Crappy Aprils By Splashy Newcomers
How does Vernon Wells' puketastic April compare to other first-month bed-soilings by other high-profile veteran acquisitions in Angels history? It's right the hell down there, that's how. The only comparable face-plant I could find was Lyman Bostock's infamous 1978. That said, the following list does contain seeds of hope. In chronological order, here's the first Angel March/Aprils of the following big-splash newcomers: Joe Adcock (1964), Bostock, Reggie Jackson (1982), Dave Parker (1991), Steve Finley (2005), and Vernon:
Yr Nm Ag G PA AB R H 2B HR RBI BB SO AVG OBP SLG OPS+
64 JA 36 11 39 34 1 7 1 0 5 4 3 .206 .282 .235 54
78 LB 27 19 82 75 10 11 3 0 8 5 4 .147 .200 .240 25
82 RJ 36 19 76 64 5 12 0 1 5 9 15 .188 .303 .234 54
91 DP 39 19 80 77 4 17 2 1 6 2 17 .221 .250 .312 63
05 SF 40 24 97 87 8 13 3 4 12 7 11 .149 .227 .322 47
11 VW 32 25 116 109 11 19 3 1 6 5 22 .174 .216 .248 32
Why is any list with Steve Finley and Dave Parker cause for anything but suicidal despair? Well, because those two stiffs were much older than the rest of the pack, 7 and 8 years grayer respectively than our $80 million man. And also, because the other three guys from May 1 onward in their bad-April years treated the baseball like Chuck Wepner's face. Particularly the 36-year-old Reginald Martinez Jackson:
Yr Nm G PA AB R H 2B HR RBI BB SO AVG OBP SLG OPS+ (est)
64 JA 107 376 332 38 91 12 21 59 44 58 .274 .359 .500 144
78 LB 128 555 493 64 157 21 5 63 54 32 .318 .385 .400 120
82 RJ 134 545 466 87 134 17 38 96 76 141 .288 .385 .573 155
91 DP 100 421 389 41 91 20 10 50 27 74 .234 .285 .368 80
05 SF 88 343 319 33 77 17 8 42 19 60 .241 .284 .389 74
Just a little perspective for you commies as you dance around the Maypole. It's been a brutal month, but Vernon won't stay this bad (knock on Wood).
This Fan-Post is authored by an independent fan. Tell us what you think and how you feel.
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Interesting Stats
ROFL laughing at the Judge Wapner comment, though I don’t know what you got against him.
I hope the ghost of Lyman Bostock pays advice to VW when we’re not looking. According to Wikipedia Lyman attempted to return his April salary to the team, but when the team refused to accept it, he donated to charity. That good karma had to have helped him alleviate his batting probs.
Chuck Wepner
if you’re too young, google him to get the reference. (i hate to see a good analogy trashed like that!) After a fight with Sonny Liston, he needed 120 sutures for his mug and his fight with Ali was the genesis of the movie Rocky. So maybe picture Rocky Balboa’’s face after the fight with Apollo Creed.
not the same as Judge Wapner!
thank you Rexy
for making feel old that I actually knew who Wepner was
Well, come see a fat old man some time!
Of the players listed
Adcock seems to be the most similar to Wells, though I can’t see Wells finishing that well, considering he has only two seasons in his career as good as Adcock’s ‘64. Due to his age and contract, he’s likely to play far more games than anyone else on that list, so I can’t pick any of the options. So where’s Gary Gaetti?
Gaetti, shockingly, didn't start out that bad
Neither did Fred Lynn in ’81 (check out his 2nd-half stats, though….). I maybe coulda added Junior Felix to the list, but the dude was only 23 & hardly an established slugger type.
Yeah, if I remember correctly
It was Gaetti’s 2nd season that he went into the dump (although his 1st season wasn’t so hot, either).
"There's nothing that cleanses your soul like getting the hell kicked out of you." - Woody Hayes
by johnnyangel101 on May 1, 2011 9:41 AM PDT up reply actions
The one major difference between Adcock and Reggie
is that they knew how to take a walk. Vernon has never been confused with Eddie Yost. And that lack of plate discipline is what’s hurting Wells.
That being said, I think Vernon will turn things around eventually. But if he keeps frustrating us at 200 AB’s, Sosh may have to rethink Wells’ position in the lineup. Right now, it’s ugly.
"There's nothing that cleanses your soul like getting the hell kicked out of you." - Woody Hayes
rethink it as in riding pine
particularly when Kendrys gets back and Trumbo is still raking
Well, come see a fat old man some time!
yeah he needs to drop
and stay there for awhile.
I know Scioscia isn’t wanting to put pressure on the kids and who’s to argue with the first month results, but seeing Bourjos bat first, with Conger/Trumbo moved up a few spots looks to be a promising optimal for 2011
As Horrific
as Wells has been, he’s actually been slightly better (on offense, anyway) than Carl Crawford, whose .155/.204/.227 line (OPS+ 19) compares unfavorably to Wells’ .174/.216/.248 (OPS+ 32).
His baserunning in the 8th today
was also the result of a savy veteran and won the game.
either that or he’s just slow too.
Wells made a good play to get himself into a run-down, which allowed the winning run to score.
But let’s not kid ourselves; Wells has been an albatross around the team’s neck so far.
A wise man does not need advice and a fool won't take it.
^ What he said ^
"If a woman has to choose between catching a fly ball and saving an infant's life, she will choose to save the infant's life without even considering if there are men on base." ~Dave Barry
it's more the fault of Zobrist
its an easy DP if Zobrist doesn’t do what’s also well established by HS. Wells did the right thing, but it wouldn’t matter if Zobrist has also done the most basic of defensive plays. I get upset at LL games when the IFs don’t think about the quicker force out and try to tag the runner.
@VernonWells:
You Sir, are no Reginald Martinez Jackson!
"If a woman has to choose between catching a fly ball and saving an infant's life, she will choose to save the infant's life without even considering if there are men on base." ~Dave Barry
It might help...
if Vernon decided to take a few more pitches. Out of 189 players who qualify for the batting title Vernon is second to last in regards to pitches per PA (3.11). He trails only the great Orlando Cabrera.
Ah, the Wizard of OC
He of the 60-some-odd game on-base streak. Baseball is a funny game.
Defending maligned chants since 2009
When Baseball Digest published their list of on-base streaks, they left out OC.
I wrote them to correct it, and my letter to the editor got published.
Angels baseball. We do what we must, because we can -- HaloDutch
As interesting as these sorts of comps are...
…they’re more historical curiosities than anything else. Vernon can’t really be compared to any of these players — the sampling is neither random or uniform. A fun parkour through Halo history, no question, but not something that should really give us false hope that Wells is going to rebound dramatically.
Jackson and Bostock obviously bear little in common to Wells as a player. Bostock is such an incomparable, and we’d be witnessing something truly phenomenal if Wells suddenly averaged 75 BBs a year and nearly 4 WAR a season, as Jackson did. Adcock is half a century ago, but I’m sure we’d be pleased enough if Wells put together a Rivera-esque .268/.352/.475 line like he did in ‘64. Of course that reasonably good season was sandwiched between two sub-.750 OPS seasons, so it wasn’t really an augur of future tendencies, unfortunately.
I do think we’re in uncharted territory here — Vernon has never had a start this poor. Perhaps we can learn more from the seasons where he started relatively poorly out of the gate. In 2005, he had a .191/.248/.372 (.620 OPS) exiting April, and rebounded with a .269/.320/.463/.783 line by the end of the season.
Alternatively, there’s only one other season in Wells’ career where he had an OPS under .500 over a month+ stretch. That was in Sept/Oct of 2007, and that was the season he delivered a .245/.304/.402 line, and that doesn’t seem improbable for his first season in Anaheim at this point. Especially given the fact that Wells delivered a .260/.311/.400 line just a year ago in 2009.
There’s a lot more proximate evidence that Wells will continue to be mediocre –– if not as poor as he has been thusfar –– through the rest of the season. I could easily see him repeating 2007 this year. There’s not a lot to contradict it.
If Wells only musters a 269/.320/.463/.783 line by the end of the season,
he has failed in my book, especially in light of his 26 million-dollar salary. You refer to that as a “rebound”; I would call it a ricochet.
A wise man does not need advice and a fool won't take it.
That line, although very unlikely, would be completely in line with his career numbers.
I don’t know why anyone would expect anything more. He was the most immovable player on the market, with the most preposterous salary in the Majors, given his value.
Halo fans should be praying for a .783 OPS at this point.
except your book means nothing.
LOL. Could you imagine if anyone on earth let you decide if they failed or not? Hahahaha…good one.
"We are not on an austerity program," Arte Moreno
so...................................................................................................
…he will turn it around?
I take it you don't have the DOV Secret Decoder Ring
You need to drink more ovaltine
-Quad Fin Rider
Here's another rub:
In 2005, Steve Finley’s annual salary was $6 million. In 2011, Wells is being paid over $26 million. Even adjusting for the inflationary salaries being paid to today’s top baseball talent, it’s disgusting how much of the money being paid to Wells is money NOT “Well”-spent.
A wise man does not need advice and a fool won't take it.
I take it Bahstin fans are railing on Crawford
as much if not more than we are on Wells?
(Considering how poorly they are doing overall)
He's getting his fair share
But it’s the pitching that’s really disappointed the Red Sox so far. Most of the fans I’ve talked to seem to think that Crawford has such a long time on his deal that they can afford to bury him in the lineup until he gets it going. They’re not looking over their shoulders every day to see Mike Napoli hitting another home run for a division rival.
Adam Dunn isn't doing much better
Although he hit a pinch hit HR today, he’s batting .171 with 31 Ks in 76 abs.
my fantasy team is well aware of how bad Chicago's offense has been outside of Paul Konerko
"I have one word for you...Be careful."
-Jose Guillen
Texas fans want Francisco back!
Napoli is spiraling fast. Justifying Crawford with that reasoning is credibility suicide. It’s OK that Crawford is sucking because they have him for a near decade and 142 million? Funny thing is the people on this site actually eat that shit up. Classic. Nice show…
"We are not on an austerity program," Arte Moreno
Excuse me
But I fucking live in Boston. My neighbors are Red Sox fans. My boss is a Red Sox fan. My coworkers are Red Sox fans. I listen to their talk radio. I see their evening news. I just went to their goddamn ballpark. It drives me insane, but you can’t so much as walk down the street in this town without stepping in it. Pardon me for saying that I know a little bit more about what the average Sox fan is thinking right now than you do over there in Vernon Wells’ publicity office. Face it, if the Angels had acquired Crawford rather than Wells, you’d be driving that bus instead.
by Suboptimal on May 2, 2011 9:02 PM PDT up reply actions 1 recs
I'm just saying...
their fans didn’t say hey it’s ok he’s not hitting because we have him for seven years. That’s foolish. But its true that fans of just about every team where the majority have been fans since before 2002 are puzzled about all of the big signings who aren’t hitting. We just got beat by a team with AG and CC being subpar. Their fans aren’t bitches, they’re hardcores; they’re not whiners and they wear their colors which say if you’re on the team, you’re family. It’s not because 4 years is a bad contract at 86, but extended three more years sucking is ok. This site is full of people with such a love for Mike Napoli that they have sacrificed honesty, reason, and their fanhood. I read a game thread on here where one of them was pissed that Napoli flied-out instead of homered against the Angels!. Read the game thread and the dude was so pissed, he never came back. Thats what I see: a bunch of full grown men and women having their entire perspective created by about 15 people who have less loyalty to the team than they do a former part-time utility catcher. Every single topic is linked to VWs contract and proof that TR sucks. Not to mention Napoli updates (which humorously have been missing as he dips below .240)
You’re right about one thing. I would never say a word about VW if he weren’t an Angel. I’d be in CC’s camp if he were.
"We are not on an austerity program," Arte Moreno
by thebigtizzle on May 2, 2011 11:37 PM PDT up reply actions
So glad we have you to tell us how to be fans
You must not have heard all the bitching I heard about Julio Lugo, or how much I still hear about JD Drew. Maybe you think John Lackey jerseys are selling out? Or that Daisuke Matsuzaka still has his own cheering section? Just because these guys put on red stockings, you think their hardcore fans love them to death?
Hell, no. These Massholes ran one of the greatest players in their franchise history right out of town. The guy who slugged them to two world championships. And this was before we knew about the steroids. Watch what they say about David Ortiz’s fat ass when he’s not going so well. They’d sooner take a shit on him than a lemon-scented toilet bowl. Even though they used to call him the “greatest clutch hitter ever,” it’s not even “what have you done for me lately?” it’s “what are you doing for right this goddamn second!”
We get it. You want to be the dominant voice here, but preaching will earn you nothing because baseball is not a cult. Most of us are free-thinking individuals who do this for fun. We’re not any different from other sports fans. Our loyalty is an accident of birth. You tell us what it means to be loyal, and yet you’ve probably never listened to WEEI the morning after Papelbon blows a save. Talk about bitch-ass chumps.
Guess what? We care, and caring also means getting mad, angry, or frustrated. If it seems like we do those things a lot, it’s because you just weren’t around a few years ago when things were really copacetic. So keep your squeaky-clean ideal cheer-leading fan to yourself, because he/she doesn’t exist anywhere outside your head.
by Suboptimal on May 3, 2011 12:02 AM PDT up reply actions 7 recs
You spend so much time time trying to give me that great oratory...
Telling me off is entertaining, but it doesn’t hide what you tried to do. In a conversation about how CC seems to be much more supported despite batting in the hundos you tried to make a bullshit argument that paying a guy 20m for 7 years who sucks was better than 4 years because he has more time to get better. Thats what I was calling out.
I am anything but a dominant voice here, if anything I stand alone every time. But I do know that many fans see my reason but are smart enough to avoid the Napoli Gang so they stick to themselves. There has never been a worse player in the history of online sports blogs to command the hatred of so many players and execs of one team. Ever.
I bet you’ll gladly and easily forget that long list of mega-million RedSux busts the next time you lead the mob against the GM of a team with one 20m guy. Before YOU became an Angels fan, we dreamed and begged for this. We know all too well how to build a solid team on a budget. We know you can win every now and then with total fiscal restraint. We’ve done it. As a fan base we sold our souls. Me, I love us either way. We wanted to know we were going to win the ALWest most years even if it took copying the team we spent our lives dissing for trying to buy championships. When you enter that world, you spend and you overspend. If you think you’re missing a piece, you drop dollar for it. Dice-K? Forget his contract. The Red Sox paid big money just to talk to the guy. They have a shitload of struggling players (by your own admission) and they’re in LAST PLACE. We have one who is overpaid and struggling and it’s all we talk about. We’re either men or mice. It’s the kind of move a team makes if that piece means alot to their gameplan, even if you and I wouldn’t do it.
Trying to ad hom me into isolation won’t make me ignore your attempts to be an authority on clear simple advocacies you have: 1) to prove that a GM in first place once AGAIN is intellectually substandard and should be fired, 2) convince us that we will finish in 3rd place unless we’re lucky, 3) convince people that 20m a year kills the teams financial flexibility, when nothing could be farther than the truth, and 4) continue to push the idea that Mike Napoli is one of the best Angels of all-time.
Every loss isn’t an indictment on a team so well put-together that their in first place despite all of the bells not ringing yet. Soon they’ll be clicking all at the same time. It’s a grind to be a fan too, it’s not microwave. Caring is good, passion is good. Trust me, I yell at every player when I’m there or watching it. But I don’t use that frustration to spread mistruths about the team and make my fellow fans more ignorant by telling them the ship has sunk because fatty is not on the team anymore or that somehow a GM with one of the best records in MLB history is somehow lacking intelligence because we lost a game.
Love is no excuse for abuse.
"We are not on an austerity program," Arte Moreno
I'll take on one of your points:
Trying to ad hom me into isolation won’t make me ignore your attempts to be an authority on clear simple advocacies you have: 1) to prove that a GM in first place once AGAIN is intellectually substandard and should be fired
The Angels are in first place today. Save your argument for September when we’ll have a better idea about Reagins’ intellect as it relates to the team overall. In the meantime (today), I can say, and you cannot dispute, that the money spent on Wells was outragious. Even if Wells bats .300 for the rest of the season, his contract remains an albatross around the team’s neck for the next four years, placed there directly by Reagins.
We could also talk about TR’s cavalier attitude about showing up on time for the Winter Meetings, his failure to sign other more productive talent, his player give-aways (trade/DFA for nothing in return), and many of the illogical/ignorant comments he has made to the media, especially this off-season. But I digress.
And saying “the team is in first place” doesn’t make everything okay. The Angels are 16-13. With a better GM, and a couple smarter acquisitions this past winter, the team might be 18-11, or 21-9. If you don’t study, take a test, and get an 85% is that okay, when you could have studied harder/smarter and gotten a 95%? Reagins is a ‘C’ student – the honor roll is not in his realm of capability – and concomitently, the coaching staff and the players have to make up for his deficiencies.
A wise man does not need advice and a fool won't take it.
by angelslogic on May 3, 2011 7:55 AM PDT up reply actions 1 recs
It doesn't work that way, though I don't disagree with all of this.
We can definitely say that our record should be better. Bullpen blowups and individual mistakes by players (including VW) cost us some games. That doesn’t reflect on TR. Getting the best relievers in the market and having infield depth, as well as signing a major player should prevent these things. I was more than annoyed about winter meetings and still feel Beltre was the guy we should have gotten, but I would have taken him and CC. When you become a big budget team, you are conceding there will be big money mistakes. That’s the price you pay. Having a team with only one underperforming big contract is not an albatross. Too many people are still using small market thinking to evaluate moves. TR has a unique perspective that says we can save millions by developing players and getting value until arbitration is over, with some of those savings we can add a big contract or two. No team with with a roster full of 440k a year players kicking ass and stars under arbitration, with a couple of guys in the big money bracket should even think about using the word albatross. It’s the big time. We just make ourselves look silly saying that one guy making 20m for only four years is crippling us, given the books of the 3 or 4 other big money clubs.
But TR will be judged on non-playoff seasons, building off of 2009 without signing Vlad, Lackey, Figgins, and Oliver; and how he handles Weaver, Morales, and future signings. Player development under him is proven out of this world given our current roster. The notion that he is anywhere near the hotseat is a myth that only persists on HH.
"We are not on an austerity program," Arte Moreno
by thebigtizzle on May 3, 2011 12:26 PM PDT up reply actions
Re: "When you become a big budget team, you are conceding there will be big money mistakes."
Sure, big budget teams make big budget mistakes. The point you’re missing is that trading for VW isn’t a mistake, it’s malpractice.
Pollyanna is dead. But don't get mad at me, I didn't kill her. Tony Reagins did.
by snowhor on May 3, 2011 1:11 PM PDT up reply actions 1 recs
Could be.
My point has always been that this will be determined at the endof the season. On it’s face, it’s not that automatic. I’m living through the same at bats you are, just with a different resolve.
If he ultimately fails at the above criteria, I will applaud his firing. All the other stuff is premature and BS. Trust me, I love the Angels more than anyone except my family, certainly more than TR or VW. It’s about the Angels.
"We are not on an austerity program," Arte Moreno
You don't need hindsight to know this was a bad deal.
The way he’s played certainly has made the deal look worse, but from the moment the trade was announced it was clear that TR traded value for something no one wanted for free.
Pollyanna is dead. But don't get mad at me, I didn't kill her. Tony Reagins did.
In professional sports, it's always about hindsight.
If it works, it’s genius. If Wells hits 6 home runs per month the rest of the way, trends towards 100 rbi, and raises his BA and doubles, it’s a win.
Every move is relative to the team. Was Pettit worth 16 million? To a big budget team that needed that experienced lefty for the playoffs he was. You can’t use static universal rules to evaluate decisions. My argument has been that within the office TR was asked how to get back to 2009 and not have a dead offense in the playoffs. he did a good job that season and probably got a pass for 2009. If his job was on the line he probably wanted a bat. If Arte wouldn’t pay Beltre, he went for Wells. He shouldn’t be fired for trading guys who won’t be in the league in 3 years. It should depend on whether or not we win the AL West and whether or not we have more than just the youngsters (who TR smartly uses to save money and run Soth’s gameplan) who dry up in the playoffs. He gambled that VW will make that difference. That is to be seen. That’s my point. Trust me, Arte was offended that people thought he was cheap and probably cheerleaded the idea since it was only 4 more years.
"We are not on an austerity program," Arte Moreno
I'd rather be thought of as cheap
than be thought of as a f***ing moron. But that’s just me.
"I too played shortstop for many years until I was struck down by Acne and Baby Fat" HST
by No Bologna Polonia on May 5, 2011 8:49 AM PDT up reply actions
Gee...
If Wells hits 6 home runs per month the rest of the way, trends towards 100 rbi, and raises his BA and doubles, it’s a win.
And a lucky “win”, because there aren’t – and weren’t – many reasons to believe he would do so.
It’s STILL not a smart decision! If Wells does hit those numbers this year (highly doubtful, no?), what about next year? And the year after? And the one after that?
It’s too much risk for too little reward – even if Wells finishes this year way better than he’s started it.
Taking unnecessary – and unwarranted risk – kills businesses. And baseball teams. And executives.
The job is to find the minimum risk for maximum upside. We ain’t getting it done. Taking stupid risk might work out okay from time to time, but not over the long haul.
"If a woman has to choose between catching a fly ball and saving an infant's life, she will choose to save the infant's life without even considering if there are men on base." ~Dave Barry
I agree.
I wouldn’t have done it. I just understand the reasoning. Risk/Reward language doesn’t fit as well when you add the concept of value and the endgame is something like winning a game. Teams pay for winning records. There are exceptions here and there, but consistent winning?
"We are not on an austerity program," Arte Moreno
Risk doesn't fit?
Risk/Reward language doesn’t fit as well when you add the concept of value and the endgame is something like winning a game. Teams pay for winning records.
No. With few and rare exceptions, the purpose for taking on risk is always the same: To win.
"If a woman has to choose between catching a fly ball and saving an infant's life, she will choose to save the infant's life without even considering if there are men on base." ~Dave Barry
So, if TR spent a portion of the team's payroll budget on lottery tickets, that would be a good decision if he hits the jackpot?
Pollyanna is dead. But don't get mad at me, I didn't kill her. Tony Reagins did.
by snowhor on May 5, 2011 11:27 AM PDT up reply actions 1 recs
I guess we'll just continue to disagree...
I get the prevailing viewpoint here. It’s just incompatible with how professional sports teams are ran. Isolating player value by OBP and SLG has value, but less in pro sports than it does in, say, fantasy sports. Plain and simple in the world of business a team that consists in large substance of Bourjos, Trumbo, Conger, Chatwood, Walden, (areas they didn’t have a need in offseason) is saving way more than 20m a year in value. Going out and getting what you think is a difference-maker to a team that could sputter due to youth in the playoffs isn’t bad on face. It’s a bet hedged by deep talent (that’s not a lottery ticket). It’s about value, not cost. Value is relative to each team. On this team, a potent bat, additional potential leadership/maturity, and a rare slugger who matches Sciosia’s taste for running bases, slapping doubles is worth $20m. If you win a championship with it, it’s a win. I see that coming together…
"We are not on an austerity program," Arte Moreno
How about just ignoring all stats and recognizing the market.
If they wanted Vernon Wells, they could have just had him for a very low level prospect and probably even received some salary relief from Toronto.
Tony should have known this, as he just ate $22m of the $24m owed to GMJ to play for the Mets. If he spent a little less time at Del Taco and maybe a little more time paying attention to the baseball world around him, maybe he wouldn’t look as completely incompetent as he is.
Pollyanna is dead. But don't get mad at me, I didn't kill her. Tony Reagins did.
That's fair.
Again, I wouldn’t have done the deal. Del Taco insult aside (as I’ve said if some other GM had done it, he’d be described as hip and eclectic), it’s clear they waived Napoli and got no value for him. Texas giving up Francisco will give us the division, and Toronto shed a contract, got JR, and a reliever, and will continue to rot in last place. I understand the thinking of the deal and it’s not incompetent. I just wouldn’t have done it.
"We are not on an austerity program," Arte Moreno
That's a common misconception. They didn't waive Napoli. They just offered him arbitration.
If they wanted to waive him and have no financial obligation to him, they could have done that instead of offering arbitration.
Pollyanna is dead. But don't get mad at me, I didn't kill her. Tony Reagins did.
The arbitration offer
gave Texas the assurance they needed that they were getting a player under control. In some places it’s called collusion. Shady, but it shows me it was premeditated. A free agent Napoli might be worth much more than 5.8m, Texas would have needed to see his response to our offer before considering the trade. To know he was going to Texas was an insult as close to waiving/releasing as you can get. Your point is he had value and I agree.
"We are not on an austerity program," Arte Moreno
Dude, of course it wasn't.
BUT IT WAS.
TR said Toronto wanted a reliever, we knew Ron liked Napoli from out Young discussions. Have you read anything on this trade? It was definitely a three team deal, unofficially.
"We are not on an austerity program," Arte Moreno
I have read a lot of this trade
Most of it your long winded bullshit.
I never saw TR say that Toronto was going to flip Naps to Texas for a reliever.
TOR is well within their rights to trade naps.
Reggie Willits: The non-tender candidate of my dreams.
OK Cool.
Well I saw the interview where he said he was “not surprised”.
I’m a democratic pundit. Taking shots and swearing at me is open to all, but I must insist on compatible cognitive complexity as a prerequisite. Look it up and supplement your HH baseball info before hot-boxing with the Tizzle.
"We are not on an austerity program," Arte Moreno
Translation
I use big words unnecessarily to try and validate my inane points, but make sure to follow it up with slang like “hot-boxing” so as not to lose street cred. I imagine it’s a tough line to walk, being a such a complete charlatan. SO many people to attempt to impress…
"I too played shortstop for many years until I was struck down by Acne and Baby Fat" HST
by No Bologna Polonia on May 5, 2011 6:28 PM PDT up reply actions
Nice response!
That was real cognitive and complex, genius. What happened? You leave your thesaurus at the bus stop?
"I too played shortstop for many years until I was struck down by Acne and Baby Fat" HST
by No Bologna Polonia on May 6, 2011 8:21 AM PDT up reply actions
C'mon, baloney...
surely you know the definition of cognitive and the definition of complex don’t tell the whole story about cognitive complexity. But you know what? I’m gonna give you one halo Buck of HH street cred for butting in. I know how much mythos liquid you’ve swallowed to believe that surely I must get my flow from a thesaurus and surely I must ride the bus, so with nothing to gain, I’ll let you believe it. If only you knew…
"We are not on an austerity program," Arte Moreno
by thebigtizzle on May 6, 2011 10:21 PM PDT up reply actions
Color me shocked
Another wildly successful internet poster… If only I knew how amazingly intelligent and fabulously wealthy you were. I’m sure the image I have of you sitting on your momma’s couch wearing house shoes and a dirty wife beater while coming up with new and exciting ways to verbally fellate Tony Reagins and Vernon Wells is way off. I mean, TONS of successful old guys say things like “haters” and reference their “flow”. Like…Snoop Dogg, for instance. Personally if I was in my 30’s and trying to use hip hop lingo to stay relevant I’d hop in the bath with a plugged in toaster and call it a day, but that’s just me. Of course, I’m a seething racist, so that would never happen.
"I too played shortstop for many years until I was struck down by Acne and Baby Fat" HST
by No Bologna Polonia on May 7, 2011 9:10 AM PDT up reply actions
gonna stay away from that one.
"We are not on an austerity program," Arte Moreno
by thebigtizzle on May 7, 2011 12:03 PM PDT up reply actions
"abuse"
Dude, so we are guilty of domestic violence now. I love your arguments.
I love this team.
by Downing Rules on May 3, 2011 10:18 AM PDT up reply actions
Keep shouting
One of these days, I’m sure that silent majority will rise up in defense of your unjustified assertions, confused hyperbole, and guilts by association.
You are obsessed with winning the crowd.
I could give a shit. I will concede to you the mind and soul of Halos Heaven. All i do is offer my perspective and my critique of bullshit arguments. I don’t need followers, I don’t need anyone to think I’m some kind of baseball guru. All i want to do is root and defend my team. My critique is against the fact that you have a an agenda, which I described. Sure, you’re very smart about how you do it, but you creep into every argument and try to link it to those agendas. Your explanation making CCs sucking somehow better than VWs was not smooth and very obvious. You’re lucky because the only person you lose credibility with is me. Practicing your english in response to me doesn’t shake my vision or ability to see what you’re doing. My fanhood is unshakable, my critical recognition and consciousness is on point, as we say where I come from, all the time.
"We are not on an austerity program," Arte Moreno
Actually, Suboptimal is probably the most rational of us fire Tony Reagins types.
Karmis and Rodney were enough to get me there, but if I recall correctly Subop waited for clear and convincing proof that TR is incompetent. TR is the one responsible for that, get mad at him, not Subop.
Pollyanna is dead. But don't get mad at me, I didn't kill her. Tony Reagins did.
You are obsessed with Mike Napoli
"I too played shortstop for many years until I was struck down by Acne and Baby Fat" HST
by No Bologna Polonia on May 4, 2011 11:33 AM PDT up reply actions
Agenda?
Check out my agenda the day of the Dan Haren deal. Or the night of the Crawford signing. I was pretty much the only one defending Tony Reagins (including his education and job qualifications). Unfortunately, I had to concede that argument to Turk when the Wells deal came through:
You win.
Tony Reagins is, beyond any reasonable doubt, an imbecile. I’m glad I didn’t bet on it, but I’d still insist on buying you a beer to assuage my own sense of humiliation.
by Suboptimal on Jan 21, 2011 7:55 PM EST
Oh, wait. You’re not talking about baseball. You meant a racial agenda. Well, allow me to remind you of this:
Racism is at least 50% responsible for the perception of GA as lazy and nonchalant. This does not mean that you’re a racist if you think that Garret Anderson didn’t care about his job. However, as participants in American society, we are all subject to common cultural associations with racial origins. The false image of the lazy black man is as old as America itself.
We can pretend that we’ve got beyond this in sports and in the media, but it’s just not true. I’ve lived on the East Coast for awhile now, and it is blatantly obvious that athletes get portrayed differently because of skin color, even more so than in California. Turn on WFAN some time they are taking calls about Luis Castillo or Carlos Beltran. It’s no accident that gritty "hustle guys" are almost always white.
Now Garret Anderson had a great baseball career and made lots of money doing it. He certainly hasn’t missed out on life in America. But the subjective perception of laziness is not something completely earned himself. If he were white, I doubt the issue would have dogged him throughout his entire career, and then into retirement. That problem is much bigger than he is.
by Suboptimal on Mar 3, 2011 1:02 AM EST
You can blow your accusations out your ass.
And I think you highlight a metamorphosis
a lot of us went through with regards to withholding “judgement” on the front office.
I was also “staying sunny” and rationalizing things a lot prior to the Wells trade . It’s not really fun or comfortable for me to think negatively about the Angels organization – so I mostly resisted it.
But the Wells trade ripped it. The way the Wells trade came down (and not that it was Wells) made it impossible to keep ignoring some facts: SOMEONE in this FO is horrifically incompetent at both the business of baseball AND at talent evaluation.
Having acknowledged the issue, I just want it fixed.
"If a woman has to choose between catching a fly ball and saving an infant's life, she will choose to save the infant's life without even considering if there are men on base." ~Dave Barry
How could you think that after the team's performance?
That front office built a championship team in 2009 and SOMEONE messed it up, and it wasn’t the front office. That was a world series winning team. The next year they had bad luck and slipped on a five year run. Can you explain how you landed on TR?
"We are not on an austerity program," Arte Moreno
I don't KNOW, with certainty, that it IS all TR
since, as we’ve discussed here ad nauseum, it is near impossible to know exactly who is calling the shots in this F.O.
I DO know that the very definition of “G.M.” includes ultimate responsibility for all player-personnel moves and budget management. This F.O. is bad at both.
If Arte is running the details (and I doubt it), I want him out of it – he needs to let baseball people make decisions.
If Sosh’s power has, in fact, grown to include control over these key decisions, I want HIS control rolled-back. He needs to be running the team on the field (without having to play some sub-standard dude to try and prove his “correctness” in having brought the guy to the team in the first place).
If either of the above are true, I want a new, stronger, smarter G.M. who will REFUSE to be a puppet (and who says less stupid things).
If TR IS running it, I want him gone – and I don’t even need a Theo Epstein “whiz kid” Sabermatrician replacement, just a smart, wily leader engaged in using ALL tools available – new and traditional.
"If a woman has to choose between catching a fly ball and saving an infant's life, she will choose to save the infant's life without even considering if there are men on base." ~Dave Barry
You know what?
I never ever thought for one second that your agenda was racist. If I thought it was, TRUST ME, I would say it. I absolutely do not think that. I think you believe he should be fired and that belief shades your view of the team, even when things go wrong.
I assume you’re getting this from the previous post. I’ll take responsibility for that. That was a situation that got out of hand. I made a comment about citizens/fans harassing VW outside of the stadium, otuside of the game and didn’t handle the responses well.
I never assumed that was your agenda. Not once.
"We are not on an austerity program," Arte Moreno
.240
Last time I checked one’s inability to make outs (OBP) and ability to hit for power (SLG) are far more relavant than batting average.
Napoli has his issues yet calling out his batting average is rather ineffective.
Agreed.
But when it was .500 that was all we heard about. I’m not disagreeing with that, I’m saying Napoli doesn’t fit the teams determined style of play. In my own world, I’m happy for Naps because he’s in a place that’s perfect for hi,. They’ll gladly take a guy 1/3 of the time whose a constant chance for a big home run, because with their mashers they can afford it. As an Angels fan, I sit back and smile because I know their lack of pitching will do them in. That’s all. I will always lose stat arguments, btw, though I rarely pass up a baseball debate.
"We are not on an austerity program," Arte Moreno
P R I C E L E S S
over there in Vernon Wells’ publicity office
I love this team.
by Downing Rules on May 3, 2011 10:15 AM PDT up reply actions
P R I C E L E S S
over there in Vernon Wells’ publicity office
I love this team.
by Downing Rules on May 3, 2011 10:15 AM PDT up reply actions 1 recs
P R I C E L E S S
over there in Vernon Wells’ publicity office
I love this team.
by Downing Rules on May 3, 2011 10:15 AM PDT up reply actions
wtf?
Sorry, but I thought it was a money quote.
I love this team.
by Downing Rules on May 3, 2011 10:19 AM PDT up reply actions
Agree. Rec'd the second one (and not the first or third) for no logical reason.
Pollyanna is dead. But don't get mad at me, I didn't kill her. Tony Reagins did.
for?
"We are not on an austerity program," Arte Moreno
by thebigtizzle on May 2, 2011 11:39 PM PDT up reply actions
Not sure if you said the claim about Texas fans in jest or not
But I can be relatively trusting of what Subop says about Boston fans because he lives in Boston. I cannot really trust your take on Texas fans because 1) You’ve mentioned what city you lived in before and 2) There are maybe 1 or 3 Rangers fans in that city.
And also, this little number:
Funny thing is the people on this site actually eat that shit up.and this one as well:
Thats what I see: a bunch of full grown men and women having their entire perspective created by about 15 people who have less loyalty to the team than they do a former part-time utility catcherare not going to really get many people to agree with you or take your side on HH.
The relative consensus on this site is not some sort of hard-on for Napoli—he just happened to be the opportunity cost to acquire Wells. Wells is sucking (even by his own admission), so it’s only natural to see what was lost/could have been. There has been only one guy on this site, by my count, that has rooted for Napoli at the expense of the Angels; this is probably because his Napoli fanhood is in his screen name.
The Angels have a pretty big post-2002 bandwagon, but don’t for a second think that the Red Sox do not have a bigger post-2004 bandwagon. And suggesting that people have sacrificed their fanhood on an Angels blog for Angels fans might be one of the most ridiculous things I have read in a while. People here are critical, passionate, emotional….one would maybe say fanatical? If you want sunshine blown up your ass, you’re on the wrong Angels site.
Nice finish.
I absolutely don’t expect to persuade anyone. All I offer is a basic call of bullshit. Trust me, I know who the Napoli fans are (by name) and they are absolutely the ones who direct the thinking. I don’t need smoke blown up my ass, but I’m not afraid to stand alone and call it how I see it. All; I was doing was telling him that to suggest that Boston fans are ok with Crawford underperforming because his contract is longer and they don’t have to monitor Mike Napoli’s huge success is bullshit. It’s either/or. Either they have five or six overpaid mega-million guys and we have a better management since we’re in first place with only one underperformer making 20m OR they are more understanding/patient with Crawford and we could also be more patient. Everything wrong with this team cannot point back to Tony shouldn’t have gotten rid of Mike Napoli…..but it does.
"We are not on an austerity program," Arte Moreno
I don't really have an opinion either way on all of this
Wells has been sucking. Carl Crawford has been sucking. They both make too much money and both provide decent arguments for capping player’s salaries in baseball. I could care less about Napoli except seeing Mathis trot out there most days is infuriating. Mathis’s abysmal talents plus Wells’s slow start, well it’s difficult not to wonder what could be. The Angels are in first, but they are still inconsistent; the talent on the squad should be performing better than it is. I don’t think these are real points of contention among anyone here. This all doesn’t point back to Reagins and the Wells acquisition, but it is definitely the elephant in the room at this point.
My only issue was calling people’s fandom here into question and saying Boston fans were more “hardcore.” West coast fans get a bad rep (not a lot of it deserved), and we shouldn’t be eating our own.
His best comp is himself
He’s a .277 / .327 / .470 career hitter, although that’s weighted toward the early part of his career and also inflated by his home ballpark. Just for the sake of argument, if he hits exactly that well for the rest of the season he’ll end up around .260 / .310 / .430 line, which wouldn’t be out of character with what he did in 2007 and 2009.
That seems really optimistic though. His strikeout and walk rates have deviated significantly from their career levels, and in the wrong direction. If you go back and look at the other tough months in his career you’ll see that he’s never had the same issues before. He’s swinging more often, missing more often, and grounding out or popping up more often. He’s not just having rotten luck; there is something different either in his approach at the plate or in his swing.
Jeff Sullivan’s web gaffe awhile back only diverted attention from the fact that his observation was fundamentally sound. Vernon Wells is not Vernon Wells right now, and so we’re left to wonder whether the problem is something fixable in his head or unavoidable in his body.
Maybe things will get better, but even I’m surprised that it only took one month of play to expose how inexcusably poor the Wells gambit was for Reagins and friends. I didn’t think we’d be having this conversation until next summer at the earliest.
by Suboptimal on May 1, 2011 4:39 PM PDT reply actions 1 recs
So you're saying he could be injured?
Because that’s what his problem’s were in 2007 and 2009.
You had me with everything except the 2007/2009 part. Something is definitely wrong with the guy, but he was clearly injured those two years. But, no, I have no explanation for what is going on now, either.
"There's nothing that cleanses your soul like getting the hell kicked out of you." - Woody Hayes
by johnnyangel101 on May 1, 2011 5:44 PM PDT up reply actions
Even if he isn't
I think it might do him, and the team, a world of good to put the guy on the 15-day DL with a strained flexor muscle and let him just chill, take some swings in Arizona, and then activate him when he’s eligible. I cannot believe that he is physically finished, unless he is truly hurt (in which case, the DL applies all the more); so, I have to believe that it’s all a mental thing at this point. Hit timing, and moreover, even his instincts, just seem all completely wrong.
He needs time off to get himself right, IMHO.
His injury history is contestable
Although I could have things mixed up, my recollection is that injuries were only speculated to have affected his game during those years. He wasn’t too hurt to play 307 games in 2007 and 2009. 2008 was the only season in which he was certifiably broken, but that was also the year he hit .300 / .343 / .496 in 108 games.
His poor performance in 2007 was blamed on a shoulder problem in spring training, but the story isn’t consistent with his monthly splits, which went from good to bad to mediocre. Same thing with his broken wrist in 2008. He was scorching hot from when he came off the DL in July until the end of the season, then started off 2009 doing well enough, and somehow his poor summer was due to a lingering wrist issue? In any case, his approach at the plate remained consistent with his established habits in both of those seasons. It’s not anymore.
After reading Lyle Spencer spin Jeff Mathis’s broken wrist into an excuse for a career of piss-poor performance, I’m extra skeptical about granting mulligans to players who may or may not be injured. That’s what the disabled list is supposed to sort out. I realize that it doesn’t always work out that way, but there’s so much variation in baseball that sometimes poor performance is not caused by any one thing.
Regarding 2009
Wells did have to have surgery in 11-09 to repair cartilage damage in his left wrist.
This is where you and I part ways Suboptimal
I agree that his hacktastic ways have hurt him, and that his plate discipline (or lack thereof) is a firmly established career-long fact. I agree that he has not/will not be worth anything close to what he is getting paid. I agree we should never have made The Trade – dumb misuse of resources.
However, I do believe that Wells was hurt in 2007 and 2009 and that those figures are not accurate representations of his skill level. He signed his big contract prior to 2007, and I’m sure he felt compelled to play through his injuries. Yes, 2008 he hit better, although again he was injured (can’t we give him credit for a solid performance in spite of injuries?). And then in 2009 the guy played with a cyst in his shoulder due to a torn labrum. I don’t know about you, but that just sounds like it would hurt. Pair that up with a bum wrist and, yes, his stats should have suffered.
That being said, he stinks right now. And the things he stinks at (K’s etc) are things he’s had problems with in the past. So there’s certainly cause to be concerned, although I still think it’s too early to be alarmed.
But using 2007/2009 just seems a bit of reach, especially for a guy like you that can build a pretty strong case even without those years.
"There's nothing that cleanses your soul like getting the hell kicked out of you." - Woody Hayes
by johnnyangel101 on May 2, 2011 10:18 AM PDT up reply actions
It's the inconsistency that doesn't work
You’re trying to have it both ways – blame the injuries for his poor play, yet claim that they didn’t affect him when he played well. If we’re trying to figure out the cause of his poor play, two different outcomes under similar circumstances don’t really help.
I’m not saying it didn’t happen that way, just that it’s completely inconsistent.
Defending maligned chants since 2009
Valid point
I am probably trying to have my cake and eat it, too. In the end, only Vernon knows how injured he was. Like many injuries, some aches and pains may have affected him more than others. You and I will never know.
To me, though, the case for Wells’ inconsistency can simply be laid out by pointing to 2004 and 2005 – OK years, but nothing special. ’07 and ’09 scream out “injured” to me, because they are so far below his other years. I can build a pretty good Mediocre Overrated Vernon case without even using 2007 and 2009.
As I’ve stated elsewhere, I’m not a Wells apologist. I don’t think he’s that great, but I also never saw him as the sinkhole he is currently.
Personally, I was on the “Carlos Beltran one year rental” bandwagon. sigh
"There's nothing that cleanses your soul like getting the hell kicked out of you." - Woody Hayes
by johnnyangel101 on May 2, 2011 1:56 PM PDT up reply actions
I don't deny that injuries could have played a role in his poor performance
But I don’t consider it as definitive either. As Gorbachev points out, it’s the inconsistency in his batting lines from month to month that makes for uncertain causation. Here are his monthly OPS splits from those three seasons:
2007: .910, .575, .675, .831, .705, .463
2008: .714, 1.041, .739, .838, 1.033, .855
2009: .810, .661, .605, .734, .749, .721
Can you tell just from looking at the numbers that he developed a shoulder issue before the start of 2007, and that it wasn’t resolved until after 2009? Or that the 1.033 OPS in August 2008 came immediately after his broken wrist?
I do believe that he was hurting, and I wouldn’t question the medical documentation, but my point is that health and performance do not necessarily translate straight across. Wells has always been known as a streaky hitter, which makes it really difficult to isolate a definite cause.
Just look at Mike Napoli’s monthly numbers in 2009: 1.009, .766, 1.002, .919, .696, .731. You might guess that he was playing injured down the stretch, but he actually had shoulder surgery before that season even started. My point is, there’s so much natural variation in baseball that it’s rarely justified to completely excuse a player’s performance based on a supposed injury.
Maybe
All good points. I don’t think I’ll ever completely agree with you, but I don’t care that much to worry about it.
I think his injuries hurt his performance. You don’t. That’s cool. And it’s an argument neither of us can ever win.
I think Wells is an OK, but overrated, player who isn’t worth anything near what he’s getting paid, and cost us dearly in talent in a horrible trade. That we do agree on…
"There's nothing that cleanses your soul like getting the hell kicked out of you." - Woody Hayes
by johnnyangel101 on May 2, 2011 2:04 PM PDT up reply actions
And yell loud tonight at Fenway
You ARE allowed to cheer if Vernon if he hits one out :)
"There's nothing that cleanses your soul like getting the hell kicked out of you." - Woody Hayes
by johnnyangel101 on May 2, 2011 2:42 PM PDT up reply actions
If he gives me a reason, believe me, I'll cheer
It’s such an oppressive environment to be a fan of the visiting team, and I feel like I’ve been publicly humiliated there by Angels losses so many times before, that I would love nothing better than to make a scene if a Sox pitcher serves up a cookie to the guy with the .458 OPS.
It happened!
Maybe I’m the key to Vernon’s success? That’s a heavy burden to bear.
It’s OK if you didn’t cheer, though – too little too late thanks to Takahashi and BB-Rod. And hitting a bomb off of Dan Wheeler doesn’t exactly constitute a slump buster.
"There's nothing that cleanses your soul like getting the hell kicked out of you." - Woody Hayes
by johnnyangel101 on May 2, 2011 9:31 PM PDT up reply actions
The air was all out of the sails by then
Although it was kind of funny, actually. I was pointing out to my wife Vernon’s habit of taking the first pitch, then immediately swinging at the second, no matter what it is. I said, “watch him hit this one out now that it doesn’t matter.” The guys in front thanked me for not calling one the previous time he had been up to bat.
Bottom line:
Just the fact you are talking about all those constant injuries year after year means that injuries are a part of Wells’ professional being. Injury years should be considered when evaluating his stats because they are a recurring part of him; they are the norm not an aberration.
A wise man does not need advice and a fool won't take it.
I just asked Victor Rojas who we thought was the most overpaid player in baseball.
His response was: “truly don’t care”.
Hee-hee
I've got nothing.
doucheydouche
…
really?
What do you need a fancy suit for, Charlie, you ain't got no job to wear it to.
i think victor would have answered your question not on a public forum
and over a few cervezas.
What do you need a fancy suit for, Charlie, you ain't got no job to wear it to.
No doubt.
He seems to always answer my questions, but only if they are of softball variety.
I can understand him not answering, considering Vernon Wells is on twitter too.
I've got nothing.
well, what reason does he have to care?
it’s a bit douchey to answer it like that. but he probably doesn’t care.
"I have one word for you...Be careful."
-Jose Guillen
Of course he wont stay this bad.
He will eventually put up Juan Rivera numbers.
What do you need a fancy suit for, Charlie, you ain't got no job to wear it to.
The salary, at this point is a red herring
It won’t really impact us this year (in the future it could keep us from doing things…oh well). I am concerned that he may have physically fallen off a cliff. I was of the opinion that hitters slowly declined and you could see things like W/K and declining OPS that indicated. But there’s always the exception to the rule. There’s no way he plays like this through 200 ABs without riding pine. I know that Scioscia is loyal to vets and all, but they’ll find some sort of phantom (Finley) injury to shut him down and give him a restart.
Well, come see a fat old man some time!
The BIG SPLASH will turn into a collage of Wood + Mathis + Quinlan + Rodney + ...
…(insert_craptastic_player_here) threads over the last few years all combined into one heaping pile of frustration, hate, and piss.
And that will just be for the first year of his faildom.
Strap in folks, because it’s gonna get that much more fun in years 2, 3, and 4.
And he aiiiiiiiiiiiin’t goin’ anywhere. No one will repeat the mistake Reagins made even at half the price.
Enjoy they highest paid Angel player in history. He should be bringing us a few championships!
…In the Best Comedy category.

Just heard a few reports the Obuma is supposed to give give a short speech later on an important subject...
…and I got all excited thinking that maybe the government stepped in and was going to consider this trade a national disaster and give some financial aid to the Angels!
It turns out that some dude out in them thar mountains out yonder died or something.
Ahh well.
Bin Laden is dead . . .
That man should have been killed years ago.
CALIFORNIA ANGELS . . . ANAHEIM DUCKS . . . CALIFORNIA GOLDEN BEARS
The problem is more than Wells.
Torii has yet to be the player he was even last year. In the absence of the veterans (in every sense of the word) stepping up, it is falling on the guys in the lineup that are still getting their legs under them, Bsaeball-wise at the top level of the sport. They are doing OK, but cannot do it all and thus are pressing to get something done leading them to have issues batting that would not exist potentially if they were asked to get singles only at each at bat.
In short, EVERYONE needs to step up so they all can do their part however large or small it may be .
"To Halowood - Avoid the Clap." - Jimmy Dugan
I read something on another site that made all my thoughts have a bit more clarity...
…and I’m 100% convinced that the Wells move (and others) is all on Soth.
Yeah, it’s hard to want to think it because it doesn’t bode well for the future, but it’s the only thing which makes logical sense. And I think one day the details will come out (in a book or otherwise).
Here is why:
1) Arte has consistently shown to be a hands-off owner and he has other business ventures besides the Angels. I think the man is VERY busy with a lot of things and doesn’t sit and home reading player evaluations on hundreds of players all the time.
He puts people in a position to manage his ventures and trusts them to do their jobs.
He might have to approve all trades, but he trusts what his people are telling him. As a result, I think he has NO hand in these horrid offseasons any more than any owner in baseball – he funds them.
2) Reagins, I think, was likely pushed for by Soth. We all know Soth pretty much has the run of the Angels and when you put in a GM with no experience, especially one from inside the organization, you know you’ll get little of any pushback, especially against what equates to a tenured manager.
Should Reagins still take the blame? Yep. It’s sad but it’s how it works.
3) I think somehow somewhere there needs to be made a strong push to get an aggressive, outside-of-the-organization GM with a STRONG backbone and experience who can push back on Soth and actually make proper, SMART baseball decisions and put Soth in his place and confine him to managing the team, something most of us think he can do a fairly ok job of.
Right now, I think the majority of the blame is on Soth.
But until one of those Torre books comes out, I won’t be able to gloat about it :/
Couldn't really argue you with you here
Mike Shanahan, er, Scioscia had a lot to do with GMJ (“I think he’s figured it out”) coming here. I’m sure Butcher via Scioscia had a lot to do with Kazmir, too.
In the way back of my mind, I still have a hunch that more money is exchanging hands from Toronto than has been let on. Everybody, from the top down on both sides, has been very coy and elusive with their comments about the salary relief. Only 2011 has been mentioned; first they said no money was exchanged, then they said $5MM. And not just the Angels; Toronto, too. I have no proof, just a hunch. (I could be completely wrong – that’s why I call it a hunch)
This still may not absolve Reagins of blame – he’s still a part of the machine. But, yes, I’ve always believed that this is much bigger than Tony alone. #14 wields a big stick in the organization.
Like you said, though, we may never know.
"There's nothing that cleanses your soul like getting the hell kicked out of you." - Woody Hayes
by johnnyangel101 on May 7, 2011 10:55 AM PDT up reply actions

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