Improving On 86 Wins Through Pitching
The Angels won 86 games in 2011. That win total allowed them to stay home during the playoffs and do some housekeeping in the front office. Had they won 98 games, the team would have made the playoffs and been considered one of the best in baseball. An extra two wins a month and the Angels are back on top.
While fans will point to the underperforming offense, roster and/or financial restraints might make it more likely the Angels try to pick up those wins via pitching. After all, DiPoto recently revamped Arizona's pitching staff and was a pitcher in his MLB career.
As a staff, the Angels were incredibly top heavy in 2011. The studs of the group were Jered Weaver, Dan Haren, and Scott Downs. All had ERA+ of 120 or above and they were the strength of the team.
The two up and down performers were Ervin Santana and Hisanori Takahashi. Both guys went through rough spells and both had time during the season in which the pitched well. The two ended up with nearly identical ERA+'s (112,111) and WHIP's (1.220, 1.221). Overall, the end numbers look good, not great, but the progress Santana made in the second half was very encouraging.
In the small sample size department, Bobby Cassevah seemed to come on strongly at the end of the year. Not to go Lyle on you, but I could see that he was gaining confidence along with some command as the season rolled on.
From here, it is a sharp decline which leads directly to Fernando Rodney and the AL leader in blown saves, Jordan Walden. In a sad situation, Rodney might not have been the worst pitcher on the 2011 roster; Horacio Ramirez gives him some really good competiton. Rich Thompson just never seems able to establish himself, and the FRod2 experiment has yet to get off the ground.
So, due to roster and/or financial restraints possibly limiting major moves for everyday players, I believe DiPoto will follow a path similar to the one taken in Arizona this past year and revamp the pitching staff. Here are some names and how they might help the Angels of 2012.
The In-House Options
Tyler Chatwood walked 71 batters in 142 innings, Jerome Williams fought his way from independent ball to the bigs, and Trevor Bell always seems to be in Sosh's doghouse. Garret Richards has a tremendous fastball, but could use some help with his secondary pitches. My best bet here is that Chatwood and Richards head to Salt Lake while Williams and Bell have an audition for the #5 spot in the rotation with the loser getting Bell's familiar role.
The Beauty Pageant:
Heath Bell -- a stud closer who could teach Walden (5 years of club control) the ropes for a couple of years.
C.J. Wilson -- fills out a starting rotation that would be the best in the AL. Bonus: we get him from Texas.
Ryan Madson -- if you can close in Philly, you can close anywhere. My #1 choice.
More Realistic:
David Aardsma -- well known name with closing experience and the proverbial "power arm."
Joe Saunders -- his stuff plays well here and he is a fan favorite.
Hiroki Kuroda -- solid vet who prefers SoCal, good fly ball pitcher.
Hong-Chih Kuo -- a non-tender candidate with closing experience.
Octavio Dotel -- he's pitched for everybody else in MLB. Why not the Halos?
The liklihood of the Angels looking outside the organization for at least one starting pitcher and one bullpen arm seems high. While it is difficult to project WAR and contributions from bullpen arms from year to year, it is safe to assume that the addition of an arm or two, plus the subtractions of Rodney and crew could help the Angels win that extra game or two per month.
Obviously, there are many more names available than I listed. What are you thoughts? Who do you think would help?
This Fan-Post is authored by an independent fan. Tell us what you think and how you feel.
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Kuroda, Buehrle, Saunders, Harang
In that order for starting pitching.
Curious to see how our new GM’s career as a reliever will mold his approach towards acquiring them. He just watched Arizona rebuild a bullpen in one offseason without any marquee names so I’d hope he doesn’t follow in Tony’s footsteps of assuming that if they cost $5 million a year, they MUST be good
RIP Nick Adenhart
Good point
I assumed he’s the most expensive per year of any of those listed and also that he probably wouldn’t necessarily be dying to switch leagues late in his career.
RIP Nick Adenhart
by ihearhowie2.0 on Nov 1, 2011 2:10 PM PDT up reply actions
Oswalt is going to end up in Texas
From Jeff Mathis' TOPPS card: "Jeff is a defensive catcher, but he can rake it when it counts." Jeff has a lifetime .199 MLB batting average
yeppers
My response to your letter of February 19, 1976, is - kiss my ass.
Sincerely,
Bill Baxley, Attorney General
by sheisalovelyladyandmyapologiestoher on Nov 1, 2011 6:50 PM PDT up reply actions
I blame mathis
not the starting pitching
I take it you don't have the DOV Secret Decoder Ring
You need to drink more ovaltine
-Quad Fin Rider
when in doubt...
fuck, whenever blame mathis
by Halos in DE on Nov 1, 2011 10:56 AM PDT up reply actions 1 recs
I Hate to Nitpick...
Aw, who am I kidding? One doesn’t start a post with “I hate to nitpick, but…” unless one intends to nitpick.
I would submit that Santana’s and Takahashi’s seasons were not at all alike. Yes, they put up some similar numbers…but Santana was a starting pitcher. A reliever with an ERA+ of 111 and WHIP of 1.22 just isn’t cutting it. It’s not an apples-to-apples comparison.
Now, as for the potential signees…
Heath Bell: not leaving San Diego. He’ll either accept arbitration or sign an extension there.
Wilson: will get a lot more money than he’s worth. Whatever team signs him will wind up wishing it had signed Kuroda, Buehrle, Oswalt, Harang or Saunders (if non-tendered) instead. Or, dare I say it, Yu Darvish.
Aardsma: hasn’t pitched since 2010, won’t pitch for the first part of 2012 (Tommy John surgery). Pass.
Kuo: Steve Blass disease; also just had his 5th elbow operation. Pass.
The Angels definitely need at least one starting pitcher, and that’s assuming nobody gets traded. If they deal Santana, as some have suggested, they’ll need two. I say with extreme confidence that the team will not go to spring training expecting to fill out 3/5 of its starting rotation with some combination of Chatwood, Richards, Williams and Bell.
The Angels could do a lot worse than add Dotel as a middle reliever; however, it’s my understanding that he never signs with contending teams, just gets traded to them at the deadline. He’d need to sign with, say, the Orioles or Nationals, then get traded here.
I threw a bunch of stuff against the wall to see how it would stick then invited discussion
I’d be disappointed if somebody here didn’t nitpick me.
Not Disparaging
It was a good and thoughtful effort, sure to spark discussion (indeed, that’s why I bothered to comment).
Trading Santana would be a bad idea
not only would we need to fill two holes in the rotation, but his history shows us that every other year, he has an outstanding season. Guess what is coming up.
pretty sure
he just had a pretty damn good season
"id take 5th Dimention Wormhole Rivera over Wells any day of the week"
-clover_black
by the king of CERA on Nov 2, 2011 1:19 AM PDT up reply actions
yes he did
and next year he will be like that from start to finish if his history holds up.
I wonder if the pitching-loaded Braves could match up as a trade partner
Atlanta just dealt Lowe to make some room in their incredibly deep rotation. Hanson & Beachy are the 1-2 punch which leaves Jurrjens, Minor, Vizcaino, Delgado, and Teheran battling for the final 3 spots.
I know Alex Gonzalez is a free agent to-be and admittedly I don’t know much about SS depth in Atlanta’s system. Perhaps they have someone ready to step into the role. If not, Aybar would be a pretty tasty option for them as they are unlikely to go out and spend big cash on a Reyes or even a Rollins.
I don’t necessarily want to trade Aybar, but both him and Kendrick are in walk years and if you look at next year’s free agent class they are likely going to be the top guy at their respective positions. I know there is hope Segura will be ready by 2013 but he can’t play both positions and there doesn’t appear to be anyone else in our system that will be ready to step in by then.
Perhaps instead of signing a #4 starter this year, we trade Aybar for a young and controllable SP from Atlanta and use the money we were going to spend on a starter to lock up Howie long term.
Of course this would leave a void at SS for 2012 which would mean signing a veteran to a 1-year deal to split time with Maicer. (Furcal?)
This is just a knee-jerk post. I may be overlooking something significant, but it seems like one possibility.
I think this could work
especially if Dipoto can also get the Diamondbacks to sell low on Stephen Drew
by WhatShouldIThrowToday? on Nov 1, 2011 11:40 AM PDT up reply actions
I really dislike Stephen Drew.
That would be a poor scenario for me as a fan. Do you really want to put the Drew family mojo in the Halos clubhouse?
"I have one word for you...Be careful."
-Jose Guillen
sorry
I really have this weird thing about thinking that we need left handed batters…
by WhatShouldIThrowToday? on Nov 1, 2011 12:31 PM PDT up reply actions
I agree. He's a good player, don't get me wrong.
I don’t like Fielder either, but if either was on the Angels’ roster, I would grow to like them.
That was just a personal opinion of mine, don’t see his name often on this blog.
"I have one word for you...Be careful."
-Jose Guillen
Madson, Bell, Aardsma and Kuroda are all interesting
CJ is going to be too expensive now that CC is off the market. I’m betting the Nationals pull another Werth contract on him.
For starters, I’m not too enticed by most of the other options. I’ve never really been a big fan of Oswalt. Saunders and Harang aren’t more than average and can be downright terrible for significant stretches. Dipoto should look at the import options this year with Darvish, Iwakuma and maybe Wada (in that order). There might be some interesting relief options there too.
Scioscialist Party of America - Redistributing your defense since 2000.
We need to focus on hitting
The Angels were 10th in runs scored (and closer to 12th than 9th). They were 2nd in runs allowed (1st in ERA). Adding Kuroda or Saunders won’t help us win the well-pitched Haren, Weaver or Santana games or give Walden more than a 1-run cushion in the 9th.
I’m OK with taking a cheap chance on someone (1-year deal only) to compete for the 4th or 5th slot, but I’m also OK with letting Richards, Williams, Chatwood and Bell fill out the rotation. I hate spending a ton of money on relievers. It works out poorly so often (Remember Rodney, Fuentes, Speier) that I don’t think it’s worth it.
A run saved is a run earned
It’s obvious pitching is our strength and hitting is our weakness but saving an extra 20 runs (arbitrary number) and scoring an extra 20 runs is a wash.
We also can't lead the AL in lost opportunities
It’s safe to say the bullpen and back end of the rotation cost the team a game or two per month. These are the most obvious (and probably cost effective) holes to fill.
I imagine there will be many discussions about adding offense. Let’s just not forget that our underperforming offense did give the bullpen plenty of leads they blew.
I really think the solution has to be a trade
Given the finances, we can’t sign an impact hitter and a starting pitcher and a relief pitcher. Yet we need an impact bat, another reliable starter, and at least one or two more reliable arms in the bullpen. This is Jerry’s dilemma. The team could go out and spend the $20+ million that is available on a starter and a closer, but I would view that as unwise given the team’s more pressing need for offense.
The only way to make this work, in my view, is to sign the impact hitter and to trade one or more players for the pitching help that we need. I can only speculate as to what those trade possibilities might be. Conceptually, I like the idea of trading Wells for a starter who has an albatross contract (Lackey or Zito), but I would not be surprised if we did not have a buyer for either deal. We also could move Abreu, if there is a suitable match. Or, who knows? I would think that, in the right deal, Kendrick, Aybar, Callaspo, Izturis, Trumbo, or Santana could be moved. But that would have to be one great deal for us because all of those guys, with the possible exception of Santana, are really cheap or at least relatively cheap.
I agree with what you have
but at the same time, why not sign an impact pitcher and trade Santana for an impact hitter?
I think it’s a weak market for pitchers and hitters.
by lightupthehalo29 on Nov 1, 2011 5:11 PM PDT up reply actions
I agree
The only realistic signings we can make are for pitchers. I’m guessing we’ll get a starter, then try to package some guys for a 3rd baseman or swap somebody for relievers.
Scioscialist Party of America - Redistributing your defense since 2000.
by Commander_Nate on Nov 2, 2011 10:00 AM PDT up reply actions
Improving the offense may not be so easy.
Unless you are making a run at Reyes, Fielder or Pujos, we really won’t see much of an offensive improvement via FA. Trade is the most likely scenario and even then, we would be weakening a position of strength to fill a weakness.
I would not be surprise if we got a veteran closer to mentor Walden (like we did with KRod and Percy) sign a pitcher to eat up Pinero’s spot and call it a wrap. We are in a screwed up position where we may have to sit out of the playoffs for another year while JDP tries to figure out how to clear out this mess.
No hitting (outside of Fielder/Pujols) exists
Unless Dipoto has a crazy trade in store, we have very few options.
"Its like when i’m right…i’m right… and when i’m wrong…i could have been right..so i’m still right cause i could have been wrong"-Chevy Clarke's Twitter
If Arte gives Dipoto the oppurtunity...
I think Yu Darvish would be a terrific sign. He has a larger build than most of his peers, so he doesn’t scare me like most other pitchers from Asia. He definitely appears more legitimate and the stats back him up.
go long with extenze...i do
Seems like a lot of $ to spend on a number 4 starter
We need depth more than ace-like impact at this point in a #4 starter. I’m sure Darvish could be great but that’s a pretty big risk to possibly clog up our payroll on a spot we can fill for a tenth of the cost.
Pitching needs depth. Offense needs impact. Save the $ for hitting
RIP Nick Adenhart
by ihearhowie2.0 on Nov 1, 2011 3:43 PM PDT up reply actions
If he is all that they say he is
he would bump Santana down to the #4 spot, which would make him one hell of a #4.
Why settle for #4 production when you might be able to get something better?
Our rotation does need depth, but I’d rather it be depth that can compete and not simply fill space. If Santana has an off year or Weaver goes down, suddenly relying on guys like Harang to pick up the slack doesn’t seem like the best idea.
Also keep in mind that even if Darvish’s cost is as high as some have predicted (which there is reason to doubt), he will still cost much less than Fielder, Pujols and possibly Wilson as well.
Scioscialist Party of America - Redistributing your defense since 2000.
by Commander_Nate on Nov 1, 2011 4:50 PM PDT up reply actions
Darvish will probably cost significantly more than Wilson if you factor in posting fees
Likely 30-40M in posting, then 60-70 in his contract.
I still think the Japanese media market is something Arte should explore though. This could have the same benefit as Matsui in bringing in extra $$$.
by lightupthehalo29 on Nov 1, 2011 5:10 PM PDT up reply actions
Saying he will cost less than Fielder is supposed to make me feel better?
Buerhle and Kuroda and Oswalt come at literally 1/5 of the cost OR LESS of this guy and have PROVEN they can handle this league. Why gamble when we just fired a GM for throwing our owner’s money away on leaps of faith?
We have somewhere around $15-18 million to spend this offseason barring a trade of hunter or abreu or some other big contract. With so many areas to fix, I don’t see in any way how blowing it on the one position we’re strong at (SP) makes any sense.
And don’t be so sure he’s that much cheaper than WIlson, if he is at all. Daisuke was $100 million.
RIP Nick Adenhart
by ihearhowie2.0 on Nov 2, 2011 7:26 AM PDT up reply actions
Feel better? Maybe not...but it's a bit more realistic financially and in terms of roster space
Matsuzaka’s deal is seen as a significant overpay by virtually everyone in baseball. There have been reports that the Red Sox may have gone over the second-highest bid by as much as $15 million. I would think front offices around the league have learned not to go so crazy with posting fees by now. Last winter, Iwakuma’s fee was only $19.1 million and he’s considered one of the better pitchers in Japan not named Darvish. Obviously, Darvish will net a higher fee than that, but $50-60 million like some have said? I don’t see why the bidding would get that high again unless somebody is really desperate or is trying to block a rival from getting him with no real inention of signing him themselves.
Whoever does win the bidding will have all the leverage in the world. As you say, he’s never pitched in the Majors, so paying him $15-20 million a year is out of the question. Matsuzaka started out at $6 million per year and ramped up to $10 millon over the life of his contract. You can probably start Darvish at around $9-10 million and move him up a bit over 4-5 years. You can also add some options and incentives in order to hedge your bet a bit and encourage him to live up to the hype. Other than the first year when the posting fee is paid (which an owner may dip into his own money to pay for all we know), he probably wouldn’t break the bank. If he doesn’t like the deal, he goes back to Japan.
All the other FA options we’ve been discussing are either much older, or much more expensive. Darvish hasn’t had any significant injuries, has put up numbers not seen in decades, has electric stuff, and has the body type to continue this success. Fielder would cost twice as much per season over a longer period of time and there’s no easy place to put him, especially if Morales comes back healthy. Darvish could slide right in behind Santana with Williams taking the 5th spot, while Chatwood and Richards spend much-needed time in AAA.
In terms of risk, finances and room, going after Darvish actually makes pretty good sense, and the inital step would be over in a week’s time.
Scioscialist Party of America - Redistributing your defense since 2000.
by Commander_Nate on Nov 2, 2011 9:40 AM PDT up reply actions 1 recs
Does your post come with cliff notes?
From what I could skim, I didn’t see anything that convinced me this guy is worth signing.
The point of ramping up scouting internationally is to find hidden gems and value.
Arte wouldn’t go as high as $80M for Adrian Beltre, who plays a position extremely scarce in available talent and one we’re desperate for. You think he’s going to throw MORE at a starting pitcher who could end up tanking miserably?
RIP Nick Adenhart
by ihearhowie2.0 on Nov 2, 2011 10:10 AM PDT up reply actions
Forgot to point out the Red Sox overpay comment
holds no weight here. You don’t think the Yankees, Nationals, Cubs, Mariners, Rangers and others (all who are desperate for SP) won’t be involved driving his price up? You’re crazy man!
I don’t doubt we will make an offer for the posting fee just to see, but I have no reason to think it will be significant to the point of winning when we aren’t desperate like the aforementioned.
RIP Nick Adenhart
by ihearhowie2.0 on Nov 2, 2011 10:13 AM PDT up reply actions
It holds plenty of weight
Because it is was in response to your comment about Matsuzaka’s overall cost, half of which was an inflated posting fee. This would be the same exact kind of transaction. There’s no “driving his price up” because it’s a sealed process that only lasts 4 days. I expect the amount to be fairly high, but why would anyone repeat Boston’s mistake?
Scioscialist Party of America - Redistributing your defense since 2000.
by Commander_Nate on Nov 2, 2011 11:29 AM PDT up reply actions
And yet he threw $86 million at a position we were not desperate for
Along with giving up around $25 million more worth of performance in Mike Napoli and a serviceable bench/platoon player in Rivera. All of this for a guy who had tanked many times and was likely to do so again in the future.
After Santana, I’d argue we are kind of desperate for pitching. SP is the most important position in the game. Nobody on our current roster gives me any sort of confidence that they will perform over the duration of the next season in the 4/5 spots. You need a different SP every day, while you can pretty much run the same 5 guys out there at 1B/DH/OF. We already have 7-8 guys for those spots. Where do we fit another person from the FA market (after finding $150+ million to get them)?
Darvish has been compared to Strasburg by scouts and has excelled consistently at a higher level than Strasburg ever did before being drafted. All indications are he would do fairly well here.
Scioscialist Party of America - Redistributing your defense since 2000.
by Commander_Nate on Nov 2, 2011 11:16 AM PDT up reply actions
Everyone's looking for the next Nomo
Who also happened to be the first, and so far, the only Nomo.
Yawn. Wake me up when a pitcher comes over from the NPB and actually succeeds at something greater than middle relief. Matsuzaka’s numbers were just as good as Darvish’s, and he’s been a whole lot of mediocre for a whole lot of money. Even if Darvish is the “Japanese Strasburg,” as a prospect he’s five years older and he’s going to cost ten times as much, just to get a look at him in a big-league uniform.
I’d think of him as a great AAA talent. Some of them are going to be stars. But is there any pitcher in AAA right now you’d be willing to bet $100 million on, right this second? That’s just an irresponsible wager.
by Suboptimal on Nov 2, 2011 12:34 PM PDT up reply actions 1 recs
He's not Daisuke Matsuzaka
As this article from Fangraphs details. His career ERA is almost a full run lower and his K/9 is slightly higher, for starters. Other than being right-handed and starting their careers in NPB, they differ quite a bit.
Don’t worry, if he’s posted this winter, I will have make a detailed fanpost about signing him that will address all of your concerns.
Scioscialist Party of America - Redistributing your defense since 2000.
by Commander_Nate on Nov 2, 2011 1:51 PM PDT up reply actions
Even if you credit him for surpassing Matsuzaka
I don’t know how you can really argue with this, though. You can’t sink nine figures into a player who’s never put on a major-league uniform anywhere other than the NPB posting system. If you’re smart, that’s just not the table you choose at the casino, no matter how big the payout looks at first.
Over the last decade, Hiroki Kuroda is the Japanese pitcher that I admire the most. I’d much rather take a reasonable gamble on him than pay the hype tax on Darvish. Of all the $100+ million pitching contracts that are far enough along to judge, there hasn’t been one to work out yet, for a Japanese player or otherwise.
"Of all the $100+ million pitching contracts that are far enough along to judge, there hasn’t been one to work out yet"
Former Cy Young Award Winner/All-Star Barry Zito’s World Series Championship Ring says “hi.”
Vernon Wells 2011 Stats (.218/.248/.412) and 2010 road stats (.224/.299/.400). The front office shouldn't have been surprised.
I agree on not overpaying
But we should be involved in the bidding. There’s no harm in walking away if you win and can’t come to terms on a contract.
Scioscialist Party of America - Redistributing your defense since 2000.
by Commander_Nate on Nov 2, 2011 2:50 PM PDT up reply actions
I dunno... If he throws a Shuuto I'm in...
No but seriously… Hiroki has proven he can pitch in the bigs and likely wouldn’t require more than say two years, 20 mill… He’s prob my favorite pitcher on the market and would come will less investment than E-Jax or prob even Roy O.
E-Jax?
Ugh. Aside from the fact that I hate first-name-initial, abbreviated last-name nicknames in general…
That’s just disgusting.
I'd take Kuroda too if it comes to that
But is he even available? Word is he either wants stay with the Dodgers or go back to Japan. If they get a new owner there in the next several weeks, then he’ll probably get the offer he’s looking for.
Scioscialist Party of America - Redistributing your defense since 2000.
by Commander_Nate on Nov 2, 2011 3:40 PM PDT up reply actions
I've heard similiar
But you gotta think if there is another team he’d be willing to sign with it’s be us given the location.
i absolutely agree
if we’re going to spend money on a FA then I think it would be best spent on Darvish.
Aside from their common heritage, I don’t see how Darvish and Matsuzaka are comparable. Darvish’s NPB career has been more impressive than Matsuzaka’s thus far and scouts seem much more impressed with his stuff and physicallity than Matsuzaka’s when he was coming out.
go long with extenze...i do
by angelsownredsux on Nov 2, 2011 1:33 PM PDT up reply actions
And Daisuke has not even been average in the MLB
So better than Daisuke still isn’t saying much. Significantly better than Daisuke is still probably worse that Ervin.
Suboptimal points out all the ominous truths about japanese pitchers above. Nobody is saying they can’t succeed or that Darvish can’t be a good MLB pitcher…we’re saying there is a whooooooooooole lot more evidence showing these guys’ stats dont translate over here and $80-100 million is a shit ton of money to gamble when starting pitching isn’t exactly what kept us out of the postseason.
RIP Nick Adenhart
by ihearhowie2.0 on Nov 2, 2011 3:02 PM PDT up reply actions
I don't see any pitchers here who are going to improve much on 86 wins
At least not at a price the Angels can afford to pay.
Depends on what you mean by "help"
The Angels just aren’t in a good position to tool up for a run at a 95-win division title. When it comes to the win column, next year is more likely to be a move sideways than a move forward. Instead DiPoto should probably be thinking about angle instead of altitude—how to best position the team core to take advantage of extra ballast once the dead weight starts to fall off at the end of the season.
In other words, three, four, or five year deals for middling starters like Wilson, Jackson, and Buehrle are exactly what the team needs to avoid. They might add a little value in 2012—with fairly marginal gain overall—but their presence is going to hurt in 2013, 2014, and beyond. That’s when DiPoto will hope to start putting his own players into place. He’s not going to want to do a hasty patch job on Reagins’ monstrosity just to see it clash with his new coat of paint.
So I think a pitcher who would best “help” the Angels would be someone like Saunders, or Chris Capuano, or Paul Maholm. Someone who will just come in, throw some innings, and leave. Someone who will take the workload off of developing arms like Chatwood and Richards while still leaving room for them to get some quality playing time. It’s cool if they win some games too, but that’d just be gravy—Reagins already sold 2012 down the river back in January. I think the highlights next year will come from Trout, Conger, and Richards, not from the standings.
You can’t make more of mediocrity by giving it a huge paycheck. That’s the story of the last two years. But it can be useful when it has a long-term purpose. Hopefully DiPoto is smart enough to realize that, and everyone else is smart enough to stay the hell out of his way.
by Suboptimal on Nov 1, 2011 5:41 PM PDT up reply actions 2 recs
You beat me to it
Capuano, Maholm,or Harang (pick two) would probably cost the Angels $7MM-$9MM…total. All three had solid years, and each could probably be had with a 1+1 type of contract.
I’m always supportive of bringing in cheap arms for bullpen help. Former starters, journeymen minor leaguers, guys coming off injuries – whatever.
Fangraphs brought up the idea of Rich Harden as a setup man or 2 inning reliever. Oakland only paid him $1.5MM this past year, so he would be cheap. Joel Zumaya is healthy (skipping surgery and instead rehabbing all year) and will be pitching in the instructional league and winter ball. He, too, could be a cheap low-risk high-reward gamble.
And in the spirit of Lou Pote, Brendan Donnelly, and Ben Weber, there are always veteran minor leaguers who just need luck and an opportunity.
The point is, if DiPoto is creative, he can rustle up some arms without breaking the bank, both in the rotation and the bullpen.
"There's nothing that cleanses your soul like getting the hell kicked out of you." - Woody Hayes
by johnnyangel101 on Nov 1, 2011 10:40 PM PDT up reply actions
We aren't far away.
I think 95 wins should be the goal.
Getting there will hinge on several factors:
-Give Trout a starting job. Make Vernon earn a spot in the lineup. This would require Dipoto trading away one of our outfielders to make room, most likely Abreu.
-Get Kendrys back with above average production. If we could get 20 HR and 80 RBIs out of him, that would be huge. Obviously this one is a bit of a stretch.
-Give Conger the starting job. Even if he struggles, it can’t possibly be worse than the production we got from Mathis in 2011. He has the ceiling of a 20 homer catcher. Yes, he is inexperienced behind the plate, but we need more offensive production from the catching position, even at the cost of slightly below league average defense.
-Garrett Richards and/or Tyler Chatwood need to pitch to their capability.
If we can do even 3 of these 4 things, I’ll be damned if we don’t win 90 wins next season, regardless of potential free agents or trades.
by moralesforpresident on Nov 2, 2011 12:02 AM PDT up reply actions
Couldn't agree more
I know Arte says we should make it every year, but the reality of long term contracts and bloated deals means there will be years we simply can’t get enough production out of every player to really dominate.
I’m 100% of the belief that trying to force it on this 2012 roster by adding more desperate money and hollow moves just continues to screw up the future where we really have a shot at being something special.
Yes, we should absolutely make moves to improve the team now but they HAVE to look towards 2013 when we can then set ourselves up for the next 5-6 years of legitimate WS contention.
Vernon wells was a great example of shortsighted, “BUT I WANT IT NOWWWWW” thinking and hopefully Moreno has learned that a little restraint on this old team can yield some amazing fruit for a long time after.
RIP Nick Adenhart
by ihearhowie2.0 on Nov 2, 2011 7:33 AM PDT up reply actions
Wells is an example of a complete lack of analytical ability and critical thinking
The “BUT I WANT IT NOWWWWWW” option would have been trading Napoli and/or Rivera for Beltran or something similar.
Scioscialist Party of America - Redistributing your defense since 2000.
by Commander_Nate on Nov 2, 2011 9:58 AM PDT up reply actions
It doesn't matter what it was or wasn't from an analytical standpoint
Wells was an ill-advised move made out of desperation to make the team better ASAP because Arte was emotional and needed something in that offseason.
Getting something for 2011 trumped making a smart decision that would help the team long-term. We agree here. My point is that the team needs to avoid making a rash decision aimed at making the Angels better on paper for 2012 that could eliminate financial flexibility, block a prospect etc. when the team will be constructed to legitimately chase a championship in the very near future.
RIP Nick Adenhart
by ihearhowie2.0 on Nov 2, 2011 10:24 AM PDT up reply actions
In other words
Arte should have recognized after we lost out on Beltre and Crawford that Abreu and Hunter were trending downward, Rodney was not a world series closer, Morales was a huge question mark…and simply made conservative, smart moves for 2011 to keep the money open for a slam-dunk trade or free agent this year.
Instead, the possibility of being better in 2011 was more important and he signed off on a terrible deal that will now haunt us for 3 more years. We can’t do that again.
RIP Nick Adenhart
by ihearhowie2.0 on Nov 2, 2011 10:28 AM PDT up reply actions
In fairness, Reagins probably did tell him that but the message was all garbled from the Del Macho Combo Burrito Con Queso he was eating at the time.
Vernon Wells 2011 Stats (.218/.248/.412) and 2010 road stats (.224/.299/.400). The front office shouldn't have been surprised.
Very true.
I’m surprised this hasn’t been leaked to the LA Times
RIP Nick Adenhart
by ihearhowie2.0 on Nov 2, 2011 2:58 PM PDT up reply actions
I'm usually well ahead of the Times in getting stuff like this out there.
Vernon Wells 2011 Stats (.218/.248/.412) and 2010 road stats (.224/.299/.400). The front office shouldn't have been surprised.
Do you have a blog, RSS feed or Twitter I can follow?
Scioscialist Party of America - Redistributing your defense since 2000.
by Commander_Nate on Nov 2, 2011 3:32 PM PDT up reply actions
Link
I post these sort of gems here.
Vernon Wells 2011 Stats (.218/.248/.412) and 2010 road stats (.224/.299/.400). The front office shouldn't have been surprised.
#Subscribed
Scioscialist Party of America - Redistributing your defense since 2000.
by Commander_Nate on Nov 2, 2011 3:42 PM PDT up reply actions
I like Frasor (don't know as much about Cain)
but CWS already has Rios, Quentin, Lillibridge/DeAza, and Dunn to deal with… Not really a fit for Abreu there.
White Sox
Abreu is better than Rios and Lillibridge which would ultimately result in releasing one of them (Rios is owed too much) and Dunn is DH. So their outfield could be Rios, Quentin, Abreu, DeAza. This would probably cost them in defense though.
Can we trade him for a bucket of balls?
by moralesforpresident on Nov 2, 2011 12:04 AM PDT up reply actions
Any team dumb enough to want to put Abreu in the OF could probably be talked into taking Wells instead.
Vernon Wells 2011 Stats (.218/.248/.412) and 2010 road stats (.224/.299/.400). The front office shouldn't have been surprised.
Well it would just be interesting to see what happens in the offseason.
Hopefully they are solid moves that can propel us back to the playoffs. Cuz I don’t think we want to wait another year to not make the playoffs.
The 2011 Angels, the biggest cocktease ever.
by Angelsrthebest101 on Nov 1, 2011 10:36 PM PDT reply actions
Joe Saunders
Is an NL only pitcher. He had a WHIP of at least 1.43 in his last 2.5 years with the Halos, failed to have a K/9 above 5 and walked at least 2.8 bb/9 in this time period.
I honestly don’t see how he would be an upgrade over Jerome Williams, Chatwood and Richards. If we could get him for a 1 year/$5 million deal he would be nice to have as a #5 — just don’t pay or expect anything more.
I was wondering the same thing
At which point, might as well go with a three pitcher race for the last two spots.
This is a critical year for talent evaluation
The team has some tough choices to make following this off-season. It will either be a time to blow everything up OR re-up with guys hitting FA. With that in mind my recipe for this off-season is modest and focuses on staying flexible.
Sign one potential innings eater. Needs to be a 1/$5m type starter. I’d look at Pineiro again as an option (or someone like him). What we need is 150 to 175 innings of potential production. HOPEFULLY Richards, Chatwood, Williams, Bell all step up and can cover the 4/5 spots in the rotation. A veteran starter though would provide some insurance if that isn’t the case. Derek Lowe would have been perfect.
Bring in one older relief pitcher (preferably an ex-closer). My concern with Walden isn’t around his stuff. He’s had literally no one to mentor him. Can you imagine taking tips from Fraudney on how to close out games? I think having a confidant that could really work with him would be huge. We don’t need to spend top shelf money for Bell or Madson. We want Walden to close for us – he just needs a little help.
Trade Abreu (if Kendry can make any progress towards a comeback). Kick in $5m and don’t require anything back. That’s a fair move for both sides. We get a little rainy day fund but more importantly we clear a roster spot and reduce our logjam at 1B/DH/OF.
Like I said, not sexy moves but we aren’t making any huge commitments. The team could easily improve on an 86 win season with a moderately healthy Morales, an improved Wells, and some additional depth in the rotation/bullpen. I’d put the ceiling on my proposed team at 90 wins with a floor of 80 wins.
by bjsguess on Nov 2, 2011 8:32 AM PDT reply actions 1 recs
I don't buy the mentorship theory with Walden
Walden’s problem is not the lack of a mentor — it’s the lack of control. He needs to throw strikes. Rodney can be blamed for his own failure to throw strikes; he can’t, however, be blamed for Walden’s failure to do that. The bullpen remains a problem. I’m not saying that we need to spend big money on a closer. I am saying, however, that we need another reliable arm or two in the bullpen to pitch — not to be buddies with Walden. I agree with the sentiment that we should try to resolve this issue by spending as little as possible.
by Brody on Nov 2, 2011 9:01 AM PDT up reply actions 1 recs
Pinero
I don’t think it’s such a terrible idea, he pitched well through the whole first half and seemed to be getting it together again toward the end of the season (especially when conger was catching) Would Saunders really be that much better?
Also, I am cautiously optimistic that williams is legit, although I don’t know how he will hold up health-wise over a whole season
"id take 5th Dimention Wormhole Rivera over Wells any day of the week"
-clover_black
by the king of CERA on Nov 2, 2011 10:55 AM PDT up reply actions
The guy we need mentoring Walden is Percival
Ties to the area and the angels, hard throwing right hander with some control issues, etc… The guy would be a great mentor for walden
Percival should be brought in to tell walden to chill out a little, throw a little softer to have more control and then blow it by them when it is appropriate.
by Balls and Strikes on Nov 7, 2011 3:55 PM PST up reply actions
I agree we build through pitching
Pujols is staying put and Fielder, as much as it seems we need him here, makes little sense considering our payroll constraints and our depth at 1B/DH. Save the superstar fund for a player who excels in more than one facet of the game.
Personally, I would kick the tires on Wilson. I don’t think he’s going to make the kind of scratch many of you fear, especially after he shit the bed on baseball’s biggest stage. His peripheral stats improved across the board in his second year as a starter, he is only 30 years old and he’s a lefty, something we could use in this rotation. Add in the mild climate and good defense the Angels typically field, I could see C.J. being a productive starter for us for the next 3-4 years. Did I mention he’s a So Cal boy? A five year, $75 million commitment could get it done and it would be the only major move made this offseason.
I have to believe DiPoto is too smart to waste money on relievers and we have plenty of in-house options to fill out the pen. If they were to grab C.J. (or one of the lesser free agent starters) to fill out the top four spots and someone like Williams or Richards gets the five spot, our bullpen will look something like this:
Walden
Downs
Takahashi
Cassevah
Thompson
Bell
Also factor in Jepsen/Kohn/mystery minor leaguer, depending on if they go with a 6 or 7 man pen. Everyone points to Walden’s blown saves. Keep in mind this was his rookie campaign. He should only get better. Besides that, with relievers being so notoriously volatile, isn’t it best we see what we have first, then trade for what we need when and if the time comes? How do we know this isn’t the year Thompson or Jepsen suddenly put it all together? And don’t we still have that 7 foot Dutch giant somewhere?
I would love to see him somehow get rid of Wells. I’m sure DiPoto sees Wells sucking up a roster spot, Trout seemingly ready to go, Torii still productive, Bourjos a gold glove waiting to happen and Abreu being a good soilder not bothering anyone on the bench. Wells is the problem and he likely does not fit the vision that Jerry has for this team. If he can charm his way towards a trade (Brian Sabean still runs the Giants, right?) the log jam in the outfield ends, Abreu can play just a couple times a week against righties while there would still be plenty of ab’s to go around for Morales and Trumbo.
In summary, if he can sign a decent starting pitcher and somehow dump Wells (I really would take Zito straight up!) then that would be all he’d need to do in his first offseason to improve the team without handicapping it going forward. This is assuming cutting Mathis is a foregone conclusion.
Wells for Zito is our best hope
Like Wells, Zito was below replacement level last season, and like Wells he has a horrendous contract. The difference, however, is that Wells is signed through 2014, and Zito is signed through 2013 (with an option for 2014 that will not vest). As a result, Wells is owed $17 million more than Zito is owed. Is a deal conceivable? Yes. The Giants are losing Beltran, and I doubt that Cody Ross, Andres Torres, and Aaron Rowand are obstacles to a trade. So I cannot say that it is impossible. At the same time, I would have to think that San Francisco would ask us to at least split the difference with them in cost.
This move really would be ideal for us. Trout would become a starter. We would not have to sign another starter at additional cost, thus freeing up payroll space to acquire a hitter. It would give us a potentially serviceable left-handed starter. And if Zito busts, we are no worse off and simply cut him.
The Giants outfield is actually less crowded than that.
Rowand was already released and Ross is a FA. The Giants also seem to be considering replacing Torres in CF.
And we know Sabean loves him some declining veterans. Although he would also be losing a veteran in the process….
You could be on to something....
Lincecum, Cain, Bumgarner, Vogelson, Sanchez round out their rotation making Zito expendable. Meanwhile, their OF is pretty damn thin as I’m pretty sure they released Rowand.
I think the lynch pin(s) on this going down would be 1) Coco Crisp and/or 2) Brandon Belt.
The Giants have Huff signed for a couple more years and will likely give Posey quite a few starts at 1B which forces Brandon Belt into the OF if he’s on the big league roster. Belt and Torres make up 2 of 3 spots. The third in-house option is Shierholtz who hasn’t been very impressive which could make this trade make sense. Shiertholz is prob better off a 4th OF which means there would be a spot for Vernon out there. However, if the Giants sign Crisp they are probably good to go out there (good as in full, not good as in talented)… I’m rambling..
Anyhow, I would very much welcome this move. I’d honestly rather see Zito out there every 5th day than Chatwood or even Saunders, plus it frees up space for Trout. I’m on board.
Yes, that's the catch
Along with getting the teams to agree and all that. Don’t you think, though, that Vernon would welcome an opportunity to play in a place where the fans don’t hate him? And I would have to think a chump like Sabean would prefer a “center fielder” who can hit 20-30 HR’s like Wells to a fourth outfielder like Crisp.
Personally, I would be just fine with them splitting the difference in their salaries to get this thing done. Both guys would seem to be “change of scenery” candidates and as Brody said above, if Zito is awful then we simply cut him. The money’s been spent, after all and DiPoto has no stake in Wells succeeding.
I wouldn't go that far
Counting on Zito to be more than below average would be foolish. If this imagined trade came to fruition, I’d want to still see a fourth starter picked up. And if it’s someone like Wilson, pushing Santana to the 4th spot, even better. This would push Williams to the pen, giving us another long man with Bell, or one of those guys goes to AAA for depth.
I would not count on Zito to be average or anything else
But, if we had Weaver, Haren, Santana, Zito, Williams, Richards, Chatwood, and Bell, I personally would prefer not to spend any money on another starter. Could that rotation be improved? Absolutely. I would prefer, however, to spend the money on a bat — and also to acquire a cheap arm or two for the bullpen. As for the starting rotation, I would just go with whomever is healthy and pitching well at the time. DiPoto can reassess at the trade deadline.
Yeah, why go after a guy who only excels at one thing...
Killing baseballs
by Balls and Strikes on Nov 7, 2011 3:57 PM PST up reply actions
Another very cheap option could be Kevin Slowey
This Minnesota beat writer thinks there is a good chance Slowey is non-tendered by the Twinkies (http://atmlb.com/tphYoS) [all the way at the bottom].
Slowey pitched 60 innings this year in a hybrid starter/reliever role. He was rocked for a 6.67 ERA but that’s thanks to a .330 BABIP (.307 xBABIP) and an INSANELY low strand rate (58.3%). His FIP/xFIP/SIERA were 4.47 / 4.36 / 4.30.
His secondary stuff just wasn’t there this year resulting in career high contact rates allowed and career low swinging strikes/K-rate. A quick look at his PitchFX reveals his slider and curve ball were both very flat compared to previous years. I don’t have an answer to why but it’s hard for me to believe this 27 year old simply lost his “stuff.”
He’s relatively young, sports a career 6.67 K/9 and miniscule 1.42 BB/9 for a remarkable 4.70 K/BB (I’m biased towards K/BB… I HATE walks). In the two seasons he was a full-time starter he pitched about 155-160 innings and produced a 2.2 and 3 WAR seasons. Relatively nice upside for a guy that should come much cheaper than some of the other arms being considered.
Interesting proposal
These are the types of options I would prefer if we are to address pitching. Spend the money on the bat. I will say, however, that after watching Kazmir for parts of three seasons, I can believe that a “27 year old simply lost his ‘stuff.’”
It's possible...
But Kaz did show a 3-4 year decline in velocity which will usually affect the slider, not just the fastball. Kazmir without a devastating heater/slider combo is… well we know what he is. Kaz showed some signs he was heading in that direction (tho nobody could predict that severe of a drop off). I think what is important to note is that even though Slowey’s stuff was less impressive last year, he still should have been a low-mid 4 ERA guy. He wasn’t a total disaster out there as his ERA suggests.
I’m not saying to go out and sign him without working him out. But it’s a guy I would look into if I were in Jerry’s shoes. Could be a bargain.
I admit I have no idea what kind of contract Slowey could land on the open market so I’m putting myself out there for HH ridicule by saying this… But MLBTR predicts about $2.7MM in arbitration if the Twins go that route. If he is non-tendered let’s say the Halos offer him $10MM over 3 years… That’s a nice chunk of money for a guy coming off a 6.67 ERA, but from the Halos perspective, if he just gives them one season of 2 WAR he has earned his contract. The rest is gravy on top.
That's too much
If he is projected to get $2.7 million in arbitration and he is non-tendered, that should be the most that we offer.
by Brody on Nov 2, 2011 8:26 PM PDT via mobile up reply actions
Maybe..
But if he were tendered and put up a couple 2-3 WAR seasons he would make 4+ million in 2013 before hitting free agency at 29 and landing a decent multi-year deal. A three year deal would buy out his final year of arbitration and first year of free agency.
If all goes right, you get a 2-3 WAR starter for the next three seasons at $3.3MM/year.
If it doesn’t go right, Slowey really only needs to provide a total of 2 WAR over three seasons to “earn” his salary.
If Slowey completely flops and can’t produce at all (very unlikely, in my opinion) we wasted $10MM.
I like the idea of investing $3.3MM of ~$140MM per year in a guy that could very well provide 6-8 WAR. He could realistically outperform that contract threefold.
Pitching may not be enough
When you look at the Giants who are all pitching with little offense they were able to pull the world series and show when the pitching is good it can work. But look at the second half of last season for them. The pitching struggled and the team fell apart. Putting everything on getting just a few pitchers has shown it doesnt always work even with good pitching you need offense and last year our offense seemed to struggle at times when coming from behind.



































