Ken Rosenthal's Realignment Insanity!
Stirrups posted an interesting ESPN article about a month ago, which essentially proposed floating divisions for realignment.
Ken Rosenthal proposed 3 realignment plans, and as he states in the beginning of his article, it's impossible to make everyone happy when it comes to realignment. However, none of his plans are any good, in my humble opinion.
I say add two teams to MLB, making for the first expansion since 1998. There will be 32 teams, and each league will have 16 teams. There are a number of different possibilities for new cities. From past conversations, those cities look to be Portland, Las Vegas, Nashville, Charlotte, OK City, San Antonio.
Each league will have 4 divisions. The Wild Card will be eliminated, and the seeding will be division winners, 4 vs 1, 3 vs 2, and so on.
(Portland and Nashville expansion)
AL East – New York, Boston, Toronto, Baltimore
AL South – Tampa Bay, Texas, Kansas City, Colorado (Switch to AL)
AL North – Chicago, Detroit, Minnesota, Cleveland
AL West – Angels, Arizona (switch to AL), Oakland, Seattle
NL East – New York, Washington, Pittsburgh, Philly
NL South – Nashville (EXPANSION), Houston, Florida, Atlanta
NL North – Milwaukee, Chicago, Cincinnati, St. Louis
NL West – LA Doyers, San Diego, San Francisco, Portland (EXPANSION)
(OKC and San Antonio expansion)
AL East – New York, Boston, Toronto, Baltimore
AL South – Tampa Bay, Texas, Kansas City, San Antonio (EXPANSION)
AL North – Chicago, Detroit, Minnesota, Cleveland
AL West – Angels, Colorado (Switch to AL), Oakland, Seattle
NL East – New York, Washington, Pittsburgh, Philly
NL South – OKC (EXPANSION), Houston, Florida, Atlanta
NL North – Milwaukee, Chicago, Cincinnati, St. Louis
NL West – LA Doyers, San Diego, San Francisco, Arizona
(Las Vegas and Charlotte expansion)
AL East – New York, Boston, Toronto, Baltimore
AL South – Tampa Bay, Texas, Kansas City, Colorado (Switch to AL)
AL North – Chicago, Detroit, Minnesota, Cleveland
AL West – Angels, Las Vegas (EXPANSION) Oakland, Seattle
NL East – New York, Washington, Pittsburgh, Philly
NL South – Charlotte (EXPANSION), Houston, Florida, Atlanta
NL North – Milwaukee, Chicago, Cincinnati, St. Louis
NL West – LA Doyers, San Diego, San Francisco, Arizona
(Portland and San Antonio expansion)
AL East – New York, Boston, Toronto, Baltimore
AL South – Tampa Bay, Colorado (Switch to AL), Kansas City, San Antonio (EXPANSION)
AL North – Chicago, Detroit, Minnesota, Cleveland
AL West – Angels, Arizona (Move to AL) Oakland, Seattle
NL East – New York, Washington, Pittsburgh, Philly
NL South – Texas (Move to NL South), Houston, Florida, Atlanta
NL North – Milwaukee, Chicago, Cincinnati, St. Louis
NL West – LA Doyers, San Diego, San Francisco, Portland (EXPANSION)
Perhaps I missed something, but geographically, these seem to make sense and they also keep major rivalries intact. The only real ugly division would be the AL South, with Tampa Bay sticking out there into the Gulf, but it seems no worse than the distance from Arlington, TX to Seattle, WA, and is definitely better than putting the Red Sox in the Central, as proposed by Rosenthal.
almost 2 years ago
Slasher52
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With a Portland/Nashville expansion, why do you
move two teams to the AL?
Why not just put CO in the NL south (kind of flakey, but hey) and leave AZ where it is, and then put Nashville in the AL South and Portland int he AL West?
Angels baseball. We do what we must, because we can -- HaloDutch
I think Portland would be a better fit in the NL also.
Mainly because most people from Oregon are Seattle fans, putting them in the same division would be rough for fan support I think.
"Precious in the sight of the Lord, is the death of His Saints." - Psalm 116:15 Rest In Peace, Nick.
Bingo
Which is one thing that Rosenthal doesn’t consider in his article. Territorial rights are a big deal. The Nationals invaded the Orioles territory, the Giants are hesitant to let the A’s move to San Jose, and the Mariners do have territorial rights to NW Oregon. That’s the only reason to make sure an expansion team in Portland, if it ever happens, has to be an NL team.
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Ugh
Rosenthal has the Angels joining the National League West with the Dodgers. I would be furious if that ever happened. Slasher52, your ideas may be the best I’ve ever seen for Realignment/Expansion
I wouldn't mind too much.
Getting to play the Dodgers a dozen or more times a year and knocking them out of playoff contention year after year would be the quickest way to change the fan paradigm. I would think it would be the Dodger Fans that would freak at the idea…
"Pie Iesu domine, dona eis requiem".
Expansion destroys sports
dillutes the talent pool by essentially adding 50+ more jobs to the league (way more if you count minor league systems), creates more competition for free agents (hence driving up prices) and eventually leaves MORE teams that are financially struggling at the same time.
Wanna know why the NHL almost disappeared? They over-expanded without thinking of the repercussions.
RIP Nick Adenhart
Well
One of the differences between NHL and MLB is that hockey isn’t actually expanding in popularity around the world. It has a foothold in eastern Europe and Scandinavia, but since the last expansion, more players from Asia have made the bigs, and greater development has occurred in other countries thanks to the World Baseball Classic. There are many players from Korea, Australia, and Latin America who could easily fill the 300-400 or so players that each new organization will need to fill their major and minor league rosters (including Dominican Summer Leagues, etc.).
Pro sports is no different from any other business considering expansion. There must be demand for the service, and there are plenty of markets that would be more than happy to have a new baseball franchise. Even in a stressed economy, it is possible for ownership groups to find the funding necessary to bid for a team and build a stadium, especially if a new team doesn’t start for 3 or 4 years.
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Wrong. Sport is very different from other businesses.
and the idea that different sports succeed in a market means baseball would is false. Portland and San Antonio are tiny markets that would be akin to the A’s or Marlins, something that will not exactly put baseball fever in the locals that have never had or been even mentioned to support a professional baseball team. They support NBA franchises because those teams have been the only game in town for decades.
Oh, and it’s not like communities are just waiting to publicly finance the cost of building baseball stadiums and then add the cost of 81 home game tickets to what they already pay for basketball or college athletics (or, you know..a mortgage)
What exactly is the “demand” for the product? That more Asian players are entering the league doesn’t mean more people in America are not finding ways to consume it. Last I checked, the league has teams losing money and slashing prices across the board.
And again, this is before even mentioning that the league itself has publicly expressed fear that the baseball audience gets older every year as younger audiences are more interested in basketball and football. Dumbing down the talent pool just ensures the overall value of the product is diminished, becomes less entertaining and would basically 86 the sport in the eyes of future audiences.
If these markets were actually an option, teams with stadium issues would be threatening to move there….and nobody has. The A’s would have moved to Portland years ago instead of finding ways to get MLB to allow them to move into the Giants’ granted territory in San Jose
And all of the above is basically meaningless because the only reason it wont happen is that it would require the approval of other owners which will not happen.
RIP Nick Adenhart
by ihearhowie2.0 on Feb 27, 2010 10:43 AM PST up reply actions
Tiny markets?
Completely disagree on that point. One of the reasons why the A’s don’t want to leave the Bay Area is due to the size of it’s market and local area population (5th overall in the nation). San Antonio has a population of nearly 2 million, and it’s TV market has grown significantly. It’s economy has stayed strong throughout this bad economy as well. Portland’s metro is around 2.5 million. These aren’t tiny markets, but the key is to not build giant stadiums (or play in football stadiums in an isolated part of town, as in the case of the Marlins).
Your point about the public financing is very valid, but as we begin to reemerge out of a recession/near depression, this is the time where private investors will be looking to capitalize on solid business ideas, which baseball CAN be if properly planned and executed. Land is more affordable now, and with a pletora of workers available, constructions cost would be lower now than in a period of heavy construction and growth.
The demand for baseball in cities is not related to players. The talent pool has grown and could sustain the addition of 2 franchises, especially if these teams wouldn’t start for another few years.
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how has the talent pool grown?
and you’ve yet to explain to me how expansion HELPS major league baseball.
merging the nba and aba almost killed professional basketball. the NHL adding teams throughout the 90s lead to a diluted product that wasn’t fun to watch on television anymore and they still have no national tv money to this day. Lockouts come about because players refuse to take a paycut even when they’re grossly overpaid to their talent level and the revenues they actually generate.
again, adding two teams just to fix alignment is absolutely ridiculous. there’s 30 teams right now. How about you send the d-backs to the AL West and the Astros to the NL West? Problem solved.
More teams drives up the price for free agents for an inferior product. Guys who should be in AAA would have jobs on major league rosters and all the guys who weren’t signed this offseason WOULD be signed. Less teams = higher quality. More teams = inferior rosters, more franchises to babysit when they fail, higher percentage of revenues to share with more bad teams.
There’s people who study this stuff for a living, not a hobby. If it hasn’t happened, there’s a reason for it.
RIP Nick Adenhart
by ihearhowie2.0 on Feb 27, 2010 2:54 PM PST up reply actions
No, not problem solved.
Moving 1 NL team to the AL will create 2 15 team leagues. Unless you do interleague play year around, 2 teams will have to have a day off every day. That just won’t work.
You are right, there are reasons for why expansion has not occurred yet. The biggest of which was the two major downswings in the economy over the last decade. However, baseball has continued to thrive as the ownerships have tightened their belts. Two brand new teams in (preferably) brand new stadiums in regions that previously did not have a significant MLB presence will rake in revenues for both MLB and the communities. Urban renewal for places like Baltimore, San Francisco, and Seattle (SoDo) has been a great thing for those cities, and it has centered around ballparks. The same thing will happen in Minnesota, Florida, and whenever the Rays get a new home.
Back to the player side of things, your concern about a “inferior” product has some validity, but to think that the number of MLB caliber players has stagnated since the expansion of the D-Backs and Rays in 1998 doesn’t fit. Just as an example, how many Asians played in the MLB in 1997? Not many: Nomo, Hasegawa, and Fat Toad. Ichiro came onto the scene in 2001, and there are about 15 Japanese players in MLB today, and when NPB changes it’s free agent system, more talent will filter through. MLB has players from 17 countries, and scouting departments now have heavy focus on the international game. Don’t forget our own domestic programs like Reviving Baseball in the Inner Cities. Participation by black baseball players dropped rapidly in the late 90s, early 2000s, but have grown healthily since then.
It’s a philosophy thing, and like Dems vs. Repubs, some many never see eye to eye. I believe the talent level will not dip significantly, if at all, should MLB expand in a few years. I see expansion as a win-win for both the cities who gain new teams and for everyone affiliated with MLB.
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The problem, if I understand the math correctly, with assuming expansion
to solve baseball alignment issues is that it would also assume more than $2 billion in capital to pull off. Not to mention the talent drag it would have on the existing teams (such as the Halos) when they lose players in a draft.
"God watches over drunks and third baseman." - the Immortal Leo Durocher, predicting the coming of Brandon Wood...
It probably wouldn't be any more than two players
off everyone’s 40 man roster. Teams would be able to protect their best guys. When there are so many teams already, it doesn’t really thin out that significantly. You do raise a good point with the money. It takes ALOT of cash to make a franchise, build or lease a stadium and turn a profit.
2 off the main roster
and then 2 more entire rosters of minor leaguers.
honestly, the idea of expanding to fix alignment is probably one of the WORST things mlb could ever do and is not worth mentioning. Two teams getting contracted is much more likely. Owners do not want to share revenues with two markets that, if actually viable (which none of the above are for baseball), would be on life support from the get go. In other words, the entire league would be losing money on new teams, while at the same time escalating player salaries and thinning out roster talent in a sport that is already failing to resonate with younger audiences.
But hey, the divisions would make more sense so why not!
RIP Nick Adenhart
by ihearhowie2.0 on Feb 26, 2010 7:20 PM PST up reply actions
You're right
The costs are significant, and it is a fair question whether MLB can find another 80 players (2 teams worth of 40 man rosters), but as I mentioned to ihearhowie2.0, baseball is expanding globally, which would help fill those roster spots. In terms of baseball talent, I think MLB is in a better place to expand than it was in 1993, and definitely more so than 1998.
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I like your thinking Slasher52
But I think it would be a shame to lose the wild card. It keeps a lot of teams (and fans) interested late in the season. I can’t, however, figure out a way to keep it after expansion, short of adding another round od playoffs, which doesn’t seem right.
OK, I'm finally over losing Tex. Thanks Kendry.
Thanks
And I agree, I do like the Wild Card, but adding another division should keep the odds of competition late in the season pretty high. I don’t think another round of playoffs would work, especially with the push to make the first round of playoffs a best of 7, BUT if the season would shorten to 154 games (just a thought), another wildcard round could stuffed in with the first two seeds getting a bye.
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Top team
in each league gets a week-long bye going in the first round of playoffs?
"Precious in the sight of the Lord, is the death of His Saints." - Psalm 116:15 Rest In Peace, Nick.
The top 2 teams would have to get a bye
And that means that the playoffs are going to be another week longer. With the amount of travel and TV days off, I think the playoffs are too long as it is.
1 line siggy line because I was asked nicely. Go Angels! helpfindscottajob@gmail.com
I like the way the NBA does it
Two Conferences, Western and Eastern. You mostly play games against teams in your conference that are geographically closer. You also play every team in the other conference a handful of times
Not Without A Salary Cap
Yes, baseball fever has gripped Portland – they can’t live without a team! Uh, no. And you’d be setting up a franschise and potential fans for YEARS and YEARS of frustration and failire. Let’s fix the foundation of the house [the disparity between small and large market teams and the real problem this creates in retaining fans and profitability in small markets] before we add another wing.
Are we certain that the Marlins, A’s, Royals are even going to survive?
Just Another Halo Victory / Rory Markas 1955 - 2010
I agree with your points
But each of those teams you mention (I’ll add the Pirates and Rays as well) suffer through one or two major issues that inhibit their success. The Royals and Pirates have done a poor job of player development, and the Rays, Marlins, and A’s are in poor home stadium situations. The successful teams, Angels included, have avoided both of those. Player development is obviously controllable, while the stadiums are more of an ownership and economical issue. If the Florida teams and the A’s get new homes, they’ll survive just fine, but it is a question to ponder of what happens if they don’t get new facilities.
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Well the Marlins
are getting their own stadium in 2011 so that franchise looks to be heading in the right direction.
True
But it was quite a battle. Joe Robbie/Pro Player/Whatever the hell its called now Stadium is not a good place for MLB, and they should never have been allowed to join the league with a stadium like that. Oh well, they have two world championships…they’ve done something right on the player development side.
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My idea
Rangers to AL Central.
Portland expansion to AL West (call them the Pioneers or something)
2nd expansion in Montreal, Salt Lake, Vegas, or Calgary to AL East or West as appropriate.
That way each league is 16 teams and the only existing team that has to move out of their current division is the Rangers.
"You gotta have nuts." - Torii Hunter / Part-Time Nemesis of the HH Reply Function
I would approve of any expansion team
not named after an animal / insect.
What do you need a fancy suit for, Charlie, you ain't got no job to wear it to.
by clover_black on Feb 27, 2010 4:14 PM PST up reply actions
I agree
That Canada should get a second team again. Canada has the market for it. Just not in Montreal. Calgary could work.
The easiest switch (to me)
would be to put Houston into the NL West (considering Texas is in the AL West this makes some sense) and moving Arizona into the AL West. That way the NL West would be:
San Francisco
Houston
L.A.
San Diego
Colorado
and the AL West:
Angels
Seattle
Oakland
Arizona
Texas
Boom. Every division has 5 teams without anyone expanding and stepping on territorial rights or dumping money into a weak market. Also, as an Angel fan I think it’s kind of absurd that the AL has 14 teams and the NL has 16 teams. I’d like to see that evened out.
Sorry Seattle, 2010 still isn't your year.
Also, no AL team needs to give up their DH.
Sorry Seattle, 2010 still isn't your year.
by Teixeira Who? on Feb 28, 2010 3:39 AM PST up reply actions
The problem
is that we’d have to have an interleauge series going at all times which doesn’t seem right.
Wouldn't it suck
For the Angels to play the Nationals the final week of the season? It probably wouldn’t work out that way, but it is a possibility. Someone would have to play the other league…can’t schedule the Royals at the Pirates every year, right?
I would love for the two leagues to be balanced, but the next level for creating balance is at 32. Contraction isn’t going to happen unless something terrible happens to both the economy and baseball.
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I never want to see Interleague all year
The current idea of having about 3-4 weeks of it, where it’s one division vs. one division with a regional/cross-town rival thrown in is alright, but other than that they should save it for the WS and ASG.
There’s a decent handful of cities in the US, especially the Western US, and Canada that could support the addition of 2 more AL teams.
Additionally, I think there’s plenty of talent out there that we won’t see much of a dilution beyond the first expansion season or so, if at all. Baseball is quite strong in The Americas, Carribbean, Japan, Korea, Taiwan, and is growing in Australia, China, etc. There’s plenty of talent. You’d probably see a lot of blocked prospects, like S. Rod, Wood, or Buster Posey get taken in an expansion draft along with all of these middle-aged and old free agents that are left on the FA market every year.
"You gotta have nuts." - Torii Hunter / Part-Time Nemesis of the HH Reply Function
by Commander_Nate on Feb 28, 2010 11:05 AM PST up reply actions
One more point
Has Rosenthal ever looked at a map of the U.S.? What makes Boston potential to be “central” when it’s actually further east than New York.
Also, no one needs to point out the geographical anomaly that is Texas being in the AL West (when it appears to be central). Just because the AL West’s geography is bizarre doesn’t make Rosenthal’s point any less stupid.
Sorry Seattle, 2010 still isn't your year.
Rosenthal Couldn't have been serious
1. 15 team leagues wouldn’t last long.
2. Splitting the BoSox and Yankees just because they have had some recent success is just a wish of Red Sox fans.
What he really wants competitive balance which is unrelated to creating fair divisions with geographic rivalries. Obviously we need either minimum team salaries or regulation for that. The revenue sharing is not enough.
I think there is plenty of talent to support expansion. And given ticket prices there is obviously plenty of fans.
Easiest thing to do is add Houston to the AL West
That gives Texas a division opponent in their region and all MLB divisions 5 teams.
Houston would probably prefer to stay where they are so they can continue competing with the Cardinals and the Cubs, though.
What I’d really like would be for the Angels, Dodgers, Padres, DBacks, Rockies, A’s, Giants, Seattle in the same division or league. I think having the Western teams competing against one another all season long would attract more regional media coverage and lessen the effect of East Coast bias. Divide the country in half and forget about the East until World Series time.
by California Cajun on Mar 4, 2010 10:23 AM PST reply actions 1 recs
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