Angels Trade for Torii Hunter?
Vernon Wells is a 32-year-old center fielder with a career OPS+ of 108 in 5963 plate appearances. Take all the center fielders since 1901 who racked up between 4472 and 7454 plate appearances through their age-31 seasons (+/- 25% of Wells) while putting up an OPS+ of between 98 and 118, and what do you get?
A list of 26 baseball players, each and every one of them at least pretty good, sometimes great, and always one helluva lot better than Juan Rivera, ranging in Wins Above Replacement from Carlos Beltran (50.3) to Gus Bell (15.9). There are two Hall of Famers on the list (Max Carey and Lloyd Waner), every single non-active player made Bill James' top 125 list in his 2001 Historical Abstract (with most bunched between #35-75), and Wells sits right smack dab in the middle of the pack, ranked at #13 in WAR at 25.6.
Reason #1 for optimism about Wells: Players who've performed like he has up to this point in his career have all been very good players.
Wells ranks 52nd since 1901 in WAR by a center fielder through age 31. It's a good neighborhood:
49 Mickey Rivers
50 Rick Monday
51 Eric Davis
52 Vernon Wells
53 Bobby Thomson
54 Marquis Grissom
55 Jimmy Piersall
Not Hall of Famers, but these are guys who typically made two or three All-Star teams, received MVP votes in three or four seasons (including one time in the top 10), and made impacts on postseasons. Which, minus the postseason, describes Wells to a T -- three All-Star games, three seasons of MVP votes, topping out at 8th. Good ballplayers, he and they.
So who does Wells most resemble? Going back to that first list of comps, three stand out as very similar players -- big right-handed throwers who hit for good average, didn't walk that much, and had excellent power, while not exactly setting the world on fire with their CF defense, at least as measured by WAR. In order of least similar to most:
NM G PA AB R H 2B 3B HR RBI BB SO SB/CS AVG OBP SLG OPS+ oWAR dWAR WAR
VW: 1393 5963 5470 789 1529 339 30 223 813 406 762 90/29 .280 .329 .475 108 28.0 -2.4 25.6
#3: 1523 6462 5922 802 1686 288 62 197 879 430 590 29/29 .285 .334 .454 105 22.9 -7.0 15.9
#2: 1198 4889 4450 671 1230 200 55 195 737 387 519 32/10 .276 .337 .478 115 25.7 -0.4 25.3
#1: 1234 4894 4492 672 1218 259 26 192 711 319 870 126/60 .271 .324 .469 104 19.0 -2.1 16.9
Bachelor #3 is Gus Bell, these days most famous for being father of Buddy and granddad of David (and Mike), but back in the day a 4-time All-Star who drove in 100 four times, hit 25+ home runs three times, and hit .300 and scored 100 runs twice, with a lot of doubles and triples power as well (he led the league in 3Bs at age 22). Unlike the other three guys under discussion, Bell was left-handed hitter, never much of a baserunner, and was effectively finished as a power hitter (and general offensive threat) after age 27, hitting just .270/.312/.398 his final 8 seasons (for a -0.8 WAR). He was also one of the worst defensive center fielders in the history of the game, mercifully yanked over to the corner at age 30 after playing way too long alonside the Ralph Kiners and Wally Posts of the world. As overrated as Wells has been with the glove, he ain't that bad.
Candidate #2 looks so similar to Wells -- 25.3 WAR to 25.6, .276/.337/.475 to .280/.329/.475, the exact same 76% SB success rate -- that you might be wondering why Bobby Thomson isn't number 1. Well, he wasn't really a center fielder; he just kept the seat warm until Willie Mays showed up, and he also played quite a bit of third base. Was more lanky-strong than football-player buff. He was a terrific player, averaging 26 homers and 94 RBIs from 23 to 29, making three All-Star teams and finishing in the Top 16 in MVP voting three times, but he broke his ankle at age 30 (giving a kid named Hank Aaron a chance), and was never the same after. Close, but no cigar.
So who does that leave us with? A guy who is Wells' contemporary, big and strong and right-handed, who also won perhaps-undeserved Gold Gloves in center field playing on turf, hitting 25 homers and 30+ doubles a year, stealing bases in the double digits a handful of times, crossing the 100 RBI threshold now and then, while never drawing more than 55 walks. A by-acclamation Good Guy who'd spent his entire career as the face of (if not quite the best player on) an American League team before coming over to the Angels at age 32, the dead ringer for our new centerfielder-playing-left, is our old centerfielder-playing-right, Torii Hunter.
Reason #2 for optimism about Wells: His closest comp is a cat named Torii Hunter, and that guy turned out OK.
I mean, it's eerie. Check out their age-31 seasons, just before lacing up for LA of A:
NM G PA AB R H 2B 3B HR RBI SB/CS BB SO AVG OBP SLG OPS+ DP oWAR dWAR WAR
VW: 157 646 590 79 161 44 3 31 88 6/4 50 84 .273 .331 .515 127 18 4.4 -1.0 3.4
TH: 160 650 600 94 172 45 1 28 107 18/9 40 101 .287 .334 .505 123 17 3.9 -1.6 2.3
Seriously, apart from the stolen bases, that's the same player.
Even the most troubling part of Wells' resume -- his injury-plagued stumble during what should have been the prime years of 28-30 -- were matched by Torii's now-forgotten mediocrity from 27-29. Here's what each man averaged during their three-year Lost Weekends:
NM G PA AB R H 2B 3B HR RBI SB/CS BB SO AVG OBP SLG OPS+ DP oWAR dWAR WAR
VW: 138 597 547 77 145 32 3 17 75 10/3 42 74 .265 .317 .426 95 14 1.8 -0.4 1.4
TH: 130 542 491 75 129 31 2 21 80 17/7 41 91 .262 .325 .460 102 15 1.9 -0.2 1.7
I mean, it's not me, right? Vernon's lows during this period were lower, his highs were higher, and Torii eked out an advantage through some consistency and extra slugging. But they've really been the same player, with three minor and worth-examining exceptions -- one that makes Wells look better, and two that make Wells look worse. For the Hunter/Wells difference that makes Vernon look better, let's first look at yet another similarity: what the two men averaged from ages 25-31:
NM G PA AB R H 2B 3B HR RBI SB/CS BB SO AVG OBP SLG OPS+ DP oWAR dWAR WAR
VW: 145 626 571 80 156 35 3 24 83 10/3 47 81 .274 .329 .469 108 15 2.8 -0.1 2.7
TH: 142 585 536 82 146 32 2 25 90 16/7 39 103 .272 .326 .484 110 16 2.6 -0.2 2.4
Why does that spitting-image exercise redound to Wells' credit? Because of what he did before age 25. While Hunter was scuffling to establish himself as a regular, Wells was having a dance party on the face of American League pitchers, leading the league in hits, doubles and total bases in an age-24 offensive outburst that Hunter has never come close to matching. Here's what their 23-24 seasons averaged out to:
NM G PA AB R H 2B 3B HR RBI SB/CS BB SO AVG OBP SLG OPS+ DP oWAR dWAR WAR
VW: 160 692 643 102 191 42 4 28 108 6/2 34 82 .297 .334 .506 115 18 4.2 -0.9 3.4
TH: 117 390 360 48 96 16 4 7 40 7/4 22 70 .267 .313 .393 76 11 0.4 -0.1 0.3
By any conventional measure (except consistency), Wells accomplished more by age 32 than Torii Hunter did. Past accomplishment being the most important factor when figuring out future performance, this is no small thing. But there's a reason beyond salary that people are skeptical about Vernon Wells' prospects going forward.
Reason #1 for skepticism about Wells: Dude got chubby.
Not long after Wells signed his ridiculous 7 year, $126 million extension, he started looking a good deal more porky. He also, probably not coincidentally, began suffering a series of nagging injuries. He's had two good and two mediocre seasons since then, though even in his bad years he'll have 55 extra base hits (more than Juan Rivera has ever managed). Still, two words should send chills down the spine of any fan of a team that has just taken on an eight-figure salary of an accomplished, once-fast, power-hitting centerfielder in his early 30s who has packed on extra pounds: Andruw Jones. Though he's a big guy, Torii Hunter still looks like he could play safety or cornerback for a decent football team. Wells no longer does.
Reason #2 for skepticism about Wells: Center fielders break down.
Whether it's poundage in the gut or on the knees after more than a decade of piling up more yardage than anyone else on the field, center fielders have an unfortunate habit of diving off a cliff in their early-to-mid-30s. If you make a list of CFers through age 31 who've put up more than 4472 plate appearances with an isolated power (slugging minus batting average) of between .160 and .230 (Wells is right in the middle, at .195), you get another collection of 25 very good players (ranging in WAR from Andruw Jones to Gus Bell, with Wells down at #20), including Hall of Famers Andre Dawson and Larry Doby. Yet most were toast by age 33. Here's a distribution of when these good and great players began to be no better than mediocre.
28 Gus Bell
29 Vada Pinson, Bobby Thomson (though Thomson had one good year at age 34)
30 Andruw Jones, Cesar Cedeno
31 Rick Monday
32 Dale Murphy, Andy Van Slyke, Ruppert Jones
33 Chet Lemon, Wally Berger, Ray Lankford, Andy Pafko
34 Larry Doby, Bernie Williams, George Hendrick
35 Jimmy Wynn, Freddy Lynn
36 Andre Dawson
37 Mike Cameron
38 Reggie Smith, Ellis Burks
Still haven't cliff-dived: Carlos Beltran, Torii Hunter
So Hunter (or perhaps more accurately, Arte Moreno) is playing with house money in continuing to be a very good player through his age-34 season. Is there any reason, besides being in better shape, why Torii could have been predicted to have a better 32-34 than Vernon Wells? Unfortunately yes.
Reason #3 for skepticism about Wells: He was a (slightly) worse hitter on the road than Hunter, and his numbers were more helped by his home park.
Don't get me wrong, I think the hubbub over Wells' splits is way overblown. Your average American League hitter is about 5 percent better at home, and Wells is at 8-9 percent. It's not a significant difference. I will gladly take the over on him hitting better than .227/.301/.407 in 2011.
But Hunter before coming to Anaheim hit better on the road, suggesting that his overall numbers were underselling his offensive upside. Here are the two guys' home numbers through age 31:
NM PA AB R H 2B 3B HR RBI SB/CS BB SO AVG OBP SLG
VW: 2902 2648 400 757 175 17 124 436 35/16 213 370 .286 .339 .505
TH: 2384 2192 337 598 134 15 85 348 76/26 144 467 .273 .324 .464
So Wells is clearly the better and more powerful hitter, right? Not so fast. Check out the road:
NM PA AB R H 2B 3B HR RBI SB/CS BB SO AVG OBP SLG
VW: 3061 2822 389 772 164 13 99 377 55/13 193 392 .274 .321 .446
TH: 2510 2300 335 620 125 11 107 363 50/34 175 403 .270 .324 .473
Basically (even eerily!) the same, except that Torii hits about 7 more home runs per 600 ABs, accounting for most of a 27-point edge in slugging.
Bottom line: The Angels clearly believe they have signed another Torii Hunter. Only this time for one less year, with no (I hope) pretensions of playing CF, and some moderate salary relief thrown in, at the cost of the best half-time catcher in Major League Baseball. If Wells turns out to hit as well as Hunter did from 32-34, this trade will have been more than worth it, since that would mean an All-Star level of offense at a position that otherwise had no prospects for such during that time period, and since (regrettably) there is no alternate universe in which Mike Scioscia starts Mike Napoli at catcher for more than 85 games a season.
Reasons to believe Wells could indeed hit like Torii? More than anything, because he has so far, in fact hitting slightly better both in aggregate and at his peak (his top 3 offensive seasons are each better than Torii's best). He controls the strike zone better. He was slightly better at full strength at age 31 than Torii was at age 31, after both had cycled through some injury-marred struggles. He won't (Allah willing) be asked to patrol center field. He'll be coming off turf.
Reasons to believe Wells won't? He's in worse shape than Hunter ever has been. It could be that he's tailored his stroke to a ballpark outside of which it won't work well. And most of all, big, strong outfielders of his type do not typically start peaking with their bat after their 30th birthday, which Torii has done. Most, in fact, collapse by age 34.
So it's a big, expensive gamble. But you can also see where the Angels are coming from in thinking it might work.
This Fan-Post is authored by an independent fan. Tell us what you think and how you feel.
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Mommy!
All i want for kwanza is to have the magical writing abilities possessed by matt welch
Brandon Wood 4 Prez
by miketrout on Jan 23, 2011 12:21 PM PST via mobile reply actions
Matt what is your take on his inability to hit LHP?
Reggie Willits: The non-tender candidate of my dreams.
The same as my take on Ervin Santana's "inability to win on the road"
Small sample size fluke, I would be willing to bet handsomely.
hmm.
.195 in 2010 and .2058 in 2009. Those fall fall away from his career splits though.
We shall see. To be honest it makes me pretty nervous.
Reggie Willits: The non-tender candidate of my dreams.
I think I read somewhere though all of the like 5000 of posts
and articles that Wells swung and missed as some ungodly % of breaking balls by lefties. Don’t quote me but I believe it was in the 40% range. Color me equally nervous about him hitting lefties.
I’d rather his splits be the other way like Napoli since K-Mo has the same split issue as Wells and I honestly think Jeremy Moore would be a capable platoon guy against righties.
I think there is something to it.
Well’s reverse split goes back for some time, and is supported by fangraphs pitch type data: the dude has hit curves and sliders much better than change-ups over the past three years.
The flip side of the split is that he hits good righties very well, a rare thing for a right handed slugger, and a trait the Halos were in need of entering 2011. Rather than a strike against Wells, I think that was a big reason why he’s kept the FO’s attention.
Hitting righties is also something that few of the Halos’ upper level outfield prospects have done consistently (Moore being the lone but risky exception). Pettit, Trumbo and Bourjos have all proven more effective against lefties in recent years, so there are plenty of options when a lefty takes the mound. I’m not saying Wells is just a platoon player – just that the Halos can easily shuffle things around if necessary.
Thank you for your noble efforts you are an artist...
…but it’s a bit like getting an ice cream to make you feel better after your dog was run over
I see red people
by The Limey on Jan 23, 2011 12:31 PM PST reply actions 1 recs
Honestly not trying to make anyone feel better here
Trying to figure out what kind of player we’re getting.
In the end, Denny Green will be right again.
He is who we thought he was.
Now for the “Who do we think he is” part.
This is the space where you write a clever quote or something like that.
by sheisalovelyladyandmyapologiestoher on Jan 23, 2011 12:53 PM PST up reply actions
Suboptimal said that this would happen
Once again, mattwelch comes to the rescue and brings sanity to the nuthouse.
Hi ho Silver, away!
Well, come see a fat old man some time!
One of the best lines I've ever heard Limey
Don't call me Bugs. Although Bugs Bunny could do it all on the baseball field.
by highlandhalo on Jan 24, 2011 9:19 AM PST up reply actions
Matt- thanks for the write up.
Why do you think the FO traded for Wells, using 2 players they could have at LEAST acquired prospects for, when he was on waivers? Oversight by the FO? Desperation at a time when this club NEEDS a big bat?
What do you need a fancy suit for, Charlie, you ain't got no job to wear it to.
Because he wasn't Plan A or B
When he was on waivers, we had other options. When those options ran out, he was no longer on waivers.
Rivera was a salary dump; we weren’t going to get anyone worth a damn for him. It’s the Napoli, and lack of salary relief, that make you go hmmmm. Though the Napoli motivations were comprehensible — we were looking at paying $14 million the next two years for a half-time catcher, while the catcher of the future might already be ready.
Sounds like plan A or B was to acquire a premiere outfielder via FA
then not pony up the cash when the time came.
What do you need a fancy suit for, Charlie, you ain't got no job to wear it to.
by clover_black on Jan 23, 2011 1:58 PM PST up reply actions
Obviously it wasn't about the money since we took on Wells' full salary
It was about the length of the contract. The FO felt more comfortable being on the hook for a big salary for 4 years rather than 6 or 7. I’m not saying I agree or disagree, just pointing that out.
Think it was more than that...
…if not: then why not make an offer of fewer years but more per year for Crawford and Beltre? If the reporting in the fish wraps was accurate, the Stooges offered less money per year and fewer years to both.
I don’t know who said it on HH previously, but the more plausible scenario is that once Werth signed, the Stooges did not have a plan and could not re-group quick enough. In the end, they simply got desperate and had to do something in an attempt to satisfy current and potential season ticket holders.
I suspect the universal disdain from the MSM regarding the trade, coupled with the love of the trade by Lyle Spencer has them reeling now.
Realize the Beltre contract we would have had to offer is no better than Wells. Also both are same age basically.
There is an argument for Crawford though.
Site Moderator on MockingtheDraft, AnaheimCalling, and Coltzilla.
Lead organizer of the annual 7-round live mock draft at MtD
by TheAngelsColts on Jan 24, 2011 4:50 PM PST up reply actions
Let's get Wells started
on P90x…
73 days until Opening Day, that’ll put him peaking just before the last recovery week with agility and flexibility to boot.
www.appealtoemulsion.com
by feNOMINAL on Jan 23, 2011 1:02 PM PST reply actions 1 recs
lets just tell him the Angels declared bankruptcy
and all of their financial obligations were wiped clean and they can renegotiate any previous debt they owe. That should get him in tip top shape….
Oh wait that only works for the Government?
I'd rather see him drop big monies on a world-class trainer,
than drop like 120 bones on a exercise program for the average american.
They want power. We want respect...
by SenorChuckles on Jan 23, 2011 8:26 PM PST up reply actions
have you tried p90x
shit is hard!
"Don't turn the channel, ... no matter what the score is." -David Eckstein
by princeton11loveshalos on Jan 24, 2011 12:41 AM PST up reply actions
hard, but doable.
They want power. We want respect...
by SenorChuckles on Jan 24, 2011 11:24 AM PST up reply actions
LMAO
at all the comments above.
"Don't turn the channel, ... no matter what the score is." -David Eckstein
by princeton11loveshalos on Jan 25, 2011 8:29 AM PST up reply actions
Thanks for the wonderful writeup Matt
I think that if Wells turned out like Torii it would be the best case scenario (as was Torii’s past few seasons the best case scenario for him). I agree with everything you wrote I’m just a bit more concerned about his road splits than I think you are.
Torii had 17 road homers the year before he came here which is exceptional. Wells had 11 which is the same Rivera had last year in like a hundred something less PA.
Also if you look at road OPS over the past 5 seasons for the 3 players involved, Rivera and Naps had 7 of the top 8 seasons.
Good write up Matt.
Your analysis confirms that Wells is an offensive and defensive plus over Rivera and might replace much of the power lost by the Napoli trade.
For this Nap fan, however, those stats heal no wounds. Is Wells a net gain for the team? Probably. Am I still pissed Napoli was traded, underutilized, and underappreciated? You bet.
A wise man does not need advice and a fool won't take it.
Nice job.
I feel a bit better about this trade now after this. Not MUCH, but better.
Light up that halo! RIP, Nick.
Thanks for trying to calm me down, but this ain't doing it.
There are a whole lotta reasons to be upset over this deal. But any suggestion that Wells is an unproductive player ain’t one of them.
Longtime fan of what has become the State College Angels of East Anaheim
This makes me feel a bit better, but those away splits still haunt me.
At first glance, the away splits between Hunter and Wells look like their pretty even across the board.
But take into account that Torii put those numbers up in 500 fewer at-bats. That’s almost an entire season less.
I’m cautiously optimistic that he’ll put together a few solid, above-average seasons, but he will never ever be worth that money. I sincerely hope that $86 million doesn’t seriously constrict us in the next few years, but I’m fearful that it will prove devastating.
by Nathan Aderhold on Jan 23, 2011 2:18 PM PST reply actions
Oops, almost forgot...
Thanks for the write-up. Really well done.
You’ve accomplished the impossible with making me feel OK about Wells’ abilities.
by Nathan Aderhold on Jan 23, 2011 2:20 PM PST reply actions
Actually, if you *really* want to feel good about this deal, look at the defense
Per WAR, we were -11 runs in outfield defense last year, compared to the average. If you simply extrapolate Hunter’s RF numbers & Bourjos’ CF numbers* from last year to 1200 innings, give the leftovers to Reggie in CF & Abreu in RF (at last year’s rates), then assume that Wells (and his backups) will only be a zero … you’re talking about a PLUS 54 outfield defense. That’s a 65-run turnaround, if true.
- I would remiss in pointing out that if Bourjos played 1200 innings like he played his 450 last year, he would set an all-time record in fielding runs saved as a center fielder. Still, the removal of Abreu, Rivera, Matsui, and Hunter-the-centerfielder is going to make a big difference over 2010.
by mattwelch on Jan 23, 2011 2:27 PM PST up reply actions 1 recs
What would that math be if, instead of Wells+reserves = 0, the only thing you changed was swapping back in Rivera in LF?
Longtime fan of what has become the State College Angels of East Anaheim
Subtract two
He was a minus-2 per 1200 innings at the position last year, though he looked a lot worse. I’m pretty confident that Wells is more than 2 runs better than Rivera at LF, though you could also make a good case that Bourjos & Hunter won’t be as good as their one-third years would suggest.
So, if I am understanding this right...
Putting Wells into the outfield as you configure over the course of an entire season plays out to a +65 run turnaround.
but…
Leaving Rivera in the same outfield configuration over the course of an entier season plays out to a +63 run turnaround.
Am I understanding this correctly?
Longtime fan of what has become the State College Angels of East Anaheim
Yes, if you take as faith everyone's numbers from last year, and give VW a 0 in LF
So the trade, by that analysis, doesn’t itself move the needle much. But 1) I think Wells will be a good deal better than 2 runs better than Juan Rivera, and 2) the trade seals the Bourjos-Hunter-Abreu CF/RF/DH alignment. Recall that there was semi-serious talk about signing Vlad Guerrero until a few days ago.
Which brings up the prediction
that the full +65 runs will be realized, and everybody will get all bitch-slappin’ happy that it was all because of Wells.
Longtime fan of what has become the State College Angels of East Anaheim
If the full +65 runs were realized
I wouldn’t really care what Average Joe attributed them to.
"That's the true harbinger of spring, not crocuses or swallows returning to Capistrano, but the sound of a bat on a ball." ~Bill Veeck
Well, I do.
Not taking the time to properly understand fundamental cause and effect in the real world is why we have so many posters here and “fans” elsewhere believing in unicorns.
Longtime fan of what has become the State College Angels of East Anaheim
I agree absolutely
that fundamental misunderstandings of true causes and effects are all too frequently at the root of misguided fan dogma.
Just stating I’d be willing to endure more unicorn posts in exchange for +65 runs.
"That's the true harbinger of spring, not crocuses or swallows returning to Capistrano, but the sound of a bat on a ball." ~Bill Veeck
Did you know that at the bottom of every rainbow...
…there is an AL MVP outfielder?
Longtime fan of what has become the State College Angels of East Anaheim
hah
What do you need a fancy suit for, Charlie, you ain't got no job to wear it to.
by clover_black on Jan 23, 2011 3:04 PM PST up reply actions
I agree the OF defense will be much improved (mostly because of Bourjos)
Unfortunately the skeptic in me thinks the Angels will attribute it to Mathis and/or Conger over Naps rather than just better OF defense.
yea I'm just worried
that with our improved OF Defense and our revamped bullpen that if those two things combined help our runs allowed by like 70 runs they’ll credit like half of it to Mathis and half of it where it rightfully goes, and then do something stupid like give Mathis a 4 year 15 million dollar contract.
Nice write up Matt
The defensive stats you provided are huge. I knew we were in for an upgrade with a full season of Bourjos in CF but the addition of an athlete like Vernon Wells in LF is huge in comparison to having Rivera, Abreu, and/or Matsui. Those run saving numbers and his offense alone make him far more valuable than Napoli and Rivera combined.
Personally, I liked the trade. Regardless of the money. He makes us better. I remind myself when I post that I’m not the Angels accountant and that I’m not going to get fired for overspending or underspending. My job is to be a fan, not count the Angels finances.
Additionally, I’m willing to bet Scioscia gives Conger (If earned in spring training) the bulk of the playing time this season. Scioscia has done nothing but praise Conger. It’s Conger’s time. And I bet he plays well this season based on him being a natural hitter with a pure stroke… not the ugly thing that was Napoli’s “Homer or Bust” mentality. I think his defense will be targeted in the spring to chip away the remaining rough edges.
Scioscia has already said that Mathis and Wilson will start the season as our catchers.
I don’t see Conger getting the bulk of the playing time this season.
Pitchers and catchers haven't even reported yet...
But yes, as it stands today, Jan 23, Mathis and Wilson will start the season as our catchers. I don’t want to speak for everyone else but I assess with a high degree of confidence that Hank Conger is ready for the majors. I’m going on record saying that Hank Conger will get the lion share of the load this year, and he’ll be ready to produce at a Buster Posey level offensively. Bold statement? Yes, and I truly believe he will be. Defensively? Umm, probably not on par with Posey but he’ll be on par with Mathis and Wilson’s D, which should guarantee him the starting job.
Bold statement?
No, silly statement. Buster Posey OPSed .969 in the minors. Conger has OPSed .825. Don’t get me wrong – I think Conger can be a solid offensive catcher, but Buster Posey is one of the best in the majors. I think you’re over-rating him.
Defending maligned chants since 2009
To be fair...
Posey was older at each level.
Conger’s bat may not end up quite as good as Posey’s, but the stat comparison there isn’t exactly apples to apples.
Not entirely
In their age 22 seasons, Posey put up a .902 OPS in Fresno while Conger put up .847 in Salt Lake, both PCL teams. I know Salt Lake is a very good hitter’s park, but I don’t know about Fresno. Either way, that’s a pretty significant advantage for Posey.
The overall difference is so great that I don’t think it can be dismissed as just noise. Subjectively speaking, it’s not like anyone was rating Conger anywhere close to as high as Posey in terms of prospect value, despite Conger being younger.
Like I said, I’m not trying to denigrate Conger, he’s just not as good as Posey. If he turned out that way, it would be fantastic, but completely unexpected.
Defending maligned chants since 2009
I take your point
Was going from memory.
Posey got just 151 PA’s in AAA that year, so it’s a small sample size, but the numbers that he’s put up since indicate that it was most definitely no fluke. He could be a franchise player, a tag no one’s applying to Conger.
I am encouraged by official-Angel talk of a Wells-Bourjos-Hunter lineup
I mean, it’s stone obvious, but after this offseason I take nothing for granted.
by mattwelch on Jan 23, 2011 2:44 PM PST up reply actions 2 recs
yea as long as Bourjos is that fast
his defense will be superb and whenever the pitcher falls behind in the count he’ll get enough get me over fastballs to help his XBH just because the pitchers absolutely feel like they can’t walk him.
You're absolutely right....
A walk is as good as a double with Bourjos.
Acquiring Wells is only a +15 defensive swing in itself
In a best-case scenario. The rest of the improvement comes simply from optimizing what the Angels already had. Rivera, Bourjos, and Hunter were already slated to start in 2011.
Vernon Wells was about as bad in CF last year as Torii Hunter was: about -10 runs over the season. Hunter’s performance in RF extrapolates to +10 over a full season. It’s a small sample that’s probably too optimistic, but I’ll go with it for the sake of argument.
Juan Rivera actually rated as exactly average in LF according to Total Zone. UZR had him at -7.5 over 150 games. Say the real value is about -5. Assuming that Wells improves as much defensively by moving to LF as Hunter did by moving to RF, the Angels just got 15 runs better defensively.
But you also have to consider that Wells’ bat loses value by moving positions. The average LF is 10 runs better than the average CF with the bat. Even if he repeats his 2010 performance, his offensive value drops to just 10 runs better than average. Juan Rivera was just a little under average with his sub-par 2010.
In summary, the numbers work out like this:
Defensive improvement = -10 for Wells in CF + 20 for Wells moving to LF – (-5 for Rivera’s expected performance) = +15 runs
Offensive improvement +20 for Wells in CF – 10 for Wells moving to LF – (-5 for Rivera’s expected performance) = +15 runs
Total improvement = +30 runs
This is an absolute dream scenario in which Wells performs exactly as well as he did in 2010, which was considerably better than his career norm, and Rivera does slightly worse than he did last year, which was also quite a bit worse than his established level of performance even accounting for age.
That improvement is offset, and then some, by losing Mike Napoli, and then you have to start thinking about the added payroll and additional long-term liability for Wells. Looking on the bright side completely neglects most of the relevant facts by concentrating on one slight defensive improvement. It’s just not reasonable behavior.
by Suboptimal on Jan 23, 2011 4:23 PM PST up reply actions 1 recs
Excellent. This is closer to the logic I was looking for.
But help me out here. It’s not like LF is some kind of mission critical defensive territory. Is there something in metrics which takes into consideration that any meaningful improvement in LF is somewhat mitigated by the fact that it is only LF?
Longtime fan of what has become the State College Angels of East Anaheim
LF, in general, is not very important
RallyMonkey5’s WAR & Fangraphs’ version measure it differently, especially in regards to the best defensive LFer in the game, the guy who now plays for the Bostons. The B-Ref/Rally WAR lets you break it down by runs & adjustment, so you can see Sean’s math.
Runs are linear in this style of analysis
The mitigation comes into play with the positional adjustment, which is hidden here because I used league-average as the center-point, instead of replacement-level.
Not judging or measuring the wisdom of the move here
And as mentioned above, I’m not giving Wells credit for being anything more than 2 runs better than Rivera (15 runs is a pretty goddamned big swing). But his acquisition makes inevitable an outfield defense that on the whole will be ridiculously better next year, as long as Scioscia doesn’t get any stoopid ideas. I’m going to go ahead and be happy about that, since there aren’t many other reasons.
by mattwelch on Jan 23, 2011 4:53 PM PST up reply actions 1 recs
I just can't be happy about the team being worse than it was on Friday morning
Both on the field and in the financial ledger.
They'll be a better team on the field if Wells hits, I think
That’s based on the reality of Napoli never getting more than 85 starts behind the plate for Mike Scioscia.
And yes, that’s an $86 million “if.”
You have to buy into some pretty heady optimism to see even a small net gain for next season
Along with excuse the foolishness over Mathis and Napoli. I just can’t do that. I defended the Crawford affair, questioned then ultimately accepted the Beltre debacle, mocked Mathisgate while trying to maintain perspective, but this is too much. The front office has abundantly proven that its decisions do not warrant the benefit of my doubt.
by Suboptimal on Jan 23, 2011 5:29 PM PST up reply actions 1 recs
I don't "excuse the foolishness"; I bitterly acknowledge its existence
Seriously, it is quite possible (especially if Wells tanks), that Scioscia’s Napoli blindness will be seen by history as sinking it’s one really great run.
And you don’t have to “buy into some pretty heady optimism to see even a small net gain” — if Wells hits even close to what did in 2010, and if Mathis doesn’t start 125 games or something, this team will do better than it would have with Juan Rivera in left and Scioscia mismanaging Mike Napoli. Rivera is just not a good baseball player — Wells had more offensive WAR last year than Rivera has had WAR his entire career. And locking in that outfield D is going to make the pitching look a lot better.
I've tried looking at the numbers sideways
But I still can’t see this as anything other than the worst baseball decision the Angels have made in my lifetime. That includes GMJ, because at least at the time that deal was signed, the possibility that he would produce -0.6 WAR in an Angel uniform seemed rather remote to everyone.
Tony Reagins is investing the equivalent of 25 WAR in dollars and player-years in Vernon Wells’ age 32-35 seasons. Seeing as how he produced 25.6 WAR from ages 20 to 31, Arte Moreno may as well have Tony feeding slot machines from now.
by Suboptimal on Jan 23, 2011 5:56 PM PST up reply actions 1 recs
Wells' 32-35 years.
Those seasons are the ones we are trying not to think about right now, so that we can try to convince ourselves that this trade has some merit, that losing the team home-run leader was okay because he wasn’t going to play anyway; that 82 million dollars can be made up in hot dog sales.
Right now, I think we’re all in the “bargaining” stage of the grief cycle (denial, anger, bargaining, depression, acceptance): we know this trade sucks, but if we ask the great baseball father in the sky to impart his good graces upon Wells, just maybe Wells will have a career year.
A wise man does not need advice and a fool won't take it.
Valium helps Limey
I’ve got some if you need some. Oh yeah, you’re in pharma, you can get your own :)
Don't call me Bugs. Although Bugs Bunny could do it all on the baseball field.
by highlandhalo on Jan 24, 2011 9:35 AM PST up reply actions
The incremental run saving improvements we can expect from the pitching staff
As a result from the overall improvement in OF defense, is something that normally gets lost in the WAR calculations, and i’m pleased you alluded to it.
Whatever the merits on the “value” of the switch from CF to LF (which really is overstated, as the positional replacements in WAR are calculated from the perspective of “available pool of talent” rather than “difficulty of position” anyway) the overall effect will be very positive on a predominately flyball pitching staff. I underestimated how badly a poor OF defense effects our team last year, this year I won’t take it lightly and am glad in the new OF realignment.
by TheQuestforMerlin on Jan 23, 2011 6:09 PM PST up reply actions
Small effect
Angel pitchers generated about 100 more flyballs then the average team last year. Probably about 40 of them went to LF. How many would Vernon Wells have caught that Rivera/Abreu wouldn’t have? A dozen, maybe? Considering that a base hit is worth a fraction of a run, we’re talking about an improvement of 3 or 4 runs due to the pitching staff’s flyball tendencies. WAR isn’t even meaningful at that level of precision.
You made me happy with this fanpost.
I did nowhere near the work you did, but earlier this morning I was examining the WAR numbers at BRef.com for Torii, VWells, Abreu, Rivera, Napoli….everyone I could think of that might be involved.
It didn’t take a long time for me to notice the similarities in the numbers for Torii vs. Wells. Then, I noticed the $86MM – $11MM = $75MM/4 + ~$18.75MM per year cost…roughly the same as Torii’s salary.
My simple conclusion was that they were buying another Torii Hunter.
It’s done now; let’s look for the silver lining!
Salary additions and deletions
One more year of arb for Naps is probably going to be in the 7 to 8 million range if you wanted to think of it that way.
86-18=68/4=17mm a year, even, but we lose the production from Napoli. Although with the emergence of Conger, the man-crush on Mathis and Abreu DHing there is no way Napoli gets enough at bats here because Mike doesn’t appreciate his style of play.
by stereoscopic on Jan 23, 2011 10:10 PM PST up reply actions
but the fact still is that we didn;t get money back
when ALL the analysts said they expected 20-30 million back to make the deal. even at the low end of $20 I would have thought is was a very average deal, with $0 coming back this is idiocy.
I like how our OF defense is, and I think that a production from Wells of 24 Hr’s is not only feasible but reasonable to assume. It’s the damn money that gets me so pissed. all the B.S. that took place after we bombed at signing targets #A-X about not committing so much money when Arte only paid $180 million for the team. We just gave all the money away.
Is all that money worth it? or would you rather have a LF of Willits/Pettit and have it cost nothing. How much worse would we be? We’d lose power #’s for sure but probably have a better OF defense and stolen bases. and spend 85 million LESS.
I will be cheering for Wells, but booing the FO, for their complete lack of vision and understanding of their fans and seemingly all baseball knowledge.
My 4 year old daughter (whom I’ve posted about before, with her quotes on the team) when we told her about the trade, “So who’s our catcher then daddy?” “Jeff Mathis” (whom she hates) " Why is Mike Napoli gone, he hit homeruns, Jeff Mathis hits outs." maybe she can have Tony’s seat
How come when players go to Texas they revitalize their careers? could it be the roids?
by Sinatrasratpack on Jan 23, 2011 11:59 PM PST up reply actions
I'm curious...
What players comp closely with Rivera? I know he was horrendous last year, but I’ll bet there’s some pretty solid names on that list.
Also, you have to factor in that neither Wells nor Hunter will be playing CF in a year or two. That’s a hell of a lot of money to be paying two slightly above avg. hitters in their mid-late 30’s for LF and RF (Although Hunter has hit a little better than I would have expected the past three years). I think even if everything works out according to the optimistic viewpoint you present (which I doubt), it’s still a pretty horrible value. If it looks bad now, fast forward to three years from now. That’s where the story gets really scary.
Xavier Nady is #1 on the list
He’s fallen off a cliff in recent years due to a bad back injury, I think. Jeff Conine and Jeffrey Hammons are #2 and #3. The former was a productive player until he was almost 40, the latter was pretty much done at 32. Anyone remember what happened to Hammonds?
By the criteria that I use for these things, I'd say....
…. Glenallen Hill, Henry Rodriguez, Kevin Mench, Mary Cordova, Xavier Nady, someone in there. Guys who can hit for power, maybe hit around .270, maybe have a strong throwing arm, but because they can’t do anything else well have a hard time staying in the lineup.
You done write real pretty
You should do this professionally. I understand Keith Olbermann is seeking a new staff, maybe I can get you an interview?
"I can't tell people what to think or not to think. Their perceptions are their perceptions. We just feel we've taken a step forward. At the end of the day, we have to play 162 games. Once that happens then we'll be able to evaluate the offseason moves."~Tony Reagins, on the Angels' offseason
by George Kaplan on Jan 23, 2011 4:35 PM PST reply actions 1 recs
How does Bobby Abreu's option fit into the equation
If Abreu has 433 PA in 2011, his 2012 option for $9 millions vests. Otherwise, he is owed a $1 million buyout. By making Abreu the almost full time DH, but sitting him against leftys, he would be much less likely to make the PA needed. The Angels could bring in one of several aging right handed hitters to make a formidable platoon without hurting the club. I’m wondering if Wells is Abreu option insurance like Rodney was Fuentes option insurance.
Even if Abreu never faces a lefty, his option will still vest.
It’s looking very likely that we’ll be stuck with Abreu in 2012
Abreu had 461 PA against RHP last year
If the offense has to rely on him as much as it did in 2010, and he stays healthy the whole year, then yes, the option will vest. But I’m arguing that it’s less likely to vest with Wells in the every day lineup.
I had wondered about exactly the same.
Notice Abreu’s 2010 vsRHP/LHP splits.
Notice Vlad’s 2010 vs RHP/LHP splits.
Manny was signed for $2MM.
Well, I guess at this point not much we can do but hope for best case scenarios.
Because we got him (and that contract… oh my God that contract!!) and he’s here for four years. Because I can’t imagine any other team wanting to touch that contract with a ten foot pole.
Sure, it’s depressing seeing how fan blogs all over seem to overwhelmingly range from puzzlement as to why the heck we would take that entire contract without expecting Toronto to pay at least SOME of it to a gleeful “BWAHAHAHAHAHAHA!!!!”, but what is done is done, and now we can only hope that Wells gives us good numbers to at least partially make up for the millstone that contract potentially can be to getting other quality help to fill other holes for the next four years. Four years. Ugh. Even more than the ridiculous annual salary, knowing that it stays ridiculous as he only gets older and older and less productive….
Damn it, I’m doing it again. Think positive, think positive, think positive…
Sigh
Funny
I read the fishwraps (as Rome would say)
and writers there and elsewhere generally are more positive about the deal then we are on this site.
The feeling I get there and on other places on the internet is basically we had to upgrade and they maintain we did. What it cost is just the price we paid to stay in business, as it were. Another thing: a lot of people just aren’t as high on Napoli as we are.
Nail on the head....
we had to upgrade and they maintain we did.
Yes!
just the price we paid to stay in business
Cost of doing business…Yes!
a lot of people just aren’t as high on Napoli as we are.
YES!
Thanks for this.
Very much.
The insights and craftsmanship are much appreciated. I sometimes find it hard to believe this site is free.
"That's the true harbinger of spring, not crocuses or swallows returning to Capistrano, but the sound of a bat on a ball." ~Bill Veeck
Great write-up Matt
Thanks!
Good deal or not, have a feeling Vernon will be good match with Hunter and Morales in the middle of the line-up—protection for Kendry, and all that. We’ll see!
Show me a better fan-written article on SBNation.
And better comments, to boot.
Smart, no snark, and stats up the ying-yang.
HalosHeaven rocks, Rev. Bless you.
The Angels are ill-served by a front office that willfully disregards both modern and classic performance measurements when it comes to Jeff Mathis. Astonishing, and nearly unforgiveable.
by LittleCupcakes on Jan 23, 2011 10:19 PM PST reply actions
The optimistic side of this argument rides a lot on a single comp...
…with insufficient attention to park factors, IMO.
There’s just not enough here to mitigate the home/road splits for me — 9% may not seem like much, but it’s the difference between a .767 OPS player and a .844 OPS player.
The Rogers Centre is consistently one the most extreme hitters parks in the MLB, producing 15-20% more HRs than the average park. Meanwhile, Minnesota has traditionally suppressed homeruns. In the season before Torii joined the Angels, it was #27 in the majors for HR park factor - producing 75% of the HRs of the average MLB park. Rogers Centre produced 116% against league avg that year, and 136% this year.
If one is going to compare age 31 seasons for Hunter and Wells, I think that has to be taken into account. 0.75 HR park factor vs 1.36 HR park factor at age 31.
There’s simply too much in Wells’ recent history (road splits, injury, poor physical makeup, underperformance) to suggest that Bobby Thomson could be the more accurate comp here — no less b/c both players had their best years in their early to mid 20s.
More reason for optimism?
Baseball Reference most similar by age to Vernon Wells:
At age 28: Reggie Smith
29: Reggie Smith
30: Reggie Smith
31: Andre Dawson (2nd most similar: Reggie Smith)
Total WAR ages 32-35 for Reggie Smith: 17.3.
Great find!...
I suspect somebody is going to nuke you for that…..Waaayyyyy too much optimism.
B-Ref comps are not your friend
They pay insufficient attention to era/park adjustments, giving you comps of players who are much better hitters, like Reggie Smith.
Interesting.
I’ve consistently turned-up my nose at the players that B-Ref offers up as comps. Haven’t looked much (read: at all) into why the B-Ref system pulls the comps it does though.
Can I ask how you do yours? Are you filtering for similar ABs, matching slash lines, then manually verifying other similarities? (Totally okay, obviously, if it’s a trade secret. I respect IP).
"That's the true harbinger of spring, not crocuses or swallows returning to Capistrano, but the sound of a bat on a ball." ~Bill Veeck
From Baseball Reference:
Similarity Scores
Similarity scores are not my concept. Bill James introduced them nearly 15 years ago, and I lifted his methodology from his book The Politics of Glory (p. 86-106). To compare one player to another, start at 1000 points and then you subtract points based on the statistical differences of each player.
Batters
* One point for each difference of 20 games played.
* One point for each difference of 75 at bats.
* One point for each difference of 10 runs scored.
* One point for each difference of 15 hits.
* One point for each difference of 5 doubles.
* One point for each difference of 4 triples.
* One point for each difference of 2 home runs.
* One point for each difference of 10 RBI.
* One point for each difference of 25 walks.
* One point for each difference of 150 strikeouts.
* One point for each difference of 20 stolen bases.
* One point for each difference of .001 in batting average.
* One point for each difference of .002 in slugging percentage.
To this there is a positional adjustment. Each position has a value, and you subtract the difference between the two players position. James just uses primary position, but I computed an average position for players who had more than one primary position. (See Ernie Banks)
* 240 – Catcher
* 168 – Shortstop
* 132 – Second Base
* 84 – Third Base
* 48 – Outfield (James distinguishes, but I don’t have that data incorporated at the moment)
* 12 – First Base
* 0 – DH
Age Based Similarity Scores
These values are computed in the exact same manner as the above manner. However, instead of comparing an active player’s career to the entire career of retired players, we only compare the active player’s career to the retired player’s career when they were the same age as the active player. This gives more interesting lists for the active players because we get an idea of what path the player is taking.
This doesn’t mean that Vladimir Guerrero was as valuable as Willie Mays over his first three seasons – just that their numbers are similar. The league’s offensive levels and defensive value affect those measurements.
As mentioned in the post
I take a player’s PA through a certain age, then search all players at his position through that age who had /- 25% of those plate appearances, and +/- 10 points of OPS. From there it is a bunch of eyeballing looking for similar types, for which I focus on not just the constituent parts of a slash line, but also what WAR tells us about their value, including baserunning and defense. (If WAR had been available back when I was running comps during last offseason, I would not have, for example, fallen for the Juan Rivera = Brian Jordan boondoggle.)
The B-Ref comps were a great shorthand back in the day, and still have some value, but they do not adjust for offensive context, which is just a huge demerit, and they don’t reflect much in the way of non-batting value.
I meant no criticism
I didn’t mean to imply that the BR method was in any way superior to yours. Your work is outstanding. What I was trying to do is to provide yet any data point to suggest that the trade may not be the worst in sports history. What no one on the site had done yet is to analyze the market for outfielders. There’s not a lot out there. Here’s a good analysis by Alex Speier.
Washington sent us into bizarro world by committing $83 million in 2014-2017 to Jayson Werth, who is five months younger than Vernon Wells.
Vernon Wells is a once great player who was a very good player in 2010. The Angels hope that a change in scenery may revive his career. If Tony Reagins is wrong, he won’t be around after 2011 to worry about the last 3 years of the contract.
The Jayson Werth thing is interesting
But compare their WAR over the last four years. Werth, despite not even being a full time player two of those years, blows Wells out of the water in terms of offensive and defensive value.
Defending maligned chants since 2009
Jayson Werth has certainly produced the last 4 years
But as recently as December 2006, he was nontendered by the Dodgers. Werth has a career trajectory almost unprecedented. How do you accurately predict his next 7 years?
You do the best you can with what you've got
I’m not saying the Nationals made a good signing, but I do think that Werth will be more valuable than Wells over the next four years at least. After that, who knows? Being a late bloomer might actually help Werth in his 35 – 37 seasons.
Defending maligned chants since 2009
Wells' contractual status has been locked for years
He wasn’t an unconstrained free-market commodity. Jayson Werth really should have had no bearing on this situation. The last four years of Wells’ contract were back-loaded to hedge against possible inflation in the US-Canadian exchange rate, so we really aren’t even talking about the same kind of dollars.
Well… We might have the best defensive outfield in the league, that’s not too bad.
by Christoffer James V Ferreira on Jan 24, 2011 3:41 AM PST reply actions
Very surprising, very informative and very unlazy take on Wells. Great job.
The main question I have is how much significance we want to give to the position. Limiting it to center field probably props up the comps a bit, because bad players get moved off center field; whereas bad left-fielders often stay in left field for just about ever. Wells has played center field, obviously, but there seems to be a consensus that he’s not very good at it, and that on many other teams he’d be a corner outfielder. Also, that he will be playing a corner for the Angels.
In an alternate universe, where the Blue Jays developed a center fielder three years ago and moved Wells to right, we’d be talking about him exclusively as a corner. So does that change anything?
If you do this for all outfielders, you end up with quite a few players who aren’t that good. Pete Incaviglia. Ruben Sierra. Dan Ford. Jose Guillen. Should that change how we look at Wells, too? Wells doesn’t remind me of those guys, but he also doesn’t remind me of Kenny Lofton or Brett Butler or a bunch of the center fielders who come up under these parameters. So I’m not sure what’s the most accurate way to think about him.
It does say something about Wells that he’s a center fielder. It says something good. But it also says something about him that he’s not very good at it. When I searched B-Ref under the parameters you set, I actually ended up with 33 center fielders. (I just realized that’s because I searched through age 32. Sorry. I’m not starting over.) Twenty-five had positive Fielding WAR. Wells was -23 runs, the fifth worst. (Though better than Hunter, part of Hunter’s continuing feud with advanced metrics.)
Anyway, that’s just a bunch of “I’m not saying anything I’m just asking questions” nonsense. Overall, this made me much more optimistic. One thing that makes me less optimistic, though:
The center fielders who come up as comps were all good players, through 31. But from age 32 to 35 they were worth an average of 4.8 WAR. Seven players were worth at least 10 WAR in that period, and five — Brett Butler, Kenny Lofton, Torii Hunter, Willie Davis and Max Carey — were still very good, averaging at least 3 WAR/season during those years.
Game's the same, just got more fierce.
And of those five "very good" ones, four were skinnier speed guys
I think Gus Bell was a corner OFer miscast as a CF, but generally if you can battle the position to a draw or slightly less through age 31 you deserve the categorization, and if no one thinks of putting you in CF by that age you probably don’t deserve to be compared to CFers.
I think the overall comp history, including of powerful CFers in general, is against this being a good deal. He’ll have to hit like Torii Hunter to make it work, and hitting like Torii Hunter from 32-34 is the exception, not the rule.
a BIG test of what we are getting comes in just a short while
when ST starts. If Wells shows up 15 pounds or more lighter, it could bode well for his age 34 and 35 years down the road. I think he will be a fine player for us, but that money is puzzling.
there are too many questions being asked about Wells. The proper question is why didn’t we against all analysts perspective, didn’t get money back? Is Reagins just that bad a negotiant?
$20 million back, which was on the low side of a lot of projections, would have made the yearly price at 16.5 million which is much more palatable. Then you subtract the contracts sent to Toronto and this deal could be more spun as a positive move. As of now it is just puzzling
How come when players go to Texas they revitalize their careers? could it be the roids?
by Sinatrasratpack on Jan 24, 2011 7:58 AM PST up reply actions
what is the response from the FO and fans gonna be
when in a few years we lose Kendry and Weaver to some East Coast team, and the FO says that they couldn’t afford their requested salary.
Will they come out and say that the horrible wells contract prohibit them from locking up the players
How come when players go to Texas they revitalize their careers? could it be the roids?
by Sinatrasratpack on Jan 24, 2011 8:00 AM PST up reply actions
No they won't say that
That is my fear as well. That this move will limit our ability to make crucial moves in the future
Reggie Willits: The non-tender candidate of my dreams.
If we are willing to maintain a $140-150 million payroll
We can afford, in terms of dollar per years, to keep both Kendry and Weaver. The question is whether we will be willing to give them a contract for the number of years necessary to sign that type of talent.
Recent history here is mixed. The front office appears to be much more comfortable — for better or worse — trading for other team’s high-priced players for 2-4 years than signing type-A free agents to long-term contracts. On the other hand, we reportedly offered Teix an 8-year deal (for $160M), and we reportedly offered Sabathia a 7-year deal (for $140M). So I would say that anything is possible with regard to Kendry and Weave.
Correct.
A lot of guys here are forgetting that our payroll in just couple years has no commitments. It’s wide open! Better than that, we have a few good, young guys coming up to fill key positions that traditionally cost a lot via FA. If the Angels are willing to meet the # of years Kendry and Weav will want, then they will be able to afford it.
by firebird81 on Jan 24, 2011 8:46 AM PST up reply actions 1 recs
A lot of guys here are forgetting that our payroll in just couple years has no commitments
Except for $24MM to VW.
Angels baseball. We do what we must, because we can -- HaloDutch
We just used 1/7th of that payroll on Wells
Not a good allocation. that is my beef with the trade.
I was very excited about GMJ, Speier, and Rodney coming off of the books
Reggie Willits: The non-tender candidate of my dreams.
Wells in 2011 = 13.529 Mathis
That’s a good value on the Mathis measurement scale….
by mustard_man on Jan 24, 2011 12:01 PM PST up reply actions
Almost everyone agrees that the allocation of resources is questionable
The question, however, was whether we have enough left to re-sign Kendry and Weave. We do. Not saying we will do it. Just that there is no reason to assume we won’t. We have made big-time offers before — Teix and Sabathia — and we will have the payroll space. Plus, I think that Weave and Kendry will be much more desirable to the team than, for example, Lackey, Vlad, and Figgins were when they became free agents.
All that said, given our past history with Boras and our reluctance to go big in terms of years, I would not be surprised if we lost either or both of them.
Not only that
But Weaver and Kendry are now going to want at least Wells money from the Angels. Assuming we had a chance at a home town discount, which we probably did not anyway cause of Boras, the bar has just been raised to $22M per. Before, the hometown discount was probably in the range of Hunter money, $18M per.
Oh man, I can just see Boras' negotiating tactics now
“You’re paying a guy $21 million to put up a .285, 25 HRs and 85 RBI’s. Morales and Weaver must be worth at least $25 million to you then.”
Defending maligned chants since 2009
Those guys were never going to give hometown discounts
We will have to pay at least as much as anyone else is willing to pay. Period.
Anyone worried that Reagins will trade Weaver?
Napoli, the other arbitration eligible candidate, says hello from Toronto.
A wise man does not need advice and a fool won't take it.
by angelslogic on Jan 24, 2011 12:42 PM PST up reply actions
Weaver has way more value to the organization than Napoli did
Is it possible? Sure. But I think it is highly unlikely.
I agree with you.
But after all that’s gone on in the past month, I’m getting to the point where nothing will surprise me.
A wise man does not need advice and a fool won't take it.
by angelslogic on Jan 24, 2011 12:47 PM PST up reply actions
I don't think Weaver will be traded, but I do think this deal makes him less likely to re-sign.
Our offense will continue to be anemic and the bloated contract of VW will inhibit our ability to sign someone truly worth being in VW’s payscale to help out.
I imagine Weave will get tired of losing a bunch of 2-1 and 3-2 games. If the current FO is still running the show though, he won’t be traded. That would be a sign of rebuilding.
And it appears to me that this FO would prefer the public perception of him walking away rather than a public admission that the team is in need of serious repair.
F U Jeff Mathis. We want Mike Napoli back.
I'm not so sure about that.
Yes, I know the reputation that Boras has, but Weaver is from around here and probably likes the SoCal atmosphere.
Kendry chose to sign with the Angels in the first place when he was a free agent out of Cuba.
That has got to count for something, right?
Meaning, if we are in the ballpark of the top offers, very close, we might stand a chance. That, or we might be allow the opportunity to match competitor’s offers. That being said, it’s not like you can trust Boras when he tells you what so and so is offering… ala A-Rod to the Rangers.
I think Aerosmith sang a song that fits here ...
“DREAM ON!”
(in response to Hometown Discounts for Kendry and Weaver)
I love this team.
by Downing Rules on Jan 24, 2011 1:50 PM PST up reply actions
I agree.
I don’t think Morales or Weaver would give a hometown discount and I don’t think they should have too. But I’d hope that they’d consider giving the Angels the opportunity to match offers. That is all.
Its weird to me how some athletes think of Southern California as a Baseball Oblivion. We’re only nine years removed from a World Series Championship and outside of a 3 or 4 years have made post-season play nearly the entire decade.
The Angels are not an inferior team, but sometimes it seems like free agents think so.
RIP Nick Adenhart 4/9/09
I blog about the Angels at First2Third.net
Weaver might not give much of a discount
But I could see him signing an extension before free agency if the Angels made a top notch offer. It might be a tad less than what he’d get on the market, but I think the points about him growing up here and having an identity here are valid. Plus Weaver’s a fly ball pitcher, and in a couple years we could have the best OF defense in baseball.
Morales? No way. If he has even a halfway decent season, he’s going to take whatever some will give him. That’s just my impression, but I don’t think he’s got strong ties here.
Defending maligned chants since 2009
I remember when Biggs was on the air last year
And Weaver said something like “Its not always about the money,” with regard to his pending free agency. I don’t know Weaver anymore than I know any of the players, but it seems like to me that he has been very happy here and would like to remain here. But with Boras as your agent, you just never know.
And maybe it is in bad taste, but I thought after the passing of Adenhart, who was repped by Boras, would help to mend the Halos fences. I guess not.
RIP Nick Adenhart 4/9/09
I blog about the Angels at First2Third.net
Matt, I think this statement has to resonate with folks for a while before they get too comfortable with this trade.
I think the overall comp history, including of powerful CFers in general, is against this being a good deal.
Player for player, this deal is break even. But when viewed in finacial terms, it’s a bust.
A wise man does not need advice and a fool won't take it.
Crawford and Wells
Look at their 162 game average stats on b-ref and the comparisons are very close. Crawford’s OPS+ of 107 for his career is just a point shy of Wells’ 108. Crawford had 297 Total Bases last year and Wells had 304. Crawford steals a hell of a lot more bases and hits more triples, but Wells hits more home-runs and averages 39 doubles a season. What makes Crawford worth 20mm a year for seven years and Wells not worth about the same? 86mm – 5.25mm (Rivera’s contract) = about 20mm a year.
by stereoscopic on Jan 24, 2011 8:16 AM PST reply actions 1 recs
OPS+ greatly understates Crawford's value
He plays terrific defense, and is one of the best baserunners in the game.
Matt, when all these different categories of statistics either underestimate,
overestimate, don’t take this or that into account, or mathematically differ from someone else’s system, how does the casual, or even the studious, fan know what, the hell, to believe about any of this?
Are B-Ref.com and Fangraphs not giving us the whole scoop?
Do we call Eddie Bane to ask him what he thinks?
It's difficult,
Especially when the differences come in the stats that are harder to find (baserunning) or more difficult to measure (fielding). I know Bill James has some pretty comprehensive baserunning stats, but his site is behind a pay wall. Otherwise you’re looking at baserunning WAR from BBRef or something, and I’m not sure of the calculations there.
As for fielding, there are a lot of divergent systems out there. Sometimes they agree on a player, sometimes they don’t. I think you have to look at them all, see if they reach a consensus. If they do, you can bet the right answer is somewhere in that vicinity. If not, compare what they say with what you’ve seen by watching the games. Rivera was rated as poor by one metric, but average by another. If I’m using my head, he seems much more on the poorer side than average, so skew your rating to that side.
As for OPS+, that’s strictly an offensive measure. So when you’re talking about a player like Crawford, who hits a bit above average, you’re not seeing the whole package when you look at OPS+. He’s a terrific defender as well as a terrific baserunner. Vernon Wells is neither, being mediocre at both. So though they are only one point apart in OPS+ (and, to be honest, OPS+ under-rates OBP, where Crawford has the advantage), we can be confident that Crawford has a significant advantage in the other parts of the game that can be measured, even if we don’t have an exact number we can pin on that advantage.
Defending maligned chants since 2009
Defense
I was under the impression that Wells was a terrific defender in center only a few seasons back. Moving him to left and getting free of some weight and the nagging injuries would seem to bode well for his future there right? But then I checked it out and Crawford is really off the charts good and Gold Gloves are more meaningless than I already thought.. But lifetime OBP at .337 (Crawford) to .329 (Wells) seems to hardly be a big advantage.
by stereoscopic on Jan 24, 2011 10:34 AM PST up reply actions
Wells used to be a good defender
But as Matt mentions, he’s got a different body type now and is not the same guy out in center. Moving him to left will certainly improve his defense, but it won’t improve his overall value, since left field is an easier position to play. It also won’t suddenly turn him into Carl Crawford out there.
As for the OBP, no it’s not big, but I didn’t say it was. Mostly I threw that in there to make the point that even if you look at a strictly offensive metric like OPS+, Crawford is pretty much the same guy as Wells. And then is MUCH better in other aspects.
Defending maligned chants since 2009
It's not as difficult as it sounds, if you have the patience to unpack stuff & trace the math back
OPS simply adds two things that shouldn’t necessarily be added, giving you the illusion that a .300 OBP with a .550 slugging is just as valuable as .400/.450. The main benefit of OPS+ (which is the only time I ever use OPS in any form), is that it adjusts for league and park contexts.
WAR, on the other hand, cobbles together more stuff, makes more adjustments, to produce a single comprehensible number that you can nevertheless adjust to your own benefit by looking and re-jiggering its constituent parts.
Mostly, you’re looking to strip out distorting contexts on raw numbers, then look for guys who produced similarly.
The Stooges need to hire you
Real nice work!
by mustard_man on Jan 24, 2011 10:58 AM PST up reply actions
Excellent analysis, Matt
Once again, I am impressed. And for the first time, I am feeling a lot better about this deal. Thanks.
It's not gonna be that bad people..........
it will be okay.
Good job MW.
The score dictated they pass
by norcaliangelsfan on Jan 24, 2011 8:51 AM PST reply actions 1 recs
Salary commitment is also similar
$86MM/4 to Wells, $90MM/5 to Hunter over the respective lives of their contracts (if I recall correctly).
Wells shows more signs of aging, but his contract is shorter. There is also no telling how age will affect Hunter in years 4-5 of his contract until he has played them (so there is no control to the larger holistic experiment; we can’t really quantify decline just yet). So the comparative value of the contracts cannot be determined until after 2014. We might get 3 good years out of Wells. We might have already had our 3 good years from Hunter as he nears the age requirement for the US Presidency.
This is more or less suggests the contractual cost-benefit analysis may yet prove positive: average $88MM commitment each for three seasons of above-average offensive production and defensive upgrade. And Hunter (bear with me) still has potential to be a future detriment to OF defense if his range and speed suddenly drop off in his mid-30s (it happens a lot).
If Matt is right to highlight the offensive comparability of these two players at the same age, then the real litmus test of whether you like this deal should be:
Would I trade for a second Torri Hunter with his original contract to pair with the Torri Hunter I already have?
As long as the 2nd one stays at 2nd base until someone hits the ball
Scioscialist Party of America - Redistributing your defense since 2000.
by Commander_Nate on Jan 24, 2011 8:57 AM PST up reply actions
Reasons to be happy
Good analysis Matt, know one knows for sure how this trade is going to pan out but I think the Angels are closer to significally better with the trade than they are to marginally better. Bottom line is they ARE better with Vernon Wells patrolling LF.
Things to think about, because baseball is a funny game and a lot of weird things happen during the course of the season. If everything comes together obviously, which is rare, you have a championship team. But I am sick of all the whingeing about losing Napoli and Rivera and the salaries. A couple weird things, that if they happen, could make us a significantly better team than last year.
— Bobby Wilson. It seems clear that Scioscia is prepared to carry 3 catchers (especially as Conger could be used as DH). What if Bobby Wilson does something like hit .300 with 15 bombs, which he is capable of doing. I’m not saying he’s gonna do it, but if it does Mike Napoli will be a long way in our rear-view mirrors.
— Pete Bourjos proves capable of hitting .270-.280 and handling the leadoff spot. That makes our outfield defense the best in baseball between Wells and Hunter, but if he can hit a lick, even at 9th, we’re still a better club.
— Our bullpen is really strong. Let’s say something happens to Fernando Rodney and then Jordan Walden posts 40 saves? Who would bitch about that?
— When fast Vernon Wells gets down to first base fast enough to stop an inning-ending double play (ala Napoli/Rivera/Vlad) and we end up with a big inning instead of another great big zero.
— Hank Conger earns the starting catching job and mashes. It could happen. He seems like the kind of player to have that potential and the intensity to make it happen.
— Abreu DH-ing and focusing on GETTING ON BASE improves our leadoff situation.
I could think of a few more, but the negativity to this move I see around here so often is getting stale. WE GOT BETTER. As for the money, it’s Arte’s and I don’t see him backing out when key guys like Weaver need their payday.
Like I said, baseball is a weird game and the Angels are a habitually weird team. Something strange always happens with our team. Expect something you wouldn’t expect in 2011, because something unexpected is going to happen. Let’s just hope these unexpected things benefit our boys in red.
One thing I’m sure about though: Maicer Izturis is going to land on the DL this year. If I could get these English bookies to take that bet, I’d put a grand on it.
Don't call me Bugs. Although Bugs Bunny could do it all on the baseball field.
I doubt we carry three catchers
We will have six guys out of the bullpen, five starters, and 14 guys on offense. We know our starting lineup will include Kendry (1B), Hunter (RF), Wells (LF), Abreu (DH), Kendrick (2B), Aybar (SS), and Bourjos (CF). Either Izturis or Callaspo will start at third base, and the other one will be on the bench. Mathis and Willits will make the roster. In my opinion, Wood will too, because he can back up at short, third, and first base, and we just traded away two potential back-ups at first.
That leaves two spots. Could we use both of them on catchers? I suppose so. But I think it is much more likely that Trumbo or Pettit will make the team, and that Conger will continue to get catching experience, which Scioscia thinks he needs, at AAA. The only way that does not happen is if Conger blows away Mathis and Wilson during spring training. That is possible, but if it does happen, I think Bobby Wilson’s tenure with the Angels will be over.
As much as I dislike Dave Cameron
I can’t find fault with this writeup he posted on Fangraphs today. He’s even more optimistic than I am.
Wells has had four seasons at the plate good enough to justify this contract. The problem is that it has taken him nine tries in order to produce those four years, and now he has to go four-for-four while entering his mid-30s. If you think we’re being too hard on the Angels here, well, that’s the burden that the contract places upon him. They are essentially paying him to repeat his 2003-2006 years (he was 24-27 at the time) at the plate while simultaneously hoping that defensive metrics have judged him incorrectly.
If Wells can hit like he did when he was younger, if he can stay healthy for four consecutive years, and if he’s a better defender than most people seem to think, than he might be worth the money. That’s an amazing amount of risk for some really limited upside, though.
That statement comes after making some rather generous assumptions in the Angels’ favor, as well as neglecting the park factors behind Wells’ home/road splits. I can’t see how one highly improbable outcome constitutes a defense for this trade as a business decision.
by Suboptimal on Jan 24, 2011 11:20 AM PST reply actions 2 recs
+1 .
Another valid reality check
A wise man does not need advice and a fool won't take it.
by angelslogic on Jan 24, 2011 11:38 AM PST up reply actions
I would say 3-for-4 would get it done, particularly if it's the first 3
I would not say, however, that that is likely.
I applaud finding the rose in the pile of shit
However it does seem that Cameron is really reaching…..
by mustard_man on Jan 24, 2011 12:03 PM PST up reply actions
I don't think he's reaching
There are so many caveats in that excerpt alone, that you can’t say he’s making any sort of claim that it was a good move. He’s basically saying that it’s not a lost cause, but that there are several huge “if’s” in the way before the Angels can call this a worthwhile trade.
I think that so many people have absolutely panned this trade we were bound to see some pieces come out about the opposite side – is there any way it could actually work? I think it can, although you have to do some pretty rigorous stretching and hoping to get there.
Defending maligned chants since 2009
Is someone who just turned 32 really in his "mid-30s"?
I ask I turned 31 a few months ago, and I don’t consider myself to be entering my mid-30s.
I'd call 33-37 the "mid-thirties"
So if he just turned 32, I think it’s fair to say that he’s “entering” his mid-thirties, since he’ll be 33 or older for the majority of his tenure.
As well with where a player hits.
I don’t take his previous numbers at Angels stadium to mean a lot for the future. The only thing that will be similar between then and now is that its the same park however the biggest factor will be different now and that is the pitchers. The home/road splits still stand but we can’t take much from his play at Angels stadium in the past.
Site Moderator on MockingtheDraft, AnaheimCalling, and Coltzilla.
Lead organizer of the annual 7-round live mock draft at MtD
by TheAngelsColts on Jan 24, 2011 5:26 PM PST up reply actions

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