Would You Consider Moving Mark Trumbo To The Cleanup Position?
by JeffJoiner on Jun 7, 2011 6:33 PM PDT
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PrintI know the knee-jerk response is "no way, he's a rookie and that's too much pressure to put on him." And, honestly, that thought has crossed my mind and led to this post. First let's take a look at why this keeps popping into my head as a possibly viable solution.
While sitting in the stands on Sunday, I saw Torii Hunter hit into his league leading 16th double play. He is already near his career average for GIDP and well onto his way of crushing his previous high of 23. Not only that, but his batting average of .230 and OPS+ of 97 are well below his career averages and a further drop than an additional year of age would be expected to bring. I think the drop in his production is due to the pressure he puts on himself when he bats cleanup.
How does a guy lead a league in GIDP? By pulling the ball and hitting it right to third or short. Over his career, Torii has been a much more prolific doubles hitter than home run guy (33 2B to 22 HRs as an Angel) and he is trying to re-invent himself into a power/pulling hitter with disastrous results. Moving him to his natural #5 spot might get more of the old, productive Torii back.
So, who could slide into cleanup? Bobby Abreu and Alberto Callaspo don't have enough pop, Russell Branyan is a windmill, and Vernon Wells was never intended for that spot.
That leaves Mark Trumbo. He leads all the Angels and all MLB rookies with 11 home runs, but he's not a one trick pony. He also has 11 doubles, is slugging .485 and has an OPS+ of 124. And, he's done half of that damage hitting in front of Jeff Mathis.
On Saturday, Trumbo was again intentionally walked with a runner on in a key situation so an opponnent could get to Mathis. That's three times so far this year. On Sunday, with Conger behind him he got two hits including a homer.
So, all in all, moving Mark Trumbo to cleanup would put our best power bat in that spot while possibly letting Torii ease up and play his game. Plus, having Hunter in the lineup behind him should provide him with a few better pitches to hit (and fewer IBBs) than with Mathis. Ordinarily, I would never envision a rookie batting cleanup, but desperate times call for desperate measures. What do you guys think?
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yes I would
but with Big Splash due back it won’t happen any time soon
"You realize that Ive been posting on AN since 07 on this name and I am one of the most rec'ed posters there right?" - Some douche named DFA from AN
You really need a veteran presence in the cleanup spot.
I’d hate to give that up just for someone who hits remarkably better.
Pollyanna is dead. But don't get mad at me, I didn't kill her. Tony Reagins did.
by snowhor on Jun 7, 2011 12:29 PM PDT up reply actions 4 recs
Not cleanup, but definitely higher in the order
I think Sosh’s thinking is multifaceted. He knows this team isn’t going to go far without production from Torii, Abreu, and Wells, so he is sticking with Torii and hoping he turns it around.
As for Trumbo, one wonders if he would fall into the same bad habits that Torii has trying to do too much out of the clean up spot and the risks are higher for a rookie.
With that said, I think if you look at a guy, what he can do, and what he has done and if he would be your clean up hitter, then the rookie status shouldn’t be used as a lead weight. I would love to see Trumbo hitting fifth in our lineup, adding some pop behind Torii and using Wells to in the sixth or seventh slot behind or in front of Kendrick/Callaspo.
The bigger question at this point, with Wells returning, is which infielder sits at this point. Two weeks ago, I would have said Callaspo without a doubt, now I am not so sure.
Sure, why not.
The team has been “stuck on stupid” all season, it’s worth trying anything to break the cycle.
by mustard_man on Jun 7, 2011 1:21 PM PDT reply actions 2 recs
I almost rec'd this
Then I remembered Mathis is only getting 50% of the starts at catcher now, Trumbo keeps getting to play 1st and Rodney was yanked as closer and then set-up man pretty quick.
The results couldn't be any worse than we have seen so far
give it a shot.
CONGER, CONGER, CONGER !!!
by steelgolf on Jun 7, 2011 1:28 PM PDT reply actions 1 recs
Consider? I would have done it already if I had the power to do so.
Scioscialist Party of America - Redistributing your defense since 2000.
by Commander_Nate on Jun 7, 2011 2:18 PM PDT reply actions 1 recs
If you check out the following website
It gives a resounding Yes!
(scroll down to the bottom of the page for “best lineups”)
I’m not sure I entered everyone’s figures correctly, but it looks right. Swap Conger for Mathis and it gets even better.
"There's nothing that cleanses your soul like getting the hell kicked out of you." - Woody Hayes
I filled out the initial simulation
Based on the most common lineups we’ve seen. But you can fill in whoever you want. Believe me, I would much rather see Hank than Jeff, too!
"There's nothing that cleanses your soul like getting the hell kicked out of you." - Woody Hayes
by johnnyangel101 on Jun 8, 2011 8:57 AM PDT up reply actions
Same website
Changed the numbers to use 2008-2010 numbers past 3 years avg taken from ESPN ( I also noticed just by eyeballing that Torii bats for his highest average throughout his career batting #4, this year being a deviation).
Trumbs or Howie
Anyone but Torii. He’s proven that he’s not the answer at cleanup. Moving him down to the 5th hole would probably help him too.
~ these atoms are liars
i'll agree to that!
"Thats no moon...its a space station."
by Daniel B. Morales on Jun 9, 2011 3:54 PM PDT up reply actions
Once Howie gets a hit again
move him to cleanup.
by WhatShouldIThrowToday? on Jun 7, 2011 3:28 PM PDT reply actions
Nice write up
If we are batting Torii 4th and he is falling flat on his face, then why the hell not mix it up and bat Trumbo 4th?
Yes, and Sosh should have at least tried Trumbo in the 4 hole a long time ago.
A wise man does not need advice and a fool won't take it.
by angelslogic on Jun 7, 2011 5:56 PM PDT reply actions 1 recs
How about batting that new kid Cron clean up?
I heard he’s got alot of grit.
by Bozo's1000son on Jun 7, 2011 6:44 PM PDT via mobile reply actions
Absolutely.
Trumbo batting cleanup is definitely worth a shot—I mean, we’re 30-32 at the moment. Anything that might change the rhythm is a definite plus.
"Erstad says he's got it, Erstad...MAKES THE CATCH! The Anaheim Angels are the champions of baseball!" - Rory Markas, October 27, 2002
by Of Maicer and Men on Jun 7, 2011 9:27 PM PDT reply actions
Poll: voted other
Mathis should clearly be the DH because he’s so Premium.
Angels baseball. We do what we must, because we can -- HaloDutch
No
i’d rather have him hit 20-25 HRs in the 6th position and gain that confidence factor and settle for where we’re headed for .500 than mess with him now.
I’d vote for Wells. Again, we’re headed for .500, and Wells is paid to be there – in order for us to have any chance, he HAS to perform like a clean-up hitter
good question though – its crossed my mind but if we’re going to start accelerating the young ones, I’d rather throw Trout into the OF and have him hit down the order too. That’d be the direction I’d move in to get more offense and take a chance on a rookie.
That's a good point.
K-Mo batted between 5th and 6th almost all of 2009, and smacked 34 homers as a result—in his first year of regular playing time. Same may work for Trumbo.
"Erstad says he's got it, Erstad...MAKES THE CATCH! The Anaheim Angels are the champions of baseball!" - Rory Markas, October 27, 2002
by Of Maicer and Men on Jun 9, 2011 9:37 PM PDT up reply actions
Thanks for the feedback
On the way home from the game, I listened to Angel talk and heard a caller make these same points in the same order. It could have been a coincidence, but I doubt it.
Of course I would...
considering ALBERTO CALLASPO is hitting cleanup for this team right now. I mean, my goodness, this is mind-boggling. He wouldn’t hit cleanup for a lot of California high school teams.
It is astounding how bad of a hitting team is. Pick a player, any player to hit cleanup.
My observation, which isn’t that astute, really, is that the team is entirely starved of left-handed batters for the middle of the order.
NA, #34 SP, LAA
Light up the Halo for Nick!
More Howie please...
Lineup Analysis ranks the Angels batting orders according to their current statistics
Analyzing this, in the top 30 lineups, Abreu is always 1st and Callaspo is always 9th. Amazing, considering Callaspo has been hitting 4th for LAA recently. It’s food for thought. Some of the limitations of this tool are: failure to consider speed and L/R splits. But considering the team is devoid of a decent LH bat, why should Soth care about L/R matchups when filling out his lineup card?
NA, #34 SP, LAA
Light up the Halo for Nick!
More Howie please...
If batting order mattered more in the actual outcome of the game,
I’d care more about this.
"If a woman has to choose between catching a fly ball and saving an infant's life, she will choose to save the infant's life without even considering if there are men on base." ~Dave Barry
You're sooooo right, we should keep batting Callaspo cleanup
NA, #34 SP, LAA
Light up the Halo for Nick!
More Howie please...
Scioscia is clueless when it comes to filling out a lineup these days...
Logically, your best power hitter is always your number 4 guy, your best OBP guy #3… A guy with some good bat control who doesn’t hit into many DPs #2, and, of course, your best speed guy batting leadoff… your number 5 guy should also have some sock… 6,7,8 & 9 should be hitters less skilled and go in descending order best to worst…
So logic states your 2011 Angels batting order should be something like:
1. Aybar :14 SB, .296 BA
2. Izturis : 6 SB, .291 BA, 3 GIDP
3. Abreu : .400 OBP, 2 HRs
4. Trumbo: 11 HR, .467 SLG
5. Kendrick: 7 HR, .490 SLG
6. Hunter: .238 BA, 8 HR, .383 SLG
7. Callaspo: .289 BA, 3 HR, .378 SLG
8. Wells: .179 BA, 4 HR, .291 SLG
9. Mathis: . 204 BA, 1 HR, .274 SLG
Then again, Scioscia proved just how poorly he could manage a team in his complete misuse of Mike Napoli the past couple of years… his lineup tonight (including benching the team’s BEST hitter to this point in 2011):
1. M. Izturis 2B
2.Hunter RF
3.Abreu LF
4.Wells CF
5.Callaspo 3B
6.Kendrick 1B
7.Aybar SS
8.Branyan DH
9.Mathis C
Hey, at least he got Abreu and Mathis in the right spots… that’s 22% correct, Mr. Scioscia! I rest my case!
...only God knows why...
by JC91362 on Jun 11, 2011 8:35 PM PDT reply actions 1 recs
The Aybar leadoff experiment has been attempted and failed miserably.
The fact is, the guy can’t take a pitch. In his 3 years as a starter, he has 3.48, 3.49 and 3.44 pitches per plate appearance. 3.49 was last year when he spent an appreciable amount of time hitting out of the leadoff spot and it was the 14th worst total for starters in all of baseball. Not exactly what you want out of a leadoff hitter.
jc I agree
its bad when he has Maicer, Ayber or Callaspo hitting third. Cant stand it. No other manager in baseball would have any one of these three players hitting third.
by Ca1IFORNIA ANGELS on Jun 16, 2011 1:05 AM PDT up reply actions
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