Navigation: Jump to content areas:


Pro Quality. Fan Perspective.
Login-facebook
Around SBN: UFC 146 Results: Junior dos Santos TKO's Frank Mir

How Umpiring Undoes Sabermetric Personality Types

Texas got so slaughtered in Game 3 of the World Series that I was a little shocked to see the whole state of Arlington whining about a bad umpiring call that took place early in the game. 1B umpire Ron Kulpa missed a swipe tag of Matt Holliday by Mike Napoli that would have been the second out of an inning that suddenly yielded runs from the point of the blown call.

Star-divide

 

In the 2009 ALCS, the same Mike Napoli, then in full catcher's regalia, walked down to third base and tagged two Yankees, neither of whom were standing on a base. Only one was called out. Angels fans spun into a tizzy. It was yet another call in New York's favor, another terrible and egregious call in that postseason of bad umpiring.

Well the Saber set went to work to use Win Expectancy to show that the terrible call only changed the outcome of the game against the Angels a smidgen and led to no direct scoring. In that blindspot of explaining numbers that does not comprehend the emotional reality of what transpired, the numbers-crunching tisk-tisking from computerland only embittered Angels fans.

It is so easy to sit on the sidelines when it is not your team and point out the math (in tonight's case 16-7 = 9 run deficit almost none of which can be hung on Ron Kulpa). Meanwhile Texas fans in general have the feeling that if only umpiring were perfect, their team would have been in a better position to make more of the game for themselves early on.

But there is a disingenuous subset of Texas Rangers fan that clucked all season long about the numbers, about the run differential being so great for the Rangers that there was no reason to panic when the Angels got to within a game and a half. When they were on top, those Antler-Toting Kalculator Kids were too cool to be fans and express emotion. No, they had the numbers with which to justify a passive attitude toward a summer-long pennant race.

And so tonight these same Differential Dweebs ignore a gaping chasm of nine runs and fixate on a bad call. From a commitment to calculus to beating-off to the butterfly effect in one inning. Bad umpiring is the equalizer. It destroys the continuity of their comfortable numbers and, so ensconced in quantifying the real into artificial mathematical representations, the real fan inside them that they have tried to protect with a mountain of spreadsheets is like an infant exposed to the gargoyles and bleacher bums that have heretofore been kept safely stashed under the bed. And now the heresy of feeling over thinking has them grasping at self-pity as a coping mechanism.

You will never understand that your grasp of the game was ever limited. You aren't a well-rounded analyst when your team gets laughably mocked in a 16-7 route and you whine about one umpiring call. You aren't an analyst at all. You're a fan. Welcome aboard. I hope you have to sit in your stadium and see your team lose the next two. And if you choose to fixate on the blown call for the rest of your life, you will show your limited capacity at understanding all the numbers that define the game. But that is because you will be so much bigger than any analyst. You will be a fan.

Comment 61 comments  |  3 recs  | 

Do you like this story?

Comments

Display:

I agree with all you said.

That one out that wasn’t would have still seen all but one or two of those runs in that inning, if everything else happened.

The one thing that sabermetrics does not take into account is the emotional side of the game, the extreme distraction that is caused by a spectacularly bad call by the umpire, as we saw in New York and as we saw in Chicago. New York would possibly have won that game but not at the cost of all momentum and the loss of confidence. I have no doubt that the Chicago series would have ended differently. I believe that there is a detrimental psychological effect on the players who experience a call that bad.

THIS… IS… ANAHEIM!!

by opiejeanne on Oct 23, 2011 12:21 AM PDT reply actions  

momentum does matter

momentum can change on a play, but you never know because no one cab travel back in time.
Moises Alou made a big scene over that play, but it happens a lot in baseball. Players don’t get that demonstrative about it usually. The Cubs were ahead, but that Marlins team was stacked.

This is going to be my team, and we're going to rise together.
-Clipper Darrell

by oasisman on Oct 23, 2011 1:10 AM PDT via iPhone app up reply actions  

True.

That’s what numbers can’t quantify. Back in the 2005 ALCS when we were playing Chicago, right after that blown call in the dirt that should’ve been strike three on AJ Pierzynski, I told my father that we just lost the series. He thought I was being dramatic. Sure enough, the next batter (Joe Crede) hit the game winning home-run, and Chicago ended up beating the Angels to adavance to the World Series, which they also ended up winning.

I truly believe every postseason series comes down to one point where the momentum shifts to one side. It could be a blown call, a clutch play or a costly error. Regardless of the form it comes, every series can be defined by that one play or series of plays.

by moralesforpresident on Oct 23, 2011 2:16 AM PDT via mobile up reply actions  

All true

Except I think it was a double. And something about the sneakiness, how Pierzynski played the ump made it so much worse than a simple, human error. The Angels got hosed, intentionally, by the enemy, and the umps went along with hit. Still pisses me off.

by Rock Island Line on Oct 23, 2011 7:25 AM PDT up reply actions  

I will NEVER not be pissed off by that!

Every time I hear the name “Doug Eddings”, I want to punch him, Bud Selig, and Abner Doubleday.

You boys stick around--there'll be turkey and ice cream later!

by rspencer on Oct 23, 2011 1:12 PM PDT up reply actions  

Sure

Just like armaments had a lot more to do with our winning the Revolutionary War than Paul Revere’s ride did. It’s just that Revere kinda got the ball rolling in our direction.

You boys stick around--there'll be turkey and ice cream later!

by rspencer on Oct 23, 2011 1:15 PM PDT up reply actions  

Would have been a whole different series

going back to Anaheim up 2-0. That Angels team was playing on fumes after all that travel in the Yankees series and had nothing left after losing in such a demoralizing fashion.

by turs12 on Oct 24, 2011 10:00 PM PDT up reply actions  

exactly

not to mention that, don 2-0, Guillen “mixes it up” to spark the team and that inadvertently takes the pieces off the table that were there for the victories.

by Rev Halofan on Oct 25, 2011 5:00 PM PDT up reply actions  

Seriously though...

I love how “momentum” suddenly becomes something quantifiable. It’s like when people talk about “having a lot of heart”. That may be true that the momentum shifted (which shows how shitty your team must be to give up like that) but that doesn’t change the fact that Albert Pujols smashed the asshole of every Texas Ranger in that stadium. Also, maybe Kinsler should learn how to throw a ball and then we don’t have to have this debate.

Tim Salmon: The once and future Kingfish.

by Teixeira Who? on Oct 23, 2011 4:25 AM PDT reply actions  

yeah

I really don’t get how one baserunner that shouldn’t be there “rattles” a pitcher so early in a game

"id take 5th Dimention Wormhole Rivera over Wells any day of the week"
-clover_black

by the king of CERA on Oct 23, 2011 11:59 PM PDT up reply actions  

I wish I had a screencap of that 2nd row computer geek Ranger fan ...

who had a lazy foul popfly graze his elbow and his mug wincing in pain … he was wearing an antler shirt. It was a classic image.

I love this team.

by Downing Rules on Oct 23, 2011 6:27 AM PDT via mobile reply actions  

Put your hand out and catch the ball next time, dude.

They’ll even let you take it home as a souvenir. Imagine that!

by Rock Island Line on Oct 23, 2011 7:35 AM PDT up reply actions  

16-7 *rout*

The route thereto began with the blown call.

Witty .sig goes here.

by scareduck on Oct 23, 2011 7:13 AM PDT reply actions  

What's your point?

By putting asterisks around “route,” are you suggesting it really wan’t a route? And while we’re on the subject of causes and effects, remember that the blown call began with a blown throw. And before the shitty throw was a ground ball, and before that a pitch. And on the seventh day God rested. Again, what’s your point?

Perhaps we can put it another way. If Ian Kinsler’s daddy had pulled out of mommy at the crucial moment, he wouldn’t have been born, and so someone else would have thrown that double play relay back to Napoli, probably on target, and then the Rangers would have won. It’s not fair!

by Rock Island Line on Oct 23, 2011 7:33 AM PDT up reply actions  

Look up the definition of "route".

Then, look up the definition of “rout”.

That was the point.

by foxpaw on Oct 23, 2011 9:19 AM PDT up reply actions  

When you pull the first baseman way off the bag

On a routine play, bad things tend to happen. Likewise, when you jerk the ball to the backstop on a routine throw to home, bad things tend to happen.

by Rock Island Line on Oct 23, 2011 7:27 AM PDT reply actions  

Rev Halo

I enjoy your reporting, your feedback. I love to read what you say almost always. In fact, it WAS %100 until your article posted as “How Umpiring Undoes Sabermetric Personality Types”. Did you know that ONE of your sentences contained 56 words?! Thank God for my own Doctorate, or I might not have made through the article.
No offense, Rev, but this is a Sport Site. You could have written a terrific story about a dry subject like Sabermetric’s. I know you could. I’ve read you before. But this post read like a term paper. Not all of our readers can absorb a 56 word sentence. Hell, we have a lot of readers under 16.
All in all a great story. But, again, this is a sport site, and (hopefully) not offending anyone, but sometimes we have to consider our audience.

David B Fox

by Hypnotist on Oct 23, 2011 9:21 AM PDT reply actions  

wow

Not all of our readers can absorb a 56 word sentence. Hell, we have a lot of readers under 16.
All in all a great story. But, again, this is a sport site, and (hopefully) not offending anyone, but sometimes we have to consider our audience.

Are yous tryin to say we here is stoopid or somethin? Yeah Rev, pleez talk DOWNN to us sum moar.

Actually, NO. We do not have a lot of readers under 16. Most of us are professionals; lawyers, medical, professors, computer types and a few college students thrown in. Yes, we have one pseudo-intellect of around 15 but we usually ignore him.

Your basic intellectual baseball nuts. I’ve been on the site for several years and I have yet to hear one complaint. As a matter of fact, there are several of us that are appreciative for the higher level of intelligence present on this site. We can actually form sentences without every other word being a cuss word.

So carry on Rev. Can’t wait for Stirrups to reply….where’s my popcorn?

I'm an Angels fan

by ladybug on Oct 23, 2011 10:00 AM PDT up reply actions  

Two Cents

I happen to like this post very much. It’s insightful, smart and funny. The long sentences, as is typical of the author’s style, make for a manic, ranty vibe that always cracks me up. I understand that the sports page of the newspaper has always been the place for idiosyncratic voices within the usually dry sound of generic journalism.

Keep Halos Heaven weird!

by Rock Island Line on Oct 23, 2011 10:11 AM PDT up reply actions  

One of those

When can I breath again, sentences.

by eyespy on Oct 27, 2011 3:26 PM PDT up reply actions  

As a twenty year old college student.

The diction and syntax were hardly difficult to understand. It is often refreshing to not habitually see “We win you suck” type of sentence structure. If some 16 year old has to open a dictionary on occasion, so be it. The broadening of their vocabulary can only be beneficial.

The 2011 Angels, the biggest cocktease ever.

by Angelsrthebest101 on Oct 23, 2011 10:32 AM PDT up reply actions  

I think he was referring to a certain someone

who’s been banned yet still exists around here.

"The older I get, the more I learn, the more I hate how useless old rich people are at doing things correctly." ~ Phislamma

Angels 2011 W-L record with the alternate red jersey: 17-12

by blast21dave on Oct 23, 2011 11:15 AM PDT up reply actions  

And yes.

The 2011 Angels, the biggest cocktease ever.

by Angelsrthebest101 on Oct 23, 2011 11:35 AM PDT up reply actions  

And the same with me. haha

Not everyone is going to know every word in the English language. We would be wasting our time.

The 2011 Angels, the biggest cocktease ever.

by Angelsrthebest101 on Oct 23, 2011 11:34 AM PDT up reply actions  

I a man, and I think I know everything.

Ask the ladies on this site, I think they will agree with me.

by eyespy on Oct 27, 2011 3:28 PM PDT up reply actions  

Hopefully not offending anyone?

Oh, please, mr i’ve-got-a-doctorate-and-I-have-a-need-to-wave-it-in-peoples’-faces, this is not Lone Star Ball. This is Halos Heaven, where we are not intimidated by books without pictures in them nor by words of more than two syllables.

THIS… IS… ANAHEIM!!

by opiejeanne on Oct 23, 2011 11:49 AM PDT up reply actions  

Nothing wrong with long sentences if properly constructed

Or perhaps you’re simply being highly ironic by criticizing Rev’s writing by using abstruse statistics that have nothing to do with the content of the article.

You boys stick around--there'll be turkey and ice cream later!

by rspencer on Oct 23, 2011 1:19 PM PDT up reply actions  

But why can't you be both a Sabrematrics guy and a fan?

 Don’t we do it all the time here? We deride the people who call us ‘lucky’ because the numbers said we can’t be that good and then we use these same numbers to say how bad a player is?

by Halos in DE on Oct 23, 2011 12:03 PM PDT reply actions  

you CAN

it just takes empathy and self-awareness.

by Rev Halofan on Oct 23, 2011 12:23 PM PDT up reply actions  

I'm too busy worrying about my self to know if I'm empathetic.

My response to your letter of February 19, 1976, is - kiss my ass.
Sincerely,
Bill Baxley, Attorney General

by sheisalovelyladyandmyapologiestoher on Oct 23, 2011 12:28 PM PDT up reply actions  

Statistics can tell you a lot about what happens on a scale of hundreds of games

But one game, or one inning, or one play? Forget it. Single events are not statistical. I will agree with Texas fans about one thing: if the Rangers and Cardinals played 100 games, the Rangers would probably win 55-60 times. However, somewhere in that 100-game series, you would almost certainly find at least one stretch in which the Cardinals won four out of seven.

This is what makes baseball so worthwhile to me. Regularity and self-normalization in the regular season, unpredictability and mayhem in the playoffs. It’s like settling an epic game of chess with a quick round of Russian roulette. I might actually watch the World Chess Championship if the FIDE instituted that rule.

If you couldn’t live with that, you really have no business following the MLB postseason.

by Suboptimal on Oct 23, 2011 1:24 PM PDT up reply actions   1 recs

i agree with you, i really wasn't talking about the postseason

i was more intrigued by Rev’s argument which he later responded to (about being a fan vs. numbers)

by Halos in DE on Oct 23, 2011 6:31 PM PDT up reply actions  

"Nepali! Nepali! Nepali!"

(Context: My wife is Sherpa. Our three sons are half Sherpa. I don’t go anywheres without my Sherpas — including the 2011 World Series.)

Suka, Roger and I are back from Texas. Suka led the cheers with “Nepali! Nepali! Nepali!” every time Mike Napoli came to bat. Napoli had 7 rbis in the three games we saw. Game 5 had a trifecta: ex-Dodger Adrian Beltre had a game-tieing home run, ex-Angel Mike Napoli had the game-winning hit, and ex-Angel Darren Oliver was the winning pitcher. Game 3 saw a Ruthian performance by Albert Pujols. That Albert went 5-for-6 to tie three World Series one game records (5 hits, 3 HRs, and 6 RBI) and set one (14 TB). Inbetween Derek (Dutch Treat) Holland hurled 8 1/3 innings of 2-hit shutout ball to earn the win in Game 4. That was a far cry from Holland’s 13 pitch (1 strike, 12 balls) three walk relief appearance is 2010 WS Game 2 in San Francisco (that I went to) that helped turn a 2-0 Giants lead into a 9-0 forfeit score.

Is Tony LaRussa senile or suffering from Alzheimers disease? You don’t have LOOGY Marc Rzepczynski warm up in the bullpen without a righthanded pitcher warming up at the same time. It does not matter how loud it was during the telephone call to the bullpen—the bullpen coach should have known better. Perhaps the Cardinals will have a new bullpen coach next year? Having a lefthanded pitcher pitch to Mike Napoli with the bases loaded late in a tie game is tantamount to presenting the World Series trophy to Napoli on a silver platter. I am confident with my Rangers in six games World Series prediction.
 
Kudos to Allen Craig for getting thrown out stealing in the 7th and 9th innings in Game 5. That was the first time since 1955 a player had been caught stealing twice in a World Series game. That gave catcher Napoli more ammo in his MVP quest. The 7th inning caught stealing was damning because it created an intentional walk for Pujols. The 7th inning caught stealing came on a 1-1 pitch. In the 9th inning it was on a 3-2 pitch. Yes, Pujols led the N.L. in grounding into doubleplays (GIDP) in 2011 with 29. Three of those GIDPs were on Opening Day. That Albert led the N.L. in GIDPs wire-to-wire in 2011. Albert never had a day out of GIDP first place.
 
The only way to drink Johnny Walker Black Label or Seagrams Crown Royal (no Jack Daniels) at the Rangers Ballpark in Arlington is in speakeasys on the second deck club level near the left and right field foul poles. The left field speakeasy had fans lined up outside waiting to get in. Rather than wait in line I walked halfway around the stadium to the other speakeasy. There was nothing secret about the speakeasys. They had clear glass windows so you could see inside and outside. However, a security guard was stationed at the door to make sure no alcoholic drinks left the drinking room. So much for buying a double and taking it to your seat. Clearly visiting the speakeasy was only a worthwhile pregame activity.
 
The Holiday Inn we stayed at was a mile north/northwest of the ballpark. Suka and I drank Cabernet Sauvignon before and after each of the three games. Four bottles were enough for three games. A marguerita vendor came through the stands so we would not be dry during the games.
 
There was a missed call in Game 3. Pujols led off the top of the 4th inning with a line single to leftcenter. Matt Holiday followed with a bouncer deep in the hole at short. Elvis Andrus started a 6-4-3 doubleplay. Second baseman Ian Kinsler’s throw to first pulled Napoli off of the bag. However, Napoli did tag Holliday on the helmet before Holliday stepped on first base. Ron Kulpa (born and bred a St. Louis Cardinals fan) was the first base umpire who muffed the call.
 
**********************************************************************************
Ron Kulpa
From Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia (without two photos)
Jump to: navigation, search
 
Kulpa in 2008.
 
Kulpa’s controversial call in game three of 2011 World Series
Ronald Clarence Kulpa (born October 5, 1968 in St. Louis, Missouri) is an umpire in Major League Baseball. He wears uniform number 46.

Prior to pursuing professional umpiring, Kulpa attended Missouri Baptist College. His professional umpiring career began in 1992 and he advanced to the Pacific Coast League in 1998. Kulpa was one of the 22 umpires promoted in the wake of the Major League Umpires Association’s mass-resignation strategy in July 1999, and was named to the National League staff for the remainder of the 1999 season. When the umpiring staffs from the two leagues merged for the 2000 season, Kulpa began working in both leagues.

He has worked one World Series (2011), one Championship Series (2005), and five Division Series (2001, 2002, 2006, 2007, and 2011). He also umpired the All-Star Game in 2001.

Kulpa was infamously head-butted by Carl Everett of the Boston Red Sox in 2000 during an argument about the location of the inner boundary of the batter’s box. Kulpa was also the home plate umpire when Detroit Tigers pitcher Justin Verlander threw a no-hitter at Comerica Park vs. the Milwaukee Brewers on June 12, 2007. Five days before Verlander’s no-hitter, Kulpa called balls and strikes in a game between the Red Sox and the Oakland Athletics in which Boston pitcher Curt Schilling had a no-hitter until Shannon Stewart broke up the no-hitter with a single with two outs in the bottom of the ninth inning.

For the 2011 season, Kulpa is assigned to Derryl Cousins’ crew along with Jim Joyce and Jim Wolf.

[edit] 2011 World Series Controversy
Working the third game of the 2011 World Series (his first World Series as an umpire), Kulpa controversially called St. Louis Cardinals hitter Matt Holliday safe after Holliday grounded into what would have been the second out of a routine double play in the game’s fourth inning. Kulpa claimed that Holliday had arrived at first base prior to the tag from Texas Rangers first baseman Mike Napoli, although replays subsequently proved that Napoli had indeed tagged him out by a full stride, prior to Holliday’s stumbling across the base and falling.1 Kulpa later told a pool reporter after the game that he was aware Napoli had tagged Holliday, but he thought Holliday’s foot was already on the base. He did not ask for a second opinion.1 When the game ended, Kulpa reviewed the play on tape and admitted he should have called Holliday out. The Cardinals went on to win the game 16-7.

The neutrality of this section is disputed. Please see the discussion on the talk page. Please do not remove this message until the dispute is resolved. (October 2011)

The next night Kulpa was behind the plate, and many thought he had a “generous strike zone”. Assumptions had been made that this was because of the blown call the night before.2

Back to my take (as read off my scorecard). Instead of two outs and nobody on base there was one out and a runner on first. Lance Berkman singled, David Freese doubled in a run, and Yadier Molina was intentionally walked. Jon Jay then hit a bouncer to Napoli at first. Napoli attempted a 3-2-3 doubleplay but did a Steve Garvey throwing the ball behind catcher Yorvit Torrealba to the backstop for an error allowing two runs to score. With two outs Napoli simply would have stepped on first base to end the inning with NO runs scored. A Ryan the Riot single plated the fourth run of the inning. Rafael Furcal bounced into a 1-2 forceout and Ranger starter Matt Harrison was removed from the game. Scott Feldman came in and the Cardinal shooting gallery shifted to automatic fire in the next inning.

Vin Scully says there are no predestined events in baseball. Change Holliday’s 4th inning 6-4 forceout into a 6-4-3 doubleplay and the entire complexion of the game changes. With their starting pitcher Harrison still in the game and down only 1-0 the Rangers may well of won this game and emerged victorious in five games in the World Series. Was umpire Ron Kulpa drinking Budweiser or Lone Star after Game 3?

Kulpa’s bad call set the stage for a Cardinals rout. I am confident that if you told Ranger manager Ron Washington that Albert Pujols would hit three home runs in the World Series Skipper Washington would reply “I hope he hits them all in one game.” In Game 3 of the World Series Pujols had five hits (two singles and three home runs). In the other four World Series games Pujols has zero-nada-zilch hits.

Trick or treat? It was a treat seeing Pujols hat trick. It more than made up for missing the April 15th tax day Cardinals @ Dodgers game in which Pujols and Lance Berkman (Sir Lancelot a.k.a. Fat Elvis) each hit two home runs. We had to miss that slugfest because Roger had a Lions Play Action Flag Football game that night. Would I rather have two Albert regular season home runs in the bush or three Albert World Series home runs in the hand? I’ll take the World Series trio. Game 3 saw the greatest offensive one game individual performance in World Series history. Only Babe Ruth (1926 and 1928) and Reggie Jackson (1977) had previously hit three home runs in one World Series game.

This makes eight consecutive seasons (2004-2011) I have seen the team that wins the World Series win a post-season game. We saw the Rangers take two-out-of-three games from the Cardinals. I have both teams covered this year. Pete Rose says don’t bet on a streak to end. I am all for doing this again next year!

In 2010 San Francisco Giants fans left Pac Bell Park World Series games chanting “U-ri-be! U-ri-be! U-ri-be!” In 2011 Texas Rangers fans left the Ballpark in Arlington chanting “Na-po-li! Na-po-li! Na-po-li!” I have seen Uribe and Napoli each hit one World Series home run. Lifetime (regular season and post season) I have seen Napoli out-homer Uribe 35-1. The Angels trading Napoli to Toronto and four days later seeing him move on to Texas could have been worse. Napoli could have wound up with the Dodgers. Instead Frank McCourt and company traded for Juan Uribe.

by Yetijuice on Oct 27, 2011 1:59 AM PDT reply actions  

Comments For This Post Are Closed


User Tools

Halos Heaven is the Number #1 Angels Fan Blog according to QUANTCAST. Our Angels Fan Site is YOUR Angels Fan Community!

FanPosts

Community blog posts and discussion.

Recommended FanPosts

Morales-mainx-large_small
Albert Pujols – A Man of Faith
Small
Summation of the Angels 2012 season so far
Sinatra2_small
Sign the petition to end "Buttercup"

Recent FanPosts

Kendry_morales_small
The Most Frightening Word in Baseball: "Rebuilding"
Avatar_small
By The Numbers: MLB Starting Pitchers
Small
Angel Games Boring?
Angelmike_small
Terry Smith. You make the call.
Nick_small
Are the Angels the anti-Rangers?
Wrigley_field_small
A Serious top 5 of why Pujols is below the Mathis line.
Angelmike_small
The Top Ten Reasons Albert Pujols is hitting below 200

+ New FanPost All FanPosts >

Yahoo_full_count

Leaders of the Free World

4323_1105939621665_1622022962_290465_5300842_n_small Rev Halofan

Mostinterstingman_small cupie

Tn96_small WiHaloFan

Whammy10_small blast21dave

Fearless Crew

N1222371_8709_small scottnak

Halos2_small Stirrups

Anarangels_small Mayheminthehood

Cant-tell-if-trolling-or-just-very-stupid_small linkbruin

Avatar_small rghan

Alternate-club-logo-no-highlight1_small RexTookMyStash

Celebrity Chefs

306996053509_0_0_small PhiSlamma

Angelsbathroom_small mattwelch

Angels_ywc_album_small yeswecan

34_adenhart_small RallyMonkey5

Userpic-105-100x100_small Suboptimal

The_prior_art_cover_small Turks Teeth