Beltre was hurt, and he played badly
And it was one of one year in his career that Callaspo played well over a full season in the majors. So, congrats, Alberto!
And as good as Callaspo was, Beltre has been better than Callaspo’s 2009 a total of 9 times in his career (per WAR), by an average and median of twice as good. The question for me is when exactly Beltre will fall off to the point where the best that we can hope for him is merely playing as well as Callaspo ever has. Because you don’t want to be paying $15 million for much of that.
It's not that I don't want Beltre, it's that I'm convinced Crawford is a MUCH better investment.
Callaspo’s only played two seasons in the major leagues, the rest he was either slughtering AAA or riding the bench. In his two seasons, he’s out performed Beltre in half of them. You see what I did there? No mention that Beltre was hurt, I just indicated Callaspo is better than Beltre half the time. Just like you indicated that Beltre outperformed Callaspo 9 times, even though they’ve only been properly compared for two.
I’ll put it like this, Beltre at 3B and Bobby Abreu in LF is WORSE than Callaspo at 3B and Crawford in LF. The disagreement here isn’t whether Beltre is better than Callaspo, it’s “is he 15 million dollars and worst defense in LF better than Callaspo?”
To me, that answer is a loud and resounding no. Beltre may even be more expensive than 15 million.
"You play for Cleveland? I didn't know they still had a team." - Claire Holloway
"Yup, we've got uniforms and everything, it's really great!" - Jake Taylor
Wait for Part 2
I’m currently writing up all the reasons why Crawford would be a terrible investment.
Just for fun, though, here’s the average value of those two combinations over the last three seasons:
Callaspo + Crawford: 5.0 WAR
Beltre + Abreu: 6.0 WAR
Maybe not too big of a difference until you remember that the Angels still have to pay Abreu no matter what, so they do not come with equal costs. Callaspo can still be dumped.
Yes but that's a completely unfair comparison.
1. Callapso didn’t play a full season three years ago.
2. You use the 3 year mark so you can include Crawford’s one bad year.
3. Bobby Abreu simply isn’t the same player he was 3 years ago. The man is 37 and is headed downhill.
Honestly subop, I think that’s cherry picking. How about we try this, compare them the last two years:
Carl Crawford – 4.4 WAR and 4.8 WAR = 9.2 WAR
Alberto Callaspo – 1.8 WAR and1.8 WAR = 3.6 WAR
= 12.8 WAR over two years.
Adrain Beltre – 1.1 WAR and 6.1 WAR = 7.2 WAR
Bobby Abreu – 2.9 WAR and 1.1 WAR = 4.0 WAR
= 11.2 WAR over two years.
Now factor is the fact that Crawford will be 30 next season, and Callaspo will be 28. While Abreu will be 37 and Beltre will be 32.
Not only are Crawford and Callaspo the better combo, but their age indicates they will be a better investment in the future as well. I really feel like I’m right on this one.
"You play for Cleveland? I didn't know they still had a team." - Claire Holloway
"Yup, we've got uniforms and everything, it's really great!" - Jake Taylor
I used a three-year average
Because it includes good and bad years from all those players. Which is how things usually work out: players have good and bad years, but they tend to fluctuate about an average. Three seasons ends up being a pretty reasonable estimate for that average.
As an interesting aside, the Marcel projection scheme (viewable on Fangraphs) is just a weighted average of a player’s last three seasons, with a slight adjustment for age. As far as I know, no one has produced convincing evidence that any other fancy, proprietary projection system (e.g. PECOTA) is more accurate than Marcel.
Well clearly I'm not a stat-head, I'm new to this whole fanboy thing and WAR is as far as I go
I know that a lot of people do’t trust PECOTA. I still trust what I see on the field more than anything and I’ve watch Crawford a lot.
"You play for Cleveland? I didn't know they still had a team." - Claire Holloway
"Yup, we've got uniforms and everything, it's really great!" - Jake Taylor
the more you post
the absolute emptier your positions become. Next time you want to retort someone, give it a day of research (aka pull your head out of your ass and don’t forget to wash) and then post the facts as you see them not as you “trust” them to be.
You mean like this?
Carl Crawford – 4.4 WAR and 4.8 WAR = 9.2 WAR
Alberto Callaspo – 1.8 WAR and1.8 WAR = 3.6 WAR
= 12.8 WAR over two years.
Adrain Beltre – 1.1 WAR and 6.1 WAR = 7.2 WAR
Bobby Abreu – 2.9 WAR and 1.1 WAR = 4.0 WAR
= 11.2 WAR over two years.
Really hard research there Rev. On top of which, it’s better than gibberish opinionated crap you write at SBNLA.
"You play for Cleveland? I didn't know they still had a team." - Claire Holloway
"Yup, we've got uniforms and everything, it's really great!" - Jake Taylor
Exactly, we should sign both if possible!
(9.2 + 7.2 + 4.0 = 20.4) > (9.2 + 3.6 + 4.0 = 16.8)
Proper valuation of this equation could be the difference between a playoff spot and being on the bubble.
Scioscialist Party of America - Redistributing your defense since 2000.
by Commander_Nate on Nov 22, 2010 11:58 AM PST up reply actions
Agreed, if we had unlimited money, I'd love to sign them.
I’d be more than happy to send Callaspo somewhere if money wasn’t an issue. And who knows, maybe it’s not an issue. Our last losing season was 2004, and what did Arte do in response? Bring in Vlad Guerrero, Bartolo Colon and Jose Guillen.
The Angels might get away with signing Crawford and Beltre too. Let’s say we do sign them and our payroll is up at 155 million for 2011. Well we have GMJ (11 million), Scott Kazmir (12 million), Joel Pineiro (8 million) and Fernando Rodney (6 million) coming off the books. That’s 37 million coming free. If we filled rotation and bullpen needs from within (a la Chatwood, Reckling, Richards, Kohn, Walden, Thompson, Geltz, Berg) as well as promote position players from within (Trout, Amarista, Segura, Trumbo, Conger) then there’s no reason that for 2012, our payroll wouldn’t shrink back down toward 125 million.
Make no mistake, this is no love affair I have with Callaspo, with the bitter hatred I have for paying a 32 year old 3B over 15 million a year. Callaspo probably shouldn’t be a regular major league 3B, but he’s the much lesser of two evils.
"You play for Cleveland? I didn't know they still had a team." - Claire Holloway
"Yup, we've got uniforms and everything, it's really great!" - Jake Taylor
correction 2003 was our last losing season.
"You play for Cleveland? I didn't know they still had a team." - Claire Holloway
"Yup, we've got uniforms and everything, it's really great!" - Jake Taylor
Juan Rivera will also free up another $5 mil+
Torii and Abreu will free up a total of around $27 mil after 2012.
This is why I think we are going to do a nice amount of spending this winter and next. If somebody like Napoli, Kendrick, or Santana gets traded, it frees up even more cash.
Scioscialist Party of America - Redistributing your defense since 2000.
by Commander_Nate on Nov 22, 2010 12:19 PM PST up reply actions
Yeah, but I'm also afraid of dealing them....
Napoli – Yeah I could see us trading him for obvious reasons, but only if we’re sure Conger’s ready, and I’m confident he is.
Kendrick – If I had to choose between him and Callaspo, I’d choose him because of his upside, but my feelings wouldn’t be hurt if the Angels chose Callaspo.
Santana – Pitching is key. I absolutely wouldn’t trade Santana. He makes for a good #3.
"You play for Cleveland? I didn't know they still had a team." - Claire Holloway
"Yup, we've got uniforms and everything, it's really great!" - Jake Taylor
I want Santana to stick around too
I just named him because he is one of the 3 players other teams are likely going to be interested in during any trade talks.
Scioscialist Party of America - Redistributing your defense since 2000.
by Commander_Nate on Nov 22, 2010 1:27 PM PST up reply actions
I cant believe this- So you would rather play a guy who you believe shouldn't even be a major league regular
than overpay for a solid player at what is currently our biggest area of need?
That makes no sense. We need as much offensive production from 3B and LF- our two areas where we arent tied down to a player- as possible. Beltre offers the best production currently available.
We dont need a team of “poor man’s” this or that. If this team is dedicated to making a deep run in the postseason this year as arte has said, we need some of the real deal solid offensive and defensive players.
Yes we will overpay, but until some salary cap or other solution comes to this problem of disparity, we are a major market team and should be able to sign some of the best players out there.
by Balls and Strikes on Nov 22, 2010 12:54 PM PST up reply actions 1 recs
Wreckage!
but until some salary cap or other solution comes to this problem of disparity, we are a major market team and should be able to sign some of the best players out there.
Best way to piss the Yankees/Red Sox off is to start consistently beating them not just on the field, but off of it as well.
Scioscialist Party of America - Redistributing your defense since 2000.
by Commander_Nate on Nov 22, 2010 1:26 PM PST up reply actions
Part of any contract offer ought to be a picture of the california coast and east coast
in december
by Balls and Strikes on Nov 22, 2010 2:37 PM PST up reply actions
And a pic of Mike Napoli's concubines...
Out on a Friday night in Newport during the same month.
Scioscialist Party of America - Redistributing your defense since 2000.
by Commander_Nate on Nov 22, 2010 3:07 PM PST up reply actions
Yes I realize Beltre is better than Callaspo, but I'd rather pay Crawford...
and keep Callaspo than pay Beltre, deal Callaspo and have to settle for Bobby Abreu in LF. That shit was god awful with him in LF last season. Crawford fills more need of this team.
But hey, why not get them both as I already said. We can lower payroll next year down to 120-125 million, let’s spend for 2011. That way when we beat the Red Sxo and Yankees, we can feel good about not sinking to their level and buying championships. I’d rather grow one.
"You play for Cleveland? I didn't know they still had a team." - Claire Holloway
"Yup, we've got uniforms and everything, it's really great!" - Jake Taylor
ruh roh!
protectedpickprotectedpickprotectedpickprotectedpickprotectedpickprotectedpick
by 2pintsofbooze on Nov 22, 2010 12:06 PM PST up reply actions
After I freely admit I was wrong about Brandon Wood, Howie Kendrick and Scott Kazmir....
Always, never….
Too strong, too emotional, this coming from an emotional poster.
"You play for Cleveland? I didn't know they still had a team." - Claire Holloway
"Yup, we've got uniforms and everything, it's really great!" - Jake Taylor
Well Matt...
you had me at “Adrian Beltre’s Walk Seasons” another fine posts that tells me statistically what I instinctively thought already. Whenever statistics confirm what I believe, they’re great, when they don’t don’t, they’re just Sabremetric bullshit (or they were posted by Stirrups…wait, same thing).
I must not fear. Fear is the mind-killer.
Matt, thanks for the statistical context.
All in all, I hope the Angels sign Beltre and rid themselves of a black hole.
A wise man does not need advice and a fool won't take it.
Matt, you're my hero ::sigh::
Seriously, well done.
I am not a naysayer regarding Beltre’s talent, but I do think there are monetary limits to how much his talent is worth, and my guess (said here repeatedly) is that the Red Sox aren’t going to let him walk. After not making the playoffs for the first time in many seasons, both the Angels and Red Sox are motivated to (A) return to financially lucrative post-season play, and (B) show the fans that the team is in it to win it.
However, the Red Sox simply have greater pools of financial resources to tap than do the Angels. I think the Angels’ front office may go to the wall for Beltre, and find out in the 11th hour that their offer, which they thought was going to seal the deal, has been bettered by another team, a sort of Teixeira redux. The only “advantage” the Angels have is that they play in SoCal, which has been Beltre’s home (though I read somewhere that he sold his home a few weeks ago, I think it was in Bradbury); if that matters to him, then it is still possible to sign Beltre for a price the Angels can afford.
Finally, the section regarding Beltre as a gamer is most convincing, but it doesn’t take into account that, no matter how much desire Beltre has, his body may break down on him. Sort of like Mike Lowell, who is another guy who will suit up with blood on his uniform, there comes a point where the player can’t will it to happen, the body has to be a partner. It should be taken into the equation that Beltre, with the tremendous number of games under his belt, might be facing the nagging injuries (like back problems) seen by long-time 3B.
"I can't tell people what to think or not to think. Their perceptions are their perceptions. We just feel we've taken a step forward. At the end of the day, we have to play 162 games. Once that happens then we'll be able to evaluate the offseason moves."~Tony Reagins, on the Angels' offseason
Beltre has some serious miles on the odometer
He’s currently 27th among active players in games played, ahead of Torii Hunter and Mike Lowell. He’s been in professional baseball since he was 15. I also applaud your analysis, but it doesn’t account for the well documented drop off in performance of players who have played in over 1800 games. I think that may be why the Red Sox, even with television ratings down 36% this year and a restless fan base, still seem to balk at investing more than $50 mil in Beltre at this point.
Age, mileage, and dropoff of a Beltre comp list
I did a search of guys who racked up between 1635 and 2035 games by their age-31 year (Beltre is at 1835). Winnowing that down, I took guys between 31.3 and 52.4 WAR by that age (Beltre’s at 42.5), then eliminated the 1Bmen, DHs and corner outfielders. Left us with this group of 11:
52.4 Alan Trammell SS
51.0 Roberto Alomar 2B
50.3 Buddy Bell 3B
49.7 Cesar Cedeno CF
48.5 Joe Torre C/3B
47.2 Vada Pinson CF
47.1 Brooks Robinson 3B
46.1 Ted Simmons C
41.8 Willie Davis CF
36.3 Curt Flood CF
31.3 Edgar Renteria SS
So at what age & mileage did they drop off? By my eyeballing, here’s a list (games is the # at the start of their drop-off year):
Ag Game Name
29 1435 Pinson
30 1430 Cedeno
31 1722 Renteria
33 1827 Bell (though he was solid at 34, with a 3.2 WAR)
33 1835 Trammell (though he was great at 35, with a 4.4 WAR in 112 games)
34 1954 Simmons
34 1955 Torre
34 2034 Alomar
35 2105 Davis
38 2657 Robinson
Not conclusive, obviously, but interesting. I sure as hell wouldn’t guarantee any 5th year.
With a Boras client, geography matters little.
Money matters much. It’s part of the deal when clients sign with Boras – why else would a client sign with him unless they want an agent who will play scorched-earth hardball to get the most money? There are plenty of other agents who can play nice to get you to a “quality of life” environment.
If I stay within my mechanics, I can turn the corner and build upon this success.
by The_Question on Nov 20, 2010 1:22 PM PST up reply actions
It could be argued that most players don't care where they play
They’re making hay while the sun shines, knowing their professional career is often a very narrow opportunity to earn the income to last them for the remainder of their life.
Beltre, on the other hand, has grossed about $90M over his career thus far. It is anybody’s guess how highly he values total contract value among decision points, but it is entirely possible that he doesn’t need to maximize his earnings as much as he does to maximize the amount of time spent in the presence of his wife and children.
"I can't tell people what to think or not to think. Their perceptions are their perceptions. We just feel we've taken a step forward. At the end of the day, we have to play 162 games. Once that happens then we'll be able to evaluate the offseason moves."~Tony Reagins, on the Angels' offseason
by George Kaplan on Nov 20, 2010 11:22 PM PST up reply actions
And he wants 5 years, 90 Million
He won’t get that but damn will he be a tough sign
BOURJOS BOURJOS BOURJOS BOURJOS
Matt - Thanks
I feel pretty honored that you would write a long rebuttal in response to my comments on Adrian Beltre. That’s very flattering.
I actually think very highly of Adrian Beltre. I enjoy watching him play in a tough/rugged manner. My whole point was, Adrian Beltre isn’t worth a really long $64M contract (thanks Oakland). He’d be a nice bat in the lineup & a superb defender. He’d be a good clubhouse guy. But when you consider his age it’s hard to think he’ll repeat his ‘04 or ’10 season in the next 4 to 6 years. He might do it once. It seems far more realistic to expect something like his 2006 to 2008 seasons for most of that contract. Those numbers aren’t worth $64M. Not even close.
Thanks for writing this – it was a great read. I only wish my wife & kids thought enough of the things I said to take the time to present a good argument in return.
Go Huskers! Go Halos! Tuck Fexas!
I think the point was...
he doesn’t need to repeat the MVP type seasons of ’10 and ’04 to be worth the contract. As long as he stays along the lines of his career stats then his presence is worthwhile.
go long with extenze...i do
by angelsownredsux on Nov 20, 2010 12:14 PM PST up reply actions
The title alone is better than most posts.
You’re writing is the reason I come back to HH.
You are what you type.
I'm thinking he needs to start writing professionally
Why hide that bright light under a basket here?
I think there might be some openings for Matt at Mother Jones.
"I can't tell people what to think or not to think. Their perceptions are their perceptions. We just feel we've taken a step forward. At the end of the day, we have to play 162 games. Once that happens then we'll be able to evaluate the offseason moves."~Tony Reagins, on the Angels' offseason
by George Kaplan on Nov 20, 2010 10:27 AM PST up reply actions
All right, so what happens when we do toss out Beltre’s walk years (including, to be accurate, his 2009)? You get a guy who for 9 full seasons averaged this:
G PA AB R H 2B 3B HR RBI SB/C BB SO BA OBP SLG OPS+ WAR
149 614 560 72 148 31 3 21 80 10/4 44 98 .264 .311 .441 101 2.8
Yeah, definitely not average. Oh wait….
Also the argument that he has always played in a pitchers park isn’t a fantastic one because if he does sign with the Angels he will be calling yet another pitchers park his home. So that trend won’t change.
All right, so what happens when we do toss out Beltre’s walk years (including, to be accurate, his 2009)? You get a guy who for 9 full seasons averaged this:
G PA AB R H 2B 3B HR RBI SB/C BB SO BA OBP SLG OPS+ WAR
149 614 560 72 148 31 3 21 80 10/4 44 98 .264 .311 .441 101 2.8
for 15 Million dollars a year.
.311 OBP – 15 Million Dollars a year
44 Walks to 98 Strikeouts- 15 Million dollars a year
.264- 15 Million Dollars a year
Sweet.
Sorry, but you actually got me OFF the Beltre bandwagon with this post.
I brought sexy back, but they only gave me store credit....
Pretty big difference between Safeco, pre-renovation Dodger Stadium, and Big A
But glad to give you more ammunition!
Dude the air is like, thick and stuff, at the Big A
Dont you know?
I brought sexy back, but they only gave me store credit....
So you actually think he is worth 3/45+ or 4/60+?
I brought sexy back, but they only gave me store credit....
To be clear
I dont dislike Beltre. I like him as a ballplayer, and would like to have him on the Angels.
But the sticker price is a little much.
I brought sexy back, but they only gave me store credit....
My thoughts exactly. Weird parallel universe we find ourselves in these days.
For .270 30 DB 20 HR, because of the market and our slight need, sure I’d shell our 10 million. But when he’s asking well over 15, no freakin way.
"You play for Cleveland? I didn't know they still had a team." - Claire Holloway
"Yup, we've got uniforms and everything, it's really great!" - Jake Taylor
Number of seasons Beltre has had 50 or less combined 2Bs/HRs? Four
In 1999, 2001, 2002, and (injury-marred) 2009. This while playing 12 of 13 full seasons in ballparks much harder to hit in than the Big A.
As for our need being “slight,” I’d refer you to the production we received at the 3B position last year, even subtracting Brandon Wood. It’s an open spot, and (unlike every open spot except for LF) there is no incumbent the team is attached to in any meaningful way. These are precisely the positions you jack up after a .500 season, if indeed you are interested in winning.
Ok now name me the number of seasons Beltre has been age 33 or older....
GReat, he was a solid player in his late twenties and early 30’s. I’ll congratualte you if he somehow miraculously gets better at age 33-36 than he was 27-29.
"You play for Cleveland? I didn't know they still had a team." - Claire Holloway
"Yup, we've got uniforms and everything, it's really great!" - Jake Taylor
Who are you arguing with?
I said at the end of this post that worried over age-based decline is a perfectly respectable reason to oppose signing Beltre. And I have never argued in any context, ever, that a player would be better at 33-36 than 27-29.
No you aren't and I don't wish to put words in your mouth.
You simply want to PAY Beltre like he’ll be better at age 33-36. I understand that sometimes the market demands it, but in the end, Callaspo is still just now entering his physical prime and is being paid league minimum. After this arb, it’ll probably be just under a million.
"You play for Cleveland? I didn't know they still had a team." - Claire Holloway
"Yup, we've got uniforms and everything, it's really great!" - Jake Taylor
Halowood wants to pay Carl Crawford
$20 million or more a year for his age 33 and 34 and 35 seasons.
by Rev Halofan on Nov 21, 2010 12:37 AM PST up reply actions
Yes because Halowood realizes we have nothing in LF and something at 3B
Halowood also realizes that even if Crawford loses a step in the same fashion as Torii Hunter, he’s still hitting .300, he’d still hit 15+ HR’s, he’s still swipe 40+ bases and he’d still be among the best defensive LF in the game.
If Beltre goes back and has another 2009 type of season, were screwed, our options are Brandon Wood or Maicer Izturis (for another year), assuming Beltre = Callaspo trade which it more than likely would. If Crawford fails, we’ve got stop gaps that can fill in for a year (Willits, Pettit, Auer, Trumbo, Rivera or gulp, Abreu) until Mike Trout arrives.
We don’t have a Mike Trout at 3B in our system. We’ve got Luis Jimenez who has serious work to do and is still 3 years away and Kaleb Cowart, who we are’t even sure he’s anything just yet. he may end up being a pitcher for all we know.
"You play for Cleveland? I didn't know they still had a team." - Claire Holloway
"Yup, we've got uniforms and everything, it's really great!" - Jake Taylor
How many times are you going to contradict yourself?
First you say we have nothing in left and something at third. Then you say if Crawford fails, we have someone to fall back on but if Beltre fails, we have nothing to fall back on?
I think you’re just in love with Crawford.
So you're saying
The Angels have some outfield prospects who might be reaching the bigs soon, but no candidates at third base above A ball?
Sounds like this argument favors Beltre over Crawford to me.
Another drunk post by yours truly.
I was trying to construct the other side of the argument and failed miserably. College town man.
"You play for Cleveland? I didn't know they still had a team." - Claire Holloway
"Yup, we've got uniforms and everything, it's really great!" - Jake Taylor
Sounds about right.
Chico is my hometown. Chicoans tend to keep drinking Thursday thru Sunday. I’m good though, I’m only a Friday and Saturday night drinker and only for house parties, I’m done with the bars.
But yeah I’d say that’s probably my 5th or 6th drunken post that I read in the morning and just wonder what the F I was trying to get at.
"You play for Cleveland? I didn't know they still had a team." - Claire Holloway
"Yup, we've got uniforms and everything, it's really great!" - Jake Taylor
just curious?
is there such thing as a neutral park that doesn’t favor either pitchers or hitters, or is it just plain black and white?
go long with extenze...i do
by angelsownredsux on Nov 20, 2010 12:18 PM PST up reply actions
Matt, seriously...
You do know this issue isn’t about the Angels being interested in Adrian Beltre’s services, yet everything to do with negotiating with a man in pressed denim, right?
People that wear pressed denim irk me. It's like who the F do you think you are? You're ruining the entire point of wearing denim.
"You play for Cleveland? I didn't know they still had a team." - Claire Holloway
"Yup, we've got uniforms and everything, it's really great!" - Jake Taylor
Not a big fan of Beltre at all...
But this fanpost makes me appreciate the guy. Otherwise I would just not give a rip about Adrian Beltre.
I love this team.
by Downing Rules on Nov 20, 2010 1:33 PM PST via mobile reply actions
A third baseman with power is a must
Glaus was allowed to go, McPherson didn’t pan out, Wood didn’t pan out….forgot Crawford, sign Beltre
Angels in 2010!
Starting to wonder...
Will it be a slow boil off-season with no Winter Meeting news and January signings or will there be a flood after Turkey day that creates dominoes falling in quick order December 6-10 ???
Here's a related link you might find interesting. It details "offseason moves in the Arte Moreno era."
A wise man does not need advice and a fool won't take it.
Valid Q
I’m going with ‘boils’ — at least in regards to Belly-tre. Crawford? Different matter.
by Big Daddy OB GYN on Nov 20, 2010 3:39 PM PST via mobile up reply actions
It's just a guess
If Congress allows the so-called “Bush tax cuts” to expire Jan 1, there may be an incentive for deals with signing bonuses to close on or before 12/31 to have that money taxed in 2010.
"I can't tell people what to think or not to think. Their perceptions are their perceptions. We just feel we've taken a step forward. At the end of the day, we have to play 162 games. Once that happens then we'll be able to evaluate the offseason moves."~Tony Reagins, on the Angels' offseason
by George Kaplan on Nov 20, 2010 11:30 PM PST up reply actions
people are dying to hear
if those tax cuts get extended.
by Rev Halofan on Nov 21, 2010 12:38 AM PST up reply actions
Taxes are a pertinent issue indeed
Not just the Bush tax cuts (what do you call them, George?), but the CA state tax, which is pretty high and almost certain to get higher. The state tax is becoming an increasing disincentive to playing for a California team.
I said "so-called"...
…to indicate their colloquial name.
The CA state tax is a factor, but the players pay taxes for games played in each state, regardless of the home state of the team they play for. Thus, only teams in Texas and Florida represent some sort of net savings to the players (for the 81 home games), and those states take their pound of flesh in other, more hidden, taxes and fees.
These guys are all paying the taxman, one way or the other. Just be glad you don’t have to file about 9 state tax returns each year.
"I can't tell people what to think or not to think. Their perceptions are their perceptions. We just feel we've taken a step forward. At the end of the day, we have to play 162 games. Once that happens then we'll be able to evaluate the offseason moves."~Tony Reagins, on the Angels' offseason
by George Kaplan on Nov 21, 2010 6:24 AM PST up reply actions
Hey fellas, have you heard the news?
His style is new, but the pay is the same — Heartbreaker.
"Ramírez would fit here." -Sciosc'
Angels
First I like Calypso- Bourjos-Trout & Trumbo—But I also as many others did WOOD-Its a fair guess to say that Figgins was worth much more to us than we thought as was Vladdy-Matsui was a good DH and as Scossia said -“He gave us what we thought he would” And Matsui was also a class guy-BUT we wanna win now yes? All 4 of the rookies above can be and very well might be good or even great but I dont want another year of hope like we had with Wood-I say keep them all and sign-Beltre-Crawford and Soriano-What will the payroll be? About 140 million? The Angels can afford that and they could quite possibly win the division the next 3 to 4 years—Lee could very well still go to Texas and so will Vladdy—So Texas and Oakland both will be tuff for the vext 3 to 4 years-We need all 3 of them and still keep the 4 young guys—I would also keep Napoli in this mix
Try this lineup
C-Napoli
1B-Morales
2b-Kendrick
SS-Aybar
3B-Beltre
LF-Crawford
CF-Bourjos
DH-Abreu
these players used throughout the season on the bench
Conger-Wilson-Isturis-Calypso-Trout-Trumbo-Willitz-Frandson
Well worth the gamble and the money-If we want to keep on winning
Talk's cheap when it ain't your money
Saying the Angels can afford a $140M payroll is a meaningless statement unless you’re prepared to state how the books are to be balanced. Unlike the owners to the north, Arte tries to keep the parking fees and ticket prices for the mainstream seating areas low. There is a reason why the Angels are an insane bargain, and it is because Arte knows he will develop a fan base for the future only if parents can afford to expose their kids to plenty of Angels baseball today.
So, yes, the team could run a payroll of $140M only if prices are raised across the board. That means disenfranchising more of the fan base and turning the stadium experience to the same sort of elite crew as found in Yankee Stadium, where the rank and file fans are largely priced out of attendance.
The alternative is that Arte and his partners will have to take on water for a season or two, betting that the income from post-season play—which would have to be ALCS at minimum, and really WS—to bail out the loss. Arte is a businessman and he can do the math for himself, but I would not be so blithe to say that he can easily afford to run his tab up $20M north of his sweet spot.
"I can't tell people what to think or not to think. Their perceptions are their perceptions. We just feel we've taken a step forward. At the end of the day, we have to play 162 games. Once that happens then we'll be able to evaluate the offseason moves."~Tony Reagins, on the Angels' offseason
by George Kaplan on Nov 21, 2010 7:55 AM PST up reply actions
Angels
Here is the deal—The Angels have been one of the best teams in Baseball for the last 10 years-Something they have NEVER been before-As a life long fan adding these 3 players would almost guarantee dominance for the next 3 to 4 years—-This being said We should keep the payroll at no more than 150 million per year-That is a hell of alot of money —I just dont think the Yankees can continue at 210 or 215 and stay where they are-I wanna see the Yankees spend 220 and NOT make the play-offs!
how come you keep titling your comments with "Angels"?
you’re on an Angels blog, we know the overall subject you’re discussing. :)
protectedpickprotectedpickprotectedpickprotectedpickprotectedpickprotectedpick
by 2pintsofbooze on Nov 21, 2010 10:05 AM PST up reply actions
Angels
Did you hear anything about Curtis Granderson being available? If he is, we should get him.
Warning: The message above may or may not contain sarcasm. Read and interpret at your own risk.
Keep joking
If the Yankees end up signing Crawford, I bet we do trade for him.
I wish someone could write another article with "Adrian Beltre" and "Walk" in the title
That was something other than “Adrian Beltre Does Not Take A Lot Of Walks.” Aggressiveness works when you can sustain a high batting average, but I’m not sure Beltre has the right skills to age gracefully. This is the only reason I can’t get behind a mega-deal for him, same as Crawford. He should age better than Crawford, however, who will be pretty much useless when he slows up.
agree on Crawford
I feel like we will sign him. We will sign him for six years. The final three of those his nickname will be FATGINS.
Loved this piece
Thank you for putting it all in perspective. Well done Matt!
http://truegrich.blogspot.com
http://baseballdocent.blogspot.com
http://twitter.com/truegrich
Callaspo
For all of you touting Callaspo… think about this… Put Callaspo at 2B after Howie is traded.
http://truegrich.blogspot.com
http://baseballdocent.blogspot.com
http://twitter.com/truegrich
No argument here. Callaspo will never be as good as Beltre, but given his capabilities and price, he deserves to be somewhere.
"You play for Cleveland? I didn't know they still had a team." - Claire Holloway
"Yup, we've got uniforms and everything, it's really great!" - Jake Taylor
It has already been stated...
that Callaspo’s defense at 2B is lacking
go long with extenze...i do
by angelsownredsux on Nov 22, 2010 12:42 PM PST up reply actions
Yeah, they also said his defense at 3B was lacking too, but he looked fantastic there last season.
"You play for Cleveland? I didn't know they still had a team." - Claire Holloway
"Yup, we've got uniforms and everything, it's really great!" - Jake Taylor
You know what? Fuck all this talk about callaspo and beltre
I say we acquire prince fuckin fielder and convert him to 3B. He has quinlanesqe type of deceptive speed that sosh likes, he even got a inside the park hr! … idiots…
by HalosBiggestFan on Nov 22, 2010 12:17 PM PST via mobile reply actions
Ive read your comment over and over and ... Huh? Don't get it.. Slow I guess
by HalosBiggestFan on Nov 22, 2010 2:06 PM PST via mobile up reply actions
look up
about 10 comments and you will get the joke
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by 2pintsofbooze on Nov 22, 2010 2:29 PM PST up reply actions
Angels
Lmfao ohhh wow that made me cry..
Angels out..
by HalosBiggestFan on Nov 22, 2010 2:57 PM PST via mobile up reply actions
Angels
That gives me an idea, we should replace spaces in between words with the word “angels”, like so..
Didangelshearangelsaboutangelsthatangelsbitchangelswhoangelsbrokeangelsherangelsneck?
by HalosBiggestFan on Nov 22, 2010 2:58 PM PST via mobile up reply actions
Angels
Thatangelssoundsangelsawfullyangelsdifficultangelstoangelsdoangelsandangelsread
Angels baseball. We do what we must, because we can -- HaloDutch
Angels
I have a great title for a fanpost, but I’m not telling you guys what it is…
Ok, it’s Angels, cause this website is about the Angels, which while a baseball team and not messengers of god, are still a source of religious worship for me.
In summation I am apparently a pagan Angel worshipper who likes the Angels.
Angels
A
N
G
E
L
S
angels
by lightupthehalo29 on Nov 22, 2010 8:04 PM PST up reply actions
Angels
A-N-G-E-L-S! Angels, Angels, Angels!
Scioscialist Party of America - Redistributing your defense since 2000.
by Commander_Nate on Nov 23, 2010 9:02 AM PST up reply actions

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