Joe Mauer or Mike Trout?
by RallyMonkey5 on Jul 14, 2010 8:53 AM PDT
in Minor Leagues
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First thing I want to do is state that I am not proposing a trade, or that the Twins or Angels would consider this. This is just a thought experiment to provide some entertainment as we suffer through a day without baseball.
So if you could have either player, but not both, do you want Joe Mauer or Mike Trout? And why?
With Trout you get an 18 year old with unlimited potential, with the stats to stand out in the low minors and the tools to make the scouts drool. Once he's ready for the majors, he will be cheap (by baseball standards) for his first 6 years. But be warned, the development of prospects is an uncertain game, as Angel fans know all too well.
With Mauer, you get a guy with the production and tools in the prime of his career. He's 27 years old and on a path for the Hall of Fame. The only problem, Joe is expensive. For the next 8 years he will make more than 20 million per season. That's 20 million dollars you could spend on other players if you had a cheap young star instead.
With both players, you get quality guys with no baggage who are dedicated to the game. Who do you want?
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Bird in the hand!
Mauer power for sure.
A special talent at the catching position is especially rare.
"If he raced his pregnant wife he'd finish third"
Tommy Lasorda on catcher Mike Scioscia
by sheisalovelyladyandmyapologiestoher on Jul 14, 2010 9:02 AM PDT reply actions
Mauer no question
Proven player and former MVP at a position that is arguably the most difficult to find talent
Mauer and it is not even close
Trout is an unknown at this point. Mauer is a HOFer
44fan claims that it is a fact Vlad will get hurt. Here is to your "borrowed time" Vlad. You were, are, and will be the man Vlad.
Mauer
certified talent
Aybar is a nowhere man, Sitting in his Nowhere Land, Making all his nowhere plans for nobody.
by princeton11loveshalos on Jul 14, 2010 9:23 AM PDT reply actions
Sicne everybody is jumping on Mauer's bandwagon here
which is expected, I’m going to look at the first couple years in the minors just to compare.
Joe Mauer- 2001 Rk Ball- 32 games .400 AVG. 44 H 6 2B 2 3B 0 HR 14 R 14 RBI 4 SB
2002 A Ball- 110 games .302 AVG. 124 H 23 2B 1 3B 4 HR 62 RBI 61 BB 42 SO
Mike Trout- 2009 Rk Ball- 39 games .360 AVG. 59 H 7 2B 7 3B 1 HR 29 R 25 RBI 13 SB
2010 A Ball- 81 games .362 AVG. 113 H 19 2B 7 3B 6 HR 39 RBI 45 SB 46 BB 52 SO
I am not going to pick either one, what I am going t say is that we have a Mauer type player already with us. Hopefully he keeps growing as a ball player and becomes our CF Mauer!
Broken Wood...
I'll play devil's advocate
I’d take Mike Trout and I’d say it’s not even really close. Here’s why….
A) Mike Trout as mentioned will cost relatively nothing for a good long time whereas Mauer is already in the midst of a mega deal. So when comparing it is not Mike Trout vs Joe Mauer. It is Mike Trout and 20 million dollars to spend for like 6 years vs Joe Mauer. So to put names to the 20 million dollars. Would you guys really not take Mike Trout and Carl Crawford or someone similar over Mauer?
B) Too many people are putting too much weight in what is likely Mauer’s career year. His OPS+ last year was an outstanding 170 however he’s only had one other season over 140 and this year it is at 114.
C) By the time our 6 years of Trout and somebody hoperfully really nice vs Mauer expires…. Mauer will be a 33 year old catcher, whereas Trout will just then be entering his prime…….
D) I think a lot of Angels fans are skeptical of prospects because of Wood and Dmac….. Those guys had MAJOR issues and MAJOR detractors when they were in the minors. Even opposing fans in our own division are fawning over Trout. He’s fast, he’s a great defender, he controls the strikezone (unlike our prospects of the past), he has great makeup, and he is probably in the best shape of any teenager in baseball.
E) His last name is Trout which is a fish name…..
by MH252525 on Jul 14, 2010 9:56 AM PDT reply actions 1 recs
After reading everything
and agreeing with all the points the only one that really truly matters in the ed, is that his last name ends with Trout….which is a fish!
Broken Wood...
by angelskid2210 on Jul 14, 2010 10:02 AM PDT up reply actions
I'll take YOUR logic.
We never had either before.
There are a lot of lottery ticket buyers out there; I am not one. However, I feel the fever the kid is generating. If the deal were proposed to us by Minnesota (at the end of this season), I would have to think long and hard before choosing Trout, primarily because of your Reason “A”. The stats provided by angelskid2210 above are also interesting tidbits.
It’s easy for me to bet with other people’s money (OPM), but in the end I have a safety net: The knowledge that Minnesota is not going to make that call.
Point A is an interesting thought experiment.
If Trout turns out to be all that is hoped for, he will end up being paid Mauer money anyway. In fact, due to inflation and the prospect of an extended career versus the wear and tear of catching duties, probably more. The only difference between the two would be the calendar years wherein those paychecks are issued. Mauer makes big money starting today. Trout makes big money starting in several years. Because of age, Mauer’s contract and value end sooner. Because of age, Trout’s contract and value end later. The $$$ curves should be the same, but one peaks at a different point in time from the other.
BUT…
It is too late for the Halos to have “Productive Mauer” during Mauer’s cheap years. Mauer is expensive now, and he is expensive forever. The Angels would have “Productive Trout” during Trout’s cheap years, granting them more financial resources to prop up the team elsewhere.
BUT…
Once Trout is done with his cheap years, there is merely a minor chance that he remains an Angel. The Halos will be but one of many bidders for his services. Meanwhile, Mauer is locked into his contract for life. Grabbing Mauer means grabbing his contract and owning his services without fear of loss (other than through injury, of course). You might be more constrained with resources for building elsewhere, but you can build safely, and over a longer period of time, without worrying about building around somebody that might eventually be lost.
"Wastin away again in Minor-Leaguer-Ville..."
I definitely take Trout....
1. We already have decent major league catchers in Napoli and Mathis.
2. We’re gonna need help in the OF very soon, those guys are getting older.
3. Money. I take Mike Trout and 20 million a year vs Mauer and nothing else.
4. Mauer hasn’t proven that last year wasn’t a fluke. It may have been.
Put it like this, Trout plus 20 million is the equivilent of Trout, Pineiro, Rodney and Rivera. I take those 4 players combined over the one Joe Mauer.
We betrayed Vlad, the greatest Angel. Epic fail.
I think this is your first post where you didn't mention Kohn
W6G -- Unless there's a good trade on the table.
by RexTookMyStash on Jul 14, 2010 11:33 AM PDT up reply actions
:)
.
W6G -- Unless there's a good trade on the table.
by RexTookMyStash on Jul 14, 2010 11:37 AM PDT up reply actions
Mauer has won a couple of batting titles as a catcher...
…pretty sure it’s not a fluke at this point
I see red people
Nah man, not the BA, the power.
Sorry I should have been more specific.
We betrayed Vlad, the greatest Angel. Epic fail.
Only two seasons with over 140 OPS+? Why that's....
… more than Ryan Howard, Adrian Gonzales, Matt Holliday, Jason Bay, Chase Utley, Justin Morneau, Scott Rolen, Carlos Pena, or Derek Jeter, each of whom is older than Mauer. And none of those sonsabitches play catcher.
I will take inner circle Hall of Fame trajectory at a key defensive position in his prime over just about any A-ball player you can dream up. Even Mike Trout.
I'm just pointing out that last year was for Mauer very likely his career year
No doubt he’s an outstanding offensive catcher although this year 114 is not eye dropping good.
Yes he plays a key defensive position but CF is a key defensive position as well, and Trout will save a lot of runs with his glove just like Mauer does.
Although another thing I didn’t put in my original post is that Trout’s speed keeps him from double plays. I know he bats leadoff so that reduces his double plays, but do you know how many he’s hit into this year? 1, yes only 1 double play. Mauer on the other hand is 3rd in the AL even with spending time on the DL. That’s a lot more outs over the course of the season that Trout gives his team to play with over Mauer.
Brandon Wood.
Unlimited upside.
Rory Markas. Alex Chilton. 2010, you suck!
by LazorkoRules on Jul 14, 2010 10:51 AM PDT reply actions 1 recs
Kinda OT but: I think it's apparent the FO knows it has to make a move.
If it didn’t I think it’d be safe to say they’re hedging, pretty much signing off this season, and hoping for some juicy free agent signing or production out of some of the guys they’re thinking about bringing up.
I used to think differently but at this point, I wouldn’t lose any sleep if we lost Napoli, Saunders, Kaz, Frandsen, Wood, Kendrick, or any A-ball leaguer aside from Trout.
I think it’s explicit that we’re missing pieces that would make us a playoff team and if we could leverage some of our talent, without mortgaging our future success, then it would behoove to Reagins and Co. to make said moves, as it is their job to design our team for success.
W6G
by RexTookMyStash on Jul 14, 2010 11:29 AM PDT reply actions
we could easily lose 3 catchers and still be ok
that is the position we are deepest at, and that is the position we should be dealing from.
trade ’em all, just keep Conger. HBHS!!!
by 2pintsofbooze on Jul 14, 2010 12:53 PM PDT up reply actions
You always wanna be 3 deep at catcher.....
Even if the 3rd is in AAA. So we could afford to lose 2, not 3. Currently our depth chart is listed as Mathis, Napoli, Wilson, Budde, Conger.
Mathis wouldn’t be overly valuable as a trade chip, because every team has a defensive specialist. Napoli would be valuable because of his bat. Wilson might get you a little, as he can hit a little and play some D, but he wouldn’t really net anything more than Mathis. Budde wouldn’t get you anything. Conger would be the most valuable.
I think we can trade Napoli and Wilson and get something of value.
We betrayed Vlad, the greatest Angel. Epic fail.
Except Mathis isn't a defensive specialist.
But I agree that he has no trade value.
I am fan various years ago.
by Fred Fredrix on Jul 15, 2010 8:28 AM PDT up reply actions
Joe Mauer
if you had Joe “baby jesus” Mauer, everywhere you went people would admire you and want to be your friend.
I hate the New York Yankees
I thought you were banned.
W6G -- Unless there's a good trade on the table.
by RexTookMyStash on Jul 14, 2010 11:32 AM PDT up reply actions
Yep, in fact this is how Halowood sees HalosHeaven
by ~MMP~ on Jul 14, 2010 12:02 PM PDT up reply actions 5 recs
Hahahahh.
But why did u leave jt snow? And golf haha
by HalosBiggestFan on Jul 14, 2010 12:14 PM PDT via mobile up reply actions
The financial implications of adding Mauer to the Angels 2011 payroll
In the hypothetical situation of adding Joe Mauer, I wanted to determine the impact it would have on the Angels 2011 payroll.
Mauer will be paid $23 million in 2011.
The Angels payroll obligations for 2011: $80.9 million
This $80.9 million represents money the Angels must payout. Why is it so high? Oblgations for 2011 include: Torii ($18.5 million), GMJ ($11.4 million) and Kazmir ($12 million).
So simply adding Mauer ($23 m) to the Angels 2011 payroll obligations ($80.9 m):
$103.9 million.
Note that the $103.9 million does NOT include the salaries for the following arbitration eligible players (2010 salary in brackets):
Weaver ($4.3 m)
Saunders ($3.7 m)
Napoli ($3.6 m)
Aybar ($2 m)
Howie ($1.75 m)
Mathis ($1.3 m)
Morales ($1.2 m)
So for 2010, the arb eligible players are collectively being paid $17.85 million.
Adding the $17.85 million (noting that this does not include the inevitable raises from arb), this bumps up the Angels’ 2011 payroll to $121.75 million.
To provide some context, the Angels 2010 payroll is $121.1 million
Mauer struck out one time, ONE TIME, in 4 years of varsity baseball in high school!
I’d still take Trout because the dude is fucking awesome!!!! (definitely worth my one f-bomb)
Now batting, our rookie of the year, Miiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiike TROUT!
Trout because his name is fishy.
What do you need a fancy suit for, Charlie, you ain't got no job to wear it to.
I take Trout and the $23 million
Good young players give the Angels a lot of options. They can continue to develop him and retain his rights, cheaply, for 6 years. They can trade him to any team, unlike Mauer who probably can’t be traded to the smaller market teams. They can spend the saved money on good things, like Scott Kazmir and GMJ’s couch potato fund…okay, maybe THAT’s not the best argument, but you see what I’m saying!
Yes, Mauer is arguably one of the top 5 players in the game right now, but the Twins gave him a contract based on his past performance. That’s fair enough, but who knows where his future lies? A 114 OPS+ catcher is certainly an asset. But a $23 million asset? That may decline in value? Not quite as good.
Give me Fish2!
Defending maligned chants since 2009
You don't know where Trout's future lies, either.
Does he ever become one of the top 5 in baseball?
If he does, how many years will be left on his existing contract before the Halos have to fork over $20 million per season?
Will Trout decline in value, as with some SS/3B prospects in recent memory?
If you are going to apply what ifs to Mauer, you need to apply them to Trout as well.
As for trade value, that is a great point. Well, it would be a great point if the Halos actually were in the habit of trading prospects for value.
"Wastin away again in Minor-Leaguer-Ville..."
Trout is hitting really well
In
Low
A
Ball
Can we save the “top 5 player” speculation for…. oh I dont know, when he actually hits in anything but the lowest possible minor league level?
I brought sexy back, but they only gave me store credit....
Dude. Please follow along. You and I are in agreement.
Gorbachav5 is making comparisons between Trout and Mauer and (he, not me) is the first to ring this up with “Mauer is arguably one of the top 5 players in the game right now…”
My response is actually IN AGREEMENT with your point. Does Trout EVEN EVER MAKE IT to a Top 5?
"Wastin away again in Minor-Leaguer-Ville..."
I STILL DISAGREE WITH YOU AGREEING WITH ME
I brought sexy back, but they only gave me store credit....
But yes, I agree.
If he does hit that plateau he would be just as expensive, maybe slightly less so due to position he plays.
I brought sexy back, but they only gave me store credit....
That's the point I made up above. The price for talent is what it is.
Trout is a discussion point only because of the possibility of his max upside. As if God lit up a nearby bush and promised you personally that Trout hits peak potential for a full career. (Anything short of the Lord and, like, duh, why are we even talking about this?)
But that max upside will come with the same contract that Mauer has now, if not higher due to inflation and normal growth in premium salaries. The basic difference would merely be the year you put on the date of their paychecks.
"Wastin away again in Minor-Leaguer-Ville..."
yes that's true
but you also get 6 years OF NOT PAYING HIM LIKE A SUPERSTAR, and also he plays a position that ages much better than catcher.
The fact that eventually he will be given a big contract does not take away the value that you get by not having to give it to him for 5 or 6 years. If that was the case, then why would the M’s have traded for Smoak, I mean eventually he’s going to need a big contract too…..
Well,
you DO get to pay him 6 years for a lower salary, but those are the years he is on the uptick, heading into whatever his prime will be. Those are not all necessarily prime years. So there is no assurance that the value on ALL those years will be premium. And you are still hopeful that he does reach a very high level.
Meanwhile, the current Mauer contract will have concluded, and there will be a chance for a new, lower, contract for Mauer as he ages out of his career. Mauer will be on the decline but still highly productive.
So which is greater? Paying $X for a player as they are at 20%, then 40%, then 60%, then 80%, then 100% of their peak skills and not know how high that peak might be? Or pay $10X for a player as they go 100%, 80%, 60%, 40%, 20% of their peak skills, when you KNOW that their peak is among the best that ever played?
"Wastin away again in Minor-Leaguer-Ville..."
I think Ill take the proven major league player
with an MVP under his belt, record breaking pace at his position, which by the way is significantly more rare than a speedy center fielder.
This discussion even taking place is almost ridiculous.
I brought sexy back, but they only gave me store credit....
This really is a good question.
Me? I take Mauer simply because you’d be getting the best catcher in the game, and the title should remain for at least the foreseeable future. His salary is a burden, but if the Twins went to every GM and said “we have Mauer available for your top prospect”…unless that prospect was Strasburg-esque, they’d make that trade.
I’m a big Trout fan and I really think he’ll be very good, but prospects are always a crapshoot. I’ll take the sure thing.
The Devil went down to Georgia, and all I got was this gold fiddle. Go Angels! helpfindscottajob@gmail.com
There's a good case to be made...
…that Mauer is the best player in baseball. And you get him for six years.
Granted next year might be tight from a budget perspective, but all the money comes off the books after that…
I see red people
Is Mauer even worth his contract?
The question isn’t just Trout for Mauer and his massive contract, it is also whether or not YOU would pay Mauer that contract given the year he is having in 2010.
Is Mauer worth trading a (or THE) top prospect and taking on 20+ million a year in salary?
You have to first decide if he is worth the money before the prospect.
For my money, the guy is past his prime and will be injury prone for half his contract because he is a catcher. With the Angels team the way it is now, you go with the prospect and hope Trout, Morales, Howie and Aybar can eventually all pair together to create a great team.
Past his prime
I hate when guys past their prime win MVPs.
I brought sexy back, but they only gave me store credit....
He's 27.
That’s actually the beginning of his prime
BUT HES NOT AN ANGEL
so it doesnt count.
I think this whole thread is incredibly valuable in proving that 99.9% of people could never be GMs.
I brought sexy back, but they only gave me store credit....
Dude not even a serious thought.
Mauer all the way. That’s a guy you build a franchise around. Catchers like that don’t come around often if hardly at all. And he’s a know awesome commodity. Trout might be tearing it up, but that doesn’t mean he’ll be the next Ken Griffey Jr.
Totally Mauer all the way.
Any time you think you have the game conquered the game will turn around and punch you right in the nose.
Mike Schmidt
If you had a million dollars, what would you do (Office Space)?
We betrayed Vlad, the greatest Angel. Epic fail.
Well that's the thing, the more girls, the more money you have to dish out
The less money per girl. You can get two classy chicks for 500K each. But if we run this number up to a solid 12 or 13, we’ll start to see the quality of chick go down.
We betrayed Vlad, the greatest Angel. Epic fail.
Chicks with good backsides have a lot of upside
W6G -- Unless there's a good trade on the table.
by RexTookMyStash on Jul 14, 2010 5:47 PM PDT up reply actions
Here's the way I see it....
Take this song……
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TwniyCaWYmg
And replace “Hey” “Yeah” and “Shots” with “Trout”
Now you’ve got Mike Trout’s theme song and that just isn’t something you can do with Mauer.
We betrayed Vlad, the greatest Angel. Epic fail.
EVERYBODY!!!
Trout, Trout, Trout, Trout, Trout, Trout, Kohn, EVERYBODY!!!
We betrayed Vlad, the greatest Angel. Epic fail.
Trout, Trout, Uh Huh, Trout, Trout!
Everybody!!!! Trout, Trout, Trout, Conger!
Now batting, our rookie of the year, Miiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiike TROUT!
by angelskid2210 on Jul 14, 2010 6:15 PM PDT up reply actions
What if Spartacus...
… had a Piper Cub?
This is a silly thread.
by GrichManPoorMan on Jul 14, 2010 4:19 PM PDT reply actions
Yup. I hope no twins fans see this... Kinda embarrassing because the twinkles would laugh at this.
by HalosBiggestFan on Jul 14, 2010 4:35 PM PDT via mobile up reply actions
you seriously care what a twin fan thinks?
What do you need a fancy suit for, Charlie, you ain't got no job to wear it to.
by clover_black on Jul 14, 2010 4:57 PM PDT up reply actions
We'll splice their DNA and sign Joe Trout to a 7-year deal.
Next step, world series ring fittings.
W6G -- Unless there's a good trade on the table.
You know who also liked fish?
W6G -- Unless there's a good trade on the table.
by RexTookMyStash on Jul 14, 2010 6:39 PM PDT up reply actions
For those people that think people that would even consider Trout over Mauer
are out of their minds….
Here’s an article on Fangraphs that in part talks about why Mauer ISN’T on their Top 50 list of players with the most trade value. The main idea is that he’s already being paid fair market value. Also if you click on other parts of this series you will see that at least one player is a MINOR LEAGUER.
http://www.fangraphs.com/blogs/index.php/2010-trade-value-introduction/
Not much of a decision
So many things can happen. For example, Mauer could collide with some douchebag 1st baseman and get something a lot worse than a concussion and somehow alter his career. Because we can’t see the future, Trout could be the next Brandon Wood hitting. Right now probably Mauer with how he’s hit in the MLB instead of someone still not even in AA right now.
Right now
Mike Trout is hitting 1.000 in High A.
nuff said
by MH252525 on Jul 14, 2010 7:47 PM PDT reply actions 1 recs
Rancho Cucamonga Top 1st
* Mike Trout singles on a line drive to center fielder David Paisano.
Paisano?
We should trade for him. Nah, never mind. Judging by Napoli our manager does not think highly of fellow Italians.
"That boy is our last hope" - Obi Wan Scioscia, as Francisco Rodriguez left for the Mets. "No, there is another" - Yoda Reagins.
by RallyMonkey5 on Jul 14, 2010 7:55 PM PDT up reply actions
Is there anyone to follow Quakes games on the internet besides the gameday audio?
I’ve been trying to figure out if they have a Gameday thing or something like it
Thanks guys
I should have set up a poll. Too late now, but it looks like the majority go for Mauer.
Those who think it’s a crazy question, along the lines of “How can you take an unproven minor leaguer over an MVP?” – I question whether you are giving enough consideration to the contract. If this was a fantasy baseball draft, and money didn’t matter, of course I would take Mauer. But let’s say we’re drafting for 2013, and it’s an auction draft. You can get Mauer for $40 or Trout for $1. I don’t think it’s so clear cut anymore.
Taking Trout instead of Mauer means you have 20 million more to build the rest of your team. I think it comes down to how much you trust your team to spend that other 20 million. If they just blow it on guys like Speier, Rodney, and Matthews, then you’re better off getting Mauer and filling those spots with minor leaguers or waiver claims.
If you think they’ll turn $20 into Joel Pineiro, Maicer Izturis, and Vlad Guerrero, then let’s take them and add some Trout.
My choice is Trout, but it’s a close one, and I hope the Angels wisely surround him with real talent.
"That boy is our last hope" - Obi Wan Scioscia, as Francisco Rodriguez left for the Mets. "No, there is another" - Yoda Reagins.
Sheesh...
Guys (and gals)…the guy is 18 and playing his first game in high A ball…mostly I think, “Good Grief, you’re all out of your friggin’ minds!”
That said…I’m listening to my first Quakes game ever! :D
Quakes win...
First time in Bakersfield in like 2 years…
Trout leads off game with a hit and catches the flyball to end the game.
A bit off topic, but...
I just read this from Lyle Spencer:
“There remains a possibility the Angels will make a move on a big bat to handle first by the July 31 non-waiver Trade Deadline, but with Napoli playing well and backed by Brandon Wood and new Angel Paul McAnulty, it no longer is a necessity.”
A big bat is no longer a necessity? Napoli “backed” by Brandon Wood and that lard ass strike out artist McAnulty makes it no longer a necessity? ARE YOU KIDDING ME???? I’m praying to God that Reagins isn’t thinking like Lyle. Although, I wouldn’t doubt that hegot this RIDICULOUSLY OBNOXIOUS notion from Reagins himself. McAnulty has ONE hit (a home run) since he’s been up. I think I’ve seen him strike out in almost every other at-bat. And Brandon Wood is absolutely hopeless. As much as I wanted him to do well, it’s just not going to happen. EVER! haha.
I HOPE TO GOD they make a run at a big bat, among other things, before the 31st (preferably Fielder) to bring some continuity to the line up. Without it, a snowball in hell has a better chance of survival than we do. And even if we do, by some miracle, make it to the postseason, does anyone really think we can contend with the Yanks or Sox?
by Jason Andrew Martin on Jul 14, 2010 11:15 PM PDT reply actions
Paul McAnulty
the typo in Lyle’s article should be corrected to read “we have found our big ASS”
by Rev Halofan on Jul 14, 2010 11:17 PM PDT up reply actions
Uh, dude, Brandon Wood has transformed.
Live in the now!
Warning: The message above may or may not contain sarcasm. Read and interpret at your own risk.
by snowhor on Jul 15, 2010 1:30 PM PDT via mobile up reply actions
"Mike Trout Unlikely To Be Traded"
Mark Polishuk wrote it, so there’s nothing more to be said.
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