Torii Hunter - "They're not us", Hideki Matsui Makes Debut: Halolinks
by WiHaloFan on Mar 10, 2010 7:33 AM PST
in Angels News
97 comments
Panel Part III: Efforts to develop black talent in USA insufficient - USATODAY.com
"As African-American players, we have a theory that baseball can go get an imitator and pass them off as us," (Torii) Hunter says. "It's like they had to get some kind of dark faces, so they go to the Dominican or Venezuela because you can get them cheaper. It's like, 'Why should I get this kid from the South Side of Chicago and have Scott Boras represent him and pay him $5 million when you can get a Dominican guy for a bag of chips?'
Craig Calcaterra adds,
Torii Hunter: black Dominican players are "imposters" - HardballTalk - NBC Sports
But this notion that today's diversity in baseball is some sort of sham and that black Dominican players are "impostors" is beyond repugnant. No, they're not from the U.S., but if Jose Reyes and Vladimir Guerrero aren't black, I'm not sure anyone is.
Uh oh. I think Hunter, the most out-spoken and most quoted Angel, just started a shit storm. And as usual, I agree with Calcaterra's take on Hunter's comments (read the entire post).
UPDATE: Torii Hunter responds to all of this on his blog - Torii's Storiis
Angels' bottom line getting a 'Matsui bump' - The Orange County Register
Of more immediate help to the Angels' bottom line were the calls the Angels' sales and marketing department began getting from Japanese companies interested in signing on as sponsors and advertising at Angel Stadium. "We did not anticipate getting calls as quickly as we did after signing Hideki," Moreno said. Those calls have translated into sponsorships totaling "in the high six figures," according to Carpino.
Well played Mr. Moreno, well played. If you've wondered how big of a deal Matsui is in Japan, check out his museum. Be sure to take the virtual tour and "Please click the number of the point to be worried about." 
via marinerds.com
Hideki Matsui finally gets to swing the bat - latimes.com
Matsui struck out and singled to center before being lifted for a pinch-runner in the Angels' win over the Padres."Just seeing him swing the bat was very reassuring," Scioscia said. "Obviously, it's going to take time for him to get his timing, but he looked good. He broke out of the box well."
Below are a couple articles written by Evan Brunell from NESN. It's interesting to read what writers who cover other teams have to say about the Angels, but in these to articles, I found out a couple things that should have been covered by the local media. My apologizes if it has, but I read a ton of stuff everyday, and never read about Tory Hernandez's (Angels Manager of Baseball Operations) take on John Lackey or Joel Pineiro.
Angels Consider Loss of John Lackey to Red Sox 'Minor' - NESN.com
"Everyone is saying that we don't have a No. 1 starter to match up against other No. 1 starters in the postseason," Hernandez continued, addressing a popular storyline for the Angels in spring training. "However, Lackey was never someone that matched up against the No. 1 starters that people seem to be referring to."
New-Look Angels Excited About 2010 Season - Los Angeles Angels - NESN.com
To make up for the absence of Lackey, the Angels brought in former Red Sox pitcher Joel Pineiro, who was yet another Dave Duncan success story in St. Louis."We think he learned how to pitch [in St. Louis]," Hernandez said. "He knows to trust his stuff and pound the zone."
Boo-yah Tory Hernandez! Dissing on Lackey! An interesting tidbit in the Lackey article is, Lackey will get paid the league minimum if he has Tommy John surgery. The Sox were worried about Lackey's elbow and included that to his contract.
K-Rod: I have no idea who Gossage is
Francisco Rodriguez is just fine with Goose Gossage's assessment of him. Gossage referred to K-Rod as a "clown" in a recent interview, citing Rodriguez's penchant for theatrics on the mound, but Rodriguez shrugged off Gossage's comment Tuesday. "I have no idea who he is," Rodriguez said.
That's okay K-Rod, in a few years Gossage won't remember who you are.
MLB in discussions over 'floating realignment' - Sporting News
Under the concept, teams would be able to decide where they'd want to play in a given season based on geography, payroll and willingness to contend. SI.com, citing an unnamed source who is familiar with the discussions, notes that a team couldn't move into a division more than two time zones beyond its home city — say, the Rays or Orioles trying to join the NL West.
Good lord. I have an idea, how about no leagues or divisions? 30 teams play a balanced schedule and the top eight make the playoffs? Nah, that idea sucks too.
The Kindle Blog Report: Halos Heaven (The Los Angeles Angels of Anaheim)
What are its flaws? Well, the blog is updated every day, which is a plus...but a lot of those updates aren't accessible to people with a Kindle. They consist of Youtube videos, or game threads which don't feed over, and so on. On the other hand, if you're a die-hard Angels fan, once the season starts you may want all this material delivered to your door on a regular basis. So I leave that decision up to you!
I wish I had a Kindle, but my desire for one went down a bit if it doesn't get Halos Heaven.
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Uh-Oh
Torii’s gonna get POUNDED for his comments…and I laughed at both K-Rod’s comment and lackey’s comment.
WOOT WOOT! Baseball's back!
by Figgi4life on Mar 10, 2010 7:44 AM PST via mobile reply actions
I don't know Torii.... Sounds a little off to me.
I think baseball goes and gets the best talent for the lowest price every which way they can. It has nothing to do with the color of a guys skin.
With that said I still appreciate Torii for being so open instead of giving the same old canned interviews. So I’m not mad at ya Torii!
Happy Birthday to the ground!
Ugh...
I see where Torii is going but that is definitely going to reap some backlash…
expect a high, fast one to the head the next time you face Felix Hernandez, buddy.
Halos & Clips...must have something to do with the color red and jaded pasts...
by BryanHarvey'sMoustache on Mar 10, 2010 8:03 AM PST reply actions
Alrght
I’ gonna try to pretend Torii never said this. I can understand what he means but saying they’re imposters and not black are very poor words to choose.
On a Matsui note...
Wholly crap! Arte you are the man! A freaking museum? The Angels are now going to be Japan’s favorite team. Anaheim will be a Japanese Mecca. The house of Matsui and (the original) Disneyland. The city of Anaheim owes Arte a discount for the new tourist dollars he just brought them!
Happy Birthday to the ground!
I Just Took a Tour of that Museum
So Matsui weighed over 3,900 grams at birth. I needed to know that for my Matsui diary. And he has type ‘O’ blood. See, it’s information like that that most museums don’t give you, which really makes Matsui’s museum so, well, informative. THE MAN IS A GOD!
Barber Shop Talk
Not supposed to say stuff like that in front of a microphone, Torii, even if you truly believe it. Just ask Reggie White.
"All I need are some tasty waves, a cool buzz, and I'm fine."
Reggie White was the first comparison I thought of too
Nothing like gross generalizations and stereotypes to ignite a media firestorm!
Yeah, he shouldn’t have said it and is going to get pounded for it, but I believe I’ve read that the Dominican players don’t consider THEMSELVES black. I have read that they consider it a put down reserved specifically for the Haitians. They identify as latinos, not black, regardless of the historical facts. All that being said, Torii really stepped in it this time. He shouldn’t have mentioned Vlad by name…..that just comes off as tasteless, buddy.
Torii
STFU.
Dude says stupid shit like this at least once a year, and always gets a pass. Remember his little outburst regarding only black players can wear Jackie Robinson’s number?
Torii, let it marinate in your brain, the kid from south side chicago doesn’t give a shit about baseball. The Dominican does. Speaking on behalf of people you don’t even know = ignorant.
You’re a funny guy though, so, congratulations on that.
What do you need a fancy suit for, Charlie, you ain't got no job to wear it to.
Torii Hunter is 100% RIGHT and it's got nothing to do with race
At first when I read the little snippets, I thought he was wrong, but then I actually went and read both articles. The USA Today article clearly states what he and Scott Boras and the rest of the panel were talking about, while the NBC Sports piece I felt missed the point by completely focusing on the race issue.
What Torii Hunter (and Boras, et al.) were addressing is outsourcing.
Yes, that same concept that has taken many American jobs and sent them overseas to places where workers earn fewer wages, get less benefits, work longer hours and have less rights is affecting baseball as well. And, our center fielder hit it right on the head. These quotes sum up his point and prove that he isn’t making this a race issue:
“A lot of people don’t understand that the percentage of white players in the game is down, too,” Hunter says.
‘Why should I get this kid from the South Side of Chicago and have Scott Boras represent him and pay him $5 million when you can get a Dominican guy for a bag of chips?’ …“I’m telling you, it’s sad.”
He is absolutley right. When given the choice between an American kid and a foreign kid of comparable talent levels, the majority of the time, it’s the foreign kid who gets signed because he is usually cheaper. He is cheaper because as a non-US player, he exists outside the current draft system and all of the other mechanisms that are designed to protect the rights of US-born amateur players. This is the same reason your car or your shoes are now assembled in Mexico or China or wherever, because all of the unions and labor laws that are in place to protect American workers don’t exist over there, so the company is able to increase it’s bottom line. Granted the overall economic impact of outsourcing in baseball isn’t that significant, but the principle is the same and the effect is the same for the American workers (the kid from the South Side in this case).
This doesn’t happen in football and other sports because they’ve made the same draft and signing rules apply to everyone. Guess what, you see a ton of American kids and a fair amount of foreigners in these sports. When the Collective Bargaining Agreement comes up for re-negotation (2011 I believe) baseball needs to fix this glaring problem. It will help BOTH American and foreign players and fix the issue that Torii and the others were addressing. American players will get better treatment in the draft and a fair shot at making the big leagues. Foreign players will be paid fair wages for their talent instead of being paid “a bag of chips” as Hunter so eloquently put it.
What I think Torii meant by bringing up the race thing: He did not mean guys like Vlad aren’t actually the color black. Thinking this is what he meant is misguided and possibly a cop out just to make a racial issue out of this. This is where I think the NBC article totally swung and missed. Torii Hunter was speaking in cultural terms.
Other than skin color perhaps, a black kid from an American city like Hunter or Granderson were growing up, has virtually nothing in common culturally with a player from the Dominican or Venezuela or anywhere else. Torii is a black American, culturally speaking. In the same way, I am white and so is your average Frenchman. However, we aren’t even remotely the same culturally. That is what Torii was getting at and he is absolutely right. The current system is squeezing American kids, black, white, brown or otherwise out of the game and outsourcing more of the available roster spots to non-US kids via unfair signing practices. The idea that this is a race issue is the only bullcrap that exists in this. It’s a labor issue.
Torii might not have said this using the proper vocabulary or the most politically correct terms, but he is a ballplayer, not a Political Science or Economics degree holder. I am, I know what he was trying to say, and I give him mad props for having the balls to say it frankly and publicly.
Good job, Torii!!! If you read this blog, feel free to use my post to defend yourself.
"You gotta have nuts." - Torii Hunter / Part-Time Nemesis of the HH Reply Function
by Commander_Nate on Mar 10, 2010 9:00 AM PST reply actions 6 recs
Yep
Here comes the PC army to tear Torri down for what is another excellent job of mis-quoting by the media.
And about the race thing, he is also correct. Just because there is a lot of players with dark skin color does not mean they are African American. Meaning black players from the United States. Someone stating “If Valdimir Guerrero isnt black I dont know who is” is not only missing the point but also mind-numbingly stupid.
Vladimir Guerrero’s skin is dark, he is not an African American. He is from the Dominican. Torri Hunter is 100% factually correct. Just because he is discussing race does not mean you should immediately crate a shit storm.
Simply put, just because there are a lot of dark skin players imported from Latin American countries does not mean its ok for black kids to be completely neglected by baseball in America.
Suck it PC Douches.
I brought sexy back, but they only gave me store credit....
by PhiSlamma on Mar 10, 2010 9:24 AM PST up reply actions 1 recs
If Vladimir is black,
then i guess we can call him Russian too…
Now stuck in Colorado Springs
by stuck in Romania on Mar 10, 2010 10:10 AM PST up reply actions
But Vlad is Black,
he’s just not African-American. I believe ours is the only country where its citizens title themselves by their ethnicity-country of birth, i,e, African-American, or Latin-American. I guess one could technically call Vlad African-Dominican. But I get Torii’s point, as PhiSlamma and Commander_Nate have so well explained.
Thanks for this post, as I only read the second one. I will go back and read the original now.
I love this team.
by Downing Rules on Mar 10, 2010 10:18 AM PST up reply actions
We need scouting done in the USA and more funds at the local level here in the USA...
Why is all of this player development happening overseas? Torii and Boras are right.
I think that Torii didn’t need to say that “Vladimir Guerrero is not black…” I contend that he meant to say that Vlad is not African American.
I love this team.
by Downing Rules on Mar 10, 2010 10:33 AM PST up reply actions
It would be relatively easy to expand participation
I teach in an inner city middle school, and we’re trying to put a baseball league together this year. The kids are hungry for sports of all kinds, but lack of equipment, facilities, leagues, etc. make baseball too damned hard to do. You put that infrastructure in place when the kids are young enough, and you’ll get a lot more multi-sport athletes who will pursue baseball into high school, college and beyond.
by rghan on Mar 10, 2010 10:48 AM PST up reply actions 2 recs
liability
I work as a volunteer in the Waipio Little League here in Hawaii, and I get personal threats against me once in awhile because of the way certain players are “favored”. I don’t even want to imagine what it is like in the more advanced leagues.
Everyone wants to get paid now in the States. While in other cultures just given the chance is enough incentive to try and excel.
A lot of the younger American’s will not listen to what is being told to them by their leader’s, Torii for one comes to mind.
While a player raised in a different culture might be easier to handle because of the way they learn values.
Can you imagine an American playing on a plot of land not fit for construction with a branch for a bat; rock for a ball; and a old rag wrapped around their hand as a glove. Who needs equipment when all you want to do is play ball, and getting paid for it is the gravy. We used to be like that in the States. Now we only know one word. Showmedamoney.
by eyespy on Mar 10, 2010 12:25 PM PST up reply actions 2 recs
Then have the parents sign agreements limiting your league's liability
"You gotta have nuts." - Torii Hunter / Part-Time Nemesis of the HH Reply Function
by Commander_Nate on Mar 10, 2010 2:20 PM PST up reply actions
Bastards!
"You gotta have nuts." - Torii Hunter / Part-Time Nemesis of the HH Reply Function
by Commander_Nate on Mar 10, 2010 3:48 PM PST up reply actions
Yes
Except Kenny is logic and common sense. ;)
"You gotta have nuts." - Torii Hunter / Part-Time Nemesis of the HH Reply Function
by Commander_Nate on Mar 10, 2010 10:18 PM PST up reply actions
Logic is a little bird twittering among the trees.
Logic is a pretty flower that smells bad.
Are your circuits in order? Your ears are green!
Angels baseball. We do what we must, because we can -- HaloDutch
The NBC article argues just the opposite though...
and suggests that foreign born players are actually more expensive precisely because they can skip the draft and sign massive FA contracts that pay out more than a draftee. Kendry Morales and Arnoldis Chapman are evidence of this. That doesn’t suggest that some young kids in latin armerica sign on to training camps for cheap, but the same happens in the states’ minor leagues.
Also, to suggest that the draft somehow protects players isn’t accurate. The draft benefits the teams, particularly the lousy ones and not the players. Free agency benefits players, not being conscripted into service by a team for 6 years with no option to play elsewhere.
A big part of the reason teams “outsource” is because there is a larger pool of talented players in Latin America. This is because all of their athletes are playing either baseball or soccer instead of football, basketball, tennis, boxing or golf. The NBC article points out that African-American kids who play second string safety in the SEC could probably be playing second base at AAA and maybe the majors someday.
I agree with you that Torii’s comments were taken out of context. I also don’t think the guy is malicious. But he’s misguided here because complaining about race is just as wrong-headed as complaining about outsourcing.
The two Cuban players and the upper echelon Japanese players ...
are evidence of your fact.
However, the typical lower end utility player is not getting some big fat contract. How many Kendry’s, Chapman’s, or Matsuzaka’s are there out there compared to the plethora of Maicer Izturis’s?
I love this team.
by Downing Rules on Mar 10, 2010 10:35 AM PST up reply actions
Even so....
I’d like to see the data but I wonder if the mid range FA from Latin America are making more out of the gate than a 6th round draft pick from the states.
I'd like to see that too
Either way though, I guarantee it treats the two groups amateur players differently, which is wrong.
"You gotta have nuts." - Torii Hunter / Part-Time Nemesis of the HH Reply Function
by Commander_Nate on Mar 10, 2010 10:42 AM PST up reply actions
I agree with that but as I said in my first post...
I don’t see how putting latin american players in the draft can possibly help the players. I’d like to see the numbers though.
For every Kendry and Chapman there are likely dozens who get signed for "chips"
And it’s these spots that get taken from US-born players. For every Ervin Santana or Jose Arredondo that got signed as an amateur FA, there is probably a US player who could’ve competed for the spot but was passed over because he was subject to the draft system and likely would have been paid more.
I’m not saying foreign players shouldn’t be signed. There’s great talent out there and I like seeing it. The problem is that there is great talent here too and it’s being missed because players fall under two completely different recruitment systems based on nothing other than where they hold citizenship. To be fair, the recruitment process needs to be the same for ALL amateur players.
Part of the reason many kids go to the NBA or NFL is because they don’t get drafted by MLB or at least not as high, and see a better chance in the other sports.
The draft system only benefits teams now because it allows them to divide their labor force (the players) into two groups and play them off against each other. If the draft applied to everyone, teams wouldn’t be able to do this and it would benefit the players like it’s supposed to.
"You gotta have nuts." - Torii Hunter / Part-Time Nemesis of the HH Reply Function
by Commander_Nate on Mar 10, 2010 10:39 AM PST up reply actions
“And it’s these spots that get taken from US-born players. For every Ervin Santana or Jose Arredondo that got signed as an amateur FA, there is probably a US player who could’ve competed for the spot but was passed over because he was subject to the draft system and likely would have been paid more.”
Again I’d like to see evidence of both these claims. I don’t think it’s about money. I think it’s about talent. Latin American players are playing baseball exclusively under the tutelage of major league scouts from the age of 12. A lot of quality African-American athletes go play other sports instead.
I’d love to see numbers on this as well. For guys drafted outside of the first 45 picks or so, the draft is not all that lucrative. For every Strasburg or Matzek or heck, even Trout, there are a bunch of 5th – 25th rounders who make pittances, just like the foreign players. It would be informative to see the average dollars spent for the first 6 years of their career for draftees vs. free agent foreign players.
As far as Torii’s actual statement, I sympathize somewhat. He’s defending his cultural legacy, and he does a lot of charity work in inner cities, presumably with predominantly black kids. So he’s in the trenches, and it’s hard for us to truly relate to that. On the other hand, it’s hard to interpret his comments only as a condemnation of outsourcing and not as having serious racial overtones. He almost certainly meant well, at least in terms of his passion for making baseball better and more popular amongst Americans, but it didn’t come off all that well.
Defending maligned chants since 2009
I don't agree with just about everything you said
The domestic draft is already up to 50 rounds long and teams can sign undrafted free agents after that. So basically your US players that aren’t being given a chance would be 51st and above draft choices. Yea I can see how we aren’t giving American players chances……
Also those 51st and above draft choices are signed for next to nothing as well. Listening to interview with players and minor leaguers, sometimes all they get signed for is a bus or plane ticket to wherever they are suppose to report to.
It's more about pay though
Because of the draft system, agents are able to set certain levels of salary expectations based on how high their client gets drafted.
With international FA’s, teams are basically able to go here’s our offer, take it or leave it, regardless of skill level. The only leverage these players have is if other teams are interested and willing to get in a bidding war. You mainly see this with super-prospects like Aroldis Chapman. Your obscure, middle of the road types, you don’t hear or see much about, and typically I’m betting they don’t sign for as much as they would have been able to get if they were drafted.
In the end, my point is the same. It’s unfair and BS to have two different recruiting systems for the same professional league.
"You gotta have nuts." - Torii Hunter / Part-Time Nemesis of the HH Reply Function
by Commander_Nate on Mar 10, 2010 12:04 PM PST up reply actions
I respectfully disagree with part of that, Nate.
This quote
“It’s like they had to get some kind of dark faces, so they go to the Dominican or Venezuela because you can get them cheaper,”
Is not referring to culture. Torii is insinuating, just as Calcaterra points out, that MLB is involved in some kind of plot to keep black players out of game by getting “other” dark faces to replace them.
~Till the Halo burns out...
Really?
I don’t see that insinuation…at all.
It doesn’t sound at all like he’s claiming there to be a “plot to keep black players out.” Rather, it seems he’s saying that the MLB wants to operate under the guise of having tapped into a cultural base by doing what’s easier, rather than doing the work necessary to get African-Americans more interested in the sport.
He’s not saying MLB wants black players OUT…he’s saying they want the IMPRESSION that they’re a big part of the sport, but know that there’s more work to be done in trying to create in-roads to the African American community (particularly in inner-city environments) than there is in reaching out to impoverished island nations which already: a) have a national affinity for the sport, and b) have a strong desire to leave their nation to better provide for its people elsewhere.
Quite simply, Torii wants MLB to do more to reach African-Americans and get them involved in the game…especially as their numbers continue to decline. And he’s more or less right that they don’t do much anymore…but like any “product” trying to market itself to a mass audience, MLB is happy to create an impression of something if it knows it would be too much work to actually achieve the desired result.
by Caseys Kiss of Death on Mar 10, 2010 11:39 AM PST up reply actions
That would still suggest Torii is saying that MLB is actively cultivating the false impression that it is chock-full of black players.
Which, as far as I can tell, it is not. In any case though, he seems to recognize that he chose his phrasing poorly, so that’s the end of it as far as I’m concerned.
~Till the Halo burns out...
It was over for me before it started
gonna go yawn now, BRB.
by Caseys Kiss of Death on Mar 10, 2010 5:10 PM PST up reply actions
What he is insinuating...
Is that “black” or “other dark faces” are not “African-Americans”. He is right. He just said it the way some average guy on the street would have said it instead of the way a politician or a media pundit would have. Torii makes millions of dollars playing baseball, but he still probably views the world through the prism of Pine Bluff, Arkansas.
He’s not claiming superiority over black players from outside the US, just that they are different.
"You gotta have nuts." - Torii Hunter / Part-Time Nemesis of the HH Reply Function
by Commander_Nate on Mar 10, 2010 11:55 AM PST up reply actions
I'm actually fine with that aspect of it. My only reprove is the impression I got that Torii believes MLB is actively trying
to pretend that there is no cultural difference between African Americans and Hispanics, which I don’t believe to be true.
~Till the Halo burns out...
I forget
Did we give Matsui a two year deal? He’s got 445 career imo’s. So if he is here for two we will see a big influx of the Japan based fan in the 2011 season. So invest in your season tickets for resale next year, for we will be the hot ticket for that milestone to the original delicacy to the King of Monsters.
I understand what Torii is saying
he just had an extremely poor choice of words. Instead of saying “imposters”, he could’ve said something like – “Dominican players have dark skin, but they’re not African American players. It’s not the same as a black player from the U.S.” That’s saying the same thing, but in a completely different tone.
So yes, he’ll get pounded by the media for this, even though he’s technically right. And I actually agree with him as well… he just needs to think about his choice of words.
Thank you, Nick Adenhart. You will always be remembered. #34
I agree 100%
With howie. He couldve used different words that make it sound a lot better.
9 Gold Gloves and counting...
by Gold Glove Hunter 48 on Mar 10, 2010 9:54 AM PST via mobile up reply actions
exactly
most of us here agree with what Torii is saying. He just could’ve said it in a different way.
Thank you, Nick Adenhart. You will always be remembered. #34
by howiestheman on Mar 10, 2010 10:52 AM PST up reply actions
A dominican guy
Would have never said that.
by Quinlan's Goofy Swing on Mar 10, 2010 10:05 AM PST reply actions
What is the deal with Japanese and Blood type
Under GODZILLA!!"S stats it does his height, weight, and blood type?
Do we need to know that he is type “o”?
FATHER OF A WONDERFUL SON VLADIMIR
Sorry not named after Guerrero...but would be cool
Just in case he needs to be fused with fresh blood of infants and virgins to power us to a ring.
I brought sexy back, but they only gave me store credit....
just like astrology
certain blood types have an adverse affect on the way your life will run. But it is all subject to who interprets it.
I clicked on that
museum link too, and I thought the same thing!! But if it IS like astrology to the Japanese, I can understand why they include that. I still wonder if he was a type A or B, if he’d be the same player.. LOL
Seems pretty obvious to me what Torii is saying
I can’t for the life of me see what the big deal is other than maybe he could have chosen to use one word differently.
This doesn’t matter.
At all.
by Caseys Kiss of Death on Mar 10, 2010 10:33 AM PST reply actions
black = african american is the only word he messed up.
agree with you.
I love this team.
by Downing Rules on Mar 10, 2010 10:36 AM PST up reply actions
I wonder how this is going to play
with his teammate Eric Aybar…. (particularly saying that “Black” Dominican players are “imposters”)
May not go over well with the two gentlemen he will be playing the outfield with this year either, for that matter….
He should be pissed off
The false insinuation that he was being racist against other players of his skin color has overshadowed his actual argument, which was a good one.
Once again, it appears some in the media have decided to go the “Form Over Substance” route.
"You gotta have nuts." - Torii Hunter / Part-Time Nemesis of the HH Reply Function
by Commander_Nate on Mar 10, 2010 1:38 PM PST up reply actions
That's interesting
Not the Torii part (well, that is too), but that article references Calcaterra. The post on the OC Register site also references Calcaterra. The only reason I had the Calcaterra link was because it led me to the USAToday article. Otherwise site NBC site wouldn’t have been mentioned.
I wonder if either (or both) got their tip to the story from here since both have the same links as this one?
Kudos to Torii for addressing it quickly & forthrightly
Hopefully he’ll never sit down at a table with media weasels & Scott Boras ever again.
"All I need are some tasty waves, a cool buzz, and I'm fine."
by Quad Fin Rider on Mar 10, 2010 2:05 PM PST up reply actions
Wow.
And here I thought that the story was that MLB finally woke up a couple of years ago and realized that they could no longer depend on other organizations to develop young talent, since they seem to have lost the American black athletes to other things. So they decided to be pro-active and take the lead and start with inner-city baseball. And they decided to start right here in South-Central LA.
Thankfully we have Torii here to set me straight. It’s been a conspiracy all along. Probably involving underground tunnels.
"God watches over drunks and third baseman." - the Immortal Leo Durocher, predicting the coming of Brandon Wood...
Gossage calling out Rivera also
“When I was inducted into the Hall of Fame, I was told that I had 53 saves with seven-plus outs,” Gossage, a longtime reliever for the Yankees, said to the site. “I was told that Mariano had one and Trevor Hoffman had two. So I think that says it in a nutshell.”
Play Wood already. Willits sucks.
Hey Gossage, STFU!
I actually agreed with him about K-Rod and Pap and some of those guys. I also agree that baseball used to be different back in his day. It was actually kinda funny.
But, this isn’t the first time he’s said this stuff publicly and none of it has changed since the last time. Now he just sounds like an old man griping about everything under the sun from his front porch. He got into the HoF, what more does he want?
"You gotta have nuts." - Torii Hunter / Part-Time Nemesis of the HH Reply Function
by Commander_Nate on Mar 10, 2010 2:03 PM PST up reply actions
He wants you off his lawn!!!
"God watches over drunks and third baseman." - the Immortal Leo Durocher, predicting the coming of Brandon Wood...
Gossage comes off as an old geiser
can can’t get over how the world has changed since the good old days.
Yes, he spouts off at the same time every day.
like clockwork.
I love this team.
by Downing Rules on Mar 10, 2010 3:37 PM PST up reply actions
Wow...
I can’t say I’m angry, just embarassed for the organization.
Arte must be pulling all his beard hair out and poor Sosh now has to wonder how fractured the club house can become given…oh that there are a few Latin American players.
An no matter what any of those players might say publicly, we won’t really know for a while. Hopefully if Hunter is the type of person he has portrayed before this mess, those players will have a true sense of that and there won’t be rifts.
Bad day when he makes Ozzie sound like a road scholar.
I’m just hoping he made a ton of incredibly bad judgements all at once and there isn’t any real racism there.
Nah, Ozzie Guillen is still a moron
And his comments on the issue prove it.
Torii could’ve “calibrated his words more carefully”, but that’s about it.
"You gotta have nuts." - Torii Hunter / Part-Time Nemesis of the HH Reply Function
by Commander_Nate on Mar 10, 2010 4:14 PM PST up reply actions
I didn't say Ozzie isn't a moron...
I specifically said “Bad day when he makes Ozzie sound like a road scholar.”
But to clarify, it’s what Ozzie said about Hunters comments and what he said was 100% correct:
From the ESPN article on their front page:
“White Sox manager Ozzie Guillen, a Venezuelan, scoffed at Hunter’s remarks before Wednesday’s game against the Oakland Athletics. Angels spokesman Eric Kay said Hunter will not further discuss the subject.
“I was laughing because when he said, `They go there and sign for potato chips,’ I said, `Well, we’ve got Chapman. They gave him $12 million. [Cincinnati actually agreed to a $30.25 million, six-year contract with pitcher Aroldis Chapman.] We’ve got [prospect Dayan] Viciedo. They gave him $10 million. I remember in my time, one scout goes [to Venezuela and] 30 players show up. Now, 30 scouts go there and one player shows up. In our country, we play baseball. That’s no choice. Here you can play basketball, you can be another athlete, you can do so many things when you have the opportunity. And that’s why there’s not many [African-American] players out there.”
Mind you, he still sounds bad saying it...
in that his numbers are off, his grammar is bad, etc….but the spirit of his message is entirely correct.
Ozzie knows damn well...
That for every Aroldis Chapman super-prospect who signs for a ton of money, there are several more international free agents who sign for less than what they would get if they were drafted according to their talent.
Ozzie just wanted to take the opportunity to flap his gums in public again and used a handful of special cases to try and describe the entire community of amateur international players. That’s why I disagree with him and still think he was being a moron with his statement.
"You gotta have nuts." - Torii Hunter / Part-Time Nemesis of the HH Reply Function
by Commander_Nate on Mar 10, 2010 4:46 PM PST up reply actions
Well it's hard to defend him from being a moron...
…but the MLB has pay structures in place for a reason. It doesn’t matter if you are white, black, or brown.
And Ozzie is 100% correct on why there are less African American players in the MLB than the NFL or NBA.
If I was blessed with the god-given talent to play all 3, I’d probably go after the NBA first, then the NFL.
This is a whole other debate, but although your career can last longer in MLB from a health standpoint, it’s much harder to produce in consistently on talent alone.
We all know how big the mental side of it is, etc.
Really?
The NFL has had a tight salary cap, very restrictive free agency, lower salaries, shorter careers, higher physical damage including serious risk of permanent cognitive damage, lingering chronic ailments for the balance of your lifetime, no meaningful pension system, the option to be cut without pay or any meaningful residual benefits at any time, and a worthless list of alternative leagues to go to once the NFL declares you to be a reject.
You would really pick that over a career in baseball?
"God watches over drunks and third baseman." - the Immortal Leo Durocher, predicting the coming of Brandon Wood...
Well, we're talking hypotheticals so who knows...
…but I’d imagine (not having the talent), that many positions in the NFL are easier to reproduce performance on consistently if you are athletic and big enough.
The thing with baseball is that you can be the most athletic, ‘toolsy’ person and just not succeed. I realize this happens in the NFL too, especially with QB. There is a big mental part to the game. So you might make it to the bigs and only last a couple years.
Also for me personally, I love the NFL so if I had the ability to do it, hell yes. You have to follow your passion and that would be mine. The NBA would be third on my list and baseball second if I could play them all.
I tried Googling any meaningful statistic as to how the numbers break down of where prominent African American athletes are going in terms of professional sports. No luck finding anything.
Forgot to ask...
But Bo Jackson was my idol for a while because he could do what I dreamed of – play both the NFL and the MLB.
Which do you think he would have done better at long term in terms of legacy if not for his medical condition(s)?
It’s so amazing to think the dude was an all-star in both. Not sure we’ll ever see that again in our lifetimes.
IIRC, Jackson did not have a medical condition. His hip deteriroated due to blood loss after a tackle.
Your question is about his legacy. Who do you think is more historic: Dave Winfield or Barry Sanders? Yes, I pick those two on purpose. Winfield was a multi-sport athletic phenom who enjoyed a very long baseball career. Sanders retired at what was thought to be premature.
Sanders retired at the age of 31. Jackson got injured at the age of 28. Realistically, NFL running backs hit the wall at 30. Neither Sanders nor Jackson had too much left in their NFL tank. So Bo did not actually have some longer term career still ahead of him.
But let’s be real. Bo was far superior to his other football athletes than he was versus his other baseball athletes. And when we think of greatness we think of Sanders before Winfield. So, for Bo, I say football is his legacy even despite his shorter career.
"God watches over drunks and third baseman." - the Immortal Leo Durocher, predicting the coming of Brandon Wood...
I don't need no stinkin' statistics
without even looking, I’m pretty confident the african-american percentage make-up of major american sports can be ranked as such:
-NBA
-NFL
-MLB
I’m not sure if hockey has broken the color barrier yet, so it’s gotta be 4th.
by Caseys Kiss of Death on Mar 10, 2010 7:35 PM PST up reply actions
Well that was my point..
…although I didn’t want to throw it out there and someone say “LINK!!!217&”
So why do you think that order is the way it is?
Haha yeah hockey has, though so few watch it, no one noticed anyway.
road scholar...
Please forgive me…I have to help here: Rhodes Scholar & Rhodes Scholarship
I'm glad Torii isn't a white guy
Because this whole thing then might as well have been murder-suicide for his career and the perception of the Angels organization. And that’s the irony in this whole fiasco—Torii’s race is the really the only thing protecting him from further chastisement in the public forum. Yeah it already is being blown out of proportion, yeah Torii had a point, but shit man. Race has always been a divisive issue in this country; it’s just one of those areas where public figures have to be careful what they say.
I am not sure that it is over for Torii.
I get the point hat he had hoped to make, that there is a difference between African-Dominicans and African-Venezuelans and African-Americans. And the difference is nationality.
But he didn’t speak of national origin and national heritage and national citizenship. He said that blacks from other countries are not blacks. He said they are imposters.
Just because some folks are going to let him walk because he misspoke, I am not sure that everyone is going to overlook the overt racism in his actual choice of words. For the latter, this is going to have to devolve into accusations of being misquoted.
Meanwhile, oddly enough, I end up agreeing with Ozzie Guillen.
"God watches over drunks and third baseman." - the Immortal Leo Durocher, predicting the coming of Brandon Wood...
I think it's all going to depend...
…on how the LA (Latina American) players on the club deal with it.
There are quite a few. And you know no matter what, when they hang together amongst themselves, they are going to talk about it…and I’m sure more than one probably won’t take lightly to it.
Torii definitely f'd up
My point was just that if you leave Torii’s words the same, but instead make him a white guy then we’d be looking at John Rocker redux, and no one wants that.
There are some double standards about racism in this country, and that’s all I was really pointing out. I agree with you here Stirrups, Torii had a point, but it’s hard not to see him coming off slightly racist. Hopefully it doesn’t become an issue in the clubhouse; that’s all I’m really concerned about.
If the picture above is Matsui's Museum,
I would assume the staute out front is a statue of Matsui.
Why is the statue of the batter batting right handed?
The statue is of Matsui as a child
Matsui was originally a right-handed hitter who later switched to batting left
"All I need are some tasty waves, a cool buzz, and I'm fine."
by Quad Fin Rider on Mar 11, 2010 8:04 AM PST up reply actions
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