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Moneyball 2: Attack of Zduriencik

The king is dead*, long live the king!

Oh Billy Beane, some of the sheen (it rhymes!) has certainly been dulled by three losing seasons. As a reflective Angel fan a curious thing has happened recently. Statistical fawn-dom has seamlessly passed from one emperor (Billy Beane) to another (Jack Zduriencik). There are many questions I want to ask about the decade gone – and hope a better blogger or sportswriter than myself will answer – such as, was Moneyball a symptom of the steroid era? Would Moneyball be written about Billy Beane (and his three years of sub .500 final standings) today? Sky Andrecheck posted an interesting article on Thursday if you’re into such topics. In any case you do have to wonder what Theo Epstein thinks of all of this torch passing, as the most successful member of the old SABR four (Ricciardi, Beane, DePodesta, Epstein), not to be confused with the Oceanic five (I’m very excited about the final season of Lost...).

*Not really, Beane actually has had a pretty good 2010 offseason...

Star-divide

 

So we are now being told that defense and base running are the new under-valued commodities*, replacing on base percentage. Wait… is this the same base running and defense that Mike Scioscia has preached for the past decade? Quiet snarky voice in my head, we’re talking about a different defense, called UZR. Who knows, maybe Michael Lewis will write Moneyball 2: Attack of Zduriencik. Another book for Joe Morgan to get worked up about, and a sequel for Brad Pitt to star in (I wonder who would play Jack Z though… Michael Chicklis? It would fit his bad-ass reputation… Jack "the road to justice is twisted" Zduriencik). As the Mariners are the new darlings among AL West predictors, I want to take a look (and a critical swipe) at our competition. So how have Seattle improved? How good are the Mariners actually? Here is my humble narrative of the key issues facing Seattle in 2010 (as a counter to the deluge of projections of how the Angels have got worse or significantly worse depending on who or where you read). 

*Phew! Luckily the baseball and sabermetric community has not managed (yet, of course) to put a value to the Angels greatest under-valued asset. Once people realize we have only managed to win via pure luck we will be doomed to finish in 4th place. Once the value of pure luck goes up, we're gonna have to actually look at signing good players. Rather than lucky ones. 

This is a biased Angels fan account on the current state of the Mariners and on what needs to happen for them to win the AL West:

  • I take great joy in saying this. Seattle were 10 wins better than their Pythagorean projection (75-87) in 2009. No, really. For a while I thought it was only us that managed to outperform our Pythagorean W-L standing. So let me just say what has been said about us regularly for the past decade: Seattle were lucky last year, and they inevitably will regress. Wow. That felt good. Sweet, sweet revenge.
  • The Mariners had two (we had five) players post an OPS over .800 in 2009. One has left. He also happened to be the one that hit 31 HR and 76 RBI, posting a line of .251/.347/.520. Of course I’m talking about Russell Branyan. They replaced him with former Angel, Casey Kotchman. Kotchman showed promise in 2007 but stalled for the Angels in 2008* before disappointing for the Braves (and never getting a chance with the Red Sox). Where once we expected a .300+ batting average and 20+ homers, reality produced a .290 hitter with 15 homer power. He is a great defender though… unfortunately it’s at the least important defensive position in baseball (and easiest to master if Kendry Morales’ rise is any judge). Kotchman needs a career year to offer the same production or WAR as Branyan did last year. That my friends, is statistical fact.

*A curious observation: perception sees Kotchman in 2010 as an under valued asset, one that was picked up cheaply by Jack Z. Well, we got maximum value out of Casey by selling high in 2008 in a trade for Mark Teixeira (that yielded solid production for half a season and 2 draft picks) yet Tony Reagins is often lost in the jostling for the great roster moves award. 

  • Talking about career years, Franklin Gutierrez just had one. If we play the projection card (it’s like asking for help from Spiderman, ‘you only get one’) he outperformed his CHONE projections last year, and is expected to regress according to his 2010 CHONE projections (they are marginally better than his 2009 projections). But I don’t care too much for projections. I only bring it up because the same argument gets used against Erick Aybar and Kendry Morales all the time. The Mariners better hope his UZR defensive ratings hold steady, as this is where his WAR value is mainly derived from. Ahh, variable and unpredictable stats used to generate more variable and unpredictable stats, which then go form the basis for future predictions. If baseball is Wall Street, the projectors are the risk analysis traders*… 

*Taking the analogy to its logical (and very illogical) conclusion the Angels winning seasons must be the economic crash that no one sees coming! Ha. 

  • You know whom the Angels lost this year? John Lackey and his 11 wins, 3.83 ERA and 176 innings (7.09 K/9, 2.96 K/BB, 3.73 FiP). You know whom the Mariners lost this year? Jerrick Bedardburn. Who?! Only the pitcher who produced this line: 13 wins, 2.73 ERA and 216 innings. Wow. Luckily the Mariners have signed Cliff Lee and traded for Ian Snell (he of the more walks then strikeouts 39BB to 37SO) to replace Bedardburn. Luckily we signed Joel Pineiro and traded for Scott Kazmir… oh you get the idea. Lee replaces Bedardburn and the Mariners hope that Ian Snell isn’t the reincarnation of Carlos Silva (he of the more walks than strikeouts 11BB to 10SO. Ha! Statistical irony, love it).
  • What do you do when you lose a team icon and one of the best defensive 3B of the past decade in Adrian Beltre? You replace him with Chone Figgins (which has funnily been Scioscia’s answer to any question following an injury to an Angel from 2002-2009: Garret Anderson injured you say? Replace him with Figgins!). A very good move. I don’t really see this backfiring in 2010 (2013 and 2014 is a different matter). Figgins has better plate awareness and speed than Beltre. Figgins is inferior on defense and slugging (assuming Beltre bounces back from a horrendous hitting 2009). The only issue I would have is that Seattle could probably do with more slugging with the loss/addition of Branyan/Kotchman. Oh, but they have added a slugger
  • Milton F’ing Bradley. How many times must Lou Piniella have said that over the past year? Scratch that, how many managers have not said that when dealing with Bradley. Well, Milton Bradley, your time has come. You are the middle of the order bat in the heart of the Seattle line-up. Forget your struggles last year, you are the man. Wonder how that will screw with his head… will he step up? God knows. Seriously. Some years he gets injured, most years he causes trouble. Some years he hits very well (see 2008 as a Texas Ranger), others he struggles to achieve a .280 average and 15 homeruns. What we do know is that he steps in to replace Ken Griffey as the primary DH and will face the bulk of high leverage situations this year. Think 2-on with 2-out… Project away gentleman! 
  • Random stat alert! SS Jack Wilson career OBP is .002 less than SS Erick Aybar’s AVG of .312 for 2009. Totally irrelevant, but I got bored looking at Jack Wilson’s numbers. Real bored.
  • So fielding. The Mariners are going to be awesome at it. Does fantastic defense lead to titles and championships? Is there a comparable team in baseball history? Can the Mariners reinvent the wheel or will they hit sufficiently to win enough games. We’ve been a solid fielding side since 2002, however the times when we have finished outside of 1st in the division we either didn’t pitch well or hit well. I want some evidence before the coronation that the defensive improvements of the Mariners correlate to more than just picking up undervalued assets and actually correlate to winning (not WAR but wins, as unfashionable as that may sound). The Red Sox are focusing on fielding but at least Mike Cameron, Marco Scuturo, Adrian Beltre et al can hit. The lack of offensive upside (outside of Milton Bradley) should be worrying to Mariners fans. We’ve spread our offensive risks. The Mariners haven’t.

What does this all mean? Well, I believe the Mariners have improved. It will be a tighter and more exciting division for sure. I do think the Angels are still better (but I guess I would say that, wouldn't I?). I hope that the emphasis league-wide on defense will lead to more baseball excitement. I will have a chuckle looking at the Angels 2007 corner infield when the Mariners take to the diamond. So want a projection? I think I’ll just leave that to the experts. They usually get it right. Right? Ok, ok. I’ll give you one prediction. See the Angels PECOTA projection*. Then add ten. I call it the PECOTA +10 principle.

Only applicable to the Angels. 

*In many ways, the most surprising thing about the recent PECOTA projections is not that the Angels are projected to finish last and with the third lowest total of wins in the AL, but that the Mariners aren’t projected at the top as clear favourites for the AL West. As Angel fans we should be used to being overlooked and under-projected by now.

This Fan-Post is authored by an independent fan. Tell us what you think and how you feel.

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Good analysis

This is why I still have the Mariners finishing 3rd this year, although a close third behind an even closer second.

"You gotta have nuts." - Torii Hunter / Part-Time Nemesis of the HH Reply Function

by Commander_Nate on Feb 1, 2010 10:35 AM PST reply actions  

Cheers C_N

Hmm my final standings have the Angels and the Rangers 1 and 2. I was set on the Mariners at 3 and the A’s at 4 but I like the moves by Billy Beane. So i’m torn. The Rangers are the trickiest ones to analyze though. A lot of potential. Injuries could de-rail them or they could get a bounce back from the likes of Josh Hamilton and Vladdi. Which would really make them contenders if their pitching stands up as well as it did last year (definitely not a given).

by TheQuestforMerlin on Feb 1, 2010 7:06 PM PST up reply actions  

Out of curiosity...

Are you English or something?

Just wondering because I’m always interested in hearing how folks from non-baseball countries became fans of the game. I’ve actually converted a few myself. There’s this guy named English_Angel who posts all the time over on the Angels main site who got into the Angels because he’s got like insomnia or something and started watching games late at night on TV over there. Don’t know if that story is true but it made me laugh.

Apologies if I guessed wrong or anything.

"You gotta have nuts." - Torii Hunter / Part-Time Nemesis of the HH Reply Function

by Commander_Nate on Feb 1, 2010 10:29 PM PST up reply actions  

You should work for PECOTA

Yes, I am English. I started following Baseball and the Angels in 1999/2000 I think? The Angels specifically as they were the first team I watched (and win against the Rangers) after understanding the rules etc. After that i was hooked. Played a bit at university, got other friends into it, watched it late night all the time (it was a great little late night insomnia community!). Lived in Chicago for the last two years (am back in the UK at the moment) and got a chance to see a lot of baseball at Wrigley and in the South Side with the White Sox.

I follow baseball a lot but generally i’m a huge sports fan, always have been. Played and watched all different kinds. But baseball is definitely up there in my top 3. And after living in the US, I love the seasonal baseball thing: how me and my friends would play when the weather started to ease up (Chicago winters…). I think sports that are imbedded in a particular culture to be great (hence why i’m a big soccer/football fan).

by TheQuestforMerlin on Feb 3, 2010 9:32 AM PST up reply actions  

Oops

i find sports that are imbedded…

by TheQuestforMerlin on Feb 3, 2010 9:37 AM PST up reply actions  

Nice

Glad to hear you’re so into the sport! It’s cool that you got some of your buddies into it too. I’m guessing you were studying abroad or vacationing when you saw that first game? What station broadcasts games in the UK? I was surprised to learn that one even existed.

I considered trying to watch MLB.tv in the early morning when I was studying in Germany two summers ago, but I was usually smashed and passed out by then. Plus, I didn’t have internet in my particular room.

I’d consider working for PECOTA, but only if it was the first step in my asendance to GM or Commissioner. ;)

"You gotta have nuts." - Torii Hunter / Part-Time Nemesis of the HH Reply Function

by Commander_Nate on Feb 3, 2010 11:23 AM PST up reply actions  

Don't we all wish we were Theo Epstein? Damn him and his luck/ambition/talent

The channel was called channel 5. I don’t think the baseball is still going on (thank god for mlb.tv) which was such a strange decision by channel 5 cause it was really popular. I would be interested to see the viewing figures from the late 90s to late 00s, I bet it increased a large amount. The NFL is still shown on channel 5, they used to show basketball too, but i’m unsure if they still do so.

The show had great banter between the hosts, I really liked it. Informal, unassuming and fun.

As for me, i was doing my 2 year MA at the University of Chicago, which was great (even if their was a lack of campus ‘fun’ compared to what I had in the UK). Love Chicago and the suburbs.

First game was at Wrigley. Cubs vs Reds. Although I watched the Angels play the White Sox whenever the Angels were in town. I do love Wrigley Field, especially during day games. Cubs fan’s have a ‘particular drunken charm’ but I like their passion.

Germany is a great place to get smashed. Berlin rocks soo much. Much more than people realize. How’d you like Germany? Get to see Europe much? I always recommend to see as much of it as possible when over this way.

It’s funny, as much as it costs someone to travel from Chicago to San Fran (which I did), it’s the same for me to go to Madrid, Barcelona, Stockholm, Amsterdam and others while in the UK. I used to go traveling to these cities on the cheap from the ages of 16-24. Getting into Paris nightclubs at 17 (and staying in the red light district) really does give you ‘life experience!’

by TheQuestforMerlin on Feb 3, 2010 12:44 PM PST up reply actions  

Germany was awesome, especially Berlin! Made it to Amsterdam too.

My buddy and I spent a month at the Phillips Universitat in Marburg about an hour outside Frankfurt. We hit Frankfurt a few times and made it to some other places like Heidelberg on field trips with everyone from our program.

After that we went to Berlin for a week and stayed with a German friend of mine who had exchanged at my high school several years before. Berlin was insane! We spent every day just exploring museums and monuments and then getting trashed with our host and his friends after he got out of class for the day. It’s a great city!

Then, we decided to go to Amsterdam for our last weekend. Couldn’t book a room for the first night because we waited so long before deciding to go and it was mid-summer. So, we drank ’til about six in the morning our last night in Berlin, rode 7 hours by train to Amsterdam, stored our stuff in the station and then attempted to find a last minute vacancy or simply stay up wandering the Red Light District ’til the next day.

We made it ‘til about 4 AM when we ended up at this bar and were pretty much passing out on our stools watching the Olympics with this Australian guy and trying to strike up a conversation with the super-hot, super-friendly Dutch girl who was bartending. At this point we ran out of money and we stumbled out of the bar and ended up trying to go to sleep on the balcony of this dockhouse on one of the canals. Needless to say the Amsterdam Police didn’t like that. After slurring my way through an explanation that we couldn’t find a room for the night the cops laughed at us and told us to stick around the train station where it was safer. We couldn’t check into our room for the next night until noon. It was the craziest 48 hours of my life.

We flew home out of Frankfurt the following week. I loved the whole trip and wish we could have made it to Austria, Czech Rep., Ireland and a few more if we had the cash. I was just starting to get a practical hold of the 1+ broken up years of German I had taken in the US too. I could read and understand it pretty well, and I felt like after a few more weeks I could have been having more in depth conversations. I wanna go back one of these days and see more.

How does the MLB.tv feed work over there? Do you get a lot of lag or anything? Hopefully they start putting games back on TV for you.

"You gotta have nuts." - Torii Hunter / Part-Time Nemesis of the HH Reply Function

by Commander_Nate on Feb 3, 2010 1:59 PM PST up reply actions  

Northwestern

Keeps its foot planted firmly on fun’s neck.

"Sometimes I've believed as many as six impossible things before breakfast."

by LAASurfin on Feb 4, 2010 12:35 AM PST up reply actions  

Updated Rankings

Looks like BP put out their revised rankings with the Halos finishing in second. The team is still a sub .500 team however.

The new projections just make the AL West look pretty much as bad as the AL Central. Has to be rough for the A’s to have fallen all the way from first to third in the projections though.

by HaloFanInDC on Feb 1, 2010 11:03 AM PST reply actions  

Um, WTF?

The Rays finish 10 games better than us? Oakland is better than Seattle? Arizona is better than the Dodgers, Rockies and Giants?

I’m sorry, but no.

"You gotta have nuts." - Torii Hunter / Part-Time Nemesis of the HH Reply Function

by Commander_Nate on Feb 1, 2010 1:16 PM PST up reply actions  

Awww shucks

Why did they post them before they were complete? Interesting decision.

In any case, I still contend my PECOTA +10 prediction to be valid. Gotta stand by the prediction.

by TheQuestforMerlin on Feb 1, 2010 6:30 PM PST up reply actions  

Good stuff

That there is good stuff. Yes, sir. I like it.

http://twitter.com/truegrich

by True Grich on Feb 1, 2010 12:19 PM PST reply actions  

Cheers

Cheers True Grich. Funnily enough, I looked at your Jered Weaver comment/fan post today and went on your website and saw you had a very similar piece! I enjoyed yours.

by TheQuestforMerlin on Feb 1, 2010 6:41 PM PST up reply actions  

I ranked the M's second

Of course behind the Angels, from whom I expect a goodly 95 wins

Seattle has the best 1-2 punch in baseball as I can see it, but after that it’s not so steady, and while defense and pitching are great things to have, you have to have SOME offense to be truly ready to achieve (ask the GIANTS). And the Mariners have two great top of the order hitters before they fall off a cliff.

R.I.P. Nick Adenhart - Always an Angel

by Kernel on Feb 1, 2010 12:20 PM PST reply actions  

There is reason to be reserved in projecting the M's 1-2 punch.

I believe that it is, as you say, the best combo in baseball. But Cliff Lee is coming off a career-high 270+ innings from last year (adding ST, regular and post-season) which is much more than his previous high.

There doesn’t appear to be any reason for concern, since his stuff held up quite well throughout the ’09 campaign, but you have to at least keep one eye on his health status.

Beyond that, there are quite a few question marks for every team in the division. Oakland should have the longest shot of all, but Texas is a young team that performed better than expected in pitching and defense, the Angels did experience a pair of significant losses and replaced them with modest question marks themselves, and the M’s are looking pretty poor on the offensive side of the ball.

All told, it really is going to make for a fun season. There are too many “ifs” to go into for each team, but when it’s all said and done, I think the primary determining factor is going to be health. Key players in the division (Ichiro, Felix, Lee, Kinsler, Hamilton, Kazmir, Pineiro, Hunter, Abreu) are going to determine the outcome not so much based on how well or poorly they play, but based on how often they’re on the field.

There is no such thing as innocence, only degrees of guilt.

by misterjonez on Feb 2, 2010 1:38 AM PST up reply actions  

I, for one, am actually looking forward to seeing Lee more often.

When I saw Lee pitch against the Halos back in 2008, admittedly on television, I was totally mystified as to how he was getting away with it. His approach that game seemed to be soft junk after soft junk after soft junk, sprinkled with a random fastball that was nothing dominating. But there it was. A complete game win, no less.

Had I owned the Pittsburgh Pirates, I could have saved America.

by Stirrups on Feb 2, 2010 10:55 AM PST up reply actions  

Same, because I'm hoping the Angels figure out and crush him

If the Yankees could do it and tag him for 5 runs in Game 5 last year, then so can we. He won’t have that Phillies offense backing him anymore either.

Not that it’s going to be easy, but I can hope.

"You gotta have nuts." - Torii Hunter / Part-Time Nemesis of the HH Reply Function

by Commander_Nate on Feb 2, 2010 11:27 AM PST up reply actions  

Two points, non-confrontational ;)

1) The 2010 Angels offense is decidedly not the 2009 Yankees offense. I’ve always liked Kendry Morales (I was hoping the M’s would sign him when he came across), but color me skeptical about his 2009 being a new established performance plateau in the same way I’m concerned about Cliff Lee’s health. Everyone else who rakes in that offense (Hunter, Abreu, Matsui) are decidedly on the wrong side of 30, and a severe collapse is possible for any of them. Abreu less than the other two, but it still exists as a possibility.

2) Cliff Lee will benefit from the near-league-leading defense and spacious Safeco Field, compared to pretty weak D in Philly and a bandbox. I’m not predicting Cy Young, but 15+ wins in 32 starts seems pretty reasonable.

Again, makes for a really interesting race with similar questions for every team.

There is no such thing as innocence, only degrees of guilt.

by misterjonez on Feb 2, 2010 5:12 PM PST up reply actions  

No arguement there

I just want to see it happen! ;)

Between Abreu, Kendry, Rivera, and Napoli there’s enough health if our lineup to keep me satisfied. Plus, if Hunter’s surgery really went as well as they say he should produce just fine.

Will be an interesting race, that’s for sure.

"You gotta have nuts." - Torii Hunter / Part-Time Nemesis of the HH Reply Function

by Commander_Nate on Feb 2, 2010 7:54 PM PST up reply actions  

I'm not sure I would say looking forward to, but you have a point.

A lot of people seem to think the M’s are guranteed to get Cy Young winning Cliff Lee, which seems really unlikely, especially with their offense.

by ~MMP~ on Feb 2, 2010 12:12 PM PST up reply actions  

Do you guys remember how Washburn pitched effectively (and still does)

for so many years with nothing but a seemingly mediocre fastball that he threw too high in the zone? Cliff Lee is like a weird hybrid of that, and Jamie Moyer. I wouldn’t bet on his performance decreasing from the last two years average, I would just worry about his health, which is a legitimate concern.

There is no such thing as innocence, only degrees of guilt.

by misterjonez on Feb 2, 2010 5:13 PM PST up reply actions  

But I don't recall Wash ever having some kind of epiphany year.

Something that just turned him miraculously into something else. Not like Lee had in 2008 when his ERA+ jumped nearly 100 friggin’ points, he cut his HR/9 by 2/3’rds, and cut his BB/9 in half.

It was as if he picked up some magic pixie dust in 2008 and, when I got a chance to see for myself against hitters with which I was familiar, I was interested to witness the impact. I remain mystified, which I why I want to see more of him.

Had I owned the Pittsburgh Pirates, I could have saved America.

by Stirrups on Feb 2, 2010 5:45 PM PST up reply actions  

What I saw...

…in Lee was pinpoint control…almost to rival Greg Maddux. I hadn’t paid much attention to Lee in previous years, so I can’t really compare. But in 2008, he was absolutely nailing the corners.

by sothball on Feb 2, 2010 6:57 PM PST up reply actions  

I don't have links handy, but Lee

did begin throwing his new cutter in 2008 (or maybe 2007) and also gained a tick on his fastball velocity due to a mechanical change in his delivery. But your point about Washburn is a valid one, just not exactly what I was trying to point out.

Washburn succeeded because of really good fastball movement and he could throw strikes in front of a plus defense (both in Seattle and Anaheim). Cliff Lee has better stuff, much better control, and an excellent change-of-speed game.

My only concern is health.

There is no such thing as innocence, only degrees of guilt.

by misterjonez on Feb 3, 2010 4:51 PM PST up reply actions  

I agree with just about all of it

I really dont see the mariners being good this year. My random off the wall projection for the year- Bradley kills any sort of clubhouse comradery that figgins and griffey may try to get going, eventually exploding after a loss in late june that drops them into last place. The mariners implode for the next 3 weeks before releasing bradley after they find him impossible to trade. Eventually making enough of a comeback to finish third with the A’s trading anyone of value come July 31.

by Balls and Strikes on Feb 1, 2010 12:26 PM PST reply actions  

Attack of Moneyball #1 and #2...

1) The A’s trades Aaron Miles and a PTBNL in exchange for Willy Tavares and Adam Rosales. Linkie. According to the article, Taveras was promptly designated for assignment. Why acquire a guy with $4,000,000.00 due to be paid in 2010, and then designate him for assignment? Or was it a mistake and Rosales was designated for assignment?

2) The M’s have signed free agent Ryan Garko to be the right handed compliment to Casey Kotchmann at 1B. Linkie. This guy was an Angel killer a couple of years ago. Hopefully, he’s Richie Sexson 2.0.

These moves have to drastically alter all pre-season projections. Or not.

by sothball on Feb 1, 2010 12:50 PM PST reply actions  

Yeah. I saw that news cycle on item #1 and am left scratching my head. WTF?

As for #2, that is curious. Kotchman is going to be platooned? With The Great Ryan Garko? What kind of offensive team juggernaut is THAT supposed to be powering?

Had I owned the Pittsburgh Pirates, I could have saved America.

by Stirrups on Feb 1, 2010 1:01 PM PST up reply actions  

Still trying to copy the Angels.

This is an attempt to match the 2002 Angel mano a mano a mano between 1B and DH of Shawn Wooten, Scott Spezio, and Brad Fullmer (assuming Mike Carp is somehow added into the equation. That may be a challenge, unless Griffey retires).

And now Oakland has added Gabe Gross! So, that’s it. I quit. The season is over before it starts. We’re doomed!!!!

by sothball on Feb 1, 2010 1:25 PM PST up reply actions  

I believe it's called the Paper Tiger Philosophy

The brainchild of Jack Z and Wakamatsu

1) Acquire one or two good players quickly to make people think you’re serious.

2) Then, acquire as many of the remaining players as possible, regardless of how bad they are, in order to appear revamped and loaded with talent and “strike fear” into opponents.

3) Hope that the multiple risks you took pay off or that sports writers’ hallucinogen-induced predictions can keep you afloat when your offense doesn’t hit for shit most of the year and your aces lose multiple one run games.

But hey, they traded for Cliff Lee and got Milton Bradley, OMGZFTW11

"You gotta have nuts." - Torii Hunter / Part-Time Nemesis of the HH Reply Function

by Commander_Nate on Feb 1, 2010 1:26 PM PST up reply actions  

Oh Snap Jack Z!

Insane. The day I write about Casey Kotchman, they go and ruin it by adding Ryan Garko. Damn you Jack Z!

Oh well, they get a slight offensive bump (if the Cleveland Ryan Garko and not the Giants Ryan Garko show up) as they platoon 1B. However, we’ve seen what happens to Kotchman when he platoons (at the Red Sox and the Braves) and offensively its not good. He seems to need routine and consistent playing time (don’t most MLB players?) to play at his best.

Minimal improvement me thinks.

Re. Rosales, outside of the odd handling of money and Tavares (I haven’t really looked into all of it) I like this move for Beane. But essentially, they’re adding Macier Izturis (in that he can play 3B, 2B and SS I believe) minus any offense. Great versatility though.

by TheQuestforMerlin on Feb 1, 2010 6:38 PM PST up reply actions  

I figured you wouldn't greet this news with enthusiasm...

…regardless, it’s obvious you put a lot of thought and effort into this post. Nice work.

by sothball on Feb 1, 2010 6:43 PM PST up reply actions  

Cheers sothball

I did tried to make it witty and interesting.

But yeah, not a big fan of platoons (I don’t think many Angels fans are, after years of Quinlan, Shane Halter, Jeff Davanon etc). Although I like Ryan Garko as a low cost buy. However he really hasn’t put it together yet and you got to wonder what happened in San Fran. I mean it was set up for him to finally break through, without Victor Martinez and Travis Hafner blocking him. Because the Giants really needed any good offense… but he absolutely bombed. Kinda like Kotchman at the Braves! Oh dear.

by TheQuestforMerlin on Feb 1, 2010 6:59 PM PST up reply actions  

Sometimes, platoons work well.

The Angels had 3 really effective platoons in 2002;
DH – Wooten and Fullmer.
1B – Fullmer and Spezio
2B – Kennedy and Gil.

These platoons gave Scioscia a lot of options. I believe that is part of the magic the Mariners will be attempting to capture with Garko, Kotchmann, Carp, and Griffey.

by sothball on Feb 1, 2010 7:44 PM PST up reply actions  

Ha!

Oh Dave Cameron. The thing is I totally agree with his assessment on the Mariners pythagorean record. It is mightily annoying when people assume a club wins by luck, a sentiment Dave Cameron argued against well (although I’m also not a big fan of projecting via WAR either). Generally I don’t like team projections… just too many variables, and it’s too easy to ignore off model risks and to fall into the hole that is confirmation bias.

I don’t really think that the Mariners were lucky or will inevitable regress. Just being facetious in the face of years of arguments about how lucky the Angels have been. It still happens now, and its incredibly annoying.

by TheQuestforMerlin on Feb 1, 2010 6:51 PM PST up reply actions  

I love how 99% of the people who bring up Moneyball

have no idea what the book was about.

Captain, there are doubt's...

by Match Day 5 on Feb 1, 2010 3:30 PM PST reply actions  

Well, I certainly did read it.

I even went back and read it again so that I could make my own margin notes throughout. I don’t quote it, but I have no quibble with the references. What’s the gripe that I am missing?

Had I owned the Pittsburgh Pirates, I could have saved America.

by Stirrups on Feb 1, 2010 4:19 PM PST up reply actions  

Simple

The book isn’t about On-Base Pct. or Slugging Pct. or any other statistic. It’s about getting the most value out of what you spend. If every team begins to value certain players the same way, “Moneyball” adapts. It’s a separate concept from sabermetrics and the like, but the two were related at the time the book was written because sabermetrical analysis was a valuable tool that few other teams were using.

It’s funny how people always refer to the A’s vs. Angels as “Moneyball” vs. small-ball. I think the Angels have been far and away the best moneyball team since 2002. They get great bullpens out of nowhere and great production out of their system even when their stars get hurt. Granted, they make mistakes and have more money to spend than a lot of small market teams, but still, they get a ton of value from guys they don’t pay a lot for.

by Spird on Feb 1, 2010 6:01 PM PST up reply actions  

Right

The No. 1 point of the book was that Beane had no money to spend. Yet he still put teams out there that won games. Once word got out about his techniques (sabermetics, drafting, trading, etc.) he lost his advantage.

The teams that have the advantage now, in spite of what Selig believes, are the teams that have the money to outbid everyone for the players who rate highest using these more analytical techniques.

Captain, there are doubt's...

by Match Day 5 on Feb 1, 2010 7:49 PM PST up reply actions  

So where does that leave Beane?

The SABERmetric field been leveled. Just like integration in the 50’s and the rise of the South American’s after that, these things have a way of evening out. What’s next? Will it be players from China or India? A new type of training method or perhaps it’s something else entirely?

You are what you type.

by rjcicc on Feb 1, 2010 7:58 PM PST up reply actions  

Rob Neyer commented on this recently

For how much I disdain the lousy d-bag he made a pretty valid point that the new market inefficiency is going to be with older player like Damon and Abreu (Greybeards is the term i believe he used). Everyone is rushing to grab the younger players who they control for longer, have the chance to improve or at least not decline, etc…and the teams ignore players who are in their mid-30’s demanding mid-sized contracts. The argument is that these guys get overlooked because everyone somewhat erroneously projects that their skills will completely disappear (when while they’ll decline they really aren’t going to decline all that much) and that you are going to end up overpaying for them (see Steve Finley). It also seems to me that this might be related to the fear that guys at this age won’t be on the juice anymore and then fall off the map (see again Steve Finley).

by HaloFanInDC on Feb 1, 2010 9:30 PM PST up reply actions  

you're right he was 40 when we signed him

That said the argument is still that teams are now undervaluing older players with average to above average skill sets in favor of young guys hoping that the young guys will produce (although at a high risk of failure) at a much cheaper rate

by HaloFanInDC on Feb 1, 2010 9:36 PM PST up reply actions  

I disagree with Neyer

Graybeards (sounds like a pirate) are of high value right now because the economy has created an environment that will not allow them to getmulti-year contracts. GMJ got his dough because the time was right. It wasn’t for Abreu. That deal worked out because Wall Street was in ruins not because El Ninja knew something the Yankee’s didn’t.

Also, the Finley deal wasn’t that absurd. He was coming off a huge year, and was only guaranteed $14 for two years. We ended u

You are what you type.

by rjcicc on Feb 3, 2010 12:38 AM PST up reply actions  

Funny, I thought greybeards was a Lord of the Rings reference

"You gotta have nuts." - Torii Hunter / Part-Time Nemesis of the HH Reply Function

by Commander_Nate on Feb 3, 2010 8:40 AM PST up reply actions  

No. Greybeards/graybeards is a generic term.

It’s commonly used in computing circles to distinguish us old-school hackers from them n00b13z!

— red floyd
Messing with computers since 1975.

Angels baseball. We do what we must, because we can -- HaloDutch

by red floyd on Feb 3, 2010 10:30 AM PST up reply actions  

Well, that's fair, but I feel that is over working the natural conclusions of their game theory.

Sure, you will get that macro-scale point, but the book was very clear that the leverage that Beane was exploiting to his advantage at that time were sabremetric tools such as (explicitly) OBP and SLG. These were the tactical tools that were supposed to be overlooked by his competitors and where he could find below-market value.

But the book itself did not project upon Beane any power that assured a pipeline of constantly isolating such undervalued skills as a way of assessing ability. If it did, then I simply have forgotten. I recall no premise put forth in the book that Beane would be able to maintain thriftiness and team success once his competitors added metrics such as these to their budget. (In fact, I do seem to recall some references [or critiques?] that alluded to the fact that other teams already had OBP and SLG well understood and Beane was not unique.)

With no strategic vision, and only the tactical edge of sabremetrics presented as the then-current tool to determine his value advantages in the player market, it sure seems fair to me that folks would focus on sabremetrics as the main premise of the book.

Had I owned the Pittsburgh Pirates, I could have saved America.

by Stirrups on Feb 1, 2010 9:28 PM PST up reply actions  

Bravo!

[standing/applauding/grinning]

"Sometimes I've believed as many as six impossible things before breakfast."

by LAASurfin on Feb 1, 2010 4:45 PM PST up reply actions  

That. Is. The. Coolest. Ani. Ever.

Rec’d just for the sake of it.

Had I owned the Pittsburgh Pirates, I could have saved America.

by Stirrups on Feb 1, 2010 9:29 PM PST up reply actions  

great post

You are what you type.

by rjcicc on Feb 1, 2010 7:58 PM PST reply actions  

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